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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


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Contents:
  Response: FOY, 05-Dry Yeast Question ("Rob Moline")
  Dave's Coca Cola ("Phil Yates")
  Oops ("A.J deLange")
  Re: Ballantines (Jeff Renner)
  Seeded Hops Question ("Doug Hurst")
  ALASKA NHC 2007 OR BUST! ("aboyce@mn.rr.com")
  Sparkling Ales ("Stephen Johnson")
  Response: FOY, 05-Crabtree effect and Overflow Metabolism ("Rob Moline")


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Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 22:17:58 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: Response: FOY, 05-Dry Yeast Question

From: Donald Hellen 
Subject: Dry Yeast Question

I would like to know how long dried yeast stored in the
refrigerator (under 40 degrees F) can be expected to be
useful?

I'm sure that studies have been done like those with liquid
yeast discussed recently, and my own experience has shown
that we can expect at least some dried yeasts to last two
years or more.

Also, is there a significant difference between different
brands of dried yeasts in how long they can be stored and
still be usable?
 - ------------------------------------
Beer--Not just another breakfast drink!


Donald,

the length of the shelf life is very much strain dependent but there are
also slight diffrences within the same strain from production to
production; yeast is a living organism after all. In general we give a
shelf life of 2 years and that is basically the minimum for which we
guarantee that the yeast still performes to specs. We test our yeast
every 3 months to control the shelf life and find that the yeast often
shows good viability and acitivity even beyond the guaranteed shelf
life. We had for instance a Windsor ale yeast that performed still very
well after more than 3 years. 

So you might be ale to use the yeast after the shelf life is expired but
we can guarantee you only 2 years shelf life. This of course requires
that the yeast is still in its unopened original pack. Once dry yeast
gets in contact with oxygen and moisture activity and viablity will
drop. 

Tobias 

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Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 14:48:31 +1000
From: "Phil Yates" <phil.yates at bigpond.com>
Subject: Dave's Coca Cola

Dave Burley writes:
>Blam! This coke was just like the Coke I remembered from my youth.
>That experience came about since all the ingredients which had been >used
in
>the original Coca Cola were produced locally, not conjured up in a US
>factory.

Well, being Australian, I have to admit I have never ever heard someone
comment about variations in flavour between yesteryear Coca Cola, and the
modern product. Not that I'm a Coca Cola fan. My dad referred to it as
"lolly water" and refused to let us drink soft drinks of any nature.

But I do remember sipping beer at a very very early age, whilst sitting on
dad's lap. He didn't think that was a bad thing at all for a toddler.

You've got me curious Dave, what are the ingredients of Coca Cola, other
than sugar and water and of course CO2? What variations do you perceive
between old and new.

This is taking taste analysis to new heights (for me at least).



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Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 12:16:08 +0000
From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: Oops

I flubbed it on hardness definitions.

1. Total hardness is the sum of all ions which are chelated by EDTA 
(practically speaking this includes sodium and calcium but will also 
include strontium if it is present and iron). The hardness is the total 
equivalence multiplied by 50 and expressed "as calcium carbonate".

2. The bicarbonate hardness (also called "temporary hardness because 
this is the amount that will precipitate under lime or heat treatment) 
is the fraction of total hardness equivalent to bicarbonate i.e. the 
total hardness where the alklainity is greater than or equal to the 
total hardness. Where the alkalinity is less than the total hardness the 
temporary hardness is the alkalinity (the amount of hardness that can be 
precipitated) and the permanent hardness is the difference between the 
total hardness and the alkalinity as this portion of the hardness cannot 
be precipitated as carbonate.

A.J.


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Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:51:31 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <jsrenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Ballantines

Brewers

Here is a brief illuminating note I received from a retired master  
brewer at one of the breweries (not sure which one) that brewed  
Ballantine XXX:

> OG 13.0
> SI  3.0
>        On extract basis was 70% malt and 30% corn grits. Hops were  
> Oregon Bullion. Dry hopped and the big secret was the in-house  
> distilled hop oil added at final filtration with great care. O2  
> raised hell with the utilization.
>         Bill
>         Palmdale, CA

I'm not certain what "SI" is, but I assume it's final gravity.  13P  
is ~1.052, 3P is ~1.012, so you can see that it's well attenuated - 77%.

I think we all remember (well, we graybeards, anyhow) the hop  
character as being the most distinctive thing about Ballantine, both  
XXX and IPA.  I don't think later renditions were ever as  
characterful as the beer from the 60's (and presumably earlier).

To reiterate earlier AL's comment, it's well accepted that the  
Ballantine yeast is the source of the Sierra Nevada/WLP001/W1056  
strain, although there have been changes over time and distance.  For  
one thing, the original was a top cropper, as evidenced by the  
pictures of brewery workers skimming the yeast at the NJ brewery.  In  
my experience, W1056 produces more of a top crop than WLP001, but not  
as much as the old YCKC/YeastLab Chico strain.  I think that one also  
had a bit more character.

Jeff


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Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:57:15 -0500
From: "Doug Hurst" <dougbeer2000 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Seeded Hops Question


The discussion of possible hops for use in Ballantine clones has raised a 
question regarding seeded hops.  I have noticed that Fuggles usually contain 
seeds, but that most other varieties do not.  If the hop plant is a 
dioecious species and male plants are not grown, thus preventing 
fertilization, then why do Fuggles have seeds in them?  Are there any other 
varieties with seeds?  I also wonder whether the seeds contribute anything 
to beer flavor.


Doug Hurst
Chicago, IL
[197.5, 264.8] Apparent Rennerian




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Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:19:47 -0400
From: "aboyce at mn.rr.com" <aboyce@mn.rr.com>
Subject: ALASKA NHC 2007 OR BUST!

Ever wanted to go to ALASKA?!?  Sign our petition!

www.petitionthem.com/default.asp?sect=detail&pet=1891#sigs

There is a grassroots campaign underway to convince the American
Homebrewers Association (AHA) board that there is huge interest in a
National Homebrewer's Conference in Alaska.  

When I asked my wife (who is NOT a Beer Geek, like I am) if she would be
interested in it, she asked me when she should start packing!  We have been
looking for an excuse to vacation in Alaska for years, and an NHC
conference would be just the excuse to finally see Alaska for a week or
two, and then have a great Beer conference to wrap it all up.

Steve Schmitt, from the Alaska homebrewing community, is putting together a
proposal for 2007 which will go to the AHA next month, in August.  They
know that people would need more than a year to save and plan for it,
that's why they're starting so early.  It would be GREAT if he could attach
a list of several hundred homebrewers who would attend a conference in
Alaska to his proposal.

To help the effort, SIGN TODAY!  Join your name to the 167 homebrewers who
have already committed to the ALASKA NHC 2007!  And tell your homebrewing
friends to sign too!

www.petitionthem.com/default.asp?sect=detail&pet=1891#sigs

(The HBD strips out the http header - so you may have to copy and paste
this  website into your browser.  Sorry!)

 - Al
MN Homebrewers Assoc.

PS - Minnesota already has over 27 people who have signed... not that I'm
issuing a challenge to the other 49 states or anything....  ;-D

PPS - Alaskan Salmon, Glaciers, Alaskan King Crab, Denali National Park,
Midnight Sun, Aurora Borealis, Gold Panning, Unspoiled Wilderness, and...
ALASKAN SMOKED PORTER!!! How many reasons do you NEED??

- --------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .





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Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 19:25:03 -0500
From: "Stephen Johnson" <sjohnson3 at comcast.net>
Subject: Sparkling Ales

In the most recent Homebrew Digest, Paul Thomas comments on the
Ballantine thread about how "...on page 86 of Randy Mosher's "Radical
Brewing" there is a picture of a "Ballantines Sparkling Ale" label, and
on the same page a recipe for "Telltale Ale - American Sparking Ale."
Does anyone know how Sparkling Ale fits into the Ballantines
equation?"...

I recently did some research about American Pale Ales as part of a talk
with Fred Scheer of Boscos Brewing in Nashville, TN, for American Beer
Month. One of the sources I found is from a past issue of Brew Your Own
magazine. This particular article from April, 1997, by Jeff Frane, has a
brief section on Ballantine. In particular, be brings up how Ballantine
was one of the few brands in America to preserve the British traditions
of India Pale Ales. But, over time and with the brand moving away from
the Northeast and into the Midwest as a result of buy-outs and mergers,
"the beer was toned down to a shadow of its former glory."

He continues:
"Other ales, of considerably less character, continued to be produced in
the Northeast somewhat as novelty items. Many, in fact, were not true
ales at all in the sense of being top-fermented. Fred Eckhardt, author
of Essentials of Beer Style, refers to them as 'sparkling ales' and
notes that they were brewed to compete with the American pale lagers.
Like those beers the ales had 'minimal taste profile, minimal hopping,
and [were] lacking in hop bouquet."

Finally:
"In due time many of these beers were labeled 'cream ales,' and whatever
special character they possessed diminished further. Most were 'b@$t@rd
ales,' formulated as a standard beer (although perhaps brewed to be just
a little stronger) and fermented with the brewery's regular lager yeast
at a slightly elevated temperature for a slightly harsher, slightly
fruitier taste." 

Definitely interesting stuff about some of those brands that shaped many
of our early memories of beer and became icons through connections with
major sports sponsorships, magazine advertising (Life, Saturday Evening
Post, etc.), and catchy jingles. What I've learned in studying some of
this history is that while the label may have been pretty much the same
on a brand like Ballantine, there apparently were many changes in the
actual products over the years. As a result, one person's recollection
of a Ballantine Pale Ale or XXX Ale may be very different from another
person's depending on when they had those consumption experiences and
what particular version of the beer they were drinking during it's long
history of being brewed. Those who remember the piney nature of the
aroma may have had a much earlier version than some others who don't
recall that aspect of the beers.

Steve Johnson
Nashville, TN




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Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:38:19 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: Response: FOY, 05-Crabtree effect and Overflow Metabolism



Brewsters:

I sent this last week or so, but realized this, like a number of other
past submissions of mine were not making it on the HBD and I was not getting
a bounce message.  So a little out of date, but here is my question and
comment for the group and those fine Gentlemen from Lallemand.  I have
modified my format for message approximately as that fabled Janitor, Pat
Babcock, instructs and we will see if this does it.

(Editorial note: It failed. I forced this on since his post is
coming through as multipart MIME with html attachments. Folks,
whenever pasting an URL, ensure your mailer hasn't converted it
to an HTML tag - as appears to have been the case here.)

Clayton Cone has explained that if have more than 0.2% glucose in our
starters that we cannot expect any cell wall improvement even in the
presence of oxygen, since the mechanism changes from a Pasteur Efftect
to a Crabtree effect.. Presumably the addition of oxygen to our wort at the
beginning of the fermentation will likewise make no sense. Does this mean
we ned to wait until the end of the fermentation? And why do it at all?.

Forbes:  Addition of air/oxygen at the start of the fermentation allows
the yeast to consume glycogen to produce sterols and Unsat. fatty
acids......it is a different situation to respiration.  Production of
these compounds has an absolute requirement for oxygen.  The aeration
you do at the start of the fermentation will be consumed very quickly
(30 mins) but this is normally enough.  In aerobic propagations with
high sugar (as you normally would be doing) you will have some effect on
the cell membrane but it will not be as good as growing the yeast at low
sugar.  Under aerobic conditions the yeast has to make sterols and fatty
acids as both these can have trouble being transported in the presence
of air.  However, under anaerobic conditions both these substances are
easily transported but not produced by the yeast.

So we need to develop method of stirring our starters which will keep
the glucose concentration low, but allow yeast to grow more cell wall fatty
acid contaiing substances. Since few of us have the metering and measuring
equipment to do this in a strarightforward process control way, perhaps
there is another way to do it.

1) Clayton: Any idea about how fast sucrose would be inverted e.g. if we
started with a 1% sucrose solution with appropriate nutrient levels in a
strirred, oxygenated  starter , is there any chance that the rate of
inversion would be slower than the rate of consumption (I guess this
would
be yeast concentration dependent) , so we can keep the glucose ( does
Crabtree also work for fructose?) concentration down and permit good
cellwall development in an oxygenated starter?

Forbes:  I would doubt that there is any benefit to doing this.
Invertase activity will be reduced by the presence of glucose....thus as
the invertase cleaves sucrose it is producing glucose which, if the
glucose accumulated, would eventually shut down the invertase activity.
In general the invertase activity never seems to lead to this situation,
so you would have to assume that invertase activity is modulated to
prevent glucose accumulation.  You are probably better using malt
extract/ malt as you normally do.  The presence of glucose is very low
(about 10% of the sugar) and will be consumed quickly.  This then means
that maltose become the sugar of choice for the yeast.  Maltose does not
initiate the Crabtree effect in the same way; in fact it is a very weak
activator in yeast.  This is probably due to the fact that maltose is
actively transported prior to being cleaved into two glucose units and
this will bypass the major glucose signalling systems in the cell
membrane.

2) How about the Overflow Metabolism effect?
*
www.biotech.kth.se/courses/3A1308/Downloads/Overflowmetabolism.pdf
*  *  Does this affect your explanation?

Forbes:  Overflow metabolism or the pyruvate dehydrogenase (PDH) bypass
is a reasonably well understood mechanism that is only truly relevant
for cultures with controlled growth rates/glucose feeding.  There is
really no overflow involved in the batch propagation you mentioned.  If
you were trying to control the propagation then the PDH bypass would
only be in play if you were trying to grow the yeast at a growth rate
that is very close to the limit of its respiratory capacity.  At this
point pyruvate metabolism into TCA is saturated and pyruvate starts to
spill over towards Ethanol but (and this is perhaps simplistic) the
amounts are still insufficient to commit to alcoholic fermentation so
you get the acetic acid-acetyl Co-A part of the pathway continuing to
supply acetyl Co-A. All of this is well presented in the internet link
that you provided...many thanks, much more eloquent in graphic form.


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