HOMEBREW Digest #5440 Thu 30 October 2008

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  Roggenbierre ("Darrell G. Leavitt")
  Re: Roggenbier and thickness.. (-s)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 07:28:46 -0400 (EDT) From: "Darrell G. Leavitt" <leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu> Subject: Roggenbierre Mike; I have made several of these over the years, but have never done the rest at the lower temperature, and have just now, for the first time done so. I will let you know how it comes out. Unfortunately, I overshot the mark (aiming for 95-104 F) and had to chill from 120 to 104 or so. As you may have seen in a post I made her a few days back, I am uncertain as to whether the enzyme that apparently deals with the beta glucans ( that make it thick) is de-natured and therefore rendered uneffective, if one overshoots the temp. But we shall see. Fix and Fix is not that difficult, and you can browse to get the essence of it. They do say that a rest at 95-104 is essential for this. I have never minded the thickness, but will continued to try, in future attempts, to get this right. I don't recall the upper end/ percentage of the grist that should be high in glucans, like the rye, but think that starting out, I would drop the amount of rye, then see how high I can push it and still get it clear? Just a thought. Happy Brewing! -Darrell Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 11:45:54 -0400 From: -s at adelphia.net Subject: Re: Roggenbier and thickness.. Mike Eyre asks about rye beers. > I'd like to improve it to that point. It uses about 50% > rye in the recipe, which I've learned to work with during the brew > sessions. It can be funny, but I think we've got it down now. The > finished beer though, is a bit on the 'thick' and cloudy side. The > cloudy doesn't bother me too much, as I know it's not a crystal clear > style but it looks like a glass full of river bottom muck in the > glass.. though the taste is fantastic. As it stands, I'm using a three > step mash, with a 133 deg, a 155 deg and a 165 degree rest. I'm > thinking I may need a little something extra in there, for gums I > believe, in the 104 degree area, to help with the 'thick' feeling this > brew has. Can anyone comment on this and perhaps point me in the right > direction on what I might need to research, if I'm on the wrong track? > A little longheadedness is OK, but Dr. Fix might be a little much for > me to comprehend... :) > Well if you can't read Fix, you'll probably want to page down. You don't mention what rye you are using, but I'll assume rye malt. I had a discussion years ago the maltster w/ Marianne Gruber at Breiss about rye malt. My (more colorful) interpretation of her comments is that rye is a b*tch to malt. Because of the husk and structure rye is far more prone to infection during the malting, so they are forced to dry and kiln early. This leads to low diastatic power and higher levels of HMW protein and more beta-glucans. Rye is inherently high in gums) and at 50% of the malt bill, you really need to accept this as part of the deal. The gum problem is made worse because during malting, the gum level initially rises, then falls,so a short malting leads to more gums. I've had and really like the Thurn&Taxis Roggenbier, and I also has a great rye from Spaten, and their tied-house in Munster IIRC. The spaten was deep red and about the same dextrin level as a lighter-range of festbier. Very clear btw. I'll also note that I've had some annoying phenolic flavors from rye when it gets beyond 25% of the grist, but if you are getting good results from 50% then by all means - go for it. My second rye beer I used 50% rye malt and I mashed the heck out of it for hour, and the wort, and to a much lesser extent the beer had an odd oily, oat-like texture, perhaps due to laminarose sugars/gums. Some confusing terms here: All grains contain insoluble hemicellulose and hot-water soluble gums. These are both bet-glucans, but we brewers are only interested in the soluble gums. These consist of complex polymers of sugars, but both include beta-1-4 links which are difficult to deal with. Hemicellulose is *mostly* b-1-4 and b-1-3 linked glucose while the smaller gum polymers contain high levels of pentose sugars (arabinose, xylose, ribose). Raw barley is ~8% hemicellulose and ~2% gums, but during malting the level of gums initially rises, then falls. The fall is mostly the degradation releasing arabinose, xylose, ribose etc. It's hard to find solid figure, and the numbers certainly vary with the cultivar, but I expect raw rye has 2x or even 3x or more gums, and the shortened malting cycle makes the problem worse. Note that yeast DO use pentose sugars via a pentose-monophosphate pathway we seldom discuss. More of the pentose ends up incorporated in the yeast cell, but fermentation also occurs. It has long been thought that if brewers could break down the B-1-4 (say add an enzyme to the mash tun and denature in the boiler) that this would be a major advance in brewing efficiency. Many grains such as rye and sorghum would be more accessible. The term "beta-glucans" refers to these smaller MW soluble polymers that make beer viscous and can interfere with wort separation. - -- Back to Mike's specific problem I appreciate that you want to mash the rye well, since it is likely undermodified, but I think your choices for a mash schedule (you don't mention times) are a bit random. Grist selection: The amount of soluble beta-glucans gums in rye malt will vary with the rye cultivar and even from batch-to-batch as the malting cycle varies. Choosing another rye malt, or even a different batch may have a dramatic effect on the level of gums. The so called "beta-gluconase"(BG) enzymes are the ones you want to use intensively when mashing rye. High kilning temps denature BG, so for example pale-ale or munich malt has almost no BG activity. You must mash the rye with a low-kilned light lager malt. In my experience most rye is high-kilned and so it cannot degrade its own gums. Mashing: Since rye is likely very undermodified it is one the very few cases where the ancient decoction idea validly applies to modern malt. This cannot be said of *any* modern barley or wheat malt. Another more simple approach that I would recommend is to use a "cereal mash" technique for the rye. These are only options to consider. A conventional step mash will work too but perhaps at lower efficiency and a more complex issue with protein/haze. The BG rest temperature is optimal around 95-105F/35-40C. You will want a good long rest at this temperature - 40-60 minutes would think. You can use a relatively thick mash, but not much less than 1 qt/lb. The long time is due to the fact you have little BG enzyme to start with and a lot of gums to deal with. Typical rye will have a lot of HMW protein which will certainly lead to protein haze unless handled. It will also be relatively low in FAN and LMW protein, but this isn't likely to be a yeast-nutrition issue w/ 50% normal barley malt. Still this calls for a good rest between 113F-131F/45-55C and I would suggest no higher than that midpoint. 122F/50C. Despite popular claims the higher half of that range isn't much better than the lower half in degrading HMW protein, and has the added benefit (in your case) of bumping up the FAN level a bit, and the enzymes work longer at the lower range. Be aware that your barley malt already has it's protein well-degraded by the maltster, so the balancing act is to degrade the rye proteins enough to avoid haze, but not drop the total protein enough to kill head & body. Actually the beta-glucans add a lot to head and body, so you can err on the size of over degradation of protein. Because rye is undermodified it will continue to "leak" starch every time you bump the temperature. I'll suggest a full mashout at at least 168F, but not above 175F, and a 15 minute rest (yest AA is still active and will clear the starch. So as a starting point ...: 50% rye malt, 50% barley malt with no less than 10% as pale lager malt. mash-in/BG rest - 100F/40-60 min protein rest - 120F/20min (increase if haze persists) saccharification - 149F-163F (brewers choice for dextrins) mashout - 168F/20min As I said you can start with a thick mash-in, say 0.9-1qt/lb and bump the temp with boiling water boluses. It's no crime to have the saccharification and mashout well above 2qt/lb. Most German pale beers and decoctions saccharify at 2.5qt/lb and may add more water for mashout. Note that beta-glucans processing can reduce, but never eliminate the b-glucans body effect. The enzymes merely snip-down the b-g molecules, but don't eliminate them. FWIW commercial brewers often use beta-glucanase enzyme additions when the raw-grist gets very high. That would work here too *if* you can find it. -S Return to table of contents
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