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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


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Contents:
  Re.Natural Gas Burners ("Pete Calinski")
  Steeped Carapils? ("Williams, Rowan")
  Re: Natural Gas Burners (Jeremy Bergsman)
  Re: Topical Iodine for Sanitizing (The Grant Family)
  RE: Erlenmeyer Flasks ("David Houseman")
  RE: Erlenmeyer Flasks (Bob Barrett)
  Yeast Bank Vials ("Stovall, Chris")
  Re: Natural gas burners (Dan Fink)
  Natural gas burners (3rbecks)
  Methylene Blue (Signalbox Brewery)
  re: Natural Gas Burners ("Mike Sharp")
  Re: Pressure Gauges ("Mike Sharp")
  Re: Natural Gas Burners (Kent Fletcher)


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Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 22:46:02 -0400
From: "Pete Calinski" <pjcalinski at adelphia.net>
Subject: Re.Natural Gas Burners

Well, needless to say, you could do some damage but....

I know of two cases where it was done.  I had a Ducane (piece of junk)
grill.  Ducane told me to enlarge the gas orifice.  They gave me the drill
size for the BTU of my burner.  I don't remember either any more but I do
remember that the NG size was three drill sizes larger than the propane
orifice.  For example, if the propane orifice was a #50 drill size, I
drilled it out using a #47 bit.

My son has a Weber.  When he converted, he had to buy a new manifold, ~$30.
I was going to drill his out but the propane orifice on the Weber was
smaller than any drill bit I had and so I couldn't measure what the propane
size was thus I didn't know what size to drill it to.

Hope this helps.

Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY

http://hbd.org/pcalinsk


***********************************************************
*My goal:
*      Go through life and never drink the same beer twice.
*     (As long as it doesn't mean I have to skip a beer.)
***********************************************************



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Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:58:21 +1000 
From: "Williams, Rowan" <Rowan.Williams at ag.gov.au>
Subject: Steeped Carapils?

Hi folks,
I did a HBD search and came up with inconclusive advice, hence this
question.

I understand that Weyermann Carapils/Carafoam, unlike the Briess variety,
can be steeped or mashed.  I was thinking of steeping 400g for a Czech Pils
this weekend.  I will be doing a partial mash so I cannot fit the carapils
in the mini esky, otherwise I would have mashed it in with the rest of the
grains.

Has anyone had bad results with steeped Weyermann Carapils?

Cheers, 
Rowan Williams 
Canberra Brewers Club 
[9588.6, 261.5] AR (statute miles)
 

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Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 23:45:52 -0400
From: Jeremy Bergsman <jeremy at bergsman.org>
Subject: Re: Natural Gas Burners

Eric Schoville asks:

> Is it possible to convert a Cajun cooker style propane burner to use 
> natural gas?  I have bought a house with a convenient gas line in the 
> garage.  Any feedback would be appreciated.

Here's a post I made a couple years back:

> Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 01:14:05 -0800
> From: Jeremy Bergsman <jeremybb at stanford.edu>
> Subject: Propane 2 NG conversion
> 
> I recently bought a burner from Metal Fusion.  They only sell them with
> propane jets, but I want to use natural gas.  Searching the archives, I
> found a couple of numbers for jet size: propane=.0625", NG=.11".  Well,
> this jet is clearly less than .04".  Hooked up to NG, it made a 1" tall
> dense ring of blue flame.  I drilled it out to 1/16 (i.e. .0625) and it
> made a 2-3" tall blue flame.  I then drilled it out to 5/64 (i.e.
>  .078").  It now makes a 3-4" tall blue flame with wispy blue flames
> rising several inches above the dense flame area.  By visual comparison
> to my 12500 BTU/hr kitchen stove I'd guess this is 20-30K BTU/hr.  At
> all the sizes the flame was essentially all blue no matter how the air
> intake was adjusted.  
> 
> I'll take all the heat I can get, but I don't want to go too far.  (If
> you see what I'm saying!)  Before starting I had intended to drill it to
>  .11", but now I am doubting the size info I have read.  What sayeth ye
> all?  Should I drill again?


And here was a summary of replies:
> I asked a few digests back about whether to believe the numbers I
> had read in the digest about jet orifice size for these two gasses.
> Here are the responses I've received, with their predicted answers:
> 
> *************************
> If it was me, I'd buy a second jet and drill it until I got what looked
> to be an oversized hole.  Then drill the first one just one size
> smaller.
> 
> [I like this suggestion the best, even though it costs money--JB]
> *************************
> I would go by the ratio of sizes not the absolute - remember that the
> jet and burner go together and different burners will use different jet
> sizes.   Only open up the jet to the same ratio.  i.e.:
> 
>  .0625         what you started with (.04?)
> - ----------  =  -----------------------------------------
>  .11             what you should end up with
> 
> [Should this be the ratio of their areas? In either case it's
>  .062", assuming .035 starting diameter--JB]
> 
> *************************
> To run a
> Methane (NG) burner with a #60 (.040) jet on Propane (LP) it would
> require a #72 (.025) jet. The approximate ratio is the Natural Gas jet
> is 1.6 times bigger than the Propane (LP jet*1.6 = NG jet or 
> LP jet/1.6 = NG jet)
> 
> [This works out to .056"--JB]
> 
> *************************
> [From the guy's gas company, edited-JB]
> Our NG is regulated to 7" of water (~.25 PSI?).  To get 100kbtu, use a #22
> bit.  But anything over 40 kbtu should have a separate regulator.  Use a
> 3.5" regulator and a #15 bit to drill the orifice block.
> 
> [According to the Grainger catalog, #22=.157", #15=.180" But I thought
> NG was .5 PSI, so maybe this guy's is low and so I should be using a
> smaller hole?--JB]
> 
> Anyway, if you end up overdrilling the orifice, couldn't
> you just limit the gas via a valve between the house and the burner?  
> 
> *************************
> So, I've already gone to .078 and the flame keeps getting bigger.  The 
> suggestions I've received are .056, .062, .11 (archives), and .157.  
> Sounds like the first approach wins, unless I hear something definitive
> soon.  
> 
> Thanks to:
> Richard Seyler, RooJahMon, Owen A. King, and Ray Kruse

I left it where it was and have been happy with it.
- -- 
Jeremy Bergsman
jeremy at bergsman.org
http://www.bergsman.org/jeremy



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Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 15:06:29 +1000
From: The Grant Family <grants at netspace.net.au>
Subject: Re: Topical Iodine for Sanitizing

Eric wrote:
>Those will present the same types of issues
>that you'll get if you use dishwashing soap for cleaning
>(head retention issues, possible flavor from residue, etc.).

Whoa, hang on there. I use automatic dishwasher powder (active: sodium 
percarbonate) almost exclusively as a cleaner. I haven't heard of this 
before BUT I do have a batch which has nasty tannins which don't have an 
obvious cause in the brewing process. Could you explain about off-flavours 
from percarbonate further?

By the way, I'm in Australia so maybe our dishwashing powder is different. 
We generally use a percarbonate-based powder plus a "rinse aid" - which is 
what I always thought left a residue. Needless to say, I don't use rinse 
aid in any of my cleaning or on any of my glassware.

Any advice helpful.
Cheers
Stuart Grant
Hobart, Tasmania, Australia. 



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Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 07:19:21 -0400
From: "David Houseman" <david.houseman at verizon.net>
Subject: RE: Erlenmeyer Flasks

One point of using these flasks on the stove: They can sit directly on a gas
flame.  But on an electric element, a diffusion ring should be used because
the uneven heating of the electric element can cause uneven heating stresses
on the glass and cause it to crack.  I used a ring used for heating glass
coffee pots on electric elements.  Worked fine.

David Houseman



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Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 07:55:23 -0400
From: Bob Barrett <bob.barrett at gmail.com>
Subject: RE: Erlenmeyer Flasks

Peter Beauregard wanted to know about using an erlenmeyer flask on
electric stoves.

I have used an erlenmeyer on electric stoves for years.  The one trick
I use to keep the wort from scorching on the bottom of the flask is to
use a wire trivet on the burner between the burner and the flask.  The
wire is about 1/16 inch thick and it holds the flask off the burner
enough so there is no scorching, but gets the wort to a boil fairly
quickly.  Just place the trivet on the burner and place the flask on
the trivet.  They cost about a buck.  I have made my own, when I
misplaced the one I had.  Just took a piece of copper wire from some
romex and formed it into the shape of a cloverleaf.  That's my $0.02.

- -- 
We Make the Beer We Drink!!!
Bob Barrett 
About 1/2 mile from the center of the brewing universe!
It gets kind of rocky sometimes!!!!



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Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:04:28 -0400
From: "Stovall, Chris" <stovall.c at thomas-hutton.com>
Subject: Yeast Bank Vials

Our homebrew club is looking at starting a yeast bank.  Anybody have a
good location for buying vials (a la White Labs) in quantity (say
100-200)?  Or another idea for keeping?  In the past I've just kept a
strain or two going in a beer bottle but looking for something easier
(smaller) to maintain in large quantity.

Chris



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Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 08:29:37 -0700
From: Dan Fink <danbob at direcway.com>
Subject: Re: Natural gas burners

You might first see if the manufacturer will sell you a replacement 
orifice end cap for NG.

Propane to Natural Gas is the easy conversion, since you simply have to 
make the orifice bigger. To convert NG to Propane, you have to braze 
shut or replace the brass end cap on the cajun cooker and re-drill.

The orifice drill size depends on BTUs. See:
http://grillparts.com/howto/btu_guide.htm

Use a vise and drill press to expand the orifice to the right size....if 
you wobble with a hand drill, it will be effectively larger than you want.

Disclaimer--use caution. Don't blame me if you get it wrong and blow 
yourself up! ;~)

DANF


> 
> Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 13:20:28 -0500
> From: Eric Schoville <eric at schoville.com>
> Subject: Natural Gas Burners
> 
> Is it possible to convert a Cajun cooker style propane burner to use 
> natural gas?  I have bought a house with a convenient gas line in the 
> garage.  Any feedback would be appreciated.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Eric Schoville
> Madison, Wisconsin
> 
>


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Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:50:10 -0500
From: <3rbecks at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Natural gas burners

Yes, it's very possible to convert propane burners to natural gas. The 
orifice must be enlarged. I don't remember the exact drill bit size, but you 
can check the archives of the public HBD board. I know it's been discussed 
several times in the last couple of years. I finally got it done about 8 
years ago through a local propane company, but most of the propane people 
don't want to mess with it due to liability.
Rob Beck
Kansas City 




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Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 18:16:39 +0100
From: Signalbox Brewery <signalbox.brewery at ntlworld.com>
Subject: Methylene Blue

Can somebody help please?

What is its shelf life in the fridge?

What is the failure mode?? Does it show healthy cells to be dead or dead 
ones to be healthy?

David Edge



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Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:37:27 -0700
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com>
Subject: re: Natural Gas Burners

Eric asks:

"Is it possible to convert a Cajun cooker style propane burner to use
natural gas?"

Not really.  The Cajun cooker style burner runs at higher pressure.  You
need a low pressure natural gas burner such as the ones B3 sells:

http://www.morebeer.com/product.html?product_id=17248

They even make one that goes to 200,000 BTU (and they're honest BTUs--A ring
burner rated at 170K BTU consumes 170K BTU of propane, but doesn't
necessarily produce 170K BTU of heat).

The individual jets work great on natural gas.  You can buy the jets
individually elsewhere, but they need to be mounted in pairs so the flames
impinge on each other.

Regards,
Mike Sharp



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Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:52:42 -0700
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Pressure Gauges

Jeff asks about Pressure Gauges

"I have gone through 3 low side pressure gauges in as many years."

I'd bet the problem lies with the regulator.  There's no way you should be
able to blow out the low pressure gauge by simply adjusting the regulator
(assuming the gauge handles the full range of the regulator).  If you don't
have a check valve, you can get backflow into the regulator, which will gum
it up.  If it's sticky, it may chatter as the gas flows, which can cause
high pressure spikes to pass through.   The regulator can probably be
rebuilt (I've had mine rebuilt by my LHBS, Larry's Brewing).  You get a new
diaphragm, needle, seat, and probably a new seal, possibly a new spring.

If you turn the main gas valve off, it's a good idea to run the regulator
adjustment screw out, so the regulator needle valve is closed against the
seat.  That way, the regulator isn't wide open when you open the tank valve.
I've never had a gauge fail by opening the gas valve, though.  

In order to check accuracy, there are a few tools out there.  I have a dead
weight tester (which is a primary pressure standard), and a Heise field
gauge that can be used for calibration. The Heise gauge is just a very high
accuracy version of your low pressure gauge, and is used for quick field
calibrations.  The dead weight tester is a hydraulic instrument with a set
of fixed weights.  It's only used in the lab (because it weighs almost a
hundred pounds) to calibrate pressure instruments. 

Do you live in the Seattle area?

Regards,
Mike Sharp


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Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 16:06:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kent Fletcher <fletcherhomebrew at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Natural Gas Burners

Eric Schoville wants to know if it's possible to
convert a Cajun Cooker style propane burner to Natural
Gas.

The short answer is yes, but you won't be happy with
it.  The Metal Fusion burner that is common to many
turkey cookers operates at much higher pressure than
NG, something on the order or 20-30 times higher.  It
is possible to connect the burner to a NG line and to
replace the fuel metering orifice with one sized for
NG, and you'll wind up with a burner with about 20
kbtu/hr output, with incomplete combustion (which
leads to sooting and Carbon Monoxide issues). If you
drill the orifice out yourself, the results will be
even worse.  The casting is just not made to
efficiently burn NG, which is supplied at ~4 inches
water column, or about 0.14 psi.  Spend a little money
and buy a good multi-jet ring burner.  I've bought
several from The Grill Store and more, their model
7542, at:
http://www.thegrillstoreandmore.com/burners.asp
No problem maintainging a rolling boil on a 1 Barrel
kettle (see http://tinyurl.com/8m8ms for some pics).

Kent Fletcher
Brewing in So Cal



		


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