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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


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Contents:
  bleach and stainless (David Scheidt)
  Stainless and Chlorine/Evanescent Flavors ("A.J deLange")
  bottling, off flavors after months (leavitdg)
  Re: Uh oh, I soaked my 20 qt stainless pot with bleach... (Dion Hollenbeck)
  re: off flavors after months ("Spencer W. Thomas")
  Re: Uh oh, I soaked my 20 qt stainless pot with bleach... (Jeff Renner)
  Bleach and Stainless steel ("Tom Clark")
  Re: bottling, off flavors after months (Jeff Renner)
  Re: bottling, off flavors after months (Derric)


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JANITORs on duty: Pat Babcock (pbabcock at hbd dot org), Jason Henning,
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Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 00:17:25 -0500
From: David Scheidt <dscheidt at panix.com>
Subject: bleach and stainless

> Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 09:25:51 -0500 (EST)
> From: "Jim Bates" <jim at midlo.us>
> Subject: Uh oh, I soaked my 20 qt stainless pot with bleach...
> 
> I'm a new homebrewer (on my 4th batch) and realized that I've
> been cleaning/soaking my stuff in my stainless pot with a light
> bleach solution before/after each brewing/bottling event.
> I've recently read that I should "NEVER" use bleach with any
> stainless steel as it causes "bad things".
>
> I've been trying to figure out what kind of "bad things" have
> happened. m also wondering if I should purchase a new 20 qt
> pot for my wife :)
>
> Any help/comments regarding what happens to stainless would be
> really appreciated!

Chlorine bleach, in high concentrations, and long exposure, can 
cause corrosion, staining and pitting.  The pits can provide surfaces
that are hard to sterilize.  Areas around welds, rivets, and the like
are particularly at risk.  How big a risk depends on what alloy the
pot is.  Assuming you're using a standard household
bleach, well diluted, I don't think I'd worry about it.  Rinse well.
If it'll make you sleep easier, use something else.




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Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 09:04:12 -0500
From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: Stainless and Chlorine/Evanescent Flavors

Chlorine attacks stainless and can corrode it which means that it 
attacks the passivation layer. The problem should go away if you stop 
using bleach and clean the pot thoroughly to remove any and everything 
(bleach residue, water salts) which may remain. Dry thoroughly. Exposure 
to the air should result in re-passivation. If you want to insure that 
repassivation takes place fill with a nitric acid solution and allow 
that to soak for a few hours.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
There are chemical reactions taking place in beer throughout its life. 
Many of these are not ones we would choose such as oxidation reactions 
which lead to staling, the fading of hops character, splitting of 
isohumulone molecules by light photons and so on. Cold retards (general 
rule of thumb: chemical reaction rates double for each 4 C increase in 
temperature) these and cold (and dark) is the answer to long beer life. 
My beers, for example, go straight from fermenter to keg to cooler where 
they sit at 36F. I'm amazed at how good "unstable" beers (e.g. Weizens) 
taste even after a year. Exclusion of oxygen helps too.


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Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 09:23:38 -0500
From: leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: bottling, off flavors after months

Michael;

 "  After storing the
beer in what is largely a warm, dark room for months"

 This, I believe is your problem.  Homebrew, as you know, has live yeast, and I
have found that if you store your brews in a very cool place, that they will
last for a real long time.  That said, I have noticed changes in flavor that
occur over time, but I have had brews go for a few years and still be ok, if
kept in a fridge.

Darrell



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Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 08:27:07 -0700
From: Dion Hollenbeck <hollen at woodsprite.com>
Subject: Re: Uh oh, I soaked my 20 qt stainless pot with bleach...

>> Jim Bates writes:

JB> I'm a new homebrewer (on my 4th batch) and realized that I've been
JB> cleaning/soaking my stuff in my stainless pot with a light bleach solution
JB> before/after each brewing/bottling event.  I've recently read that I
JB> should "NEVER" use bleach with any stainless steel as it causes "bad
JB> things".

JB> I've been trying to figure out what kind of "bad things" have happened. 
JB> I'm also wondering if I should purchase a new 20 qt pot for my wife :)

Cleaning with bleach is useless, as bleach is not a cleaner for
organic matter, which is generally what the "dirty" is in your pot
after brewing.  An alkaline based cleaner like PBW, or even dish
detergent is better to use on a SS pot.  And, do not use any cleaning
pad more aggressive than Scotchbrite, it will leave scratches.

Bleach can best be used as a sanitizer, and if contact time is short,
will do no damage to SS.  But, if this is your boil kettle, there is
never any reason to sanitize it, so forget bleach entirely.

Using bleach for a short period of time will not hurt SS at all.  The
problem occurs when you soak SS in bleach.  Where the liquid meets the
air, the bleach will concentrate and will pit the SS.  If you can look
at your pot and not see any pits, you have not done any damage.

If you are merely using the SS pot to sanitize things in, not for a
boil kettle, give it back to your wife, and buy a 5 gallon plastic
bucket for that purpose.

dion
- -- 
Dion Hollenbeck  Email:  hollen at woodsprite.com
Home Page:       http://www.woodsprite.com
Brewing Page:    http://hbd.org/hollen
'98 4runner    '86 4x4 PU


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Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 10:03:02 -0500
From: "Spencer W. Thomas" <hbd at spencerwthomas.com>
Subject: re: off flavors after months

Michael Stumpf says
> I'm finding that my beer is coming out correct immediately, but as it 
> ages in the bottle the taste falls apart.  If I drink it within weeks, 
> or 1-1.5 months after bottling it seems fine, but beyond that the flavor 
> gets overpowered by something I can't identify.

Well.  It's going to be hard to diagnose this without some better handle
on the "something."  I can speculate, but can't give you a definite (as
definite as anything can get in homebrewing) answer.

There are two possible scenarios that come to mind:

1. Oxidation.  If you've incorporated too much air into the beer as
you're bottling, you'll get oxidation.  This could come from splashing
as you decant the beer into a bottling bucket or as you run the beer
into the bottles, for example.  It could come from your brewing process
as well, for example, if you pour hot wort through a strainer into the
fermenter, you'll be oxidizing the heck out of it (this is commonly
called "hot-side aeration" and is a bad thing.)  Oxidative flavors
include "paper" or "wet cardboard" and "pineapple" or "sherry", among
others.  Oxidation will cause the taste to "fall apart," with hop aroma
leaving most quickly, but doesn't usually lead to an "overpowering"
flavor in the short term.


2. Infection.  This seems to me more likely because of your word
"overpowered."  Unfortunately, the flavors you can get from infection
vary widely depending on what you're infected with.  Very common is
"phenolic", which can be "smoky" or "medicinal" or "plastic like", among
others.  Wild yeast infections often produce phenolic aromas and flavors. 

John Palmer's How To Brew site has a list of common off flavors:
http://howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html

=Spencer in Ann Arbor



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Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 10:36:06 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jsrenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Uh oh, I soaked my 20 qt stainless pot with bleach...

"Jim Bates" <jim at midlo.us> is worried because he soaked his brew  
pot in a light bleach solution:

> I've been trying to figure out what kind of "bad things" have  
> happened.

Nothing much has happened if you haven't seen any damage.  I do this  
all the time with stainless equipment like Cornelius kegs.  It helps  
clean them.  The danger is if you leave a strong bleach solution in  
contact with stainless for some time.  It can corrode and pit the  
surface.

John Palmer, metallurgist, homebrewer, and author of _How To Brew_ ,  
discusses the cleaning of stainless in his book.  You can read this  
section in the first edition online at http://www.howtobrew.com/ 
appendices/appendixB.html.

John recommends against using bleach on SS at all as it can remove  
the protective passive oxide layer, but I've never had any trouble.   
This layer, if it is removed, has always reformed in my experience.   
But, as John points out, there are other, better cleaners available.   
It's just that bleach is so easily available, and I've been using it  
for decades on SS - since back before these other cleaners were  
available.

As a beginning brewer, you will probably want to start a brewing  
library, and I highly recommend the third edition of _How to Brew_.   
It is an excellent and comprehensive guide to homebrewing.  Christmas  
is coming up - it would be a great gift.  It's available at the AHA,  
where you can also get an AHA membership which includes Zymurgy  
Magazine.  http://www.store.beertown.org/shopdisplaycategories.asp

> I'm also wondering if I should purchase a new 20 qt pot for my wife :)

This would be a good idea because you will then have two pots, which  
you will be able to use when you move up to all grain brewing. ;-)

Jeff

- ---
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, jsrenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943





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Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 10:41:19 -0500
From: "Tom Clark" <tom.clark at suddenlink.net>
Subject: Bleach and Stainless steel

A high concentration of bleach can actually eat holes in your stainless 
steel pot.

Never leave bleach soaking overnight in a stainless steel pot.

I learned this the hard way by leaving a strong bleach solution in my 
stainless sink over night.
It almost ate clear through the metal in a couple of places.

I'm sure some of the chemists may be able to explain it better.

Tom Clark 




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Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 11:16:50 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jsrenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: bottling, off flavors after months

Michael Stumpf <mjstumpf at pobox.com> wrote:

> I'm finding that my beer is coming out correct immediately, but as it
> ages in the bottle the taste falls apart.  If I drink it within weeks,
> or 1-1.5 months after bottling it seems fine, but beyond that the  
> flavor
> gets overpowered by something I can't identify. ... They all end up  
> tasting the same.


It's just about impossible to identify off flavors at a distance, but  
there are two likely culprits - oxidation and biological  
contamination, i.e., wild yeast and/or bacteria.  I suspect oxidation  
is more likely.  It often shows up with time.  Typical oxidized  
flavors include a similarity to wet paper or cardboard of sherry.

In either case, you need to improve your techniques.  Make sure to  
avoid aeration from splashing except the cooled wort at the time of  
pitching the yeast, as the yeast needs oxygen.  And review your  
sanitary techniques.  But you don't need to go crazy.  Great beer can  
be made with ordinary cleanliness.

John Palmer discusses common off-flavors in his online _How to brew_  
http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html.

The best way to get help on this is from other, more experienced  
brewers, especially ones who are BJCP beer judges.  One way to do  
this is to enter your beers in competitions for feedback, but a far  
better way, IMO, is a local homebrew club.  You can find a listing of  
homebrew clubs at http://www.beertown.org/homebrewing/listings.asp

Local clubs are probably the single best way to improve the quality  
of your beers.

This is probably the time to go on my semiannual rant asking people  
to include their location (and name) when posting to HBD.  There  
might be someone who can help who is in the same area, but you didn't  
know about one another.  It also helps foster an online community.

You can optionally include your Rennerian coordinates, the history of  
which can be found at http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/4235.html#4235-4

Jeff
- ---
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, jsrennerATumichDOTedu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943
Calculate your Rennerian Coordinates at
http://hbd.org/rennerian_table.shtml




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Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 08:24:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Derric <derric1961 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: bottling, off flavors after months


> If I drink it within weeks, or 1-1.5 months after bottling it seems fine,
> but beyond that the
 flavor gets overpowered by something I can't identify.
> Is this common?

Generally, no it should not be common.  I routinely drink my beers many months
(even YEARS) after bottling and there are subtle taste changes, but it is still
good beer.

What kind of bottles are you using?  Glass?  "Regular" PET (plastic) - like
"Coke" bottles?  "Special Beer Bottle" PET (treated to block O2)?

> I'm speculating that the residual yeast (after the secondary) + may
 have
> been in contact with far too much priming sugar.  There are no bottle 
> bombs, and my delivery methodology is consistent.

Generally, quit worrying about the yeast.  Being on the (priming) yeast is
GOOD for the beer.  When the yeast is done carbonating, there is NO
priming sugar left to sit on ... it is *ALL* converted to alcohol/CO2.

> After storing the beer in what is largely a warm, dark room for months, 

How warm is warm?  Taste changes will accelerate in higher temps.

> however, the original characteristics seem to deteriorate.  This is
> consistent
 across styles; ... They all end up tasting the same.

To me, I suspect your beer is either infected or it is oxidizing (staling).
Can you further define the taste at all?  Since you said about that you could
not identify the taste, I'm guessing oxidizing is your problem.  I think that
with most infections you could identify a "sour" component to the taste.
Oxidation is usually described as a "cardboard" taste, but personally
I didn't taste that ... I just tasted BAD ... or undrinkable if it was extreme.

> What is likely to be the problem?

If it is oxidation, you can do a little research and make sure you are taking
all the suggested precautions, including:
   1. Don't let air get mixed into your wort while the wort is hot.
   2. Make sure all your transfers are done "quietly" w/o splashing.
   3. Don't store in "normal" plastic for more than a few months, since
        PET will allow O2 thru over time.  Use glass for "months" long storage.

If it is infection, you will have to re-evaluate your sanitization routines
to try to find the point it is being introduced.

Derric






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