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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


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Contents:
  Roggenbrot ("Dave Burley")
  new brewer intro (Bob Devine)
  A new taste sensation? (Signalbox Brewery)
  Call for Judges & Stewards 2nd round NHC in Orlando, FL June 22-23 (Don Ferris)
  Roggen/gluten/iron ("steve.alexander")
  Re: Roggen/gluten/iron (Andrew Lavery)
  Anhydrous salts (Signalbox Brewery)


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Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 11:28:26 -0400
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Roggenbrot

Brewsters:

Of course, Jeff Renner's opinion about ryebrot somehow having stiffer gluten
ignores the documented literature on the subject (or at least any that I
have read)  and it is irrelevant to my discussion anyway, as he totally
ignored my main point. 

That is, that "gluten" in toto is <not> the problem in celiac disease( my
son had it at an early age), but the glutelin portion of these "gluten"
molecules and its digestive products containing certain <carbohydrate>
portions which irritate the villi.  This implies to me that brewers, by
modification of the brewing process time and temperatures may have the
opportunity to produce a "gluten free" beer ( or at least one which celiacs
can drink) and perhaps by the use of amylases - perhaps in combination with
proteases -  to destroy these <carbobydrate> fractions of the protein
glutelin which are the culprits. Perhaps modfication in the malting time
temperature profile of rye malt will be helpful or necessary.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley 



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Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 10:14:20 -0600
From: Bob Devine <bob.devine at att.net>
Subject: new brewer intro

Do you need a quick intro for a new brewer?
This website is quite readable and helps
take the fear out of the process.

http://www.instructables.com/ex/i/9AE1D9CE21D61029BC6B001143E7E506/?ALLSTEPS

Warning: many of the instructions sound so
old that they are pre-papazian!

But the pictures and image mouseover tricks are nice.

Bob Devine
Riverton, UT


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Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 19:15:51 +0100
From: Signalbox Brewery <signalbox.brewery at ntlworld.com>
Subject: A new taste sensation?

I'd like to enlist the help of the collective to identify a new taste
sensation for me. I drank a sip of Draught Bass not ten miles
from Marstons of Burton where it is now brewed and was rewarded
by having the front sides of my tongue anaesthetized - the area
associated with salt on the tongue map.

I didn't detect salt - or acid - or sweetness. I didn't detect bitterness or
astringency at the places I'd normally expect them (further back).

So what could it be? Beer line cleaner in the UK is caustic - could
it have been that? Everyone else in the pub was swilling the stuff
without complaint. I've never had a sensation like it - twenty minutes
later my tongue was still numb. What could it be?

David Edge, Derby UK



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Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 22:30:50 -0400
From: Don Ferris <dbueller at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Call for Judges & Stewards 2nd round NHC in Orlando, FL June 22-23

Call for Judges and Stewards at the 2nd Round of the National Homebrew 
Competition!
Held in conjunction with the AHAs National Homebrew Conference in 
Orlando, FL 22-24 June 2006 (lots of pre-conference events schedule fore 
21 June! See www.beertown.org for additional details)

Come be part of the largest Homebrew Competition in the World!

You will be helping to determine the best of the best of 20+ entries in 
27 categories. Each entry has already placed in the top three in its 
qualifying region and had to score at least 30 points (many >40 points) 
just to be in this phase of the competition!

Sessions will be held Thursday Morning, Thursday Afternoon, and Friday 
Morning.

If you would like to Judge or Steward please send the following 
information to judges at flbrewer.org or stewards@flbrewer.org respectively:

Last Name
First Name
Preferred Name or Nickname
BJCP # (if applicable, even if just planning to steward)
BJCP Rank (if applicable)
Categories eligible to Judge or Steward
Categories ineligible to Judge or Steward (i.e., you have an entry in 
the 2nd round of the NHC)
Categories you would prefer to Judge or Steward
Categories you would not prefer to Judge or Steward
Time periods you would prefer not to judge (i.e. there is a presentation 
you would like to attend)
State you live in (Will be used to try and ensure each panel has 
regional diversity)
Your homebrew club (if applicable, for statistical purposes to see how 
many different clubs are represented)
email address (or other means of contacting you)


Also ensure you have registered for the National Homebrew Conference 
(Deadline for early discount is 15 May)

If you have already contacted me about judging, you are on the list

Look forward to seeing you in Orlando!

Don Ferris
NHC 2nd Round Judge Coordinator
Space Coast Associates for the
Advancement of Zymurgy (SAAZ)
www.saaz.org
judges at flbrewer.org

Dani Parris-Exline
NHC 2nd Round Steward Coordinator
Space Coast Associates for the
Advancement of Zymurgy (SAAZ)
www.saaz.org
stewards at flbrewer.org


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Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 05:41:43 -0400
From: "steve.alexander" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: Roggen/gluten/iron

Andrew Lavery says ...


> No rye in it.  Made with 100% millet malt but to the style of a 
> roggenbier,

Poke me with a stick if I'm being thick here, but isn't this roughly
equivalent to  making a stew in the style of chili, but without any
peppers ?   Rye has a unique flavor that defines Roggen - no ?

==
On gluten and !gluten
>  Current research is focussed on identifying which of the 1000's 
> of gluten peptides are toxic, no silver bullet yet.
>   
Wrong ! The culprit is primarily a 33-residue peptide with the following 
amino
sequence, LQLQPFPQPELPYPQPELPYPQPELPYPQPQPF .  This was
published in Science ~2002.  Some lab studies show that breaking down this
protein dramatically reduces the T-cell response in rats.   Rats, humans 
 - hard to
distinguish sometimes.  [[A decoder ring for the 1-letter abbrevs is here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amino_acid ]]

Most conventional enzymes don't touch this protein and even if they did 
we'd
need complete degradation.  Unlikely in bread, but more likely in beer.

A very recent article,  "Highly efficient gluten degradation with a newly
identified prolyl endoprotease: implications for celiac disease", in Am J
Physiol Gastrointest Liver Physiol. 2006 May 11.  Indicates that an
endoprotease from A.niger (not an amylase) *may* do the trick.

 
> I would hate think someone would read your post and think it was OK to 
> wash down some enzymes with a six pack of regular beer!
>   

Right - even w/ the primary offender ID'ed and a reasonable enzymatic 
approach
identified a safe/effective solution is still probably many years off.

> I would also imagine using enzymes the breakdown the protein and 
> carbohydrate into tiny fractions (that may or may not be toxic) would 
> destroy the basis for a decent beer - no body, no head retention, no 
> melanoidins etc...
>   
Possible that it would impact (not destroy) head  &body, but that's 
arguable.
If you get a sufficiently specific enzyme the removal won't impact beer 
parameters.
Melanoidins wouldn't be affected directly in any case.

> I'll stick to using malted gluten free grains - much easier, very tasty, 
> and there is no chance of poisoning oneself.
>   
That's certainly the safe/sane course right now, but you might see big 
changes
in a few years.


Someone said ....
>> I doubt that that little spot of rust is going to do any harm to your 
>> beer, given the short contact time and all.

Uhh - you'd be shocked if you read what a fractional ppm of Fe ions does to
the oxidation activity of the mash !   Free iron is bad juju.


====
Andrew Tate asks ...

> I've been reading Greg Noonan's New Brewing Lager Beer book, which is 
> excellent.  He briefly discusses a mashing schedule with at rest in the 
> 130's for both protein and a B-amylase, followed by an alpha-amylase rest at 
> around 160F or so.
>
> Can anyone comment on more specifics of this rest?

You won't gelatinize the malt at 130F, so the beta-amylase only has a 
fraction of the
starch as substrate.  You will get some beta-amylase activity at 160F - 
more than many
here would expect, but this 130F/160F schedule should produce limited 
attenuation.

130F is a great place to remove haze and body.   Be careful down there.


>   Is it useful at all for 
> modern pils malts?
Modern pils malt is almost indistinguishable from PA malt of the 1980s 
except that
the protein content is a notch higher.

>   I know protein rests are out of favor now, but 
> supposedly the higher temp rest preserves more of the body and foam positive 
> proteins than the traditional 122F.
Yes, I would agree with that comment, but see Kunze's profiles for 
modern malt mashing
which mostly avoids this territory. You can and should toy with rests at 
135-145F to
remove haze.

Instead of picking mash rests from a book like it's a Chinese menu, you' 
d be far better
off starting with a basic  schedule (G.Fix's 140F/158F/mashout for 
example) then tweaking
that based on the results you are seeing vs your desired outcome.   It's 
relatively easy to
tell someone how to ajdust a schedule for more haze reduction or less 
attenuation or
whatever, but it's almost nonsense to describe what happens at a 
particular rest -
everything happens , just at different rates.

 -S



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Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 23:42:34 +1000
From: Andrew Lavery <alavery at iprimus.com.au>
Subject: Re: Roggen/gluten/iron

steve.alexander wrote:

> Andrew Lavery says ...
>
>> No rye in it.  Made with 100% millet malt but to the style of a 
>> roggenbier,
>
> Poke me with a stick if I'm being thick here, but isn't this roughly
> equivalent to  making a stew in the style of chili, but without any
> peppers ?   Rye has a unique flavor that defines Roggen - no ?

I'll poke you (with a stick of course) if that's what you desire.

The 2004 BJCP guidelines for 15D Roggenbier state the Overall Impression 
as "A dunkelweizen made with rye rather than wheat, but with a greater 
body and light finishing hops."  So by calling it a millet roggenbier 
(hirsebier is probably more correct) I'm defining it as a roggenbier 
made with millet rather than rye (and barley or it wouldn't be gluten free).

When it was judged as a true roggenbier earlier this year in one of our 
bigger competitions it scored 111.5/150 so not too bad IMHO, not oily 
and needed more rye character were the comments from the judge who had 
sampled roggenbier in Germany - and he gave the highest score!

So you can make chilli without peppers (well roggenbier without rye 
anyway).  A fact of life with a gluten free diet.

> On gluten and !gluten
>
>>  Current research is focussed on identifying which of the 1000's of 
>> gluten peptides are toxic, no silver bullet yet.
>>   
>
> Wrong ! The culprit is primarily a 33-residue peptide with the 
> following amino
> sequence, LQLQPFPQPELPYPQPELPYPQPELPYPQPQPF .  This was
> published in Science ~2002.  Some lab studies show that breaking down 
> this
> protein dramatically reduces the T-cell response in rats.   Rats, 
> humans - hard to
> distinguish sometimes.  [[A decoder ring for the 1-letter abbrevs is here
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amino_acid ]]

Not wrong at all.  This article talks about one 33-mer peptide that 
shows a high toxicity if you have the HLA-DQ2 gene, it does not discount 
the existence of other toxic peptides (remember we are dealing with 4 
main grain varieties and their many variations), or deal with those 
coeliac disease sufferers with the HLA-DQ8 gene where the reaction is to 
different toxic peptides (sorry I don't have amino sequences to quote).  
Still no silver bullet, but slow and steady progress as we expect with 
medical research.

>> I'll stick to using malted gluten free grains - much easier, very 
>> tasty, and there is no chance of poisoning oneself.
>>   
>
> That's certainly the safe/sane course right now, but you might see big 
> changes
> in a few years.

Agreed, can't go wrong with the old malt, hops, water, yeast recipe!

About 10 years away for a "vaccine", so they say, so plenty of time to 
make "outside-the-box" beer.

Cheers, Andrew.
Ballarat, VIC, Australia.



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Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 23:03:58 +0100
From: Signalbox Brewery <signalbox.brewery at ntlworld.com>
Subject: Anhydrous salts

I've just learned - to my surprise - that the salt quantities calculated
by Promash are for the anhydrous salts; can anyone enlighten me
(so that I can pass it on to UK brewers) whether Beersmith
does the same?

Also, could somebody tell me the ratios I should apply to the
weights for the hydrates we use in practice?

Best regards

David Edge, Derby, UK



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