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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


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Contents:
  clearing oxygen (Tom Gardner)
  Stratification ("A. J. deLange")
  Filling cornys ("Mike Maag")
  CO2 and oxygen (Tom Gardner)
  Re: Keg Purging..Gas Mixing .etc (Bob Sheck)
  Plain text and purging (David Root)


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Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 23:41:22 -0500 (EST)
From: Tom Gardner <tomagardner at cs.com>
Subject: clearing oxygen


I clean my cornies with hot PBW and sanitize them by filling with StarSan.  
Then I push the StarSan into the next keg with CO2.  This leaves the 
keg clean, sanitized and full of pressurized CO2.

Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2012 09:34:02 -0500
From: "A. J. deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: Stratification

Stratification is real. We've all seen examples of it. The grammar 
school science demonstration where a lit candle is put in the bottom of 
one pitcher while vinegar and baking soda are put into the bottom of 
another is one. The CO2 (not the liquid) from the second is then poured  
into the first and the candle goes out. If you have ever ridden a 
motorcycle on a calm summer's eve you have experienced a sudden 
temperature drop when you go through a low lying area. Apparently an 
insurance inspector upon arriving at a gas explosion knows as soon as he 
approaches the house knows the cause. If the roof and attic are blow off 
it was natural gas. If the basement is blown out it was propane.

But stratification is not the the equilibrium condition. The  model I 
gave in an earlier post says that when CO2 and air are put into a 
container, even if the CO2 is layered on the bottom initially, at 
thermodynamic equilibrium they will be mixed. But thermodynamics does 
not say how long it will take for equilibrium to be reached nor, indeed, 
whether it will ever be reached. All it tells us is what the most 
probable state is. As an example the model I posted says that cold CO2 
at the bottom of a Cornelius keg would stay there longer than hot 
nitrogen and oxygen would stay in the headpace  because the molecules of 
CO2 would (being colder and heavier) move more slowly. It is also 
possible that we could put hot air over a layer of cold CO2 and come 
back a day later and find the cold CO2 in the headspace and the hot air 
at the bottom as the motions of the molecules are random. But the most 
probable state in the case of air and CO2 at a few atmospheres is the 
uniformly mixed state and the probability of any other state is so much 
lower that it can be considered 0.

Now this is based on the assumption that the gasses are ideal i.e. the 
molecules do not interact with one another. If they do, in particular if 
they repel one another as in the case Spencer mentioned of oil and water 
molecules. Whatever was it Pete's tanks it wasn't ideal gasses. May not 
have been gasses at all i.e. they might have been above critical 
pressure. Carbon dioxide, nitrogen and oxygen are pretty close to ideal 
at a few atmospheres.

As to Spencer's wondering about how long a 'blanket' of CO2 might 
remain: he could do some simple experiments like fill a corny with CO2 
(and do a couple of purge cycles to be sure its mostly CO2), bleed down 
to atmospheric, remove the lid and lower a candle (or match on one of 
those grabbers that comes with gas barbecues) into the mouth. It will go 
out. Repeat after an hour, 2 hrs etc. As air diffuses down into the CO2 
and CO2 diffuses out into the air he should be able to lower the match 
or candle progressively lower and lower.

A.J.

Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 08:39:04 -0600
From: "Mike Maag" <mikemaag at comcast.net>
Subject: Filling cornys

When I transfer wert into a corny, I gently add cold CO2 to the keg.  Then 
push or siphon wert into the very bottom of the keg (either via the out 
tube, or a long siphon tube). As the wert exits the tube at the bottom of 
the keg, significant out gassing of CO2 occurs.  This out-gassing of CO2, 
plus the very high concentration of cold CO2 at the bottom of the keg, 
greatly reduces the up-take of O2  into the wert.  I often take over 6 
months to empty a keg, with no detectable oxidation.

Mike Maag
Shenendoah Valley 



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 13:45:03 -0500 (EST)
From: Tom Gardner <tomagardner at cs.com>
Subject: CO2 and oxygen

Even if there is enough CO2 to poison someone, it doesn't mean that there is
no O2.	I think that when the level of CO2 gets to 10-15% it is enough to
poison a person.  I  have fermented, transferred and served beer in my 100
year old basement for 14 years without opening windows and it has no air
vents.	If CO2 didn't diffuse out I would have died a long time ago.

There are various shows on youtube showing gases stratifying, but all with
super-massive gases.  And even they diffuse within seconds. 

Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 23:33:29 -0500
From: Bob Sheck <bobsheck at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Keg Purging..Gas Mixing .etc

I've never worried about this. Got my properly sanitized corny at the
ready, rack beer to it, close lid, blow CO2 into the gas-in port while
bleeding off the (I dunno whatchamakalit safety valve) a few times and then
RDWHAHB.

Beer doesn't last long around here to worry about it.

If  you guys are that anal about it, then fill the keg to the brim with
sanitized water and blow it all out with CO2. I've tried that a couple
times, and didn't notice any difference. Beer lasted about as long as when
I didn't do it. (We have a lot of thirsty people around here, me included)

- -- 
Bob Sheck
Greenville, NC

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Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2012 10:50:15 -0800 (PST)
From: David Root <david_root2000 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Plain text and purging

I had to fill a keg after reading the last few digests.  
This keg has a fixed relief valve.  
I cleaned it then added star san.  
I put on the tap and purged the tank 3 times at about 15 psi.
 Next I filled the keg and purged the headspace 
3 more times by pushing on the IN poppet to vent the tank.

Is it still 66 characters to post?

David



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