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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: Help with Harshness (Fred Johnson)
  Re:  Help with Harshness ("David Houseman")
  Paintball tank regulator made cheap & easy ("Steve Laycock")
  re: Bernzomatic cylinder - Portable CO2 ("C.D. Pritchard")
  Re: Help with Harshness ("Richard S Sloan")
  Re:cleaning barrels (apte)
  Re: Bottle Conditioning and Storage Temps... (Jeff Renner)
  Cleaning Oak Barrels ("Eric R. Theiner")
  RE: cleaning barrels ("Brian Lundeen")


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Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 07:21:47 -0400
From: Fred Johnson <FLJohnson at portbridge.com>
Subject: Re: Help with Harshness

Matt is having a problem with his beers becoming "harsh" with time.  I 
believe I have the same problem as Matt, and I am still trying to 
figure out the source.

In my experience, the problem really only occurs with fairly highly 
hopped beers, which I think is the most important clue to my problem 
and I suspect it is Matt's as well. I never have this problem with 
hefeweizens, Belgian wits, dubbels, or tripels. Definitely with all my 
American and English Pale Ales/ESB, IPAs, ambers, and pilsners. All my 
beers are bottle conditioned. All my highly hopped beers will start off 
as very pleasing with nice hop flavors. After the bottle is carbonated, 
and I'm starting to consume them, I'm saying to myself,  "What a nice 
beer!"  But over a few weeks time, they invariably lose those nice hops 
flavors and become much less appealing. Some might call them "harsh".

What I think Matt and I are experiencing is the bitterness left behind 
after the hop flavor components (and perhaps malt flavors) are gone. I 
believe the problem is simply oxidation that is spoiling the fresh 
flavors. Are there other things besides oxygen that could spoil these 
flavors?

I have tried about everything I know to keep oxidation down after the 
boil: purge secondary with CO2 prior to transfer from primary, careful 
bottling. Perhaps the problem is the result of hot side aeration during 
the mash, which I am NOT very careful to avoid.  (I know this may not 
apply to Matt, since he experienced this with an extract beer.)

Would someone care to help me design an experiment to identify the 
problem?

Fred L Johnson
Apex, North Carolina, USA



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Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 08:02:15 -0400
From: "David Houseman" <david.houseman at verizon.net>
Subject: Re:  Help with Harshness

Matt,

It's difficult for anyone to ascertain what you mean by "harshness" since
our senses vary.  However your thoughts about the chlorine may have merit.
Soaking plastic in bleach does require a good deal of rinsing and then
letting it dry.  And since you know that your water has chlorine or
chloramines then this is really suspect.  Chlorophenols are likely to be a
problem.  Perhaps as the bottles age, some of the other flavors are becoming
more subdued, bringing the chlorophenols to the fore front.   I suggest you
take some of your beer to a local club meeting and get opinions from other
brewers, especially if they are experienced BJCP judged.  For that matter,
enter some of this into a competition for the feedback.

Good luck,

David Houseman



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Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 09:42:53 -0700
From: "Steve Laycock" <slaycock at discoverynet.com>
Subject: Paintball tank regulator made cheap & easy

"Have any of your club members come up with an inexpensive way to regulate
the pressure out of these little cylinders?"

Mike, we had our monthly meeting last night & one of the guys had his 20 oz
paintball cylinder there and using it.  What he and the others did is simply
use a standard off the shelf regulator and adapt over to the paint ball
tanks "gas out" fitting.
 From memory he thought it was an 1/8 to 1/4 adapter and that Fox Equipment
has this adapter.
I looked in my Fox catalog and on page 35, I found this p/n 05B01-158 "Male
Pipe Reducer" (Male pipe thread to male pipe thread) "that should work"
(That's assuming that the thread size is in fact 1/8 x 1/4 that is needed to
adapt these two parts together,you'll need to verify the size....and all for
less than $1.00 for the adapter.
I've seen these units work wonderfully and intend to set one up for myself.
I've already got the paintball tank fitting with a braided SS hose (i'll
probably pull the braided hose off and use the above said adapter and go
from there.  Happy plumbing!
Steve





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Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:10:07
From: "C.D. Pritchard" <cdp at chattanooga.net>
Subject: re: Bernzomatic cylinder - Portable CO2

Spencer asked about the co2 cartridge tire inflater type gizmos:  It also
appears that you don't get any control over the pressure -- it just shoots
the contents of the cartridge into the keg?

One manually controls the pressure by briefly bumping the release.  A
pressure gauge between the keg and the gizmo helps a lot.  Just don't bump
the release with the keg end dead-ended or the gauge will be ruined.  
Details at http://chattanooga.net/~cdp/3lkeg/3lkeg.htm.  


c.d. pritchard     cdp at chattanooga.net 
http://chattanooga.net/~cdp/



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Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 08:50:18 -0700
From: "Richard S Sloan" <richard.s.sloan at us.hsbc.com>
Subject: Re: Help with Harshness

Matt <baumssl27 at yahoo.com> wrote:

>>I could really use some help figuring out the cause of a harsh taste
>>that is making a lot (at least 4 recent batches) of my beers less
>>enjoyable.

Without being able to describe the off flavor, I would try changing just
one thing each time you brew to nail down what is causing the off flavor.

I would start by brewing a batch with bottled spring water instead of the
tap water.

If that doesn't remove the off taste, switch from bleach to Iodophor for
sanitizing on the next batch.

You can try using the beer flavor wheel to help figure out what you might
be tasting
http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue5.6/flavorwheel.html

Richard Sloan
XXL Brewing Co., San Diego, CA
"One size does not fit all"



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Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 09:40:12 PDT
From: <apte at parc.com>
Subject: Re:cleaning barrels


Marc asks about cleaning the oak taste out of a new barrel.

Marc, I just fill with hot water, let stand a day, and drain. Repeat
until the effluent is not too oaky, then sulfite the barrel once and
fill. Typically 4-5 fills gets most of the oak out, but enough remains
to add a gentle oakiness. Alternatively, you could fill will mead for 2
months, drain and fill with something else, &c. In two months the mead
will get a good dose of oak, but not too much. Because of the pH and
alcohol, it only takes a few beverage fills to de-oak a barrel.

raj



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Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:43:07 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <jsrenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Bottle Conditioning and Storage Temps...

"Michael Eyre" <meyre at sbcglobal.net wrote:

>  it's hot outside now; it's also darned
> hot in that room, with days approaching the mid 90's lately. What
> effects, if any, does this kind of temp have on bottled beer? I know
> it's no good for an active fermentation to get that hot, but what  
> about
> bottles? Should I move 'em all downstairs into the basement where's  
> its
> 70 degrees?

All the staling reactions are going to proceed faster at that  
temperature, including non-light stimulated skunking (it can happen)  
and oxidation, as well as any biological deterioration from micro- 
organisms.  I vote for moving them, even though it's a bother.  Even  
70 degrees (21C) is not all that cool.  I'd prefer 55F for ales, or,  
for lagers, 40F.

Jeff

- ---
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, jsrenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943
***Please note new address***



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Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:45:28 -0500
From: "Eric R. Theiner" <rickdude at tds.net>
Subject: Cleaning Oak Barrels

Marc asks about cleaning barrels...

>My question is in regards to cleaning the initial "oak" 
>out.  My instructions say to use sodium carbonate (soda
>ash) for chemical cleaning, or steam. I tried steam and 
>got a lot of steam but could never get the water to run 
>clear. I noticed that OxyClean has sodium percarbonate 
>and sodium carbonate as ingredients.

Well, how much oak do you want to remove?  I don't know 
much about barrels, but I do know that in many (all?) 
cases, the barrels are charred.  I'm thinking someone 
else can chime in on this...

What I DO know about is "refreshing" or "sweetening" 
used barrels.  Yes, I make a product for that called 
Barrel Oxyfresh (there-- that ought to tick off 
someone<g>), but OxyClean is very similar in composition 
as long as you use the non-scented, non-detergent 
containing version.

Use 0.5 oz per gallon of cold water in your barrel and 
roll it to mix in the product.  You'll need to remove 
the bung and let it gas off, so only put it in to roll 
the barrel.  Even then, do it outside 'cos it might blow 
the bung out during the rolling.  Simply top it up and 
let it set for a few hours.

Afterwards, rinse it and (this is VERY important!) follow 
the same procedure with 0.25 oz citric acid per gallon of 
cold water.  Roll it again, give it a few minutes, then 
dump it and rinse it one last time.

Hope that's helpful,

Rick Theiner



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Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 19:07:08 -0500
From: "Brian Lundeen" <blundeen at mts.net>
Subject: RE: cleaning barrels

> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 16:35:02 -0400
> From: Marc Sedam <alechemist at bellsouth.net>
> Subject: cleaning barrels
> 
> Hey all,
> 
> I have a french oak barrel that I intend to use to age mead, 
> beer, and wine (not at the same time).  I've swollen the 
> barrel and it currently sits with metabsulfite solution in it.
> 
> My question is in regards to cleaning the initial "oak" out. 

My answer is, don't, unless you're in a bustin' rush to neutralize your
wood.

Best way I know of to break in a new barrel is to barrel ferment and age
some good Chardonnay. High end kits work just fine. Chardonnay can take a
lot of new oak, and the fermentation side of it helps it integrate into the
flavoUr profile. Fill 2/3 for fermentation, top up with tank or carboy
fermented Chardonnay when fermentation is over. Leave all the lees in there,
stir them up once a week. Keep it like this until you think there is enough
oak. Then leave it in longer because you'll be flat out wrong. The overt
oakiness will fade. Oak it till it hurts. If by chance you do overdo it, you
can always blend with some unoaked at bottling time.

Now, this process could take you several months. Still, you paid dearly for
that oak (unless this is one of those sweet deals I always hear about but
never experience myself, like "I was sitting down having a few glasses of
vino with this guy, and it turns out he owns a winery and he says, here
Marc, have a French oak barrel" or something like that... As usual, I
digress). Be patient, and make use of it.

Cheers
Brian, in Winnipeg



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