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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


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Contents:
  RE: Marzen (and soft water) ("Brian Lundeen")
  RE:  My pilsner pooped out ("William C. Tobler")
  Pils pooped out (leavitdg)
  RE:  My pilsner pooped out ("David Houseman")
  RE: Pilsner poop-out ("Rich Lynch")
  Overnight Mash (Leo Vitt)
  Re: My pilsner pooped out (Robert Tower)


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Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 00:07:26 -0600
From: "Brian Lundeen" <blundeen at mts.net>
Subject: RE: Marzen (and soft water)

> Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 06:59:30 -0500
> From: leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu
> Subject: Marzen (and soft water)
> 
> Greg Noonan, in Brewing Lager Beer, suggests hard water when 
> brewing a Vienna Lager.  What do you think the consequences 
> would be, in terms of the final flavor, if you used softer/ 
> Pilsen, rather than harder water?
> 

Hi Darrell,

I would like to put this whole water treatment thing into perspective, as I
see it, IMHO, so to speak. If I load up BreWater, and run the Wizard to
convert Pilsen water to Vienna water, I come up with roughly two teaspoons
of Chalk and two teaspoons of Epsom Salts needed for the amount of water
used for a 5 gallon batch. Let's break this down even further. In a glass of
water, this amounts to about 1/10th of a gram of Epsom Salts, a tad less for
the chalk. Do you think that is a significant amount?

Of course, you should probably check NEW Brewing Lager Beer to make sure he
still believes this to be true. I mean, the 10 years from 1986 to 1996
brought a lot of changes to the world of lager brewing. I'm surprised 2006
didn't see the release of Really, Really New Lager Brewing. Seriously, what
do you need to say about lager brewing that can't be summed up in 5 words?
Pitch big, ferment cold, duh! Nothing Noonan has written has impressed me as
being anything more than self-serving gobble-de-gook.

Now, if this doesn't liven up the old HBD with a torrent of counter-points,
I don't know what will. ;-)

Cheers
Bwian



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Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 05:55:15 -0600
From: "William C. Tobler" <wctobler at comcast.net>
Subject: RE:  My pilsner pooped out

Rich said he had a problem with his Pils,

 > I  wondering how I can rescue my first attempt at making a  
pilsner.  I
 > used WY2007 and after a 3 week or so fermentation, I bottled the 5
 > gallon batch with 3/4 cup of corn sugar.  After 2 weeks  at  40F  
the beer
 > has achieved literally *no* carbonation, and has a sweet corn
 > (diacetyl or just the bottling sugar?) taste, which isn't horrible

Rich, I think your problem is trying to carbonate the beer at 40  
degrees F instead of at room temp.  Even though this is a lager, the  
carbonation needs to be done at room temperature.  The yeast will  
just not work at 40 degrees.  Put your bottles at room temp in a  
closet somewhere for a few weeks, and give them a good shake one or  
two times in the first week.  You should be ok.

As far as the corn taste, it sounds like it may be DMS, which has a  
corn like flavor.  Diacetyl has more of a buttery taste.  Check out  
my post from yesterday on a great link on diacetyl.  The DMS can come  
from the malt (German pilsner malt), yeast or bad boiling practice.  
(Boiling with the lid on, or even covering the wort with a lid post  
boil while chilling)  I would just give it some time and see what  
happens.



Bill Tobler
Lake Jackson, TX
(1129.2, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian
Brewing Great Beer in South Texas



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Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2008 07:16:40 -0500
From: leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: Pils pooped out

"After 2 weeks  at  40F...."

The Wyeast site says : Temperature Range: 48-56F, 9-13C

I think that you should raise the temp, perhaps to 60F, see if they carbonate,
and if not, then add the yeast.

Let's see what others suggest.

Darrell



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Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2008 07:35:31 -0500
From: "David Houseman" <david.houseman at verizon.net>
Subject: RE:  My pilsner pooped out

Rich,

Let the bottled lager warm to room temperature for several weeks.   I've 
found that giving the bottles some agitation to get any settled yeast back 
into solution helps as well, so I've inverted the bottles occasionally 
during the period of carbonation.   If this doesn't work you can carefully 
open each bottle and put in a few grains of dried yeast.   But then ferment 
at room temperature, not 45F.

David Houseman



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Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 08:50:12 -0500
From: "Rich Lynch" <rlny7575 at gmail.com>
Subject: RE: Pilsner poop-out

Thanks to everyone for the great responses, I will follow the
collective advice given, and allow my pilsner to bottle condition at
~65F.
If *that* doesnt' fix the carbonation/diacetyl problem ( I don't think
DMS is a problem, I gave it a vigorous boil, didn't cover etc.) I will
drop a little S-23 yeast in each and hold at 65F as someone suggested.
On bringing these up to a warmer temperature: I believe I can just
pull those bottles out of the 40F fridge and let them warm to 65F (my
ambient room temp) over the course of a day with no problems right?
Or at least, I thought I read that here once..
Thanks everyone!


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Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 12:08:45 -0800 (PST)
From: Leo Vitt <leo_vitt at yahoo.com>
Subject: Overnight Mash

I have read postings about overnight mashes off and on for years.  I
finally did one last weekend.  With some activities scheduled Satuday
afternoon, and more on Sunday, I felt this was the way to get a beer
made.  

I used the oven to hold a steady temp, with the temp set to warm.  The
mash went in at 154 and came out in the morning at 142 F.  I did not
know what to expect for the end temp.  Now, I have an idea.  

It seemed easy enough.  Now, I need the beer to finish to be able to
evaluate results.  

Leo Vitt
Sidney, NE




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Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2008 15:06:58 -0800
From: Robert Tower <roberttower at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: My pilsner pooped out

Rich Lynch is having problems getting a pilsner he bottled to condition 
and is wondering what to do. I've had this happen a few times over the 
years. Rich already has the right ideas, but I think in the wrong order.

First, I would warm the bottles to room temperature 68+ F. (20+ C.) and 
wait 1-2 weeks. Make sure the bottles are not sitting on the ground as 
you'll be fooled into thinking it's warmer than it actually is 
(sometimes asmuch of a difference as 10-15 F. when compared to waist 
height air temperature). Open a bottle after a week to see if you're 
getting *any* carbonation. If not, don't worry, give it another week. If 
after two weeks you've got nothing then you'll need to dose each bottle 
with some dry lager yeast. S-23 is a good choice, but still keep the 
bottles at the warm temperature. S-23 becomes *very* sluggish when the 
temperature drops below 53 F. (12 C.). In fact, I always bottle 
condition my lagers at room temperature. The little bit of fermentation 
(usually about 3 points of specific gravity) at room temperature isn't 
going to contribute any significant esters to skew a pilsner's flavor 
profile. Also, no need to rehydrate the yeast, just drop a little bit in 
each bottle. Cut the top off the yeast sachet and scoop some out with 
the smallest teaspoon you can find (an 1/8 tsp works good) and with the 
spoon over the lip of the bottle tap the spoonwith your index finger to 
knock some of the dry yeast into the bottle. You'll probably end up with 
yeast leftover. It kills me to waste yeast (oranything for that matter) 
so I try to evenly distribute they whole sachet over the number of 
bottles I have. This is overkill to a great degree when you consider 
that if there is no viable yeast in your beer you'd onlyneed about 2 
grams to condition 5 gallons (20 liters) of beer (a sachet of S-23 is 
11.5 grams). But as a wise man once said "Overkill: it's the only way to 
live!"

Bob Tower / Los Angeles, CA





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