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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


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Contents:
  power of HB...Paul Shicks post (Fred M. Scheer)
  Soft/RO Water; Color; Oxidation ("A.J deLange")


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Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 14:15:55 +0000
From: fredscheer07 at comcast.net (Fred M. Scheer)
Subject: power of HB...Paul Shicks post

HI All:
One just never underestimate the power
 of Homebrewers.
As AJ demonstradet, not only is the 
knowledge about the subject brewing there,
also the contribution to the art and science 
and the practical knowledge is 
there.You are right with your posting, Paul.
I as a Professional Brewer, altimes appreciated
 the help from Homebrewers.
Especially from the AABG in MI. I had the
 largest taste panel and help
when we operated Frankenmuth Brewery. 
I hope that other brewers in MI
appreciate them as well.
Still this days, whenever one of the AABG 
visits Nashville, TN, I get a report 
on
the beers, food and service. AND, 
I get some of the best Homebrewed Nectar
in the US for my enjoyment. What else
 can you ask for?


Cheers,
Fred Scheer


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Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 11:23:48 -0400
From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: Soft/RO Water; Color; Oxidation

RE: softened water: it is soft (little or no Ca or Mg) but it is not any 
lower in mineral content than the water that went into the softener. 
Each milliequivalent of calcium removed, which weighs 20 mg, is replaced 
by a milliequivalent of sodium which weighs 23 mg. Each mEq of magnesium 
removed (weight 12.15) is replaced by a mEq of sodium. Bicarbonate, 
chloride etc. all sail through unaffected. So by weight, in fact, the 
total amount of dissolved minerals increases (though based on 
equivalence the amount stays the same). Do not think of softened water 
in the same terms as RO water.

I forgot to respond to the question about dilution of tap water with RO 
water. In general, one can think of RO water as distilled water for 
dilution calculations i.e. if sulfate is 60 mg/L in tap water and it is 
diluted 1+2 with RO water (1 part tap water to 2 parts RO water) the 
sulfate content will be about 20 mg/L. I use "about" because RO does not 
completely remove ions. It may be 98% effective against sulfate, for 
example, which means that 1.2 mg/L would make it through the RO unit 
giving a total concentration of (2*1.2 + 60)/3 = 20.8 mg/L which is 
certainly close to 20. Alkalinity may be off by a bit more than the 
other elements for two reasons: first, RO units are typically only about 
95% effective against bicarbonate which is responsible for virtually all 
observed alkalinity. Second, there may be a pH shift necessary to 
maintain electrical neutrality which also throws things off a bit. For 
example, if 1 part  pH 8.00 water at alkalinity 200 with 130 ppm as 
CaCO3 calcium and magnesium hardnesses with 60 ppm sulfate is blended 
with 2 parts distilled water there will be a pH shift to 8.02 and the 
alkalinity will be 68.3 rather than 200/3 = 66.7. Again, a relatively 
small error.

For Chad: Remember that guys like me are often referred to as Daltonians 
after another color blind guy who was also much intrigued by color.

For  Paul: The MCAB presentation was called "Beer Color Re-examined" but 
it did propose a pseudo SRM + 3 parameters as a way of describing color 
(good memory!).  It also stated that beer does not follow Beer's law. 
Not true, though widely thought to be the case among home brewers in 
those days. The big deal since then is the use of the true SRM (rather 
than pseudo SRM derived from a pricipal component) and some small number 
of principal components.

I also miss the high quality tech talks from MCAB (and BT). There really 
isn't a forum for that kind of discussion among homebrewers...except 
HBD!  In case it didn't come across in previous posts late me state very 
clearly that this work never would have happened had it not been for  
HBD. Responses to questions and comments really force one to clarify his 
thinking. This is equally so for the supportive comments as the ones 
that vigorously assured me that I was all wet.

Finally oxidation state of beer is really not all that difficult to 
measure and used to be considered quite important (see DeClerck). I've 
often suspected that the industry quit doing rH measurements because of 
the difficulties with dyes etc. and that it may now be time to have 
another look. rH (ORP) is now measured almost as easily as pH (electrode 
must be calibrated with a substance of known oxidation state and pH is 
required to complete the cal). It is, of course, critical that the 
sample be protected from exposure to the air but a closed sampling 
chamber into which pH and ORP electrodes (or a combination electrode) 
can be inserted and which can be connected directly to a zwickle or beer 
line should make it possible to do these. Some day...

A.J.


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