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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: Freezing Hops ("Michele Maatta")
  re: Matching the beer to the festival ("Chad Stevens")
  Re: Matching the beer to the festival (Tim Bray)
  Re: Matching the beer to the festival ("Chad Stevens")
  aeration/oxidation (steve alexander)
  re: starter size vs. esters ("jeff_ri")
  Dornbush/Vorlauf ("steve.alexander")


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Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 08:33:01 -0400
From: "Michele Maatta" <mrmaatta at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Freezing Hops

I'm a happy reader, currently not brewing, but I've been reading about
the hops harvesting and freezing without the ice crystals and such.  I
hope that I'm not stating the obvious...I just want to help.

My vacuum sealer (though that might be the problem, that one is not
available) has an attachment to do containers, or jars. Is that an
option for freezing the hops without crushing the oils out?  I don't
harvest my own, so I'm oblivious to the care-- I typically buy the
pellets and such from my local brew store.

Anyway, best wishes on the conservation and preservation of a
currently very valuable commodity.

Cheers folks and keep sharing the fabulously informative forum we've
all come to know and love!

Michele


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Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 10:21:23 -0700
From: "Chad Stevens" <zuvaruvi at cox.net>
Subject: re: Matching the beer to the festival

Tim wants to know if there is a beer I would reject at our festival.  This 
is the beginning of the winner's list from the San Diego County Fair Craft 
Brewer's Competition (full results are at: 
http://www.sdfair.com/fair/pdf/08craftbrew_results.pdf ):

Class, Brewery Sub Class Beer Name Place
1 Light Lager
Michelob C- Premium Am Lager Michelob Lager 1
Hacker Pschorr D- Munich Helles Munich Gold 2
Kona Brewing Co C- Premium Am Lager Longboard Lager 3
2 Pilsner
Konig Brauerei A- German Pilsner Konig Pilsner 1
San Pedro Brewing Co C- Classic Am Pilsner Pedro Pilsner 2
Boston Beer Company B- Bohemian Pilsner Sam Adams Boston Lager 3
3 European Amber Lager
Bjs Restaurant And Brewery-Chandler B- Oktoberfest/Marzen BJs Marzen 1
Mission Brewery A- Vienna Lager Mission Vienna Lager 2
Boston Beer Company A- Vienna Lager Sam Adams Light 3
4 Dark Lager
Boston Beer Company B- Munich Dunkel Samuel Adams Black Lager 1
Moretti B- Munich Dunkel La Rossa 2
Michelob A- Dark Am Lager Michelob Amber Bock 3

We had over 500 entries from 115 breweries in 12 countries and that's how a 
couple of the A-B products stacked up.  They had other winners, not only in 
our competition, but at WBC the month before.  Do I tell them they are not 
welcome because they are "the big guys?"  Do I refuse Boston Beer Company 
because they are now a "large" brewery?  Where does that sort of thinking 
stop?  Who's being elitist?  More importantly, as a small brewer, if my beer 
places against "the big guys," I know I'm doing OK.  What could be better 
than to brew a Trippel then beat the established Belgian representations of 
that style in a competition?  If I stack the deck toward the little guy, it 
deflates the competition and the meaningfulness of the prize.  The line-up 
speaks for itself.  We had great beers; who am I to play gate keeper and 
turn my nose up at a certain brewery?

Rather, it is my intent to change the public's perception of the word 
"craft."  These beers are crafted.  All of them.  Breweries, both large and 
small go to great lengths to produce a great product.  After the marketing 
guys and bean counters get hold of it, that vision may get lost in the 
shuffle, but in the end, I think it is important the public realize that all 
great beers are lovingly crafted, not merely produced like spark plugs.

My $0.02,
Chad Stevens 



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Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 13:19:46 -0700
From: Tim Bray <tbray at wildblue.net>
Subject: Re: Matching the beer to the festival

Chad, why not simply answer my question?  Instead, you seem to have 
presumed I intended to offer some definition equating "craft" with 
"small" or that somehow "elitism" was involved.  All I want to know is, 
what do you mean by "craft brewer?"  As far as I can tell from the rant 
below the winner's list, the phrase is meaningless (as there is no 
distinction between "craft brewer" and any other kind of commercial 
brewer). 

So why bother applying the "Craft" label to your beer competition?  It 
smacks of marketing.  You want to change the public's perception, by 
removing any discernible meaning from the word?  Why? 

Please understand that I do not mean to impugn the competition itself, 
nor the entrants.  I actually like the idea of open competitions where 
beers from all levels of the business get compared against each other.  
What I object to is the misleading implication of the word "Craft" in 
your festival's title, when in fact that word has not one whit of 
effect.  It would be more honest to leave that word out - this is simply 
a Brewer's Competition.

Cheers,
Tim




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Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 14:45:09 -0700
From: "Chad Stevens" <zuvaruvi at cox.net>
Subject: Re: Matching the beer to the festival

Wow, mud slingin'...just like the good old days of the HBD!

> Chad, why not simply answer my question?  Instead, you seem to have 
> presumed I intended to offer some definition equating "craft" with "small" 
> or that somehow "elitism" was involved.  All I want to know is, what do 
> you mean by "craft brewer?"  As far as I can tell from the rant below the 
> winner's list, the phrase is meaningless (as there is no distinction 
> between "craft brewer" and any other kind of commercial brewer).

Now you're getting my point.  There is no diference.  I've learned from guys 
who worked at Molson's and the little guys as well.  There is no difference. 
Beer is beer, and the more the average consumer equates all beer with 
craft/cottage industry and appreciates the artistry that goes into each and 
every pint, the better off the "real craft" brewers will be as the market 
transitions to "real" beer.

>
> So why bother applying the "Craft" label to your beer competition?  It 
> smacks of marketing.  You want to change the public's perception, by 
> removing any discernible meaning from the word?  Why?

The best of show trophy is the San Diego Brewer's Guild Trophy.  What we 
originally intended, and what it has quickly become may very well be two 
different things.  An artist may have an idea in their head, but once the 
art is turned over to the public....

>
> Please understand that I do not mean to impugn the competition itself, nor 
> the entrants.  I actually like the idea of open competitions where beers 
> from all levels of the business get compared against each other.  What I 
> object to is the misleading implication of the word "Craft" in your 
> festival's title, when in fact that word has not one whit of effect.  It 
> would be more honest to leave that word out - this is simply a Brewer's 
> Competition.

Maybe we should call it the San Diego County Fair Good Beer Competition & 
Festival?  ...the Really Good Beer Competition & Festival?  :o)  Seriously, 
I've been thinking about removing "Craft" from the name.  I'm just at a loss 
for what to call it.  It's not big beer co. by any stretch of the 
imagination.  The average consumer who walks into our fest can't name 95% of 
the beers laid out in front of them.  World Beer Fest?  I'm open to 
suggestions....

>
> Cheers,
> Tim
>

Thanks for the banter,

Chad Stevens
QUAFF
San Diego (Fair Brew Dude) 



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Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 19:13:00 -0400
From: steve alexander <steve-alexander at roadrunner.com>
Subject: aeration/oxidation

Jim D opens the can of worms


 > > Subject: Aeration on the hot and cold side
 > >
 > > I read tons of information regarding hot side aeration but very
 > > little about the cold side.  I'm trying to figure out how both
 > > affect by beer.


Aeration is a bad term.  Oxidation is the issue, and atmospheric
oxygen is just the prime culprit.  Oxidation of beer and beer
components have flavor negative impact on beer.  If you crush malt&
grain days in advance of brewing you are likely to oxidize oils and
also oxidize and polymerize phenolic materials.  Hops contain a lot of
anti-oxidant potential, but even hops age and stale.  Studies and
analyzes clearly show that a lot of potential oxidation in the mash
(when enzymes and metal ions determine the rate) and the boiler -
where despite the low O2 solubility a lot of oxygen uptake occurs.
Metal ions - iron and copper esp, can assist by transfering oxidation
state thus increasing the oxidate rate.

Healthy yeast not only remove free oxygen rapidly but as a metabolic
side-effect they reduce(the opposite of oxidize) the wort components
and can actually reverse certain types of oxidation.  After high
kreusen, as the fermentation declines, the addition of any oxygen can
be very detrimental and will certainly limit the storage-life of a
beer, if not cause a clear decline in flavor.

HB scale brewing is particularly troublesome - since the ratio of open
surface area:volume is many times larger than even a 10bbl
microbrewery.  Also any transfers are likely to be less well
controlled.

I sometimes bottle condition excess as well as keg, and after a couple
months when comparing the same beer side-by-side, the bottle
conditioned beer is always superior.  The hops flavor/aroma seem far
better and there is a definite freshness perception.  I believe this
can be attributed to the anti-oxidant and oxygen removing feature of
yeast and possibly due to excess iron ions in a corny keg.

One very obnoxious oxidation effect is the "stale cardboard" aroma
associated with trans-N-nonenal.  This aldehyde byproduct of common
fatty acids (linoleic) has been demonstrated by isotope studies that
the oxidation occurs only by HSA.  There are lipo-oxygenase enzymes in
the mash that may be involved, but also non-enzymatic effects in the
boiler.  Normally yeast will consume the excess lipids in wort, but
not these oxidized products.  Some of the most obnoxious cold-side
oxidation products are aldehydes of complex organic compounds and
fusels formed as oxygen contacts finished beer.

Anti-oxidants are merely chemicals that can oxidize without producing
obnoxious flavor products.  That doesn't mean that oxidation cause no
deficits when anti-oxidants are present, just that it's not "too bad".
One point for the sci-oriented brewers, when you see an oxidation
reaction where a single carbon-oxygen bond "O-C" is changed to a
double bond "C=O" carbonyl group it should send up a red-flag.  The
carbonyl group is normally indicative of strong flavors, often but not
always negative; aldehydes, ketones and carboxylic acids.  Compare the
single bonded ethanol, with the flavor impact of acetaldehyde, acetone
(nail polish solvent) and acetic acid(vinegar).  Esters also have a
carbonyl group, but we don't generally considers these (ethyl acetate
= banana aroma) as obnoxious as other carbonyl compounds.  Most of the
oxidation of fermentation process appears as CO2 (O=C=O) which we find
sharply acidic but not flavor/aroma obnoxious.

Hops and malt both contain phenolic anti-oxidants.  Those from hops
are the most active anti-oxidants. The un-oxidized form of these is
likely to give a sense of freshness.  Once oxidized they are likely
fairly neutral but they polymerize into longer "tannins" and these can
taste bitter and eventually astringent.  Wine is chock-full of such
anti-oxidant phenols, and as the wine ages in a sealed bottle the
tannins can polymerize to the point where they actually drop out of
solution.  Beers are never aged so much, but a PVPP addition can
remove these oxidized tannoids very effectively & rapidly.  Wort
phenolics are a flavor positive when un-oxidized, but are also an
effective anti-oxidant.

SO2 - many lager yeasts can produce a little (up to 15pppm) SO2.  The
sulfite ions are anti-oxidant.  They oxidize to sulfate and this is
fairly innocuous at modest levels in most beer styles.  The SO2 is
more effective at lower pH (beer rather than wort), but an early
metabisulfite addition can substantially reduce mash & boil oxidation.


 > > Hot side: This is obviously the hardest one for me to control.

Not very hard.  Try crushing 2 campden tablets(sodium or potassium
metabisulfite) into the mash water for a 5gal batch.  I find that this
has a noticeable impact on the "freshness" the resulting beer,
especially light colored pils & lighter ales.  It certainly makes the
color lighter and paler.  At that level much of the sulfite is
oxidized to sulfate.  I've used ~3+ times that level (not recommended)
and have never had a fermentation problem.


 > > One thought I had was that since that is preboil, perhaps the boil
 > > itself will drive off the oxygen I introduced while mixing.


Nice thought, but all-source brewery O2 uptake studies show otherwise.
O2 in solution in the boiling wort is rapidly (microseconds) used to
form oxidation products.  So only surface O2 exists at a couple ppm
saturation (~3ppm IIRC).  So boiling wort has essentially zero oxygen
beyond the surface layer and the difference in O2 level from wort to
atmosphere drives the oxygen surface diffusion rate. You must either
remove much O2 from the headspace or reduce the boiling surface area
to decrease the rate.  Less surface area in a tall/narrow boiler is an
advantage.  You *might* be able to remove enough oxygen to make a
difference in a pressure cooker, but a partially lidded boiler is not
very effective.


 > > Cold side: This is much easier to control but I'm wondering if it
 > > is more critical, especially at bottling time since the beer will
 > > just be sitting and aging.  I don't know that I create any
 > > aeration at this point but I am wondering if it is more or less
 > > critical on the cold side.


Both are important.  I suspect that HSA in excess can cause more
spectacular damage, but CSA is probably a more common source of lesser
damage.  Meilgaard published a paper suggesting some extreme
commercial O2 reduction methods have only little evidence for
flavor/staling improvement, but even 10bbl micro breweries methods
probably cause an order of magnitude less O2 uptake then common HB
methods.  HBs small scale and open transfer methods exaggerate the
oxidation problems.

I don't think CSA is easy to control at all.  Say you have a carboy
full of nicely clearing unoxidized beer with a fermentation lock.  How
can you transfer it to bottle or keg without introducing a lot of
oxygen ?  As you drain the carboy you need to displace the missing
beer with CO2 or nitrogen, Then you have to transfer it to a bottle or
keg where all the O2 has been removed and there is no aperature to the
atmosphere.  Read up on partial pressures and Henry's law and you'll
see why gas-flow through a partially lidded pot or a exit tube doesn't
do much to exclude O2.

There have been some nonsense methods posted to remove oxygen
(splashing boiling water into a corny key to supposedly void the
atmosphere).  Do the math; there is ~3psi of partial pressure pushing
atmospheric O2 into every nook and cranny.  A layer of CO2 or water
vapor exposed to the atmosphere is no protection at all.

 -S



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Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 19:57:27 -0400
From: "jeff_ri" <jeff_ri at cox.net>
Subject: re: starter size vs. esters

Hi All,

  In HBD #5387 Jim D asked about starter size vs. esters.  He also mentioned 
fermenting english ale strains at 65 - 68F.

  I usually only make 1 qt starters for "normal" gravity ales (vs your 2 L).

  However I would suggest upping the temp to 68 - 72F to increase the esters 
instead of changing starter size.

Jeff McNally
Tiverton, RI
(652.2 miles, 90.0 deg) A.R.
www.southshorebrewclub.org




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Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 21:47:29 -0400
From: "steve.alexander" <-s at roadrunner.com>
Subject: Dornbush/Vorlauf

Posted/withdrawn/reposted.

The lovely and talented =Spencer asked me to consider removing the 
incendiary parts of this post.  Sadly After review I found the entire 
thing a bit incendiary - so I'm at a loss as to which bits to edit.  
Further I'm not certain that a bit of controversy isn't called for.  So 
here is a kinder-gentler version.

Aaron Hermes asks,

>> >> Either that or Dornbush is misleading (wouldn't be the first time).
>> >>         
> >
> > Without wanting to start anything too crazy, is he known for being
> > inaccurate/misleading?
>   
Not particularly, and no agenda implied.  I've always been a bit annoyed 
at the AHA beer style books including Dornbush's.   It seems they got 
some competent authors, then held them to no editorial standard.  I can 
point to some glaring errors in that series, but mostly it's the 
unsupported comment and opinion that are dubious & off-putting.  Use 
them as recipe books and background info, but you should be skeptical of 
the methods & details.

> > I appreciate the references to Kunze.  I've been tempted to get that
> > and read it, but I haven't seen a reasonable place to get my hands on
> > it...
You can order it here.
https://www.vlb-berlin.org/cms/front_content.php?idcat=31&idart=267
129EU is $200USD these days ... Think I paid $160USD several years ago, 
but don't expect that exchange rate to improve !  (Semi-political but 
non-partisan comment replaced with ECON101 lesson).

The Chicago School of Economics was largely responsible for the 
"quantity (or velocity) theory of money".  It's vast and complex but the 
upshot is that the value of a currency is (within some rather extensive 
conditions) proportional to GDP divided by the  quantity of money.   We 
in the US have the M1 and M2 measures of money, (M3 was discontinued in 
2006).  Considering the population demographics and current social 
programs, inflation is baked into this cake; buy the book now.

>> >> OK -so if you want to experiment with filters [...]     
> > This sounds like it's more trouble than it's worth at my level of
> > production...  That's what I was looking to know!
I use an insertion manifold (slotted copper inserted to the bottom of a 
sanke) and pump for recirculation.  You'd be surprised at how clear the 
sweet wort is after 10-15 minutes of slow recirculation.  With no mash 
transfer the oxidation should be limited.

I *suspect* that the trubby sweet wort with husk and crushed germ adds 
some flavor negatives during the  boil  - avoiding that is the goal I 
think.

 -S



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