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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Questions for a stuck fermentation on a Barley Wine ("Steve Seeley")
  cereal mash/retrogradation ("steve.alexander")
  RE: CAP (Bill Tobler)
  Re: Dry yeast - one more chance ("Mike Racette")
  Louisiana Beer... (CP)" <BrianSmith1@templeinland.com>
  Re: Long term yeast storage / Dry Yeast One More Chance (le Man)


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Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 23:23:28 -0800
From: "Steve Seeley" <seseeley at hotpop.com>
Subject: Questions for a stuck fermentation on a Barley Wine

Hi all,

		I have a stuck fermentation on a Barley Wine.  The OG
was 1.125 SG.  After 4 days the 1084 Iris ale yeast quit fermenting.  I
racked after the 7th day (3 days of nothing) and the SG was 1.082 with
the AA only at 33%.

		I also got a second beer off the same mash which went
from an OG of 1.055 SG to 1.014 SG in 4 days for a AA of 75%.  The sparg
for these beers was a continuous fly sparg collecting the first 7gals
for the Barley Wine and a 2nd 7 gallons as a session beer.

		I don't think the wort was too high in unfermentables
because the 2nd beer had good AA.  Is the ratio of unfermentables to
fermentable basically the same through out a fly sparg if a mash out of
168 degF held for 40 min.?

		I think the starter was OK?  The starter was made with
about 4 oz of yeast paste (from a prior batch) pitched into 1 gallon of
1.025 SG wort and fermented out.  After decanting off the spent starter
wort 3/4 of the slurry was pitched into the Barley Wine and the
remaining 1/4 pitched into the 2nd beer.

		I'm thinking that the Barley Wine wort may not have had
enough O2?  Therefore maybe pitching some dry lager yeast (which have
built in O2 reserves) will get things fermenting again?  I'm thinking
that re-oxygenating would cause staling?

	Thanks for any help,
	Steve Seeley (from Shingle Springs CA - halfway between
Sacramento and Tahoe on 50 highway)





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Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 03:16:33 -0500
From: "steve.alexander" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: cereal mash/retrogradation

Darrell in Plattsburgh asks,

>When doing a CAP: I recall that in gelatinizing the corn it
>was suggested that one add some malt as well.  Why is this?

Malt isn't used to achieve Gelatinization, but to
avoid it's evil doppelganger, Retrogradation.

Gelatinization of starch involves unravellings and hydrating
the huge and highly branched amylopectin molecules.  Grain 
starch granules, for instance, often contain a single
amylopectin molecule with thousands or even tens of thousands
of glucose units.

Anyone who has ever made gravy or used starch as a thickener
for soups of pies realizes the gelatinized starch traps a
large amount of water and thus forms a gel.  If the amount
of water is small then gel is thick and is insoluble
when more water is added.  It sets like glue (and has been
used as glue for centuries).  Even in somewhat thinner gels,
given time, starch molecules form closed 'pockets' which are
not soluble. If you've seen grist 'ball' or starch get lumpy,
then you've seen a macroscopic version of the same problem.
Bread staling is actually retrogradation too.  Less water,
higher pH and lower temps all encourage retrogradation.

If starch retrogrades, then there is little hope of ever
mashing it into fermentables.

Most folks don't appreciate that you need something like
20 times the mass as water to fully hydrate intact grain
amylopectin and avoid any retrogradation.  That's around
6qt per pound (~12L/kg) for typical grains .... and
that's a ridiculous and impractical amount.

The basic problem is that a *lot* of water is trapped
around the highly branched amylopectins.   One way to reduce 
the water requirement is to cut the amylopectins into small
bits which can't trap as much water.   Alpha-amylase does
this nicely.

The goal for a CAP is to bring the raw corn above it's gelat
temp (typically 70-75C)  along with a small amount of pale
malt [malt has far more alpha-amylase than needed for self
conversion] and then give it a decent rest at that temp.
The simple sugars also help reduce the  water trapping issue.

Snipping up the mega-dalton grain amylopectins with
alpha-amylase to prevent retrogradation with a modest
amount of water is the point of the malt in a cereal
mash.

 -S




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Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 07:06:40 -0600
From: Bill Tobler <brewbetter at houston.rr.com>
Subject: RE: CAP

Darrell said;

"When doing a CAP: I recall that in gelatinizing the corn it was 
suggested that
one add some malt as well.  Why is this?"

Hi Darrell, good question.  I could tell you in my words, but Mark 
Sedam tells it much better.  In a nutshell, adding about 30% malt to 
the corn and mashing for about 20 minutes before boiling will release 
some enzymes which will break down some of the starch molecules and 
prevent the mash from becoming very thick and difficult to work with.  
I attached a link to Marks post on Starch Gelatinization.  Below is 
also a link to one of Jeff's posts on making a CAP.  Cheers!

This is Marc's original post.

http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/3982.html#3982-2

Jeff on CAP's,

http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/3737.html#3737-4
http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/3737.html#3737-5



Bill Tobler
Lake Jackson, TX
(1129.2, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian
Brewing Great Beer in South Texas



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Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 09:04:19 -0700
From: "Mike Racette" <mike.racette at hydro-gardens.com>
Subject: Re: Dry yeast - one more chance


In HBD #4928, Greg Brewer said: "Their suggested rehydration temperature for
ale yeast
is 27C (85F), cooler than I have usually seen suggested."

27C is actually 80.6F and yes, this temperature surprised me as well since
most dry yeast manufacturers suggest just over 100F. The Fermentis website
suggests 27C +- 3C for ale yeast and also recommends to "Mix gently to form
a cream and allow to stand for 15-30 minutes. Then mix vigorously and stand
for a further 30 minutes prior to pitching into the wort"

Most dry yeasts I've seen say to rehydrate no more than 15 minutes before
pitching.

My lhbs recently started carrying US-56 so I picked some up and have thus
been following this thread closely. Thanks for the info. Guess I'll try
following their instructions and see how it goes even though they are quite
a bit different than most dry yeasts I've tried.

Miker




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Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 10:00:22 -0600
From: "Smith, Brian (CP)" <BrianSmith1 at templeinland.com>
Subject: Louisiana Beer...

Mark,

The Abita Brewery and Brewpub are up.  The wait at the brewpub has increased
greatly.  Cresent City Brewhouse is in the French Quarter so I would think
it's ok.  There is allegidly a new Brewpub in Covington but I haven't found
it yet.  I haven't had a report on the status of the Brew-Ha-Ha homebrew
shop on Magazine street yet.

Brian Smith
Bogalusa LA

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Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 16:09:55 +0000
From: le Man <hbd at thebarnsleys.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Long term yeast storage / Dry Yeast One More Chance

> From: "Bill Kunka"
> Subject: Long term yeast storage


> My question is, what is better storing the yeast in a sterile water and 
> gylcerol (35%)mixture and freezing or a slant that is lightly coated in 
> sterile mineral oil to keep moist and store in a fridge?  I am looking for 
> 1-2 year plus storage.
> 
> Any other ideas out there?

Hi Bill,

My data point FWIW.

I go for storing in distilled water in the fridge at 4C. Just recovered 
some yeast that were in the fridge since March 02. I Take a flamed 
inoculation loop and dip it in the fermenting wort then put that in 4ml 
of sterile distilled water. To revive Shake the vial, and streak out 
onto a wort agar plate, incubate for a week then select a colony and 
transfer to 2ml of wort . . . Step up as usual. Incidentally I also 
recovered yeast from a slant of the same age (Brewlabs Pilsner), but 
another slant of the same age (Brewlabs High Gravity) failed to revive.

I had no luck reviving any of my Glycerol and water Frozen samples of 
the same vintage.

IIRC Dr Clayton Cone recommends Mineral oil storage for very long term 
storage.

> From: Greg Brewer
> Subject: Re: Dry yeast - one more chance
> 
>  Their suggested rehydration temperature for ale yeast
> is 27C (85F), cooler than I have usually seen suggested.

Of course what you have to remember is that each manufacturer recommends 
the approach (temp / Time / Wort / Water ) to produce the optimum 
results for their particular yeast strain so there will be variations. 
IIRC Nottingham is 30C, and DR Clayton Cone has reported that there is 
considerable fall off in viability the further away from this 
temperature you go. (Fortnight of yeast about two years ago)

- -- 
le Man ( The Brewer Formerly Known As Aleman )
Mashing In Blackpool, Lancashire, UK


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