---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


***************************************************************
        OCTOBER'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY: 

                 Ypsilanti Brewing Company
        Visit them at http://www.ypsilantibrewing.com/ 
			 
    Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's site!
********** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html *********

DONATE to the Home Brew Digest. Home Brew Digest, Inc. is a 
501(c)3 not-for-profit organization under IRS rules (see the
FAQ at http://hbd.org for details of this status). Donations
can be made by check to Home Brew Digest mailed to:

HBD Server Fund
PO Box 871309
Canton Township, MI 48187-6309

or by paypal to address serverfund@hbd.org. DONATIONS of $250 
or more will be provided with receipts. SPONSORSHIPS of any 
amount are considered paid advertisement, and may be deductible
under IRS rules as a business expense. Please consult with your 
tax professional, then see http://hbd.org for available 
sponsorship opportunities.
***************************************************************


Contents:
  Roggenbierre ("Darrell G. Leavitt")
  Re: Roggenbier and thickness.. (-s)


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*           The HBD Logo Store is now open!             *
*            http://www.hbd.org/store.html              *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*   Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!   *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
  "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org FROM THE E-MAIL
  ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!**
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, you cannot subscribe to
  the digest as we cannot reach you. We will not correct your address
  for the automation - that's your job.

HAVING TROUBLE posting, subscribing or unsusubscribing? See the HBD FAQ at
http://hbd.org.

LOOKING TO BUY OR SELL USED EQUIPMENT? Please do not post about it here. Go
instead to http://homebrewfleamarket.com and post a free ad there.

The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright 
  HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK 
  before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content 
  cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit.

More information is available by sending the word "info" to 
req@hbd.org or read the HBD FAQ at http://hbd.org.

JANITORs on duty: Pat Babcock (pbabcock at hbd dot org), Jason Henning,
                  and Spencer Thomas



----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 07:28:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Darrell G. Leavitt" <leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu>
Subject: Roggenbierre

Mike;
 I have made several of these over the years, but have never done the rest
at the lower temperature, and have just now, for the first time done so. 
I will let you know how it comes out.

 Unfortunately, I overshot the mark (aiming for 95-104 F) and had to chill
from 120 to 104 or so.  As you may have seen in a post I made her a few
days back, I am uncertain as to whether the enzyme that apparently deals
with the beta glucans ( that make it thick) is de-natured and therefore
rendered uneffective, if one overshoots the temp.  But we shall see.

 Fix and Fix is not that difficult, and you can browse to get the essence
of it.  They do say that a rest at 95-104 is essential for this.

 I have never minded the thickness, but will continued to try, in future
attempts, to get this right.

 I don't recall the upper end/ percentage of the grist that should be high
in glucans, like the rye, but think that starting out, I would drop the
amount of rye, then see how high I can push it and still get it clear? 
Just a thought.

 Happy Brewing!
 -Darrell



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 11:45:54 -0400
From: -s at adelphia.net
Subject: Re: Roggenbier and thickness..

Mike Eyre asks about rye beers.

> I'd like to improve it to that point. It uses about 50%  
> rye in the recipe, which I've learned to work with during the brew  
> sessions. It can be funny, but I think we've got it down now. The  
> finished beer though, is a bit on the 'thick' and cloudy side. The  
> cloudy doesn't bother me too much, as I know it's not a crystal clear  
> style but it looks like a glass full of river bottom muck in the  
> glass.. though the taste is fantastic. As it stands, I'm using a three  
> step mash, with a 133 deg, a 155 deg and a 165 degree rest. I'm  
> thinking I may need a little something extra in there, for gums  I  
> believe, in the 104 degree area, to help with the 'thick' feeling this  
> brew has. Can anyone comment on this and perhaps point me in the right  
> direction on what I might need to research, if I'm on the wrong track?  
> A little longheadedness is OK, but Dr. Fix might be a little much for  
> me to comprehend... :)
>   
Well if you can't read Fix, you'll probably want to page down.

You don't mention what rye you are using, but I'll assume rye malt.  I
had a discussion years ago the maltster w/ Marianne Gruber at Breiss
about rye malt.  My (more colorful) interpretation of her comments is
that rye is a b*tch to malt.  Because of the husk and structure rye is
far more prone to infection during the malting, so they are forced to
dry and kiln early.  This leads to low diastatic power and higher
levels of HMW protein and more beta-glucans. Rye is inherently high in
gums) and at 50% of the malt bill, you really need to accept this as
part of the deal.  The gum problem is made worse because during
malting, the gum level initially rises, then falls,so a short malting
leads to more gums.

I've had and really like the Thurn&Taxis Roggenbier, and I also has a
great rye from Spaten, and their tied-house in Munster IIRC.  The
spaten was deep red and about the same dextrin level as a
lighter-range of festbier. Very clear btw.

I'll also note that I've had some annoying phenolic flavors from rye
when it gets beyond 25% of the grist, but if you are getting good
results from 50% then by all means - go for it.

My second rye beer I used 50% rye malt and I mashed the heck out of it
for hour, and the wort, and to a much lesser extent the beer had an
odd oily, oat-like texture, perhaps due to laminarose sugars/gums.

Some confusing terms here: All grains contain insoluble hemicellulose
and hot-water soluble gums.  These are both bet-glucans, but we
brewers are only interested in the soluble gums.  These consist of
complex polymers of sugars, but both include beta-1-4 links which are
difficult to deal with.  Hemicellulose is *mostly* b-1-4 and b-1-3
linked glucose while the smaller gum polymers contain high levels of
pentose sugars (arabinose, xylose, ribose).

Raw barley is ~8% hemicellulose and ~2% gums, but during malting the
level of gums initially rises, then falls.  The fall is mostly the
degradation releasing arabinose, xylose, ribose etc.  It's hard to
find solid figure, and the numbers certainly vary with the cultivar,
but I expect raw rye has 2x or even 3x or more gums, and the shortened
malting cycle makes the problem worse.  Note that yeast DO use pentose
sugars via a pentose-monophosphate pathway we seldom discuss.  More
of the pentose ends up incorporated in the yeast cell, but
fermentation also occurs.

It has long been thought that if brewers could break down the B-1-4
(say add an enzyme to the mash tun and denature in the boiler) that
this would be a major advance in brewing efficiency.  Many grains such
as rye and sorghum would be more accessible.  The term "beta-glucans"
refers to these smaller MW soluble polymers that make beer viscous and
can interfere with wort separation.

- -- Back to Mike's specific problem

I appreciate that you want to mash the rye well, since it is likely
undermodified, but I think your choices for a mash schedule (you don't
mention times) are a bit random.

Grist selection:

The amount of soluble beta-glucans gums in rye malt will vary with the
rye cultivar and even from batch-to-batch as the malting cycle varies.
Choosing another rye malt, or even a different batch may have a
dramatic effect on the level of gums.

The so called "beta-gluconase"(BG) enzymes are the ones you want to
use intensively when mashing rye.  High kilning temps denature BG, so
for example pale-ale or munich malt has almost no BG activity.  You
must mash the rye with a low-kilned light lager malt.  In my experience
most rye is high-kilned and so it cannot degrade its own gums.


Mashing:

Since rye is likely very undermodified it is one the very few cases
where the ancient decoction idea validly applies to modern malt.  This
cannot be said of *any* modern barley or wheat malt.  Another more
simple approach that I would recommend is to use a "cereal mash"
technique for the rye.  These are only options to consider.  A
conventional step mash will work too but perhaps at lower efficiency
and a more complex issue with protein/haze.

The BG rest temperature is optimal around 95-105F/35-40C.  You will
want a good long rest at this temperature - 40-60 minutes would think.
You can use a relatively thick mash, but not much less than 1 qt/lb.
The long time is due to the fact you have little BG enzyme to start
with and a lot of gums to deal with.

Typical rye will have a lot of HMW protein which will certainly lead
to protein haze unless handled.  It will also be relatively low in FAN
and LMW protein, but this isn't likely to be a yeast-nutrition issue
w/ 50% normal barley malt.  Still this calls for a good rest between
113F-131F/45-55C and I would suggest no higher than that midpoint.
122F/50C.  Despite popular claims the higher half of that range isn't
much better than the lower half in degrading HMW protein, and has the
added benefit (in your case) of bumping up the FAN level a bit, and
the enzymes work longer at the lower range.

Be aware that your barley malt already has it's protein well-degraded
by the maltster, so the balancing act is to degrade the rye proteins
enough to avoid haze, but not drop the total protein enough to kill
head & body.  Actually the beta-glucans add a lot to head and body, so
you can err on the size of over degradation of protein.

Because rye is undermodified it will continue to "leak" starch every
time you bump the temperature.  I'll suggest a full mashout at at
least 168F, but not above 175F, and a 15 minute rest (yest AA is still
active and will clear the starch.

So as a starting point ...:
50% rye malt, 50% barley malt with no less than 10% as pale lager malt.
mash-in/BG rest - 100F/40-60 min
protein rest - 120F/20min (increase if haze persists)
saccharification - 149F-163F (brewers choice for dextrins)
mashout - 168F/20min

As I said you can start with a thick mash-in, say 0.9-1qt/lb and bump
the temp with boiling water boluses. It's no crime to have the
saccharification and mashout well above 2qt/lb.  Most German pale
beers and decoctions saccharify at 2.5qt/lb and may add more water for
mashout.

Note that beta-glucans processing can reduce, but never eliminate the
b-glucans body effect.  The enzymes merely snip-down the b-g
molecules, but don't eliminate them. FWIW commercial brewers often use
beta-glucanase enzyme additions when the raw-grist gets very high.
That would work here too *if* you can find it.

 -S



Return to table of contents

---