---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


***************************************************************
        OCTOBER'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY: 

                 Ypsilanti Brewing Company
        Visit them at http://www.ypsilantibrewing.com/ 
			 
    Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's site!
********** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html *********

DONATE to the Home Brew Digest. Home Brew Digest, Inc. is a 
501(c)3 not-for-profit organization under IRS rules (see the
FAQ at http://hbd.org for details of this status). Donations
can be made by check to Home Brew Digest mailed to:

HBD Server Fund
PO Box 871309
Canton Township, MI 48187-6309

or by paypal to address serverfund@hbd.org. DONATIONS of $250 
or more will be provided with receipts. SPONSORSHIPS of any 
amount are considered paid advertisement, and may be deductible
under IRS rules as a business expense. Please consult with your 
tax professional, then see http://hbd.org for available 
sponsorship opportunities.
***************************************************************


Contents:
  Re: Pseudo Lagering ("Craig S. Cottingham")
  wort ("Fred Scheer")
  Re: Pseudo Lagering (Randall Ricchi)
  Re: Pseudo Lagering (Jeff Renner)
  RE: Commercial Sparging ("Kevin Weaver")
  Re: Pseudo Lagering (Kai Troester)
  The effect of mash parameters on fermentability and efficiency (Kai Troester)


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*           The HBD Logo Store is now open!             *
*            http://www.hbd.org/store.html              *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*   Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!   *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
  "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org FROM THE E-MAIL
  ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!**
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, you cannot subscribe to
  the digest as we cannot reach you. We will not correct your address
  for the automation - that's your job.

HAVING TROUBLE posting, subscribing or unsusubscribing? See the HBD FAQ at
http://hbd.org.

LOOKING TO BUY OR SELL USED EQUIPMENT? Please do not post about it here. Go
instead to http://homebrewfleamarket.com and post a free ad there.

The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright 
  HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK 
  before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content 
  cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit.

More information is available by sending the word "info" to 
req@hbd.org or read the HBD FAQ at http://hbd.org.

JANITORs on duty: Pat Babcock (pbabcock at hbd dot org), Jason Henning,
                  and Spencer Thomas



----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 23:30:21 -0600
From: "Craig S. Cottingham" <craig.cottingham at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Pseudo Lagering

On Nov 19, 2008, at 16:20, "Lance Harbison" <harbison65 at  
verizon.net> wrote:

> How
> important is the lowering of the temperature to lagering  
> temperature at a
> rate of 1-2 degrees per day, since when space opens in the fridge  
> any keg
> will simply be plopped in?

I've never tried it myself, but I can't imagine that a slow,  
controlled lowering of temperature is strictly necessary. Bavarian  
caves weren't fitted with Ranco controllers when lagering was  
invented, to my knowledge.

- --
Craig S. Cottingham
BJCP Certified judge from Olathe, KS ([621, 251.1deg] Apparent  
Rennerian)
craig.cottingham at gmail.com
+1 (913) 826-6896 or Skype me at CraigCottingham





Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 06:16:04 -0600
From: "Fred Scheer" <fredscheer at gmail.com>
Subject: wort

HI Fred:
Sorry for posting a bit late, but we are getting ready here for
the MBAA One Day Technical Conference in Gatlingburg.
I would like to give you an example of our brewery.
Please keep in mind that depending on strength of beer, style, etc,
more malt and more water is used, but you know that.
The example I give is an average:
The day of brewing
10 BBL water at 170*F
1 BBL to heat mash-tun
4 BBL mash - in H20
grist/water ratio  1:2.8
sparge water 5 BBL
First wort between 2.2 and 2.7 BBL
Kettle full 8 BBL

sparging ~ 3 gal/min;  ~ 50 min, most times <3gal/min, and 60 min sparge
the same is for the total run, ~ 3 gal (or less) per min., meaning
kettle is full ~ 80 minutes

Ihope you where looking for that info,

Fred (you know, the other Fred)


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 07:50:51 -0500
From: Randall Ricchi <rricchi at houghton.k12.mi.us>
Subject: Re: Pseudo Lagering

This is one of those situations where you do the best you can with what 
you have. Ideally you would drop the temp gradually (5 degrees per day 
is good) so that you don't shock the yeast, but what you're going to do 
will work just as well, I think. While the 3 unrefrigerated kegs are 
waiting there turn in the cold, they will continue to mature, the yeast 
cleaning up after itself, and doing so at a faster rate than it would in 
the cold.
Even with regular ale yeasts that don't work well in the cold (if at 
all) prolonged cold storage somehow "cleans up" the flavor profile of a 
beer. Possibly the coagulation and settling of polyphenols is the reason?
>
> Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 16:20:16 -0500
> From: "Lance Harbison" <harbison65 at verizon.net>
> Subject: Pseudo Lagering
>
> I just kegged (in 4 cornies) 17 gal of Altbier.  I plan on lagering each 
> keg, but currently only have room for 1 of the kegs in my fridge.  The 
> remaining 3 kegs are resting in my 60F basement until space opens up.  How 
> important is the lowering of the temperature to lagering temperature at a 
> rate of 1-2 degrees per day, since when space opens in the fridge any keg 
> will simply be plopped in?  Similarly, are there any negatives to delayed 
> lagering?
>
> Lance Harbison
> Pittsburgh 
>
>
>   


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 08:08:47 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jsrenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Pseudo Lagering

"Lance Harbison" <harbison65 at verizon.net>  wrote from Pittsburgh:

> I just kegged (in 4 cornies) 17 gal of Altbier.  I plan on lagering  
> each
> keg, but currently only have room for 1 of the kegs in my fridge.  The
> remaining 3 kegs are resting in my 60F basement until space opens  
> up.  How
> important is the lowering of the temperature to lagering  
> temperature at a
> rate of 1-2 degrees per day, since when space opens in the fridge  
> any keg
> will simply be plopped in?  Similarly, are there any negatives to  
> delayed
> lagering?

Lance, Lance, Lance.  You live in Pittsburgh!  How about using that  
big fridge with the blue ceiling?  Well, this time of year, the gray  
ceiling.

Or even better, if you have a garage, it's probably staying above  
freezing this time of year.

Either way, it will take some management, especially if you put the  
kegs outdoors.  For that you could make a box of styrofoam sheets or  
even cardboard, and bring the kegs inside for a short time when they  
get too cold.  Even if the beer actually freezes, it won't hurt, and  
may actually help clarify it.

I think that you are being too conservative regarding the rate of  
temperature drop.  It's important not to shock the yeast so that it  
can continue to slowly ferment any residual sugars, but it can  
survive a drop of 5-10 degrees F per day, as I understand it.  I just  
put my green beers in the fridge and figure that the thermal mass  
probably slows the drop enough to keep from shocking the yeast, and  
it always works.

While it shouldn't hurt too much to delay lagering, you may lose some  
of the freshness that would be preserved at cold temperatures.  At  
near freezing, your beer will stay in prime condition far longer.

And while altbier it traditionally lagered at around 40F/4C rather  
than the 32F/0C or even colder for bottom fermenting lagers, I think  
I'd just go for as cold as is convenient.

Jeff

PS - Lance's post is a prime example of why I always ask folks to  
include their location in their posts.  Aside from contributing to a  
sense of community, it often helps to answer questions, as in this case.

- ---
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, jsrenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943





Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 10:46:51 -0500
From: "Kevin Weaver" <kweaver at brewmation.com>
Subject: RE: Commercial Sparging

I'm hoping more readers post their opinions about the two methods...1)
collecting the complete volume in the kettle and 2) topping up the
kettle with make-up water.

I find the two posts interesting because our brewery designs have always
provided the means of using the make up water.  On my personal system, I
have it programmed to give me the option of doing either method for
testing purposes.  The only difference I have seen is a calculated
increase in efficiency while using method #2.  Of course there are many
factors to this, such as sparging time, grain bills, actual efficiency
of the MT etc.  We use peristaltic pumps so the sparge time is very
predictable and repeatable, so perhaps this is why the variation between
the two methods is minimal and I do not run into PH issues.  It's just
made me question how necessary the added cost of providing the "make-up"
water option really is.  Adding this to the semi-auto system is not a
big deal... However, for the fully automatic system it does add to the
cost.

Does anyone have results/opinions they can share?  There are a lot of
brewers designing their own systems so I would think it's a good topic.

Kevin

Brewmation Incorporated
www.brewmation.com



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 13:00:18 -0500
From: Kai Troester <kai at braukaiser.com>
Subject: Re: Pseudo Lagering

> How
> important is the lowering of the temperature to lagering temperature at a
> rate of 1-2 degrees per day, since when space opens in the fridge any keg
> will simply be plopped in?  Similarly, are there any negatives to delayed
> lagering?

The importance of lowering the temperature gradually depends on if the  
yeast is still needed or not. If it is not needed (i.e. all the sugars  
that the yeast was supposed to eat are eaten and diacetyl and other  
young beer components have been sufficiently reduced) there is no  
problem with "crashing" the yeast. In this case lagering only serves  
to cold stabilize the beer by precipitating hazes.

In your case, and most other home brewer's case, fermentation is  
complete before lagering starts. Especially if a warm rest (aka  
diacetyl rest) is done at the end of primary fermentation or if  
primary fermentation is extended until there is no airlock activity  
left and the yeast has dropped out. In these cases you can just crash  
the beer. That's what I do and I have also found out the hard way that  
it is rather tricky to keep the yeast active enough while lowering the  
temp. The result have been uderattenuated beers.

So you will be fine with serial lagering for these kegs of Altbier,  
especially since the yeast can take care of the beer while it is still  
sitting at 60F. B/c of fermentation space constrains I had to forgo  
lagering on my current Altbier. I only clarified it with gelatin and  
then bottled with a lager yeast to allow for carbonation in the 60F  
basement. The beer is great.

Kai





Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 15:57:30 -0500
From: Kai Troester <kai at braukaiser.com>
Subject: The effect of mash parameters on fermentability and efficiency


For most of this year I have been conduction micro scale mashing
experiments that were designed to evaluate the effects that mash.
I already posted intermediate results earlier this year, but now
I have finally wrapped up the experiment and posted the results
on my site:

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Limit_of_attenuation_experiment

There is also a PDF version (which prints better, sorry about the
wrap on the address. But HBD needs me to keep the line length below
80):

http://braukaiser.com/documents/
Effects_of_mash_parameters_on_attenuation_and_efficiency.pdf

And James Spencer from Basic Brewing Radio interviewed me for this
week?s podcast:

http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=radio

All in all, this has been a quite interesting series of experiments
for me with a few surprises. The surprises were that mash thickness
has hardly any effect on fermentability but it can have a significant
effect on efficiency. The thinner mashes showed better results with
respect to their ability to convert the starch in the grist. Another
surprise was that the efficiency in these micro mashes was not as good
as the one I get in the 5 gal mashes I make to brew beer. In those big
mashes I can get 100% conversion efficiency (i.e. convert all the
starch present in the mash) whereas I did not see this for any of the
mashes in the experiment.

Kai





Return to table of contents

---