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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Wyeast 1968 London ESB Ale Yeast (Fred L Johnson)
  Source of White Labs WLP002 (Fred L Johnson)
  RE: Gluten-Free Beer ("Dennis O'Brien")
  Re: Cereal Mash ("steve.alexander")
  Re: Cereal Mash (stencil)


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Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 07:16:43 -0400
From: Fred L Johnson <FLJohnson52 at nc.rr.com>
Subject: Wyeast 1968 London ESB Ale Yeast

A description of Wyeast 1968 London ESB Ale Yeast includes the 
following:

"Diacetyl production is noticeable and a thorough rest; 50-70 degrees 
F, (10-21 degree C) is necessary."

Can someone explain to me how one conducts a diacetyl rest for this 
yeast that would look different than the fermentation itself?  Or does 
the author simply mean to allow the beer to remain at fermentation 
temperature for somewhat longer than is required to actually finish the 
fermentation?

Fred L Johnson
Apex, North Carolina, USA



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Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 07:26:58 -0400
From: Fred L Johnson <FLJohnson52 at nc.rr.com>
Subject: Source of White Labs WLP002

According to one source that I've collected over the years, White Labs 
ale yeast WLP002 is listed as equivalent to two different Wyeast 
strains, Wyeast 1968 from Fuller's and Wyeast 1318 from Young's. 
Obviously WLP002 can not be equivalent to both of these. White Labs 
describes WLP002 as " A classic ESB strain from one of England's 
largest independent breweries."

So from which brewery is WLP002? Fuller's or Young's or neither? And is 
it equivalent to either of the Wyeast strains?

Fred L Johnson
Apex, North Carolina, USA



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Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 06:28:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Dennis O'Brien" <denniso76021 at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Gluten-Free Beer

I'm new to this gluten-free thing, but it's learn how
to brew gluten-free or cut beer out of my diet.
Obvious choice.  I'm trying to soak up all of the bits
of wisdom being shared and hope to get my first batch
of GFB going soon.  I have a few questions:

1. I use ProMash and am looking for potential SG data
for various malts: millet malt, buckwheat malt,
sorghum malt, sorghum syrup, quinoa malt, etc.

2. If anybody would care to give insights on the
flavor and use of various gluten-free malts, it would
be very helpful.  From what I have gleaned from
various sources so far, millet malt seems to make a
good equivalent for a base pale malt, buckwheat is an
OK substitute for wheat, sorghum is OK but lends a
sour taste, and there is no good equivalent for
crystal. 
Comments?

Most of the good information I have found has come out
of Australia (mash procedures at
http://www.sillyyak.com.au/gfb/index.html and Andrew
Lavery's recipes at http://oz.craftbrewer.org) or out
of the book The Homebrewer's Garden.  

3. Lastly, any places selling these grains in bulk
over the Internet (or in North Texas)?  The local feed
stores so far only carry stuff (treated with
pesticides) for planting.

Thanks,
Dennis O'Brien
Trophy Club, TX - 970.8, 233 Apparent Rennerian





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Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 17:37:48 -0400
From: "steve.alexander" <steve-alexander at adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: Cereal Mash

stencil says ... of my post,


>The intent was not to avoid boiling but to avoid the use of a separate pot
>for the cereal mash/boil/decoction.

Stencil misunderstands *my* intent, which was rebut the erroneous
implication that boiling is necessary for an effective cereal mash:

>but near as I can tell there's no substitute
>boiling if you want to use corn or rice 

That's simply not true.

A classic cereal mash involves mixing roughly 90% crushed raw grain
with about 10% crushed malt and then immediately stepping this to or
just above the raw grain gelatinization temperature.   Some ranges
for gelat temps for common raw grains (and others) are:
	maize(corn)	62C-74C
	sorghum		69C-75C
	rice		61C-78C
	wheat		52C-64C
	barley		60C-62C
	potato		56C-69C
The large ranges probably have to do with the substantial variation
of gelat temp as the fraction of amylopectin varies in (e.g. in waxy
grain varieties).  The actual gelat temp for a given sample is quite
well defined.  The point of the cereal mash is NOT complete conversion,
but efficient extraction of starch with enough alpha-amylase present
to free water and avoid retrogradation.

The amylopectin fraction of starch traps a *lot* of water molecules
and although other factors are involved, the primary purpose of the
cereal mash is to release the raw grist amylopectin, then chop these
up with the super-abundant alpha-amylase of the malt.  This allows the
cereal mash to avoid retrogradation (starch turning to glue and lost
to the wort) while using only a "normal" amount of mash water.
Without the alpha-amylase it requires some ridiculous amount of water
(~20qt/lb) to avoid retrogradation.

- --

On stencil's original issue ...
When using a direct fired or water infusion there is simply no
difficulty to the cereal mash process in one pot.  First perform the
classical cereal mash outlined above, then after the cereal grist cools
sufficiently (or with water temp adjustment), add the remaining malt
grist and water and perform the conventional mash in the same
tun.   Sticking & scorching are issues in any direct heated system,
so heat my infusion is you prefer.

His method for a combined cereal boil+decoction seems practical,
but has little in common with a cereal mash and in any case requires
separate vessel for the thin-mash component during decoction.

A few comments on stencil's method ...
	4.50# pils malt
	3.00# quick grits
	 .25# quick oats
That's too much raw grist, and I have doubts about the amino content
of this wort.  You can convert this much adjunct if your malt is
decent, but it will require extra mash rest times.

Also he seems to use 10qt water for the mash-in + 6qt more
after that ... which is together good thin mash, but then sparges
with an enormous  5.5gal (22qt).  That's 9.5gal of total water for 7.75#
of grist and that's far over-budget for water.   He uses almost 5qt/lb
of grist, while 4qt/lb is a practical upper limit w/o overextraction and
3.5qt/lb is a better target for HB use IMO.

> yield to kettle of  8.5 gallons of 1028 wort.  It's cooling, at
>SG 1047,  

With such thin sweet wort the very extensive kettle boil is needed to
attain normal gravity, but a 35% boil-off is unacceptably high and impacts
wort quality.
 
- --

I do agree with stencil's motives - both to reduce the workload and to
reduce the hot wort aeration & handling.  I don't think that a half-day
decocting and a half-day boiling is a useful approach.

 -S




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Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 20:49:40 -0400
From: stencil <etcs.ret at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Cereal Mash

On Fri, 21 Apr 2006 17:37:48 -0400, 
Steve Alexander  wrote:

>
>On stencil's original issue ...
>When using a direct fired or water infusion there is simply no
>difficulty to the cereal mash process in one pot.  First perform the
>classical cereal mash [ ... ], then after the cereal grist cools
>sufficiently (or with water temp adjustment), add the remaining malt
>grist and water and perform the conventional mash in the same
>tun. 

This does sound very much better than my boil-the-whole-mash scheme, as it
avoids the need to add more water to make up for the reserved wort.  That
additional water, as he points out, distorts the grist-water ratio.   

The table of gelatinization temperatures is very welcome;  in all my reading,
preparing for this, everyone referred to "boiling" the cereal mash, frex
Chapter 1 of Fix's /Analysis./  Two-digit gelatinization temps were mentioned
obliquely, if at all, and gave (to me) the impression that they were more of a
concern for industrial processes like hot-rolling oats.  Mcmcmmc.

Many thanks for the guidance.

gds, stencil

[535.2mi, 86.4deg] AR


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