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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  First Gold Hops (Fred L Johnson)
  Re: First Gold Hops (Signalbox Brewery)
  BJCP Elections (Ed Westemeier)
  RE: roasty vs. toasty ("steve.alexander")
  re: Insanity ("steve.alexander")
  re: wine yeast (-s)
  Call for judges - Great Lakes NHC 1st Round ("Formanek, Joe")
  Call for judges/stewards AHA Midwest Regional April 20-21 (Thomas Eibner)


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Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 12:26:19 -0400
From: Fred L Johnson <FLJohnson52 at nc.rr.com>
Subject: First Gold Hops

I recently brewed an English style IPA with Kent Goldings and First 
Gold hops. First Gold is apparently an up-and-coming English variety 
that has gained much popularity in the UK. My IPA came out so-so. I'm 
not very happy with the hop flavor in this beer and I was wondering if 
others among use, especially our English cousins, have had good 
experiences with this hop. Perhaps there are some commercial beers that 
have used this hop from which I could get a good idea of this hop's 
potential.

Anyone out there know much about First Gold or beers with this hop?

Fred L Johnson
Apex, North Carolina, USA



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Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 14:09:31 +0000
From: Signalbox Brewery <signalbox.brewery at ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: First Gold Hops

Fred asks about First Gold hops. I can't say it had ever occurred to
me that anyone in the US would wish to brew with this hop.
Its advantage to the UK home brewer is that it is a dwarf hop with a
British flavour profile (the Gold is a reference to Goldings) and as a
dwarf can be grown easily at home (The version sold for home use is
called Prima Donna).

Thus people who think it is wonderful are generally those experiencing
the joys of very fresh hops for the first time. The only commercial
brewer who uses First Gold and makes a point of it as far as I know
is Brendan at Iceni and he uses them because he can grow them
at the brewery.

My own view on hops is perhaps heterodox, but I believe that freshness
is more important than variety. If I could get a source of really fresh /
well preserved Fuggles, Styrians, Cascade and Tettnang I wouldn't
bother with anything else. OK, maybe Pacific Gem too.

Perhaps I can piggyback a question onto this? Someone at the
brew club produced an astonishingly bitter beer. He had used home-
grown hops and claimed he'd read that they have perhaps a quarter
of the bitterness of commercial ones, so he'd used four times as much.
I responded that the lower alpha figure was when wet; and he didn't
believe me. Does anyone know of anyother  reason why a home-grown
hop would have substantially lower acid than commercial?

David Edge, Derby UK



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Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 18:25:47 -0400
From: Ed Westemeier <hopfen at malz.com>
Subject: BJCP Elections

If you're a BJCP member in the North, Northeast, or Mountain/ 
Northwest regions, this is your year to elect your regional  
representative to the BJCP Board of Directors (the other four regions  
will get their chance next year).

You'll find a link on the home page (www.bjcp.org) that will take you  
to the candidate statements and a link to our online voting  
application. Please choose your preferred candidate and cast your  
vote before the end of next month.

Ed Westemeier
BJCP Communication Director
communication_director at bjcp.org



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Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 04:05:02 -0400
From: "steve.alexander" <steve-alexander at adelphia.net>
Subject: RE: roasty vs. toasty


David Houseman writes ...

<DH>
[...] To me there's a continuum of maillard reaction that goes
from one extreme to the other.  Where the line is crossed may be somewhat
subjective.  Toasty is like smelling freshly toasted bread.  It's a rich
graininess.  Vienna malt has toastiness.  If you put pale malt in the oven
until it smells like baking bread the resulting beer is toasty.   
Roastiness
is a much darker char.  Coffee if roasty.   Toast that burns in the toaster
is roasted.  Chocolate, black and roasted barley fall into roastiness.
It's more acrid, coffee, burnt.
</DH>

Maillard reactions are a very very complex set of reactions between
reducing sugars and amino acids and generally these peak (in rate) around
100-130C.  The the mix of amino acids, the specific sugars, the ratio of
these, the amount of moisture and of course the temp & pH have a great
impact on the products.  Simpler fragments appearing at high-pH, at
intermediate pH a set of heterocyclic that would be more aromatic and
also more associated with "toast" including a range of methylated
pyrazines.  At low pH (~5) there is less nitrogen in the heterocyclic
rings (still S & O) but some of these low pH products are among the most
flavorful known.  I was recently reading about a "maple furanone" that
has a detection threshold of just 0.00001ppb.  Of course the relation
between pH and products isn't an on-off function.

At higher temps, approaching 200C and beyond, the carbon-carbon bond
are quite unstable and we get "char", sometimes called pyrrolysis
and the products can be quite unpleasant.

Most HBers are not careful to distinguish between Maillard reactions
and other non-enzymatic browning reactions such as caramelization and
the browning that occurs between heated fats & proteins.   Some of
the products overlap but it's not the same.

Taking David's example of toasted bread a bit farther ... bread is a 
baked product where the interior temp reaches perhaps 100C/212F, while
the exterior sits in an oven with a controlled temp around 200C/392F,
yet the exterior surface is protected from charring by the evolution
of a lot of water vapor at just above 100C.  Rather miraculously the
surface of the bread forms a very pleasant crust rather than a very
unpleasant char.  The same cannot be said for the dry cornmeal grit
which falls away from the source of moisture -  as it chars to an
unpleasant flavor in the same oven.    So later the bread is sliced
and we attempt to make the pale and less flavorful interior match
the flavor and crunch of the crust in a common toaster.   The
temperature is poorly controlled and the moisture in the slice is
less and depleted rapidly.   So as we toast bead first a pale tan
color appears at the surface parts nearest the radiant heat; then an
overall tan color which darkens with time,; and then rather rapidly
into a black char surface with an unpleasant and dominant flavor.
It seem clear that the moisture can keep the temperatures in a good
"Maillard range" but as the toast dries this becomes less effective
and ... char.

Also note that the definitively toasty flavor appears in white wheat
flour breads which have only modest FAN and simple sugars and are
primarily starch.  There doesn't seem to be much there for the
Maillard reactions to work with.

So it's not surprising that the patent associated with black patent
malt is a means of controlling the roast conditions to avoid the nasty
char effect.

Soy flavor is IMO a poor comparison to malt Maillards.  Yes soy is
a grain product w/ Maillard compnents, but the dominant salt and
umami flavors are foreign to malt and beer.

I agree that  Vienna malt has a toasty component, but also a lot
of others Maillard flavors which cloud the picture.

I suspect that toasting malt in the oven would be effective, but I
also think that the classic "toasty" flavors in baked goods is not
particularly unstable - so it should appear in commercial malts.
My approach would be to toast slightly dampened light wheat malt in
the oven ~350F - but that's just a guess.

fwiw
 -S






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Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 05:33:14 -0400
From: "steve.alexander" <steve-alexander at adelphia.net>
Subject: re: Insanity

A.J deLange writes ....

,If you want further discussion of insanity and home brewing I can ask 
,Mrs A.J. to get on here and type a paragraph or two. While I'm sure her 
,comments would touch on the nature, size and number of brewing vessels 
,on the premises here I have to say that I have met Jeff, Steve and 
,Calvin personally and they all seem to be quite sensible guys to me. 

Well we would seem sensible to you AJ!  I appreciate the sentiment,
but "sensible" and "insanity" are a relative terms and when they come
from an HBer with an oscillating U-tube apparatus and a residential
furnace for a boiler I'm afraid they don't count for very much.  My
budget stopped at a used spectrometer and an array of pH meters.

Mrs.-S would also leave an enlightening post about my several
marginally successful attempts to grow a 1/4 acre of malting barley
and even more troublesome the successful rye crop.  Also the
ill-advised drying of home made malt many years ago in the
(formerly nice) clothes drier and perhaps the ~180 linear feet of
hops mounds in the far-field would bear mention.  She might note
the remnants of last seasons hops still hang in the hop-kiln (aka
garage).  I think she has gotten used to idea that I blow the
equivalent price of an RT ticket to Europe on tech books every so
often.

I don't think the asylum inmates get a vote on this topic,
 -S




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Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 06:01:18 -0400
From: -s <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: re: wine yeast

I appreciate Raj's post on his use of wine yeast as he points out some 
of the issues.  Many wine yeast are S.cerevisae (just a variation on ale 
yeast) but there are metabolic difference and these are nontrivial.  
They may produce very high ester levels, but also higher fusel levels, 
as fusels are more effectively hidden in the stronger wines flavors.  
The harmony yeast Raj mentioned includes S.cerevis, Torulaspora, 
Kluyveromyces.  These last two are an entirely different yeasts which 
sometimes appear in wine fermentation.  Also wine yeast will produce a 
somewhat different spectrum of minor organic acids and this gives the 
beer fermented with wine yeast a very different and more wine-y 
flavor.    It might be worthwhile to try a wine yeast for a high gravity 
ferment, but the outcome may be too  un-beer-like.  As a rule expect 
ale-like flavor profiles with a sharper acidity and more secondary 
flavors.   Personally I'm not a fan of the idea.  Brewers historically 
selected brewing yeasts for a reason.

Now one interesting exception is that champagne yeast (S.bayanus) is a 
close cousin of lager yeast.  A number of years ago I was using 
champagne yeast (maybe it was during the Cl*nitest wars) for forced 
fermentation of worts and I must say that the resulting beer  samples 
were quite tasty.   I could easily imagine using champagne yeast in a 
biere blanche, and perhaps even a light wheat beer (no 4VG flavor mind 
you).  It might even produce a decent lager at low temps, but is quite 
clean at room-temps.  Even so champagne yeast leaves a different and 
somewhat unfamiliar "acidic smack" on the beer.

 -S



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Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 07:40:25 -0600
From: "Formanek, Joe" <Jformanek at griffithlaboratories.com>
Subject: Call for judges - Great Lakes NHC 1st Round

Greetings Homebrewers,

This is the first call for judges and stewards for the NHC Great Lakes
Region 1st round judging. The event will be held on Friday April 27th
(evening), and Saturday April 28th, 2007 (morning and afternoon at
Walter Payton's Roundhouse/America's Brewpub in beautiful downtown
Aurora, IL. 
In addition, if necessary, there will be some judging flights taking
place earlier that week at another venue in Chicago.  Details on that
later in interested.

Some discount lodging accommodations will be made available for those of
you traveling from nearby states at an adjacent hotel - alternatively,
some beds for brewers will also be available.

For those of you interested in a little casino action, the Hollywood
Casino is within walking distance of the competition venue.

If you are available to judge or steward, please contact Joe Formanek,
Judge Coordinator via email at jformanek at griffithlaboratories.com. Hope
to see you then!!

Cheers!

Joe Formanek
NHC Great Lakes Region Judge Coordinator



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Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 13:47:11 -0600
From: Thomas Eibner <thomas at stderr.net>
Subject: Call for judges/stewards AHA Midwest Regional April 20-21

(ATTENTION: THE JUDGE DATES HAVE CHANGED FROM THE ORIGINALLY ADVERTISED
DATES DUE TO FACILITY CONFLICTS)

Judges and Stewards,

This is a call for judges and stewards for the AHA Midwest Regional 1st
2007.

Judging for the AHA Midwest Regional 1st round will be held on the 20th
and 21st of April 2007.

Location:
Roseville VFW Post 7555
1145 Woodhill Dr
St Paul, MN 55113

Schedule:

Friday April 20th two sessions:
3:00PM and 7:00PM
(Dinner served between flights)

Saturday April 21st three sessions:
9:00AM, 1:00PM, and 3:30PM.
(Lunch Served before 1:00PM session - No food served prior to 9:00 AM
session, plan accordingly.  No sponsored meal plans after judging last
session.  In process of planning a post-judging event of some kind)


If judging is finished on Saturday the results will be announced after
the last flight - if not there will be more flights during the following
week.

To sign up for judging/stewarding please send an email to:
thomas at stderr.net
Indicate which sessions you are interested in judging/stewarding in.
Include categories you can not judge due to having entries in the
competition.

For out of town judges the closest hotel is:

Country Inns & Suites by Carlson
2905 Snelling Ave N
St Paul, MN
(651) 628-3500

 Thanks,

Curt Stock - Organizer
Thomas Eibner - Judge Coordinator


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