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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


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Contents:
  re: Wyeast "Lactobacillus Delbrueckii" (-s)
  re: malting wheat (-s)
  water ("A.J deLange")
  Milwaukee water (Joe Katchever)
  Lagering ("Gus Iverson")
  BABBLE Brew Off 2007 ("Dan Morey")
  Milwaukee Water ("Martin Brungard")


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Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 02:38:30 -0500
From: -s <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: re: Wyeast "Lactobacillus Delbrueckii"

MattB writes ...

>>I am looking for a good lactobacillus that will sour wort during
>>primary fermentation, and then leave it alone after that.  I have read
>>somewhere that l. brevis is the only lactobacillus that can hydrolyze
>>"dextrins" (someone please correct that if it's wrong).  Therefore, any
>>other strain should fit the "leave it alone after primary fermentation"
>>part.  I'd also like a homofermentative strain, since
>>heterofermentative bugs might change carbonation levels and produce
>>less lactic acid for a given amount of sugar.

Yes, you probably want a homofermentative lacto (like L.delbruckii)
The hetero's produce some ethanol & CO2 as well as lactic acid.  The
homofermenters produce a little CO2 by secondary pathways, but not
much.  The bigger deal is that the hetero's are much more vigorous
in an anaerobic environment.

Matt's comments about L.delbruckii producing a great deal of CO2
are disturbing and I'd like to hear a full explanation of that one.
Also many lactos are sensitive to hops and ... makes it problematic
to co-ferment.

Now here is the bit that has caused me to shake my head and grumble
when I read supposedly good books from supposed expert brewers, like
Warner's "German Wheat Beer", the old classic beer style text.  He
describes making a Berliner Weiss by adding L.delbruckii with yeast
at 15C, then cellaring the beer for 3 month in very cool conditions
(7C is suggested).  Here's the rub - nearly all lactobacillus have a
growth optima very near human body temperature (98F/37C), and many
including L.delbruckii will completely stop at 15C.

Most lacto's produce alpha-amylase, and many produce sufficient
extracellular AA to reduce starches.  These enzymes can produce
fermentable sugars.  A few rare lactos produce 1-6 'debranching'
enzymes , but this is a rare case.   I wouldn't worry greatly about
excessive attenuation, although there may be some.

So anyway I'd *suggest* that you consider making a separate unhopped
lacto fermentation with a few liters of wort.  I'd boil the heck out of
that sample, since the warm fermentation provides a nice opportunity
for DMS development.  Then use a cheap aquarium heater to keep the
lacto-ferment on the warm side  ~30C might be a good starting point.

I've used the aquarium heater before to make lacto cultures from
several sources and you can get a really sour effect this way.  I
had a poor early experience trying to grow lactos from raw grain
(DMS & diacetyl), and a much better effect from a plated out grain
culture.  Never tried yogurt, but the L.adidophilus has similar growth
conditions as L.delbruckii.  L.casei, also common in yogurt, ferments
a bit cooler.   My concern would be that a diactyl producer might
be unnoticed or even flavor positive in yogurt, but not beer -
a guess.

fwiw,
 -SteveA


Franklin was wrong: beer is proof that yeast have a two stage carbon
catabolism, and that humans prefer ethanol to starch.
 















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Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 03:45:38 -0500
From: -s <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: re: malting wheat

eric stiegman <stiegy at illicom.net>
Subject: malting wheat

>How does one determine when wheat if 
>properly modified? The barley float test does not seem to work

??? WTF ???

The only "barley float test" that I am aware of is used to remove
ungerminable barley before malting.   When you first soak grain
a small percentage of the seed will float, and these should be
discarded.

One traditional means of determining the degree of malt modification
is to cut a seed open lengthwise with a sharp knife and see how long
the acrospire is compared to the seed length. In barley when the
acrospire is 75%-100% of the seed length modification is complete.
I've never read a comprable figure for wheat, but you certainly don't
want an acrospire popping beyond the seed-end.  Chewing a few grains
will give you a sense too as the undermodified grains retain a hard
core.

Just an opinion, but I think far too much is made of the degree of
modification.   Without adding growth promoters or using
pneumatic malting methods, British PA malt used to require 17-20
days (at cool temps), and that is longer than I've ever used. 
Before ~1900 German malt used to be chitted for just 6-7 days.
IMO if you malt your barley for 10+ days and stop the germination
befreore things get carried away - then the only consequence is
that you'll want to use more extensive mashing.

Most enzymes are formed in the 1st 4-5 days and the only advantage
of longer chitting is more soluble protein and more easily
accessible starch.  If you want a malt that really deserves decoction,
then the only way to get is is by home-malting for under 7 days.
It's worlds different than any commercial malt.


>Has anyone ever found a textbook that is only about 
>malting?

No.  Malting & Brewing Science has as much coverage as any modern
brewing text, which is a couple chapters.   Some of the really old
brewing books (pre-1945) devoted a lot more space to malting.

 -S





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Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 12:51:02 +0000
From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: water

Joe Schwab posted his water analysis and requested comments on this 
water's suitability for Bohemian Pils and Helles. The salient numbers 
were total alkalinity of 99 mg/L as CaCO3, Ca at 35 mg/L and Mg at 11 
mg/L. These add up to a residual alkalinity of 80 ppm as CaCO3 which 
isn't too bad as long as you aren't brewing Boh Pils or Helles both of 
which are done with soft water. Without treatment this water will 
produce a mash tun pH higher than desireable. Furthermore, for these two 
styles, the sulfate (at 30 mg/L) is going to have an adverse effect on 
hops flavor. The simplest thing to do with this water for these styles 
is dilute it 4:1 with deionized water or 5:1 with reverse osmosis water 
(1 part tap water, 4 or 5 parts treated water). IOW brew with 
essentially deionized water and rely on the tap water to provide traces 
of the minerals required by the yeast. Mash pH may still require some 
tweaking by any of the usual methods (if acid is used make it 
hydrochloric rather than sulfuric).


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Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:20:27 -0600
From: Joe Katchever <joe at pearlstreetbrewery.com>
Subject: Milwaukee water

Joe Schwab writes:

"{I'm an extract brewer who has recently transitioned to all-grain
brewing. I'm using my municipal water from the city of Milwaukee and
am interested in getting opinions on what I would need to do to the
water (if anything) to optimize brewing the kinds of beers I like
(mostly light lagers like Bohemian Pilsners and Munich Helles)."

Well Joe, I used to brew beer in Milwaukee and found that the
tapwater was excellent for brewing beers, especially light lagers.
I discovered that keeping control of my pH was a factor that lead
to far better beer. Keep it leaning towards the 6.5 pH and below
helps. A couple of drops of Phosphoric or some brewing salts will
dramatically change your beer. When brewing light beers (in body
and color and alcohol), it is especially crucial to pay attention
to the water. There is no significant hop or malt presence to mask
the water profile. 
I've noticed that the historical beer towns, like Milwaukee, have
good water for brewing. No small coincidence, I'm sure. I brew out
in La Crosse, Wisconsin (home of the former G. Heilleman Brewery,
now City Brewery - Old Style, Special Export, etc. ) now and have
found the well water out here to be exceptional for brewing. It's
lucky for us, because I used to brew up in the Rocky Mountains and
found the water to be very soft. Forget to tweak your water up there
and you'll find your beer flat and lifeless. 
On another note, you should make your way over to the Milwaukee Ale
House on Water Street For their Mid-Winter Brew fest on February
11th. There will be a mass of great Wisconsin beers on tap,
including some of mine. If you want some of your homebrew critiqued,
there will be dozens of brewers there. A great party. I will be
there, swiggin' many good beers and eating some famous Milwaukee
knockwurst, too.
Cheers,
Joe Katchever
Pearl Street Brewery
La Crosse, Wisconsin

- -- Joe Katchever Pearl Street Brewery La Crosse, Wisconsin

- -- 
Joe Katchever
Pearl Street Brewery
La Crosse, Wisconsin




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Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:55:05 -0800
From: "Gus Iverson" <gus.iverson at gmail.com>
Subject: Lagering

I'm hoping to try my first lager brew this weekend. I've got a couple
questions before I begin or even decide to move forward with this
project.

I'm in the Seattle area and do not have a lagering fridge either for
fermentation or cold lagering. My plan, should I move forward with
this project is to put the fermenter outside with a jacket, heater and
temperature controller w/probe in a thermowell. High temperatures in
the area aren't forecast to be above the low 50s for the next couple
of weeks and I should be successful in maintaining a fermention
temperature around 48* or perhaps even a touch lower based on the
fermenter's thermal mass and adequate insulation. This setup should
also allow me to do a decent diacetyl rest by raising the temperature
via the controller around day 12 of the fermentation.

What I can't guarantee is true cold lagering. I could, I suppose, drop
one of the taps in my keggerator (4 taps but room for only 4 cornies
in it and I don't believe there's room for a fermenter - it's an 8.8
cf kenmore chest unit) and lager in there but I'd rather not if I can
help it. What I could do is keep the fermenter outside or in the
garage and lager around 40-45 degrees.

Is this cold enough to pass as lagering? What kinds of problems might
I expect with these limitations?

My plan is to produce a Munich / Vienna lager based on a recipe I'm
developing from reading "Designing Great Beers". This will be an all
grain beer and I'm planning to use dry lager yeast as I haven't had
time to procure liquid yeast to do my traditional stir plate starter.
(If I end up brewing an ale this weekend instead, I will be using dry
yeast for the same reason).

I'm planning to buy ingredients this afternoon or evening so direct
replies would be helpful to save time...

My basic plan if I move forward:

Brew Sunday, cool beer to the 50s before pitching at least 2 packets
of rehydrated dry lager yeast, apply heater and jacket, place
fermenter outside (expected ambient temperatures in the low to mid
30s). Set temperature controller for ~45-47*s depending on what I
think the weather is going to do.

Ferment for ~12 days, watching airlock activity. When it starts to
slow considerably, raise temperatures slowly into the 60s. Hold there
for 2 days, rack to secondary.

Drop temperatures back down into 40s, likely placing fermenter in
Mylar bubble wrap jacket in my garage to keep temperatures constant.
Leave there for up to 4 weeks.

Rack to corny, either leave in garage, beg for fridge space from
someone, or place in keggerator and lament the loss of variety on tap.
Leave for several weeks, or as long as I can ignore the thing.
Preferably, wait for some warmer weather to enjoy my nice clean lager.

Next year, I'm going to try to start this kind of project sometime in
the November time frame, depending on what the weather is doing (or if
I've added refrigeration by then, sooner).

Thoughts? Thanks in advance.


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Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 18:20:09 -0600
From: "Dan Morey" <dan-at-morey.us at comcast.net>
Subject: BABBLE Brew Off 2007

BABBLE and Flatlander's Restaurant and Brewery are proud to present the 
BABBLE Brew Off 2007. The Brew Off is once again a stop on the Midwest Home 
Brewer of the Year Circuit http://sphbc.truthbrew.com/mwhboy/. Our 
competition has steadily grown, reaching 199 entries in 2006 with entries 
from coast to coast. We are also please to announce the return of the 
Entrant Appreciation Drawing. One entrant will be selected at random to 
receive a special gift package. Each entry qualifies you, so the more you 
enter the better your chances of winning.

The Brew Off will be held Saturday February 24th at Flatlander's Restaurant 
and Brewery in Lincolnshire, IL. Judging will start at 9:00 am. If required 
a special judging session the Friday evening before the event will be held. 
We are seeking judges and stewards to help with this event. Those interested 
can reach any of the Brew Off staff at babble_brewoff at comcast.net.

Entries will be accepted February 1st through the 15th. The first entry is 
$7, with each additional entry being $5. There are several drop off 
locations in the Chicagoland area. Entries can be shipped to Flatlander's 
(do not use US Postal Service, Flatlander's will not accept entries By US 
mail). Full details, rules, and entry forms can be found at the BABBLE 
website http://www.babblehomebrewers.com.

For all that participate good luck and thank you!

Prosit,
Dan Morey
BABBLE Brew Off 2007 - Judge Director
http://www.babblehomebrewers.com 



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Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 17:13:12 -0900
From: "Martin Brungard" <mabrungard at hotmail.com>
Subject: Milwaukee Water


Joe,

You have pretty good water to work with.  There is a reason why Milwaukee is 
a home to beer!

A check of the water report you provided from the Milwaukee Water Works 
indicates that everything balances almost perfectly, so the report is 
believable.  The Residual Alkalinity for the Milwaukee water calculates out 
to 68 ppm.  Only slightly too high for the light and pale style you like to 
brew.  The flavor ions: sodium, chloride, and sulfate are all relatively 
low, so you can start out with a relatively clean palate and build flavor as 
needed.

For the light styles that you want to brew, it will help to drop the 
alkalinity just a bit.  It appears that it will take about 1/8 tsp of 88% 
lactic acid in 5 gallons of mash water to drop the alkalinity and resulting 
mash pH into the desired 5.2 to 5.4 range for a light beer.

For the sparge water, you will only have to add 1/2 tsp of 88% lactic to 
bring the sparge water pH to about 5.7.  Be sure to pick up one of those 
graduated medicine droppers to measure the very small amounts of acid that 
you need in this water.  With the very minor amount of acid you need in this 
water, lactic acid flavor should not be detectable.

With the minor Residual Alkalinity in this starting water, amber and light 
brown beers will not require any acidification in the mash water.  Darker 
beers will probably need chalk or baking soda to keep the mash pH from 
dropping too low.  Please note that you should always acidify your sparge 
water as indicated above.

I remember Milwaukee fondly.  I spent 2 lovely weeks working there in the 
summer many years ago.  On my last day in town, I also managed to catch 
Summerfest.  My buddies then took me to some old German bar on the South 
side of town and they managed to get me toasted by drinking from the 'boot'. 
  I was still toasted by the time I landed in Atlanta and I managed to get 
on the wrong plane and ended up in the wrong place.  So much for airline 
sercurity in the old days.


Martin Brungard
Tallahassee, FL



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