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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


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Contents:
  Re: Yeast Performance Versus Pressure ("Dave Larsen")
  Input for Newbie Questions ("Michele Maatta")
  Newbie questions / fermenting under pressure (David Harsh)
  Re: New to Homebrewing ("Dave Larsen")
  Metabisulfite for Oxygen Removal? ("mike gutenkauf")
  What happened to the HBD? (drsmith)


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Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 18:05:44 -0700
From: "Dave Larsen" <hunahpu at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Yeast Performance Versus Pressure

>
>> This is from memory, since I do not have the book in front of me, but
>> I remember Noonan had something to say about this in New Brewing Lager
>> Beer.   If I recall correctly, he said that lagering should not be
>> done over 5 lbs of pressure.  He did not say why, however.  I remember
>> this because I was lagering a Marzen in a corny keg at the time, and
>> was worried about the pressure.
>
> I checked Noonan's New Brewing Lager Beer, because I would have been surprised
> if that was stated there, and couldn't find this in the sections where
> he talks
> about lagering.
>
> 5psi (or 0.34 bar) seems a little low. At 0 C (32F) beer temp this would only
> amount to about 4.1 g/l CO2 (~ 2 volumes).

I became curious about this so I looked it up.  I was wrong and I was
right at the same time.  In New Brewing Lager Beer, on page 194, it
says that lagering can be done between 3 and 28 psi.  So, if you go by
that, I am flat out wrong about only lagering at 5 psi.   However,
just out of curiosity, I looked up in the older edition of his book,
simply called Brewing Lager Beer (I have both editions).   In that
book, on page 202, it says not to lager over 5 psi.  Apparently he
revised it for his newer edition.  I simply recalled the older
edition's passage.  So, there you go.

Dave
Tucson, AZ
http://hunahpu.blogspot.com/


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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 07:53:39 -0400
From: "Michele Maatta" <mrmaatta at gmail.com>
Subject: Input for Newbie Questions

Hi Daniel,

Welcome to what I think is the greatest forum that has helped me with
information and problem solving.  I am not even a current brewer, and
am certainly not an ace since I have been on brewing hiatus for a
number of years due to my living arrangements. I've only got about 30+
batches under my belt, so I still believe I am a newbie.

But here's my take on your situation.  Buy the brewing equipment you
can afford without debt.  The bottom line is you can make great beer
with little investment or a lot investment. It's a hobby where you
choose what level you want to take it too.  The fundamentals are
important sanitizing,etc. If you start small you have a ongoing lists
of "gifts" that others can buy for you and they will actually be
useful :)  But again, I would suggest starting at the level you can
afford without debt.

As for bottling vs kegging-- here's my take on that- while I brewed
(and when I reenter) I LOVED to gift my beer.  There's where bottling
has a "one-up" on kegging.  Going to a dinner party and gifting the
host/hostess with a six-pack or two of fine brewed ales was
appreciated on many an occasion.  Mix them up or just give your
finest-- people love it. Kegging does not give you the freedom of such
unique gift opportunities. My friends always appreciated that kind of
gift too.  They absolutely loved critiquing.

Well that's my take on beginning brewing, if it piques your interest
you're in for a long and enjoyable hobby that will turn into a craft
:).

Cheers!

Michele


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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 08:05:20 -0400
From: David Harsh <dharsh at fuse.net>
Subject: Newbie questions / fermenting under pressure

> Daniel Chappell <daniel.chappell at gmail.com> asks questions:

Welcome to the obsession, Daniel.  First, let me say on most of your  
questions, there isn't a "right" or "wrong" answer.  But we all have  
opinions.

> ... I've not yet started.  ...I've read Papazian's book, and I'm
> reading Palmer's book as well.

Good.  Now, relax, don't worry, and BREW!  Your first beer may not be  
perfect but as long as you take care with sanitation, you'll like it  
and you'll want to brew again.

> Can anyone give me any tips, and address the issues of
> stainless steel v. plastic, along with sanitary v. standard fittings?

Dude- you haven't brewed yet and you are concerned with getting a  
conical or fermenting in stainless?  Carboys are fine and until you  
know you are going to do this ALOT, I'd stick with the glass  
carboys.  No issues with oxygen permeation, easy to clean and tons  
cheaper than a stainless conical.  I'd love to have a big conical  
with sanitary fittings, but seems like a lot of cash to spend at the  
outset.

> The other big question I have concerns bottling v. kegging.

You correctly outlined the pros and cons.  If you've got the cash and  
don't mind spending that much for a hobby you are only starting....    
But I'd say bottle to start.  Yes, its a pain, takes forever and I  
never do it unless I donate beer to a charity auction.  I also prefer  
beer on tap.  But I wouldn't recommend the expense to someone who  
isn't committed for the long term.  And a few batches of beer will  
help you figure out whether you are.

> I know this is a lot of material for a first post, but I'm  
> confident you
> ace homebrewers out there can/will help me out.  Thank you in advance!

Just remember that none of the cool toys that lots of us have are  
required to brew great beer.  Many swear by their fancy gadgets, but  
the biggest step in quality in most people's beers are from a wort  
chiller and swearing off dry yeast.

- ---------------------
> steve.alexander <-s at roadrunner.com> wrote:

> ...One German poster to HBD had a spring-loaded syringe mechanism  
> to keep the over-pressure fairly constant.  The scheme has  
> reportedly been used commercially...

On a Columbus pub crawl in 2002, Gordon Biersch was using these  
gizmos on their fermenters.  The pressure at the outlet was set at  
approximately 0.8 bar, which seemed higher than I expected.  I don't  
recall if we asked during our tour about it, but I do have a picture  
of the contraption and the pressure is clearly visible.

Dave Harsh				Cincinnati, OH
Bloatarian Brewing League



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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 09:59:52 -0700
From: "Dave Larsen" <hunahpu at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: New to Homebrewing

>
> First, I was under the impression that pretty much all fermentation
> took place in a bucket or a carboy, so I was very surprised to find a
> number of conical-style fermenters out there.  I'm familiar with
> buckets and carboys (one of my chemistry professors is big into
> homebrewing, and he uses carboys); I've read a bit about conicals, and
> they seem so much easier to use that I was considering going for one
> of those.  Can anyone give me any tips, and address the issues of
> stainless steel v. plastic, along with sanitary v. standard fittings?
>

There are pluses and minuses to using a stainless steel conical.  I
own a Ferminator.  While it makes some things easier, some thing are
much more time consuming.

The biggest drawback to a conical is the price.  Plan to drop about
500 bones on a decent 7 gallon conical.  It goes up from there for
bigger sizes.

Another drawback to a conical is that you cannot see inside it.  I
used to enjoy looking at my carboy and knowing exactly where I was in
terms of fermentation.

A plus to a conical is it blocks light.  There is no change of skunkiness.

Another plus is it is nice to be able to dump off the yeast.  Rather
than rack the beer off the yeast, into another container and risk
infection, you dump the yeast off the beer and use the same container
for secondary fermentation.  No hoses to sanitize.   However, more
often than not, I have to have CO2 handy to push the yeast out with a
little pressure.  That is a bit of a pain.

One would think that a conical is easier to clean and sanitize, but
its not.  Cleaning the inside is quick and thorough, since you don't
have to use a carboy brush.  However, there are about a million little
fittings that have to be cleaned and sanitized.  That takes a lot of
time.

A plus to a conical is that it is easy to take a gravity reading.  You
simply open the racking port and take a sample.  There is no risk of
infection that you would have using a thief.

A minus to a conical is that it takes more sanitizer to sanitize the
thing.  With a carboy, all you have to do is put a gallon or two of
sanitizer in it and rock back and forth for a couple of minutes.  With
a conical, you have to fill the thing up to the top -- 7 gallons.  You
do this to not only sanitize, but also check for leaks.  The
fermenator has weldless fittings that use o-rings to seal them, and it
is easier to fix a leak _before_ the wort goes in.

The biggest plus to a conical is that it has a coolness factor.  You
become the envy of all your brewing friends.

That is pretty much it for conicals.  I would suggest using a carboy
for your first batches, and upgrading to a conical later.

Dave
Tucson, AZ
http://hunahpu.blogspot.com/


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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 18:38:49 -0500
From: "mike gutenkauf" <mikesdak at gmail.com>
Subject: Metabisulfite for Oxygen Removal?

Hello.

I have recently been focusing on light/standard/premium lager brewing
(mostly standard/premiums to this point).
I plan to brew a "light" variant soon, and will likely add pre-boiled,
deoxygenated water post-fermentation.

My sticking point is how to achieve "deoxygenated" water.  I don't
currently have a kegging system, so bubbling CO2 isn't an option.

I heard someone in Australia talking about the use of metabisulfite to
prevent oxidation in the mash, and wondered whether this could be
employed in water.  Will sodium or potassium metabisulfite react to
remove oxygen from water?  If so, what approximate quantity would be
required?

Thanks in advance,

Mike G.


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Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2008 20:05:38 -0400
From: drsmith <hbd at aperature.org>
Subject: What happened to the HBD?

Please forgive me for coming late to the discussion.  Over the past  
few months, one of my co-workers has become very interested in beer  
brewing and once he learned that I had the equipment, it eventually  
led me back into the hobby.  Looking back on the sites and emails I  
used to read, I recently resubscribed to the digest.

Since I had been away for a few years, I thought it best to catch up  
on the current conversation by reading the last 6 months of the HBD  
archives.  In one of the more recent digests, Dave Larson wrote:

"Is that what it is, a technological issue?   I posted from gmail and
used plain text and have not had a problem.  Maybe it just needs a
technological makeover.  However, didn't that happen in the 90s and it
almost killed it?"

"I've noticed that other forums seem active, like AHA TechTalk.  I have
to admit, though, that they do not have the same expertise that the
old HBD had.  The number of real experts on the old HBD was just
amazing."

The follow-ups illustrate the reasons why things are the way they are  
 - the need to eliminate spam is probably one of the bigger reasons  
behind the restrictions that make posting to the digest difficult, for  
instance.  Personally, I still use a text based mail client, so  
hopefully this post will go through without too much hassle.  For your  
amusement, this is the first attempt at posting this message (count  
increases with each attempt).

Now to the reason why I'm posting:  I work as a senior systems  
administrator.  I do everything - web pages, file servers, email  
servers, networks, Storage Area Networks (SAN), domain controllers,  
and UNIX system administration to name a few.  One of the things that  
caught my interest is the expense of maintaining the HBD in it's  
current form, which in my opinion is quite high.  I'm sure that Pat  
and the janitors have researched their options with regard to this  
issue, and I will mention here that I don't think the digest needs to  
go the way of the dinosaur or that it ever will.  I don't know  
everything that the HBD server does currently but I would certainly  
volunteer to help transition the HBD to a hosting account or to an  
acceptable co-location center before I would stand by and watch it go  
away.

Certainly, the level of expertise represented in the audience is far  
beyond what I can find anywhere else on the web. As a side note, it's  
comforting to see so many familiar names here on the digest - it's a  
testament to the durability of the forum that so many of you are still  
here.

- --Darrin



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