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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: Sourdough ("Greg 'groggy' Lehey")
  Re: Sourdough (Thomas Rohner)


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Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 16:49:42 +1000
From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" <grog at lemis.com>
Subject: Re: Sourdough

On Saturday, 29 September 2012 at  8:18:52 +0200, Thomas Rohner wrote:
> Hi John

I assume this is a reply to a message I missed.

> If you are looking for a wonderful french sourdough culture, you can
> order it here:
>
> http://www.sourdo.com/
>
> No affiliations, i even had it shipped to Switzerland and it was
> worth it.

Somehow I'm reminded of Ordralfabe[acute]tix in the Asterix stories,
the fishmonger on the French coast who has his fish transported from
Lute[grave]ce (Paris).

After all, you say *French* sourdough.  You can get that in France,
where it's still used.  Presumably it is in Switzerland as well, but
if not you can drive a few kilometres north and get fresh sourdough in
just about any German town.

I'm continually amazed at the advice you get about sourdough in the
USA.  The site you quote is no exception: at
http://www.sourdo.com/home/
activation-instructions/activation-instructions-english/ it says:

  Each feeding will require discarding some of the mixture or the jar
  will overflow.  This is an opportunity to start a second jar to
  serve as a backup if required.

Sorry, this is nonsense.  Sourdough has been around for millennia.  It
wouldn't have survived if it had required such waste.  I satirized it
a few years back at
http://www.lemis.com/grog/diary-apr2009.php?topics=f

After some searching, I've come to the conclusion that sourdough is
considered esoteric in the USA, and that if you want to learn the real
sourdough tradition, you should go to places where it's still
mainstream.  The best site I've seen for sourdough is
http://www.der-sauerteig.com/ , which is full of good advice.  This
probably won't help John, but I'd be interested in your opinion of it.

One of the most interesting things on that site is (indirectly) an
explanation of *why* the sourdough tradition died out in
English-speaking countries: you don't need sourdough for wheat.  You
do for rye.  And people in central Europe eat rye rather than wheat
because until recently wheat wouldn't grow in the relatively cool
climate.  Doubtless sourdough wheat tastes good, but there's a
difference like night and day between rye bread baked with yeast and
rye bread baked with sourdough.

My own recipe: http://www.lemis.com/grog/recipes/bread.php

Greg
- --
Sent from my desktop computer.
Finger grog at FreeBSD.org for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
This message is digitally signed.  If your Microsoft MUA reports
problems, please read http://tinyurl.com/broken-mua

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Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 21:12:07 +0200
From: Thomas Rohner <t.rohner at bluewin.ch>
Subject: Re: Sourdough

Hi Greg

I tried to culture sourdoughs more than once.
The results were inconsistent. It worked twice, but also failed twice.
Not the leavening was the problem, it was the final breads aroma.

We use proven yeasts for brewing, so i wanted to bake with a proven culture.

You can find cultures at the local bakeries as well. Some will give it 
to you, others won't.

My order at sourdo.com didn't exactly break my account, my Wyeast orders 
were much more over the last 20 years ;-)
Driving to Germany also costs more, although i live close to the border.

I actually ordered the book from sourdo as well, but since i bake for 
quite some time, i read the recipes and procedures with some scepticism.

I also know "Poet" and der-sauerteig.de of course.

I'm more the wheat bread lover, mostly made with yeast preferments.

But after visiting Southern Tirol, i need to bake "Schuettelbrot" for my 
SWMBO.
My first attempt was with yeast and 30% rye. My next attempt will be 
with sourdough and 40-50% rye.

Cheers

Thomas

Am 30.09.2012 08:49, schrieb Greg 'groggy' Lehey:
> On Saturday, 29 September 2012 at  8:18:52 +0200, Thomas Rohner wrote:
>> Hi John
>
> I assume this is a reply to a message I missed.
>
>> If you are looking for a wonderful french sourdough culture, you can
>> order it here:
>>
>> http://www.sourdo.com/
>>
>> No affiliations, i even had it shipped to Switzerland and it was
>> worth it.
>
> Somehow I'm reminded of Ordralfabe[acute]tix in the Asterix stories,
> the fishmonger on the French coast who has his fish transported from
> Lute[grave]ce (Paris).
>
> After all, you say *French* sourdough.  You can get that in France,
> where it's still used.  Presumably it is in Switzerland as well, but
> if not you can drive a few kilometres north and get fresh sourdough in
> just about any German town.
>
> I'm continually amazed at the advice you get about sourdough in the
> USA.  The site you quote is no exception: at
> http://www.sourdo.com/home/
> activation-instructions/activation-instructions-english/ it says:
>
>    Each feeding will require discarding some of the mixture or the jar
>    will overflow.  This is an opportunity to start a second jar to
>    serve as a backup if required.
>
> Sorry, this is nonsense.  Sourdough has been around for millennia.  It
> wouldn't have survived if it had required such waste.  I satirized it
> a few years back at
> http://www.lemis.com/grog/diary-apr2009.php?topics=f
>
> After some searching, I've come to the conclusion that sourdough is
> considered esoteric in the USA, and that if you want to learn the real
> sourdough tradition, you should go to places where it's still
> mainstream.  The best site I've seen for sourdough is
> http://www.der-sauerteig.com/ , which is full of good advice.  This
> probably won't help John, but I'd be interested in your opinion of it.
>
> One of the most interesting things on that site is (indirectly) an
> explanation of *why* the sourdough tradition died out in
> English-speaking countries: you don't need sourdough for wheat.  You
> do for rye.  And people in central Europe eat rye rather than wheat
> because until recently wheat wouldn't grow in the relatively cool
> climate.  Doubtless sourdough wheat tastes good, but there's a
> difference like night and day between rye bread baked with yeast and
> rye bread baked with sourdough.
>
> My own recipe: http://www.lemis.com/grog/recipes/bread.php
>
> Greg
> --
> Sent from my desktop computer.
> Finger grog at FreeBSD.org for PGP public key.
> See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
> This message is digitally signed.  If your Microsoft MUA reports
> problems, please read http://tinyurl.com/broken-mua
>

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