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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


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Contents:
  Re: maturation, heat sanitizing, and wheat beer yeast settling ("Greg 'groggy' Lehey")
  Kettle Ferment and Break Material ("Alexandre Enkerli")
  Re:Hop Plants too Old? ("Thomas Rohner")
  Vienna Standard (Pete Limosani)
  "Autio Grade" Cupper Tubing in wort chillers ("Scott and Lois Courtney")
  yeast settling and crash cooling (Matt)
  Beer-Lambert (mabrooks)
  GABF, hiking near Denver ("JONES,AARON K")
  2nd Annual MALT Turkey Shoot Homebrew Competition (Jack Mowbray)
  Oxy-acetylene torch source? ("Dave Draper")


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Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 13:31:29 +0930
From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" <grog at lemis.com>
Subject: Re: maturation, heat sanitizing, and wheat beer yeast settling

On Saturday,  9 September 2006 at 14:17:25 -0400, steve.alexander wrote:
> Matt asks ...,
>
>> 2. What about volatile phenols, such as the famous "clove" flavor in
>> german hefeweizen?  My guess: they don't age out.  I base this guess on
>> nothing, except that they are similar in structure to higher alcohols.
>
> 4VG - the weizen clove flavor - is unstable and has a half-life
> measured in months in stored beer.  It's somewhere far back in the
> archives but I posted a figure I ran across once - like 4 months at
> fridge temps, but that's a guesstimate.

I recently brewed a Weissbier with a very pronounced clove flavour
(also a little bit more banana than I had wanted, despite a
fermentation temperature of only 22<degree sign>).  I took it along to
a local brewery to show it off and... it had completely lost the
typical Weissbier flavour and just tasted like an inadequately hopped
ale.  This isn't the first time that this has happened, and the
brewery's not far away (about 15 km).  I've been wondering why; is it
possible that motion can have this kind of effect?  And if so, why my
beer, when Bavarian beers come half way round the world without losing
the flavour.

Greg
- --
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.


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Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 01:03:19 -0400
From: "Alexandre Enkerli" <enkerli at gmail.com>
Subject: Kettle Ferment and Break Material

Ken Anderson reports on his kettle fermentation:

> I'm able to seal my BK, so I simply cool, pitch, aerate, put the lid on and
> away it goes.  No messing around with sanitizing because the boil does that.
> Let me add I always use pellet hops, and they seem to be more easily
> contained.  They virtually disappear in the resulting yeast cake.

These are interesting points about the simplicity of the process. The
BruHeat electric boiler is allegedly meant to be used in a similar
fashion but I never attempted to ferment in it. Anyone tried to
ferment in a BruHeat or similar electric boiler? It could be a neat
trick for a short primary fermentation and a subsequent transfer to
secondary via the (really well-sanitized) spigot.

On break material, there seems to be an issue of protein content,
especially for hot break (which, IIRC, is mostly protein). We want to
retain some, but not all of the protein in the wort. If one is to do a
kettle ferment, would it be a good strategy to skim off the hot break
during the boil? There's probably enough protein remaining in the trub
as the beer sits on it. And it's easy enough to skim the hot break
prior to the first hop addition.

Cheers!

- --
Ale-X (Alexandre) in Montreal
http://enkerli.wordpress.com/


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Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 12:09:25 +0200
From: "Thomas Rohner" <t.rohner at bluewin.ch>
Subject: Re:Hop Plants too Old?

Hi Dave

when i remember correctly, the hop grower told me he changes the plants
every 10-15 years or so. The harvest reaches maximum in about 3 years and
then starts to decrease slowly, depending on your pruning the roots. I think
they would last much longer, but then the pro's choose new varieties that
are more resistent and or yield more alpha's or are superior in another way
compared to their ancestors.
(Pruning the roots is very important)

Cheers  Thomas




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Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 06:52:29 -0400
From: Pete Limosani <peteLimo at comcast.net>
Subject: Vienna Standard

Fellow Brewers,

Last fall, I brewed a Vienna. Made up a recipe with the help of Designing 
Great Beers and George Fix's VMO book. It was a rich malty beer and went 
quickly during the holidays. I just cooked up another one that should be 
ready for this year's holidays.

Currently, I'm low on home brew so Saturday I set out to buy some bottled 
beer for home for the first time in about 5 years. The store I went to had 
Paulaner's Octoberfest Marzen. I decided to buy it and see how mine stacked 
up. While I enjoyed the beer, I wasn't compelled to open another one.

Is there a gold standard in this category? When I brew Pilsners, I shoot 
for Pilsner Urquell--the obvious gold standard. My guess is one would win a 
number of competitions if one could come close to Pilsner Urquell.

Which Vienna/Marzen/Octoberfest should I hold up as my gold standard if I 
want to win in this category?

Is it likely that the Paulaner's that I bought would have tasted better 
when it went into the bottle than when it came out? Like 
green-bottle-Pilsner-Urquell does when distributors and retailers don't 
handle it properly? Or is Paulaner's just a bad choice for this style?

Your thoughts are much appreciated.




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Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 08:00:32 -0400
From: "Scott and Lois Courtney" <courtney03 at iquest.net>
Subject: "Autio Grade" Cupper Tubing in wort chillers

Here's a quick metallurgical question for all:

Came across a new 100' coil of new copper tubing on Ebay - Can the 3/8"
copper tubing sold as "auto grade" (?) be used in wort chillers?

I assume "auto grade" is the 90-10 Copper-Nickel alloy used in automotive
brake lines, which has a more corrosive resistance than the standard
refrigerator/plumbing type of copper tubing.

Assuming the copper tubing is new and did not have brake fluid (or anything
else) in it, Is there a problem using this type of copper tubing for a wort
chiller? Would there be an advantage?

Don't want to leach anything nasty into the wort while boiling the chiller
to sanitize...

Thanks,
Scott
Indy, IN







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Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 08:02:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: Matt <baumssl27 at yahoo.com>
Subject: yeast settling and crash cooling

Steve sez: "If your yeast run out of sugars while growth is still
possible, then they'll typically drop cleanly and fastest at the higher
temp."

 ...and this surprises me.  I can believe that inanimate particles will
drop through beer faster at warm temps than at cold temps, because the
beer is more viscous at cold temps (and probably for other reasons I
haven't thought of).

But if what Steve says is true, it begs the question "what is the point
of the crash-cooling step that is practiced by virtually all commercial
ale breweries in the US and Belgium."  (Not sure about England.)  I
understand that bottling filtered and force-carbonated beer is much
easier if the beer is very cold, but this does not explain either the
several day "lagering" period that is generally observed, nor why
crash-cooling is standard procedure even at breweries that
bottle-condition.

I always thought the reason for crash cooling is that it makes the beer
fall clear faster, because yeast are more apt to flocculate at cold
temps.  If you pitch the proper amount of a strain like Whitbread, it
probably doesn't matter.  But not every strain flocculates like
Whitbread, even in a healthy ferment.  I would expect less flocculant
strains to drop clear faster if the beer is cooled, and that this
effect could be significant even in a healthy ferment.  Is this not so?

To put it in practical terms, suppose I ferment an ale at 68 degrees,
and the fermentation proceeds with vigor until it suddenly stops at the
gravity I expect (i.e. the yeast are strong until the sugar runs out). 
However, the yeast is not highly flocculant and there is clearly still
some in suspension.  Will it clear faster if I leave it at 68 degrees
or if I drop it to 35?  Or is it so strain-dependent that the answer is
meaningless in general?

Matt





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Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 10:55:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: mabrooks <mabrooks12 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Beer-Lambert

Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2006 01:49:15 -0400
From: "Peter A. Ensminger" <ensmingr at twcny.rr.com>
Subject: Beer's Law

Much interesting discussion of Beer's Law in HBD #5052
 ...

Given all this, in addition to AJ's Guiness and
Oktoberfest data and John V's Beamish data, I think
the burden falls upon those who claim that filtered
and degassed beer "disobeys" Beer's Law. I have no
great desire to get a cuvette that is several feet
thick, just so I can test Beer's Law for a Bud Light.

- ---------------------------------------------------

Peter, and others interested in this post,


(FYI -  a solutions "color" is not an "analyte or
species", it is a result of:  an analyte reacting with
chemicals to produce a color of a certain wavelength,
or it is a result of pigments/dyes, other particles,
or other absorptive medium in solution. Singularly, or
together, all of these can add to the perceived color
of a solution).

Beers law is used to show, for an analyte/species in a
solution(see above definition) of interest, if
processed with the correct chemicals to effect a color
change, then the amount of color change will be
proportional to the analytes/species concentration in
the original sample/solution.  This is what Beers law
is used for....what everyone who uses a spec at 430nm
is doing is using Lamberts law....pass light through a
cuvette and see how much comes out the other side at
430 nm! How simplistic is that!

Just because one thinks he is seeing a linear
dependence does certainly not imply that "beer color"
responsible for it?  To my knowledge there is no
"concentration of an analyte/species" associated with
the color of beer, this would indicate that you could
change the concentration of something in the beer and
get more color out of it, I challenge anyone to tell
me the species/analyte that you can increase in beer
and get more color in your beer because of it!  Lets
face the facts, the color of beer is an artifact of
the amount and degree roasted malt one used to brew
with, amongst other reactions/processes that occur and
result in a color change, ie. Maillard reactions, boil
times, temps that cause scorching etc.... So if beer
color doesn't have a concentration, and I believe
everyone can agree that this is the case..then
something else in the beer may be causing any
perceived linear relationships being seen on a spec at
430nm...

Beers law has to have a "c" (species concentration)
associated with it! Hence the "c" in the equation, and
when you change the "c" you get more/less adsorption
at the "peak of maximum absorbance" for that
particular solution , and it is a linear change as
dictated by the Beers-Lambert law.

Matt B.
Northern VA.

Peter -

No need for a cuvette three feet thick, I have used,
and still use when I teach my water quality labs,
instrumentation called Klett-Summerson photoelectric
colorimeters.  You cant imagine the path length on
these buggers, and the sensitivity is amazing because
of it.

Here is a link to a pic -

http://www.hhmi.org/biointeractive/museum/exhibit98/content/e5info.html



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Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 14:16:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: "JONES,AARON K" <kjones1 at ufl.edu>
Subject: GABF, hiking near Denver

I'm headed out to Denver for the GABF on Friday, Sept. 29 and Sat. 
Sept. 30. I would like to meet some fellow HBDers while I'm out 
there.  Who else from the HBD is headed out to Denver?  Maybe we 
could cobble together a gathering of sorts, either at the festival 
(maybe a bad idea since we're all sure to be focused on our 
tasting) or at one of the myriad local breweries/brewpubs.

On a related note, the fiancee and I are looking to do some hiking 
on that Sunday.  We were thinking about heading over to Rocky 
Mountain National Park.  Any suggestions on great hikes in the 
area (we will probably have about 10 hours total time for 
driving/hiking so we can make it back to the airport).

Thanks,

Kyle





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Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 13:38:30 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jack Mowbray <jmowbray at verizon.net>
Subject: 2nd Annual MALT Turkey Shoot Homebrew Competition

Maryland Ale and Lager Technicians (MALT) are pleased to announce 
their 2nd Annual Turkey Shoot* Homebrew Competition. This will be a 
BJCP sanctioned event. 

Cash prizes will be awarded for the BOS entry as well as for the 2nd and 
3rd place entries. There will be sponsored prizes awarded to individual 
category winners.

The competition will be held Saturday, November 11th at Clipper City 
Brewing Company in Baltimore, MD. All BJCP beer categories will be 
accepted and the deadline for entries is November 4th.

Additional information, rules, entry forms, and bottle labels can be found 
on the MALT website: http://www.maltclub.org

We need BJCP accredited judges for this event.  Anyone interested in 
judging should contact:

Tim Sauerwein
sourwine at comcast.net


*no live poultry will be harmed during this event



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Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 15:14:10 -0600
From: "Dave Draper" <david at draper.name>
Subject: Oxy-acetylene torch source?

Dear Friends,

I'm in the market for a small oxy-acetylene torch setup to use in my 
laboratory, but figured I might be able to get a couple recommendations 
from folks here about good vendors who do business online for such things.  
Please email me with any input off-digest.

Many thanks, Dave in ABQ
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
David S. Draper, Institute of Meteoritics, Univ New Mexico
David at Draper dot name
Beer page: http://www.unm.edu/~draper/beer.html




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