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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


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Contents:
  RE: fusels and harshness ("Horzempa, Jack")
  Re: fruits and vegetables { (and what?) in beer } ("steve.alexander")
  SN Celebration Ale (JSC-NS\)[AND]" <steven.j.daniel@nasa.gov>
  Gump Time (& temp) ("steve.alexander")
  Dry yeast usage for different styles ("Lemcke, Keith")
  Brewing with Amarillo hops (David Thompson)
  Refrigerator vs. Freezer ("Janie Curry")
  Fort Collins Water Profile ("Janie Curry")
  Is Promash - The Sausalito Brewing Co. still around? ("Charlie")
  Re: Amarillo hops ("Brian Lundeen")


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Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 09:55:18 -0500
From: "Horzempa, Jack" <horzempa at drs-c3.com>
Subject: RE: fusels and harshness

I tried posting the below message last week (11/1/06).
Hopefully it will get posted this time.

I just wanted to provide some input to the discussion of fusels and 
'harshness' that has been ongoing on the HBD.

I have had numerous offline discussions with Fredrik and Peter Ensminger

on this topic. I want to thank both of them for their gracious 
consideration of my numerous questions and comments.
 

My primary motivation in this matter was curiosity on a Saison that 
I made this past summer (during a heat wave in the Philadelphia area);
the beer had a less than pleasant aroma/flavor. During my discussions 
with Fredrik and Peter I described my Saison as having a winy 
aroma/flavor. I would not personally describe it as 'harsh' but perhaps 
others would.


I was thinking that the problem was too much higher alcohols 
(i.e., fusels) since this beer was fermented under warm conditions 
(high 70's F), had a significant amount of candy sugar (3 lbs.), and
had a high OG (1.062). Of course the higher fermentation temperature 
could also have caused excessive ethyl acetate instead (or in addition 
to the fusels)? It may be worthy to mention that the yeast strain was
Wyeast 3787; Wyeast lists a recommended fermentation temperature of 
64 - 78 degrees F for this strain. I fermented near the upper limit 
of 78 degrees F.

 
During some research I became aware of the Beer Flavor Wheel which is 
on the Brewing Techniques web site. There is a description on this
wheel of an aroma/flavor of "Alcoholic (spicy/vinous)". The descriptor 
of vinous (or winy) is consistent with my perception of the unpleasant 
aroma/flavor in my Saison. Based upon this input I made the
'translation'
of vinous/winy = alcoholic = fusels. So, if indeed I have a fusel 
problem will it eventually mellow out? There is some input in the book 
by Al Korzonas (Homebrewing Volume I) which suggests that this could 
happen: "During aging, these higher alcohols will esterify in the 
presence of yeast and acids and create mostly fruity flavors." I
emphasized the aspect of "yeast" since I think this may be one 
distinguishing feature between a homebrewed beer vs. a commercial
beer (since most commercial beers do not have 'live' yeast in the 
bottle). In numerous posts by Steve Alexander (and some recent posts
 by Fredrik) there is discussion of chemistry which seems to indicate 
that it is unlikely that fusels will 'convert' to other compounds 
(e.g. esters). In my offline discussions to Fredrik I suggested 
that perhaps in a homebrewed beer the 'dynamics' of a beer mellowing
 may be more of a biochemistry phenomenon (vs. a 'regular' chemistry 
phenomenon) due the presence of yeast? Since I am not a biochemist 
(or a chemist) I do not have the academic background to postulate
 potential explanations to any of these phenomena.
 
I bottled my Saison the end of July (7/29/06). I tried another bottle
 last night (10/31/06) since I thought it might be appropriate to 
have a scary beer on Halloween night. To my surprise the winy 
aroma/flavor was gone from my Saison! It was actually an enjoyable
 beer to drink (after drinking one I wanted another). So, it
appears that after 3 months of aging the unpleasant aroma/flavor
has mellowed out. I must say, that I am quite pleased that this 
happened. I look forward to seeing how this beer 'evolves' over 
the next few months (I suspect that I will have consumed most of 
this beer by Christmas time). So, I can provide one more data point
 that an unpleasant beer can indeed mellow out with time.
 
So, the fundamental questions remain:

Was the unpleasant aroma/flavor due to excess fusels or excess
ethyl acetate (or perhaps both)? 
What is the explanation for why the fusels (or ethyl acetate or both)
 mellow with aging? 
 
Jack Horzempa

King of Prussia, PA



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Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 10:28:02 -0500
From: "steve.alexander" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: fruits and vegetables { (and what?) in beer }

Peter A. Ensminger wrote:
> I have always appreciated that botanists and cooks/chefs have 
> different opinions about fruits and vegetables.
It's a different but overlapping definition I think, just as the oil on 
your salad isn't the stuff from  container ships, tho' chemically ...
> For a botanist (I am one! BS & PhD), a fruit is the product of a 
> ripened ovary *and associated parts* [see Gleason & Cronquist, 1991, 
> "Manual of Vascular Plants" and a gazillion other sources]. Thus, the 
> pumpkin, strawberry, watermelon, gourd, banana, fig, lingonberry, 
> pepper, and tomato are all fruits to a botanist. In the kitchen, I 
> treat the pumpkin, gourd, pepper, and tomato as vegetables.
I accede to your technical definition and credentials Peter, although I 
have read other definitions that do not include the "associated parts" 
(clearly a 'too loose' definition).  So wheat germ, sunflower seed and 
walnuts are called 'fruit' in your household ?  Remind me NOT to sample 
the fruit punch at the Botanist's Ball !

Also since grains are clearly a fruit then all beers are fruit beers.  
Certainly this calls for a major revision of the beer style guidelines.

The point remains that the technical definition of "fruit" is not 
applicable in the kitchen or brewery.  The  word-wonks (not Peter) that 
insist on the dredging up the irrelevant fact that pumpkin or tomato are 
fruits should take up a more useful activity like emailing all the 
netizens who write "lose" with two "o"'s.

> Now that we're past pumpkin season and Thanksgiving season beckons, 
> how about some ideas for making a "cock ale"!?!
Please, let's call it "rooster ale" to avoid alternate definitions !   I 
think I'll pass on Peter's ale too  ;^)

 -S






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Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 09:57:13 -0600
From: "Daniel, Steven J. \(JSC-NS\)[AND]" <steven.j.daniel at nasa.gov>
Subject: SN Celebration Ale

Is Sierra Nevada Celebration Ale (aka HOPS DAMMIT!) bottle conditioned?
I noticed a fine layer of mung in the bottles of the newly released
batch, but I don't remember it being this way in the past.  The beer
tastes fine, so I'm not worried - just curious.  

Steve Daniel 
Test Safety Officer 
Anadarko Industries, LLC 
work (281) 244-5656 
fax (281) 483-3801 



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Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 11:29:53 -0500
From: "steve.alexander" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: Gump Time (& temp)

Sincere Thanks for Rob M for his notes on a beer that literally went from
worst to first.  But ... I don't quite understand ....

>>     The beer was brewed 12.31.05,  took the silver for B-wine  at
>> the 96 WBC
>>in June, then the Gold  at  the GABF  at  the end of September.

> > The beer continued to mellow for several years, though one could detect

 ...

>>I think Siebel called it  at  10.54 ABW when they analyzed it in 98.


Now the way I interpret the calendar the brew date, 12.31.05, was just over
10 months ago, so the comment that it improved for several years and that
it was tested in '98 indicates a pretty severe disturbance in the time-line.
More likely 1995-ish as I recall the Gump/Bosco scenario.  What year was it
brewed ?

I take it that this 24P=OG bruiser improved a lot in approximately 6 months.

Well huge barleywines are certainly problematic in many ways - the potential
for fusels and esters is huge.  Achieving good attenuation is usually
difficult.  The concentration of phenolics make this a potential problem.
They require massive hopping to offset the massive dextrin concentration.
And tho' beer is a very forgiving medium of expression to ply one's art, it
is also highly non-linear - with barleywines including several extremes.

This leaves me more puzzled than enlightened, since the time for improvement
was very very long and the factors more conentrated  making slow chemical
transitions more possible - and the other factor - temp was omitted.  What
were the storage temps like from brew to silver medal, Rob ?

Did the fining agent and time sediment some awful flavors ?  Did huge
time + storage temp  ester or fusel reaction to proceed ?  Fine data
point, but we need a few more.









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Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 12:11:25 -0500
From: "Lemcke, Keith" <klemcke at siebelinstitute.com>
Subject: Dry yeast usage for different styles

I am with the sales & marketing department of Danstar yeast, and I am
looking for input from brewers using our yeast varieties (Nottingham &
Windsor) as to the beer styles you have successfully brewed with these
strains. If you have any information you would like to share, please
forward it to me at klemcke at lallemand.com. The information will be kept
confidential and used only to build a better understanding of how home
brewers are using these products. 

Thanks very much. 

Keith Lemcke
Danstar & Lalvin Dry Yeast




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Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 13:07:40 -0600
From: David Thompson <david at dtphoto.com>
Subject: Brewing with Amarillo hops

Fred L Johnson asks:
 >I've finally gotten my first opportunity to brew with Amarillo hops and
 >I'm looking for a nicely balanced recipe that features this variety. I
 >know many of you would recommend a highly hopped IPA to show off these
 >hops, but I have been too often disappointed with my highly hopped
 >brews, so I'm really looking for something a little more tame.

 >Any suggestions for an American Pale Ale? What if I just substituted
 >these hops in my Sierra Nevada clone recipe (which is usually quite
 >good)?

I make a Texas Pale Ale with these hops.  Basically it's like Sierra 
Nevada...

11 lbs 2-row
1 lb of Munich dark
1/2 lb crystal 90.

Then I bitter with Magnum, which gives a silky smooth bitterness. Usually 
under an ounce of magnum.  I first wort hop an ounce of Amarillo...  and at 
flame out I drop in 2 more ounces.  Wonderful ale.

1.00 ounce Amarillo First Wort Hop
 .40 ounce Magnum 13.7% AA 60 minutes
2.00 ounce Amarillo at flame out


~Dave



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Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 22:01:11 +0000
From: "Janie Curry" <houndandcalico at hotmail.com>
Subject: Refrigerator vs. Freezer

I'm trying to decide whether it's best to purchase an upright refrigerator 
or an upright freezer for a lager cellar and kegerator for my garage 
brewery.  I've noticed a lot of discussion about converting freezers to 
lager cellars using external temperature controllers.  However, a number of 
posts to the HBD indicate that freezers will fail after a few years when 
used in this manner (shorter lifespan).  Several manufactures now make 
upright refrigerators with no top freezer (16 cu feet or more).  And, they 
state that the refrigerator can be used in a garage during winter weather 
(they have some sort of heater that prevents mechanical failure in cold 
climates).  So, would it be best to buy a refrigerator that would hold a 
corny keg or two, CO2 bottle, and possibly a carboy for primary fermentation 
and control it using an external temp controller?  Or, are freezers best 
suited for the job?

I've considered buying the Frigedare Kegerator, but it is only 11 cubic feet 
or so, costs $700, and is not designed for use in a garage in the winter.

Todd in Fort Collins
Liquid Poets Homebrew Club




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Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 22:50:34 +0000
From: "Janie Curry" <houndandcalico at hotmail.com>
Subject: Fort Collins Water Profile

I'd appreciate some help making sense of water chemistry analysis for Fort 
Collins CO.  I'm interested in brewing all styles of beer.  I don't have 
access to a balance or accurate set of gram scales (other than kitchen 
scales), so any recommendations for mineral additions will have to be in 
fractions of level teaspoons.  Here is what I have from the City of Fort 
Collins:

Alkalinity mg/L as CaCO3  37
Calcium mg/L  as CaCO3  42.4
Chlorate mg/L  <0.1
Chloride  mg/L 2.5
Chlorite mg/L  0.1
Hardness mg/L as CaCO3  48.8
pH  7.91
Sulfate mg/L 12.0
Iron ug/L  18.0

Should I add anything to the mash?  In previous brewing locations (Raleigh, 
NC and Boise ID and Turkey), I have had to adjust mash pH using food grade 
lactic acid.  Mash pH seems to self adjust here in Fort Collins (pH 5.3-5.5, 
sample taken from kettle just after mash in and cooled to room temp).  How 
about kettle additions?  How could I improve mouth feel for ales?

Thanks in advance.
Todd in Fort Collins
Liquid Poets Homebrew Club




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Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 17:01:19 -0600
From: "Charlie" <charlybill at aircanopy.net>
Subject: Is Promash - The Sausalito Brewing Co. still around?

Since my computer crashed and has been replaced I need to download Promash
again. Have been to the website but couldn't find where to download again.
My email address has changed since last time I visited the site. I have
tried contacting them but have not been able to get a reply from email or
phone calls, I have been trying for two weeks now. Does anyone know if they
are on holiday, closed for business or something?

 

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Charlie Walker

Old Okra Brewery

Lancaster, TX

Charlybill at aircanopy dot net




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Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 18:35:50 -0600
From: "Brian Lundeen" <blundeen at mts.net>
Subject: Re: Amarillo hops

> Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 23:02:07 -0500
> From: Fred L Johnson <FLJohnson52 at nc.rr.com>
> Subject: Amarillo hops
> 
> I've finally gotten my first opportunity to brew with 
> Amarillo hops and I'm looking for a nicely balanced recipe 
> that features this variety. I know many of you would 
> recommend a highly hopped IPA to show off these hops, but I 
> have been too often disappointed with my highly hopped brews, 
> so I'm really looking for something a little more tame.
> 
> Any suggestions for an American Pale Ale? What if I just 
> substituted these hops in my Sierra Nevada clone recipe 
> (which is usually quite good)?
> 

It can only improve it. Cascade... Spit!

One of my favorite recipes for an APA used Centennial and Perle for
bitterness and flavour, and Amarillo and Hallertau for flavour and aroma. As
the old recipe saying goes, add to taste.

I'm sure the style purists will take me to task for this, but I also like
using the citrusy hop varieties (well, not Cascade... Spit!) in Wits. Call
me an iconoclast, just don't call me late for happy hour.

Cheers
Brian, in Winnipeg, Canada (coordinates available if Jeff is still the
center of the homebrewing universe) with homage to a chalk-hating Kiwi



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