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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Copper in Beer (Zymurgy-Winter 91) (S94TAYLO)
  Offtaste Beer (Joe Gabriel)
  Acid Carboy Source Near Virginia? (Marc Rouleau)
  Culturing Chimay Yeast:  A Question (Martin A. Lodahl)
  Cleaning your wort chiller (hersh)
  New acid carboys (Darren Evans-Young)
  Re: Sanitizing, Sanity, and Multiple Yeast-Caking (Marc Rouleau)
  Multiple yeast caking (Carl West)
  Cleaning the Bruheat element (BAUGHMANKR)
  BJCP to be given in Charlotte, NC. April 26. (BAUGHMANKR)
  Sorry! (Rick Myers)
  Seattle Beer and Travelling: Summary of Responses (Bill Thacker)
  RE:  Sanity and Insanity, cont. (FATHER BARLEYWINE)
  Beer in the Quad Cities (MC2331S)


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[Please do not send me requests for back issues]
Archives are available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


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Date:     Wed, 20 Mar 91 06:18 EST
From: <S94TAYLO%USUHSB.BITNET at CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject:  Copper in Beer (Zymurgy-Winter 91)

One reader doubted that Bud is brewed in copper kettles, but I would guess
that it is.  Copper is the industry standard for brewing kettles.  In my
experience, copper has been used in every brewery I have visited or heard
about, including Coors (their brewing room is incredible:  40-50 500+barrel
kettles all in one room.)  Since copper is a micronutrient, the amount required
to make rats more healthy, or humans for that matter, is quite small.  Since
very few homebrewers use copper brew kettles, maybe users of copper immersion
coolers SHOULD sanitize right in the wort, to get all the health benefits of
homebrew we have been claiming for so many years ("Trust me, honey, it won't
give you a hangover, no matter how many you drink.")
Al Taylor
Uniformed Services University
School of Medicine
Bethesda, Maryland
s94taylor at usuhsb.bitnet

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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 91 09:10 EST
From: hplabs!ardent!uunet!pdn.paradyne.com!jgg (Joe Gabriel)
Subject: Offtaste Beer

My beer partner and I have been brewing since early January. Our first batch
(came with kit) was a delightful amber. We ventured on to an Ironmaster Lager, 
then to a John Bull Bitter. The problem that we are experiencing, starting with
our second batch and continuing through 3 more batches is, what can be most
accurately described as, a "metallic" offtaste in our finished product. 
We have been pounding our heads trying to figure how to get rid of this 
repugnant flavor. Here are some of the things we think may be contributing 
to the problem:

	1. second batch (Ironmaster Lager) was 2nd staged in a plastic 
	   container for an extra week.

	2. heavy bleach solution used to sterilize bottles...rinsed with cool
	   water.

	3. inability to chill wort to below 80 degrees before pitching 
	   the yeast.

	4. again, sterilizing the bottle caps with heavy bleach solution, then
	   rinsing with cool water(caps are taken directly from post-rinse cool
	   water dish, and placed onto filled bottles to be capped).
	   

I vote for 2 and 4 for the most likely culprits in the case of the "offtaste"
beers. The reasons being, thinking way back when, our first batch bottles 
were rinsed thoroughly with warm water. Also, the bottle caps used for that 
batch were not sterilized at all.

Admittedly we are novices in this homebrew business, and we appreciate all
the help and wisdom we can get from more experienced homebrewers. So,
any comments and/or further ideas on how we can rid ourselves of the
offtaste we've been experiencing will be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Joe Gabriel

P.S. Waiting impatiently for our TCJOHB to be delivered to our bookstore.


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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1991 12:40:31 EST
From: Marc Rouleau <mer6g at fuggles.acc.Virginia.EDU>
Subject: Acid Carboy Source Near Virginia?

I'd like to get another 6.5 gallon carboy or two.  My usual
supplier, Alternative Beverage in Charlotte, NC (which has
great prices and fast service: call 1-800-365-BREW) only
occasionally has them in.

Can someone point me to a supplier who's only a UPS zone or
two away from me in Charlottesville, VA?

    -- Marc Rouleau

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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 91 7:18:55 PST
From: Martin A. Lodahl <pbmoss!malodah at decwrl.dec.com>
Subject: Culturing Chimay Yeast:  A Question

A question, for brewers who've succeeded in culturing Chimay yeast
from the bottle:  is that stuff slow and fastidious in its action? 
Does it normally tend to mostly hang around the bottom of the
bottle, adding to the burdens of its parents?  Or is it just that
I've had two bad batches in a row?

The first attempt I threw out after 10 days.  It had shown a little
activity on about the 3rd through 5th days, but not at all what I'm
accustomed to.  That didn't surprise me; the bottle was more than 2
years old.  The bottle I'm working on now was dated 09-90, but the
results are substantially the same.  I'm getting about 2 glups per
minute after 3 days, with no visible surface activity.  This evening
I plan to dump the whole works into a flask of starter, laced with
yeast nutrient.  Maybe that'll help.

Is this normal behavior for this yeast?

= Martin A. Lodahl   			  Pacific*Bell Staff Analyst =
= malodah at pbmoss.Pacbell.COM       Sacramento, CA       916.972.4821 =
= If it's good for ancient Druids, runnin' nekkid through the wuids, =
= Drinkin' strange fermented fluids, it's good enough for me!  8-)   =


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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 91 13:14:52 EST
From: hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Cleaning your wort chiller


B-Brite works real well for cleaning wort chillers. Set the chiller in a bath
of B-Brite, leave ti there while your wort boils, rinse it off with cold tap
water, then drop it into the boiling wort to assure sterility.
Never a problem in 2 years doing it this way.

JaH

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Date:         Wed, 20 Mar 91 12:09:38 CST
From: Darren Evans-Young <DARREN at UA1VM.UA.EDU>
Subject:      New acid carboys


What do you acid carboy users do to clean your newly obtained carboys?
I've rinsed and rinsed and rinsed with hot/cold water, bleach solution,
sodium bicarb., etc., and I still have this slight film that seems to
rise to the surface.  I dont want to ruin a batch (or have toxic beer).

Any suggestions?

Darren

*---------------------------------------------------------------------------*
| Darren Evans-Young, Sys Prg                  BITNET: DARREN at UA1VM.BITNET  |
| The University of Alabama                  Internet: DARREN at UA1VM.UA.EDU  |
| Seebeck Computer Center                       Phone: (205)348-3988 / 5380 |
| Tuscaloosa, Alabama  35487-0346                      (205)348-3993 FAX    |
*---------------------------------------------------------------------------*

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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1991 13:44:46 EST
From: Marc Rouleau <mer6g at fuggles.acc.Virginia.EDU>
Subject: Re: Sanitizing, Sanity, and Multiple Yeast-Caking

On Mar 19,  7:59pm, rransom at bchm1.aclcb.purdue.edu wrote:
> 
> 	Sound horrid?  I have brewed up to 10 "generations" on the same cake
> and it is wonderful.  The beers get progressively smoother and especially 
> creamier, with heads to die for and teeny tiny bubbles.  The beers are ready
> to drink right out of the fermenter, and after three days in the keg with 
> minimal priming are being drunk.  Totally finished.  Best idea I ever had.

What do you do with your trub?  It didn't sound from your description
that you were using the cool-way-down-let-warm-overnight-and-rack method
I've read about here and in Dave Miller's TCHOHB.

I've not tried that method because I hate to waste the wort that
inevitably would be left with the trub.  Also I generally don't want
to have to finish a brewing session the next morning.  I'd like to
go to sleep with everything all set.

I haven't heard much about my method here.  I have a fine-mesh nylon
straining bag that I use to filter the chilled wort.  I put it in a
stainless steel colander, suspend the colander above a big bucket,
and pour 65 degree wort into it.  When it gets clogged I squeeze all
the standing liquid through it, dump the dry trub, and continue.  2-3
iterations are enough.

The amount of dry trub always amazes me.  I'd guess this procedure
nets 3-4 cups of it.  (I use a half teaspoon of Irish moss during the
last 15 minutes of the boil.  I don't know how much the Irish moss
is responsible for since I've never omitted it.)

Perhaps the squeezing is allowing trub to get through, or perhaps
the wort isn't chilled enough for it all to precipitate out, but
I notice that a half inch of sediment accumulates almost immediately
in my carboy.  And when the fermentation gets going lots of particles
disperse throughout the churning beer.  (I'd love to hear comments
regarding this approach.  With only my eighth batch in the fermenter
I still have lots to learn.)

How do you deal with trub accumulation?  I've heard that the oils in
it serve as yeast food and contribute to fusel alcohols and other
off flavors.  Is this not true?  Or do you avoid getting it into the
fermenter in the first place?  If so, how?

Any other single-stagers want to comment on trub?

> hideous looking rings of dried yeast have no effect on the next wort (if you
> fill the later fermentations past the level of the old one).

I imagine that in order to maintain the same volume of beer atop an
increasingly thick yeast/trub cake you'd have to fill higher anyway,
but I'm surprised that you have been able to use a cake ten times
while always filling the fermentor above the level of dried deposits.
It seems as though you'd run out of headroom after only two or three
batches.  Most of my batches were fermented with Wyeast 1007 (German
Ale), and the krausen is always at least two inches high.  Does
Whitbread Ale yeast not froth up as much?  Or do your low fermentation
temperatures result in a lower level at high krausen?  How much does
the cake increase in volume from batch to batch?

Is it perhaps not critical that the yeast deposits be covered with
liquid at the start of a new fermentation?

Thanks for the great idea.  I'll certainly try it with my next batch.

    -- Marc Rouleau

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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 91 14:19:40 EST
From: eisen at ileaf.com (Carl West)
Subject: Multiple yeast caking

The London Museum Catalogue has a photograph of a 15th century
jug that has a tap-hole about an inch from the bottom. The author
speculates that it was for holding a liquor that had a sediment.
After reading Richard Ransom's article it strikes me that this 
would be a perfect vessel for making beer (albeit somewhat small, 
it looks as if it would hold about 1.5 gallons).

It is my impression that beer in those times was drunk pretty much
direct from the fermenter, no priming, no bottling. If this were the 
case, I could imagine a modest household having a couple or three of 
these fermenting jugs in the cellar or buttery which were regularly 
replenished with wort as they got low. I would guess that with an 
appropriate yeast, and steady consumption, a steady flow of beer could 
be maintained. Such a system would not require that the household brewer 
make huge batches of wort (which would be a plus because BIG pots were 
at least as hard to come by then as now), but only a gallon or two at a 
time. It also appears that it would save a good deal on sanitation and 
cleaning requirements.

Seems too simple. Not enough to worry about.

Now, Richard, the questions:

1. With this huge `pitching' rate, is the reason you're not getting
    `yeast bite' the fact that you're not aerating the wort *much*?
    You've already got the population, all the yeast has to do is
    get on with it's _anaerobic_ metabolisis (is that a word?). Is that it?

2. What about trub? 

3. What happens if you don't remove ALL the beer from on top of the cake
    (as would likely be the case in the scenario above) before adding the
    new wort?

4. I'm an extract brewer, is there any thing you would suggest changing in
    your method to adapt it to extract brewing?

 -Carl (my second batch is getting better with time) West


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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1991 14:52 EST
From: BAUGHMANKR at CONRAD.APPSTATE.EDU
Subject: Cleaning the Bruheat element

Thought I'd pass along a recent discovery.  Much has been said in 
these electronic pages and others about the problem of caramelization
of sugars on the Bruheat element.  Thanks to a hint from Tom 
Fogelsong, formerly of Sebastian Brewers, I've found that the Bruheat
element can be painlessly cleaned by adding a gallon or so of water
to the Bruheat (enough to cover the element) after a round of beer-
making, adding one tablespoon of B-Brite and boiling for a few
minutes.  The white crust comes off immediately.  Blackened crust
takes more patience-a couple of boilings, several days of 
soaking, and then light scrubbing with a non-abrasive pot scrubber.

Please pass this advice along to your Bruheat brewing buddies.

Sante,
Kinney Baughman
baughmankr at conrad.appstate.edu

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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1991 15:00 EST
From: BAUGHMANKR at CONRAD.APPSTATE.EDU
Subject: BJCP to be given in Charlotte, NC. April 26.


                     ***ANNOUNCEMENT***

I will be administering the BJCP exam April 26 in Charlotte, NC at the
Radisson Plaza Hotel.  This exam is being given in conjunction with
the US Open Homebrew Competition, also being held that week-end.

If you're interested in taking the BJCP exam at that time, please
e-mail me. (baughmankr at conrad.appstate.edu)

Thanks.
Kinney

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Date: Mon, 18 Mar 91 11:00:37 MST
From: Rick Myers <cos.hp.com!hpctdpe!rcm at hp-lsd>
Subject: Sorry!
Full-Name: Rick Myers

Sorry about the improper posting about engines to the Homebrew Digest!!!
I don't know what happened with my mailer...(blame it on the computer)!

- --
Rick Myers    rcm at hpctdpe.col.hp.com
Hewlett-Packard
Colorado Telecommunications Division

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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 91 13:22:33 EST
From: Bill Thacker <hplabs!hp-lsd.cos.hp.com!cbema!wbt>
Subject: Seattle Beer and Travelling: Summary of Responses


As promised, here is a summary of responses I received about carrying beer
on commercial airlines and Seattle beer.

On flying froth, my foamy friends freely forwarded the following advice:

In general, it was agreed that it is safest to carry on the beer, as
opposed to checking it in.  One writer suggested wrapping the bottles in
socks.  Several mentioned that the Gulf situation may have airlines a 
bit edgier over this, but I understand that the gov't has lifted the 
big security crunch, so perhaps that's no longer a problem.

On the other hand, Subbakrishna Shankar (sxs32 at po.CWRU.Edu) had this horror
story:

>	I once tried to take a couple of bottles of my homebrew
>on a domestic flight in my carry on luggage and was unsuccessful.
>I was forced to throw away my precious brew, with no reasonable
>explanation given. 

As a tie-breaker, I called Continental.  The person I spoke with had to
go check with management, but after a few minutes returned and told me
that carryon would be best (for my beer's sake, not because of
restrictions) and that there should be no problem.

I'm swayed by Danny Breiden (dbreiden at mentor.cc.purdue.edu), who suggested
that bottles with labels would be more likely to pass a suspicious security
guard, and who also recommended against packing too thoroughly -- you
might have to open it all up for the guards.

Shipping via UPS was generally discouraged; cost is about $7-9 per dozen,
and UPS apparently would as soon not haul beer.  Also, concern was raised
about poor handling and extremes of temperature.


On Seattle's finest, a festive flurry of facts flooded forth.  Several
brewpubs and bars were suggested:

Big Time Brewery (University Way N.E. between 41st and 42nd) is very
convenient to the University of Washington.  Several people recommended it,
but without many specific comments.

Cooper's Ale House (8065 Lake City Way NE) - Wide variety (15, by one
author, 21 by another) of local beers on tap, and prices are reasonable.

Dew-wamps (Spelling conjectural) - Apparently a fairly new brewpub
near the Kingdome, across from FX McRory's.  Emphasis on cask-conditioned
ales in the British style.

Redhook (or Red Hook, depending on author) Ale Brewery (3600 Phinney Ave.
North) - Beer served at The Trolleyman, adjoining.  Non-smoking,
gives brewery tours.  One writer suggested that the same beer can be
had for less money four blocks east at the Red Door Tavern (Fremont),
which has 20-30 good beers on hand and a good menu.


The Latona Pub (6423 Latona NE), Red Door Alehouse (3401 Fremont Ave. N.,
Fremont) and The Duchess (55th NE) were all recommended as good bars
for finding local brews.  So was FX McRory's (near the Kingdome);  20 or 
so beers on tap, including Paulaner, Bass, and Young's, over 80 
bourbons, and first-rate food (a steakhouse).


Several beers came recommended by name:

Kemper Brewing (Hales) - Thomas Kemper Helles Lager, Hales Pale Ale
Redhook - Redhook ESB
Hart Brewing (Kalama) - Wheaten Ale, Snowcap Ale (seasonal), Sphinx Stout
Pacific Brewing Company (address not needed) - one author told me to
    avoid this place, saying the beer was lousy.
Hood River Brewing (Bridgeport, OR) - Full Sail Ale
Bridgeport Brewing (Bridgeport, OR) - Blue Heron Pale

For buying beer for takeout, Larry's Market (100th and Aurora) was
recommended.


My gratitude to those who sent in responses (I hope I didn't overlook
anyone !):

Dave Adams (adams at bostech.com)
Joe Peterson (abel at grinder.dataio.Data-IO.COM)
John Mellby (jmellby at skvax1.csc.ti.com)
Subbakrishna Shankar (sxs32 at po.CWRU.Edu) 
Jay Hersh (hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu)

 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker	AT&T Network Systems - Columbus      wbt at cbnews.att.com



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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1991 19:04:39 EST
From: rransom at bchm1.aclcb.purdue.edu (FATHER BARLEYWINE)
Subject: RE:  Sanity and Insanity, cont.


Hello again girls and boys---
	I received several mail messages about my little missive (or rant, as
it was described; at least they said "great rant") already, most about the 
trub issue.
	Currently I immersion coil cool my wort in the boiler, and then filter
it with a new nylon mesh filter funnel.  This is a nifty new item from the local
HB store, consisting of a large plastic funnel with a separate nylon mesh
filter that fits snugly into it (easily cleaned).  I have to filter in stages,
removing the hops and trub as the filter clogs, but compared to my old method
of running the beer through the coils it's much faster.  I used to filter the
trub with a funnel stuck in the end of the hose connected to the coils covered
with cheesecloth.  The pollen grains from the hops clogged the cheesecloth, 
slowing the rate but also yielding a nearly complete filtration.  Slow.
	At any rate, I don't have much problem with buildup of the yeast cake, 
and it's so firmly packed that the buildup that occurs doesn't take up much
space.  The yeast does stay in suspension for about 2 weeks after suspending
the old cake in new wort, but after 4-8 weeks most stuff settles.  I also
chill my freshly kegged brew a bit, and since I don't cut off my uptake tube
at all (it runs right to the bottom of the keg) I get the settled stuff
to come out in the first pint.  After the first pint is drawn the rest is 
crystal clear (sometimes two pints over a few days are required to clear all
the settled yeast).
	I get my grain from Briess Malting near Madison, and we buy in lots of
over 1000 lbs.  Before shipping we get 2-row American for 19 cents/lb, after
shipping about 23 cents.  I highly recommend their 90 levibond crystal.

	Here's a quick recipe:

	crush:
		16 lbs. 2-row brewer's malt 
		2 lbs   40 l  crystal malt
		2 lbs   90 l  crystal malt
	bring 5+ gallons water to 180 degrees, pour into 40 qt. or larger
	cooler chest, stir in crushed malt.  Check temperature, should be 
	near 155 degrees.  Mash stirring every 15 minutes for 2 hours.
		Sparge with 170+ degree water to yield 12 gallons.  Boil 
	for 1 hour, adding
		2 oz Northern Brewer leaf hops (Freshops) at 30 minutes
		3 oz Hallertauer leaf hops (Freshops) after turning off heat
	Cover and let sit 5 minutes.  Cool and pipe onto the yeast cake from
	a past batch (see HB Digest #600).
		SG:  who cares?  It's strong.
	Ferment at least 2 months at <65 degrees.  Drink.

I'd like to describe my 10 gallon mashing setup in a later article---so watch
out.  Thanks for the comments, it makes me feel like I might know something
after all.
			Love and frothy heads
				Father Barleywine
				(Richard Ransom   rransom at aclcb.purdue.edu)

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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 91 19:39 CDT
From: MC2331S at ACAD.DRAKE.EDU
Subject: Beer in the Quad Cities

	Since Iowa has fairly brain-damaged laws concering beer availibility,my
partner and I have decided to drive to the Quad Cities (probably Rock Island) totry to enlarge the beer varaity at his next party.  Does anybody know of a good
beer source in the Rock Island/Moline IL area?
	Thanks
	Mark Castleman
	(the now internationally famous) Big Dog Brewing Cooperative

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #601, 03/21/91
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