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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


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Contents:
  CO2 Tank filling in the Ann Arbor Michigan Area ("Joe Van Loon")
  Re: dextrins/mouthfeel/body ("-s.alexander")
  Re: Malt Color Assignments (Geoff Cooper)
  CO2 Pressure for Mild ("A.J deLange")
  re: beer line question (Nathaniel Lansing)


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Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 00:23:07 -0500
From: "Joe Van Loon" <joevanloon at comcast.net>
Subject: CO2 Tank filling in the Ann Arbor Michigan Area

Fellow Detroit Metro brewers, please help.

 

I've got two tanks, a relatively bright and shiny (brushed, actually) 5
pounder and a well-used 20 pound bottle.  Just recently got back into the
brewing scene and am looking for a place near work to get bottles filled
during the lunch break or after work - usually 5:30ish.

 

While carbonating a brew from a recent session, I got caught up in my other
day-to-day committments and failed to realize that the "out" poppet stuck
and leaked the remainder of my CO2 from the 20 Lb. tank.  Oops.  Hate to
learn those lessons twice.

 

I live in Union Lake and work in East Ann Arbor (Plymouth road and Dixboro),
so anyplace near there or between Ann Arbor and Canton would be optimal.  I
don't mind dropping off and picking up, but would like to hold on to the
nicer small bottle since I paid the premium to buy it new a few years ago.

 

Thanks in advance for any info.

 

Regards,

 

Joe Van Loon




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Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 06:10:54 -0500 (EST)
From: "-s.alexander" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: dextrins/mouthfeel/body

Aaron Martin Linder sez;

> I have been told that if one dissolves dextrins in water and tastes the
> solution it has little flavor, perhaps a very subtle effect in a beer at
> best.  However, is it really true that dextrins have no effect on
> mouthfeel/body?  Are body and mouthfeel the same thing in terms of
> drinking a beer?  Are they really measures of viscosity?  It would be
> interesting to have a method for analysis of mouthfeel, such as viscosity,
> and test two beers mashed at different temps to see if they are different.

Very good questions Aaron, and I have no direct answers.

Dextrin has very little flavor - it is neither sweet enough to notice, nor
does it 'taste' starchy.  Completely unnoticeable to beer flavor I think.

I have a disagreement with any attempt to directly equate viscosity and
mouthfeel.   Astringency is a clear example of a mouthfeel which is not
related to viscosity.  Viscosity is an aspect of mouthfeel but ...

I have an open question to add to the heap - how do humans sense viscosity
?   I doubt there is any very direct measure and perhaps it is a secondary
variable - like surface tension that we actually sense.  Obviously if you
have maple syrup or a thick gravy there is enough viscosity to
mechanically sense; but adding a fraction of 1% dextrins - I wonder what
it is that we sense (if anything).

There ale also some very strange changes in viscosity wrt %alc and it is
entirely possible that dextrins in a beer *may* have a disproportionate
impact on visocity, as compared to dexrtins in water.

I agree that something is vey strange here and in need of a better
explanation.

 -S in stockholm





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Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 12:40:15 +0000
From: Geoff Cooper <G.A.Cooper at greenwich.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Malt Color Assignments

</lurk='off'>

Hi folks,

May I introduce myself. I usually respond to the name Geoff and for  
those who have been reading this digest for some time, yes I am the  
same Geoff Cooper who last sent a message back in 1994. I left the  
digest for some time - combined pressure of work and declining signal  
to noise ratio - but started reading again a few years back. I have  
found many interesting articles: thanks steve (-S), Fred,  
Frederick .. the list is long.

But then up came one message where it looks like I can help.

On 5 Feb 2007, at 04:00, Fred L Johnson wrote:
> I'm still looking for the EBC method of mashing used to assign malt
> color. Does anyone know if it, too, is 50 g grain/450 g total mash
> weight?

The copy of the Institute of Brewing's 'Recommended Methods of  
Analysis' that I have to hand is dated 1991 - so assign the  
appropriate level of doubt, methods will have been refined.

The short answer is yes and no.

The long answer is:

Under "2.5 Colour" is says "Filtered wort is prepared from the test  
malt using IOB method 2.4 (Malt, Hot Water Extract)"

Summary of 2.4:
Grind the grist and adjust weight to 50 +/- 0.05g
Add 360 +/- ml distilled water ... initial mash temperature of 65 +/-  
0.2 oC
Hold mash at 65 +/- 0.2 oC for exactly 1 hr.
After 1 hour cool the mash to 20 +/- 0.5 oC and exactly 25 minutes  
from [after] the end of mashing, adjust the weight of the mash to 450g
*Alternatively* transfer the cooled mash through a funnel ... make up  
the contents to 515 ml
Filter

Now returning to 2.5 Colour
Colour values are always expressed as if the mash is made up to 515  
ml. For 450 g mashes correct the colour to 515 ml using the formula:

   Colour (515 ml) = colour (450 g) x 0.8661/SG

where SG is the specific gravity of wort from 450 g mash

The use of a 'tintometer' is described using illuminant B of CIE

As an aside:
For Beer colour
   Colour (EBC units) = A x f x 25
where A = absorbance at 430 nm in 10mm cell
       f = dilution factor

Hope that helps

Geoff
</lurk='on'>


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Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 13:18:57 +0000
From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: CO2 Pressure for Mild

At 38F at sea level the volumes of gas dissolved in beer is Vols = 1.45 
+ 0.12*PSIG. Thus at the proposed pressure of 6 psig equilibrium would 
be at a little less than 2.17 volumes. This is above the amount of gas 
which would be dissolved in a cask conditioned ale stored at cellar 
temperature which has finished "working" and which has had the spile 
removed for serving. Equilibrium with 1 atmosphere of CO2 at 45F is 
about 1.3 volumes but ale served at that level of condition is 
traditionally served throuh a hand pump, perhaps through a sparkler, and 
it is that  which puts the fine, creamy head on a pint. Poured through a 
conventional faucet you would have a pretty flat, unappetizing pint (muy 
opinion). So 6 psi at 38F is probably a good starting point but expect 
to have to experiment to get exactly the pour you want.

Note that there are a couple of "ale faucets" on the market some of 
which have restrictor plates built in and some of which perturb the 
flowing beer in some other way in order to force the gas out of 
solution. You may or may not find these satisfactory. In my personal 
experience (never really liked the pours from the special faucets with 
the exception of a Guiness faucet) the best way to draw ale is through 
an engine. When using one of those approximately 1 atmosphere (0 psig) 
CO2 is about the right level. Personally I like a bit more condition and 
so keep the beer at 35F (way too cold but that's what my cooler is set 
for - I lager in there) in kegs with a couple (4-6) pounds of pressure 
on it. When I serve the beer I bleed the CO2 in the keg to atmospheric 
before opening the valve to the engine. As the beer is a little over 
conditioned there is a some breakout in the line but after the first 
pint or so this problem goes away.

If you wanted to keep 1 atomosphere on a keg there is a device called a 
"rebreather" which is like the second stage of a SCUBA regulator. It 
passes gas on demand (like Le Petomaine) i.e. when the pressure in the 
keg drops because a pint is drawn it lets in enough CO2 at atmospheric 
pressure to replace it. As I noted above this is a little too lifeless 
for me but many people use them.

A.J.


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Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 10:06:07 -0500
From: Nathaniel Lansing <delbrew at compuserve.com>
Subject: re: beer line question

At 38 degrees 1.7ish volumes CO2 is 3 lbs gauge; about 1 foot of
1/16 ID.  It with be easier to change the temperature rather than 
the physical set up. At 6 lb/2feet line bring the temperature to ~45F.
That should pour happily, and a more suitable temperature for
a "British type" dispense anyway.
   The problem lies mostly in the gauges when you at low pressures,
the error becomes a larger part of the reading.  So what reads 3 lb
could maybe really be 4.5 or vice versa. I consider gauges a start
point , then tweak to the proper pouring.



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