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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  re: Carapils, Dextrins, Mouthfeel (SteveA)
  I'm looking for 6oz cappable bottle supplier (Doug Brown)
  dextrins,ciao ("PAUL SMITH")
  RE: Bernzomatic Cylinder (Steven Parfitt)
  CALIFORNIA STATE FAIR (Kevin)
  Propane bottles ("A.J deLange")
  Re: Bernzomatic Cylinder (Dylan Tack)
  ETBHC is nearly here (Scott and Cherie Stihler)
  RE: Bernzomatic Cylinder ("D. Hopf")
  BJCP on fruit lambic (Dylan Tack)
  RE: Bernzomatic Cylinder ("Mark Prior")
  On Spruce Ale (Rod Prather)


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Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 04:35:27 -0400
From: SteveA <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: re: Carapils, Dextrins, Mouthfeel

Paul Smith writes,

>Years ago, Dave Burley and I exchanged a number of posts on mashing 
>regimens, dextrin content, and mouthfeel.  I was wrong, and Dave, I believe, 
>was right.  Beers rich in dextrin content do not appear to be significantly 
>higher in mouthfeel, for a host of reasons.  Firstly, the perception 
>threshold appears to be above that which dextrins alone contribute - i.e., 
>an increase in dextrins will not likely lead to an increase in perceived 
>mouthfeel as the mouthfeel threshold exceeds the molecular weight of 
>dextrins.  Additionally, pure viscosity may not have much utility in 
>determining mouthfeel (Malting & Brewing Science, V. 2, pg. 840).
>  
>

I have NEVER read of any molecular weight relationship to dextrins wrt 
mouthfeel (and I read a lot).   I think that deserves an explanation.  
Also I don't think you appreciate that a well attenuated beer may have 
1P or less of unfermentable dextrins and a low attenuation 15P beer may 
have 5P of residual dextrins.   You can't sense 5P of dextrins readily.  
Your reference to M&BS simply states that evidence for a relation 
between viscosity and mouthfeel isn't(wasn't) available.  Sadly 
mouthfeel, or palatefullness or whatever you choose to call it is still 
not very well studied.

I don't understand the idea that dextrin level doesn't impact 
mouthfeel.  It certainly does impact mouthfeel and it's easily 
demonstrated.  Go compare the mouthfeel of any lite-lager beer against 
it's non-lite counterpart and then against something like a light 
colored  german festbier.  There is an increasing level of a mouthfeel 
sensation I'd call "thick" ("syrupy", "body" and "fullness" are 
descriptive for this, but I wouldn't equate this directly to viscosity)  
with the increased residual dextrin levels.  Thick mouthfeel sensation 
can be masked to a degree with higher carbonation levels and are more 
pronounced at lower carbonation level.  I don't like var y"thick" body 
character much and it has no place in session beers IMO.   Anything more 
dextrinous than a festbier is usually a once-per-session drink for me.  
Of course in addition to lite beers any highly attenuated (therefore low 
dextrin) beer will  have thinner mouthfeel (Guinness, Newcastle brown, 
bass for example).  If you can't detect the syrupy thick mouthfeel on 
your tongue you'll certainly notice the heavy feeling on your stomach 
after a few.  Also note that all beers have considerable amounts of 
residual dextrins.  A highly attenuated (80% apparent atten) beer still 
contains roughly 12% of the original OG as residual dextrins, but it's 
much higher, about 21% of  OG for a 70% apparent attenuation beer.

Of course this syrupy thick mouthfeel  isn't the only factor.   The 
combination of proteins, glycoprotein, CO2 and other factors which 
produces surface foam also impact mouthfeel greatly and in complex 
ways.  Weizens are medium/low dextrin beers with high levels of these 
foam causing agents, and also high CO2 levels  and weizens have very 
high levels of a sort of mouthfeel I'd call "protein mouthfeel" somewhat 
similar to a malted-milk drink.  The alcohol &  attenuation levels of 
weizens are similar to light lagers but the mouthfeel is night-and-day 
different.   Also a high CO2 "tingle" mouthfeel.

Glucans can have dramatic and odd impact on mouthfeel.   I overmashed 
some rye once and the wort and even beer had an odd oily -thick texture, 
(wort even felt oily to the touch) which I believe is from certain 
beta-glucans.  Beer contains very considerable amount of glycerin which 
may arguably impact mouthfeel.   Polyphenol astringency is also a 
mouthfeel and not a flavor component.  Beer has almost no free oils, but 
oddly the levels of oils in coffee are the primary contributor to it's 
"body" or mouthfeel which is not unlike protein mouthfeel.

>Going all the way back to DeClerck, who conducted experiments on 
>dextrin-rich worts, he found that those rich in dextrins actually lacked 
>mouthfeel. (DeClerck, Textbook of Brewing, V. 1, pg. 262), and the common 
>denominator seems to be other components besides dextrins - principally 
>proteins or protein degradation products, b-glucans, and so on, including 
>alcohol itself - dextrin rich beers, having a lower attenuation, may have a 
>perceived lower viscosity. (Ibid).
>  
>

Sorry but  I don't accept that "viscous" is synonymous with beer 
mouthfeel as DeClerck seems to imply.  There are other factors.  Note 
that larger proteins, increased viscosity and  isohumulones are all 
quite foam positive and alcohol, FAN, small peptides and especially 
alcohol are foam negative - then reflect on the relation between foam 
and "proteinaceous" mouthfeel.

>I have found that my mashes conducted solely at 158F result in a beer less 
>satisfying than those where I begin at 146-149F and ramp up over time.  My 
>experience only.
>  
>

I agree with Paul's mashing preferences, but it's a matter of personal 
taste.   Although there is considerable proteolysis at both these  temp 
ranges we expect less at 158F.  Probably the larger difference is in the 
creation of more unfermentable dextrins at 158F.   In M&BS, (see HALL 
data pp 289, also reproduced in one of the G.Fix books) can be 
interpolating/extrapolating to show about a 50% increase in residual 
dextrins and a 25% -ish type reduction in total nitrogen (protein)  at 
the higher temp(158F).   Maybe Paul's taste and mine overlap - in that 
the we prefer the less dextrinous more proteinaceous mouthfeel impact 
from the lower temp mash.

 -S



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Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 04:18:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Adelsberger <fuzzydodads at yahoo.com>

Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:18:17 -0400
From: Doug Brown <dbrown at prologic-inc.com>
Subject: I'm looking for 6oz cappable bottle supplier

I have six 6oz Corona Lite bottles that work well for
bottling samples.  
I do not remember where I purchased these from
originally, or if they 
are still produced.  I am trying to find these, or
possibly unmarked 
brown/green 6 oz beer bottles that I can use for beer
samples.  I did 
find a green 6oz bottle at morebeer but the bottom is
a champaign 
bottom, flat is preferrable.  Does anybody know of a
supplier that 
carries these?

  Thanks
  Doug Brown

Heinikein (sp?) also offers 6oz. bottles, they even
include a sample of what skunked beer tastes like. My
wife thought she liked heiniken at one point and
bought a six pack (I think she just thought the tiny
heinies were cute...) that I now use for carbonation
testing to tell when a beer is carbonated enough to
drink. I store my beer in the basement and it tends to
take more then the usual 7 days.

J Adelsberger


		


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Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 07:17:53 -0400
From: "PAUL SMITH" <pksmith_morin1 at msn.com>
Subject: dextrins,ciao

Steve A sent a PM my way (and, I presume a post this day on HBD) regarding 
my post on dextrins and mouthfeel. I'd suggest if anyone have an interest in 
this, they revisit the dialogues between myself and Dave Burley in January 
of 2000 on the subject.

Cheers,

Paul Smith 


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Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 05:13:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: Steven Parfitt <thegimp98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Bernzomatic Cylinder

Mark Prior" Querries:
>Has anyone ever tried to create a small, portable CO2
>tank by back filling an old Bernzomatic cylinder?  

NO!

>Are there any significant risks?

YES!

The Berezomatic cylinders are light gauge stamped
steel and are not designed for near 600PSI from CO2.

I use a 9 oz Paintball cylinder. There are special
braided SS lines for handling liquid CO2. All of the
fittings are 'off the shelf'. 

You will need a CO2 Transfer Valve (assembly) to fill
the tank with. THe Transfer Valve is available from
PaintBall gun suppliers.

I got mine from my son when he got tired of playing
PaintBall. It is similar to this one:

http://rap4.com/os/product_info.php/products_id/228

I also have a 5# and a 20# cylinder. I get the 20#
cylinder filled, and use the transfer valve to refill
the smaller tanks.

You might be able to get one cheap by finding someone
into paitball that is upgrading to a nitrogen system
(3500psi) from a CO2 system.

Steven


		


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Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 05:30:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kevin <domino916 at yahoo.com>
Subject: CALIFORNIA STATE FAIR

CALL FOR ENTRIES!
CALIFORNIA STATE FAIR
www.brewingcompetition.com/2005CSF/

THE TIME IS HERE!!  The California State Fair Homebrew
Competetion is looking for entries.  This competition
is the second leg in the prestigious Anchor Homebrewer
of the Year award.

This competition will follow the 2004 BJCP Guidelines.
 All  categories are open,including Mead and Cider. 
There is a three 12-ounce bottle requirement, and all
must be free of distinguishing
marks or labels (except entry labels).  Entry fee is
$8 per entry. Complete rules and info is available at
the link listed above.

We ask that you please register your entries at 
www.hordsoffun.com/hbc.rw/regwiz.aspx?w=0504070A28 
This site will help you to easily categorize your
entries and will even print the competition labels. 
Entry labels need to be attached to each bottle
by rubber band.  Upon receiving the entries, the
organizer will send you confirmation by email.

Remote sites are available to drop off entries from
June 18, 2005 thru July 1, 2005.  A complete list of
remote entry sites is available through the link
above.  If you don't see one near you, please contact
the organizer to coordinate one.

After July 1st, until July 9th, all entries need to be
shipped to:
Homebrew Outlet, 5528 Auburn Blvd #1, Sacramento CA
95841.

Final Judging will take place at Brew It Up! in
downtown Sacramento,
on July 23 and 24.

Thank you
Kevin Pratt
Organizer
domino916 at yahoo dot com




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Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:55:27 +0000
From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: Propane bottles

Filling a propane bottle with CO2 is probably not a good idea. Compare a 
CO2 bottle and a propane bottle. One is much more substantial than the 
other. The vapor pressure of propane at room temperature is about 125 
psi. For CO2 it's about 7 times that so if you got liquid CO2 into a 
propane bottle you would be asking for trouble. Someone who understands 
the physics could probably safely use a Bernzomatic bottle to store some 
CO2 gas at low pressure but at low pressure it wouldn't hold enough to 
make it worth while. Cute little CO2 bottles are available. You'd be 
much better off with one of those (though the cost per pound for refills 
will doubtless be a bit of a shock).

A>J.


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Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 08:53:57 -0500
From: Dylan Tack <dylan at io.com>
Subject: Re: Bernzomatic Cylinder

> Has anyone ever tried to create a small, portable CO2 tank by back
> filling  an old Bernzomatic cylinder?

Interesting idea.  The common propane cylindars would likely not work, 
as propane has a vapor pressure of about 125 psi at room temp, compared 
to about 860 psi for CO2 (numbers from memory, may not be 100% accurate 
 - but the pressure varies a lot with temperature anyway).

However there is an oxygen cylinder that's about the same size, with a 
different connection (it has left-hand threads IIRC).  Oxygen 
cyclinders usually have a service pressure a little over 2000 psi - 
though this is for the industrial CGA-540 type cylindars.  I have no 
idea what the disposable Benzomatic tanks can hold.

Also, it's probably illegal to transport your refilled cylindar - but 
it just might work.

> Are there any significant risks?

Injury, death, property damage, arrest, imprisonment, spilled beer - 
the usual.

 -Dylan




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Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 06:49:53 -0800
From: Scott and Cherie Stihler <stihlerunits at mosquitonet.com>
Subject: ETBHC is nearly here

The 8th Annual E.T. Barnette Homebrew Competition is only about a month away!

This is an AHA sanctioned competition will take place on July 16th.

The grand prize for Best of Show is $500!!!

Great prizes and custom medals will also be awarded to the 1st, 2nd 
and 3rd place winners of each of the seven judged categories.

Note that shipping to Alaska is a bit more expensive than it is to 
the contiguous United States. We try to, at least in part, compensate 
the entrants for the higher costs by providing each one with a nice 
little package of goodies regardless of how they place in the 
competition. Last year we  were able to give each entrant at least 
one T-shirt in their size plus a bottle of custom labelled hot sauce 
and a collection of beer coasters and labels from throughout the U.S. 
and Great Britain. We hope to be able to do so again this year.

The seven categories that will be judged are: Bock (5A-D), English 
Pale Ale (8A-C), American Ale (10A-C), Porter (12A-C), Stout (13A-F), 
IPA (14A-C) and Fruit/Spice/Herb/Vegetable Beer (20 & 21A).

Entries will be accepted: June 27 - July 13, 2005

Entry fees: Submit three 12-16 oz brown or green crown capped bottles 
and a check or money order (made out to Scott Stihler) for $5.00 in 
U.S. funds per entry.

Judging: Judging will take place on Saturday, July 16th.

Location: Fox, Alaska (a small mining community ~11 miles north of Fairbanks)

More information as well as Entry and Bottle ID forms may be found at 
the following URL:
http://www.mosquitonet.com/~stihlerunits/ScottsDen/Beer/Events/Events.html

Should you have any questions please contact Scott Stihler at 
stihlerunits at mosquitonet.com or (907) 474-2138.


Cheers,

Scott Stihler
Fairbanks, Alaska
[2874, 324.9] Apparent Rennerian


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Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:14:16 -0700
From: "D. Hopf" <hopfbrau at quetzalloca.com>
Subject: RE: Bernzomatic Cylinder


Mark Prior asks,

> Has anyone ever tried to create a small, portable CO2 tank by 
> back filling 
> an old Bernzomatic cylinder?  


Dude, don't do this. This is not a sane way to economize. There is a
reason that the walls of a CO2 cylinder are many times thicker than the
walls of a propane tank. If you are thinking about not exceeding the
rated pressure of a propane cylinder, it is still a bad idea. 

> Are there any significant risks?

Death and dismemberment come to mind....

 -= Dave









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Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 14:47:04 -0500
From: Dylan Tack <dylan-tack at uiowa.edu>
Subject: BJCP on fruit lambic

Here's a puzzle:

2004 BJCP Style Guide:
> A thick rocky, mousse-like head, sometimes a shade of fruit, is
> generally long-lasting. Always effervescent. Highly carbonated.

2001 BJCP Style Guide:
> Head retention is not expected to be very good.
> Younger bottles (less than five years) tend to be sparkling, older
> vintages are sometimes less carbonated.


Does anyone care to speculate on the reason for the reversal?  The 2001 
guide is more consistant with my experience.  For example, the 
Cantillon Rose de Gambrinus has almost no head.

 -Dylan




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Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 19:51:22 -0400
From: "Mark Prior" <priorm at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Bernzomatic Cylinder

>>From: "Mark Prior" <priorm at hotmail.com>
>>Subject: Bernzomatic Cylinder

>>Has anyone ever tried to create a small, portable CO2 tank by back filling 
>>an old Bernzomatic cylinder?  Are there any significant risks?

Let me clarify.  I am not looking to replace a CO2 tank at 600 PSI.  I have 
several of these but don't like lugging them around when I take beer on the 
road.

My thoughts were to back fill a Benzomatic cylinder to a pressure of about 
10-25 PSI.  I'm thinking that might be enough to push out 3 gallons of cold 
carbonated beer over a few hours.  This pressure is below what a standard 2 
liter coke bottle is holding while it sits on supermarket shelves.

Does anyone know what pressure the canisters are typically filled to?

Has anyone ever tried to use one of these cylinders for a low pressure 
application such at this?




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Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 21:14:13 -0500
From: Rod Prather <rodpr at comcast.net>
Subject: On Spruce Ale

On the spruce tips.  It's almost too late in the season to pick them. 
The ones you should use are the fresh light green new growth that
appears in the early spring.  They have less oil and the flavor isn't so 
much
like Pine Sol.  A good test is simple.  Taste the tips you are picking,
they should be sweet and tender, not bitter.    You might be able
to still find some if you are in the far north.

Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 07:27:05 -0400
From: leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: Spruce Ale

I am planning a Spruce Ale, and intend to do the following:
7.75 lb Pils
2 lb Wheat
 .25 lb Biscuit

>
>
>
>  
>



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