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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  High FG, BFD info (Russ Gelinas)
  Re: Trouble with Trub (HBD #655) (Jean Hunter)
  Please add me to the Homebrew Digest mailing list (Paul S R Chisholm)
  Bottle Anatomy (drop back ten and...)  (Carl West x4449)
  Re: Excessive sanitation (Desmond Mottram)
  Re: Brewery visits in the UK (Desmond Mottram)
  Cleaning counter-flow chillers, try TSP (Ken Giles)
  Bottle nomenclature (hersh)
  New Subscription (MIKE LIGAS)
  Why not strawberries? (Ron Ezetta)
  This list and a Syracuse, N.Y. Contest (IOCONNOR)
  Sterilizing chillers; straining hops (BAUGHMANKR)
  Trub Removal, etc. (Martin A. Lodahl)
  Re:  Homebrew Digest #655 (June 10, 1991) (Laura Lawson)
  Trub removal,cleaning copper,reusing yeast,cleaning counterflows (Darren Evans-Young)
  Re: Homebrew Digest #649 (May 31, 1991) (GOOOOOOOOOOD MOOOOOOOOOOORNING ACS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
  RE:Info About Scotland Needed (MIKE LIGAS)


Send submissions to homebrew%hpfcmi at hplabs.hp.com
Send requests to homebrew-request%hpfcmi at hplabs.hp.com
[Please do not send me requests for back issues]
Archives are available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


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Date:    Mon, 10 Jun 1991 9:11:45 EDT
From: R_GELINAS at UNHH.UNH.EDU (Russ Gelinas)
Subject: High FG, BFD info

  Mr. Ed's Oatmeal Stout is finally in the bottle.  I was hoping the
specific gravity would fall a little more, but it's done at 1.026,
down from 1.062.  I think the cause is a partial mash (3 lbs. pale 2-row
and 1 lb. oatmeal) at too high a temp.  The strike water was too hot, and
I didn't want to add too much cold water.  It spent too much time in the 
high 150's.  Have I made a reasonable deduction?

  Brew Free or Die members:  What was discussed at the meeting on Saturday?
I'd appreciate an e-mail overview if you were there. (7.5 month pregnant
wife + 2.5 year old daughter = .not.BFD meeting).  Thanks.

Russ      r_gelinas%unhh.unh.edu at mitvma.mit.edu


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Date:         Mon, 10 Jun 91 09:19:33 EDT
From: Jean Hunter <MS3Y at CORNELLA.cit.cornell.edu>
Subject:      Re: Trouble with Trub (HBD #655)

To add to the anti-trub arsenal:  I use leaf hops in a cotton mesh bag to
finish, generally adding them as I'm turning the heat off under my big
canning kettle. After the immersion chiller has done its work I fish out the
bag and lodge it atop the fine screen in my big funnel.  Then I siphon off
the wort through the hop bag.  Not only are extra hop flavor/aroma compounds
extracted out (I think!) but the bag and pad of hops act  as an effective
filter aid to catch trub and fragments of pellet hops.  After all the wort has
gone through, I press down on the bag with a big clean spoon to squeeze out
the last drops.
   Another decent alternative is to leave the last quart of wort and trub in
the boiling kettle.  After pitching, come back and filter out the trub with
a coffee filter, then freeze the wort.  Next time you want to make a starter
culture or some agar slants, you have known-quality wort all set to go with
only a brief sanitizing boil needed before use. Oh, you can also add your
O.G. sample to it unless you're a confirmed wort sipper (yum). -- Jean

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Date: Mon, 10 Jun 91 09:58:32 EDT
From: psrc%jupiter at epic.att.com (Paul S R Chisholm)
Subject: Please add me to the Homebrew Digest mailing list

Please add me to the Homebrew Digest mailing list.

Paul S. R. Chisholm, AT&T Bell Laboratories, paul.s.r.chisholm at att.com

P.S.:  This is not my first request, but the first bounced, and I
haven't gotten any response to my second.

P.P.S.:  If the rec.homebrew or rec.brewing Netnews group gets created,
would it be okay with you if someone forwarded the HBD to it?  (Yes,
I'd be happy to do this.)


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Date: Mon, 10 Jun 91 10:40:54 EDT
From: eisen at kopf.HQ.Ileaf.COM (Carl West x4449)
Subject: Bottle Anatomy (drop back ten and...) 

It's probably called a punt because that's where the glassblower 
would attach the punty when finishing the mouth and neck of the bottle. 
(I guess the cause/effect could be the other way).

My question is:

Why is there a punt? 


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Date: Mon, 10 Jun 91 17:36:53 BST
From: Desmond Mottram <swindon!des at uunet.UU.NET>
Subject: Re: Excessive sanitation

> I'd like to say that I took the
> discussion about excessive sanitation from a few months back to
> heart.  For these five batches I have used no bleach or any other
> special sanitary measure.  I just clean stuff to ordinary kitchen
> standards.  I rinse my bottles with tap water three times when I
> empty them and three times before I fill them.  I routinely top
> off my chilled wort with tap water to make five gallons.  I don't
> even worry about the dry brown stuff that sticks to the carboy
> after a fermentation is over.  I rinse most of it off with fresh
> wort when I drain it into the carboy.
> 

Either you've been lucky or I've been unlucky. Like you I just used to 
give everything a good wash out, often with boiling water. Notice the 
past tense though!! I got away with it for about ten batches. The last 
time I did this (about two years ago) I noticed fermenting bin was getting 
a bit brown and made a note to use a chlorine cleaner before the next 
brew. I was too late! It fermented messily all over the floor. It looked 
foul and slimy; it stank. I tried barreling it anyway in the hope it might 
come right. It didn't and I had to throw it away. It then took _ages_ to 
get the taint out of the barrel. It only takes one bad batch to change your
mind.

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Date: Mon, 10 Jun 91 17:47:30 BST
From: Desmond Mottram <swindon!des at uunet.UU.NET>
Subject: Re: Brewery visits in the UK

> 
> Date: Sun, 9 Jun 91 10:04:44 CST
> From: mike at ranger.bison.mb.ca (Mike Charlton)
> Subject: Brewery Tours in Britain
> 
> A friend and I are going to Britain for a few weeks in August (hopefully
> catch the CAMRA beer festival) and I was wondering if there was anyone
> out there who could recommend any brewery tours.  We will be going all
> over the place, so we could theoretically hit anything in Britain.  Also,
> I've heard that it's best to contact the brewery ahead of time to find
> out when tours are happening.  That being the case, could someone give me
> a pointer to the addresses of likely breweries so I can send them a letter.
> 
> 	      Thanks in advance,
> 		    Mike Charlton

A small selection straight off the top of my head:

	Hook Norton, Banbury, Oxon.
	Wadworths, Devizes, Wilts.
	Youngs, Wandsworth, London.
	Fullers, Chiswick, London.

There are hundreds of others. CAMRA may give you a more complete list. Mail
me for their address if you do not have it already.

Come to that, a tour of the whisky distilleries in Scotland can make for a 
glorious hazy holiday.

Desmond Mottram,
des at swindon.ingr.com
..uunet!ingr!swindon!d_mottram

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Date: Mon, 10 Jun 91 09:50:08 PDT
From: keng at ic.MENTORG.COM (Ken Giles)
Subject: Cleaning counter-flow chillers, try TSP

In HBD microsoft!larryba at cs.washington.edu says:

> The bummer with counterflow chillers is cleaning them out.  I have never
> figured out a satisfactory solution for the kitchen brewer.  Commercial
> microbrewers use nasty corrosive chemicals and lots of very hot water.

I've had good success with TriSodium Phosphate (TSP). TSP is not so corrosive to
be dangerous (gloves are recommended but I often get it on my arms with no ill
effects), but acts like a corrosive cleaner. I tried an experiment. After I 
rinsed and ran the usual bleach solution through my counter-flow chiller until
it ran clear, I ran a solution of TSP through, and it came out yellow and
eventually ran clear. The TSP was able to clean beyond the power of the bleach
solution alone. No real surprise. TSP is also great for dissolving the gunk out
of your blow-off hose.

TSP is available in the paint section of most hardware-type stores. It's used 
for preparing surfaces for painting. I've heard that some homebrew suppliers sell
a dry bleach/TSP combination called tri-chlor. I don't use this because I'm
typically only cleaning afterword (with TSP) or sanitizing beforehand (with
bleach).

Stay clean,

kg.

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Date: Mon, 10 Jun 91 14:08:17 EDT
From: hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Bottle nomenclature



> Does anyone else know any interesting bottle nomenclature?

Yes.

Empty- the state I prefer to leave mine in

:-) :-)


> Because I have on several occasions had a Miller go skunky on me within
> a matter of seconds of exposure to direct sunlight
The sunlight-hop reaction takes more than seconds. I seem to remember the
number of 30-45 minutes as being right to convert a sufficient quantity for the
skunkiness to breach the threshold for human detection. Of course you could
have an amazingly sensitive palatte to this substance..

From what I've heard/read Miller has a patented process which they use to treat
the hop oils (they don't add whole hops) that they add to their beer.

JaH


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Date: 	Mon, 10 Jun 1991 11:32:00 -0400
From: MIKE LIGAS <LIGAS at SSCvax.CIS.McMaster.CA>
Subject: New Subscription


Sorry to use HD space to request a subscription but I sent in a request to
the request address about a month ago and am yet to see any HDs in my mailbox.
I've been getting copies from a buddy and I thoroughly enjoy the forum and have
learned much by reading it. Keep up the good work...I raise a glass to all of
us.

Please subscribe ligas at sscvax.cis.mcmaster.ca

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Date: Mon, 10 Jun 91 14:22:25 PDT
From: Ron Ezetta <rone at loowit.wr.tek.com>
Subject: Why not strawberries?


  Soon the local strawberry crop (Washington and Oregon) will be ready.
  The thought of a pound, or so, of strawberries in a Rocky Raccoon Honey
  lager sounds delicious.

  However, I've noticed that *The Catus Meow* (an outstanding effort, btw),
  Papazian, nor HBD (from #577 to date) discuss strawberries as an
  ingredient in beer.  Why?  Any recipes or brewing suggestions?

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Date:    Mon, 10 Jun 1991 17:43:08 EDT
From: IOCONNOR at SUNRISE.ACS.SYR.EDU
Subject: This list and a Syracuse, N.Y. Contest

I just wanted to say that I really enjoy this list.  People are very 
friendly and will answer your questions, and there is not a lot of 
junk mail (like this message).  Subsacribers generally reply to 
questions off the list, and that saves all of us a lot of time.  
Overall this is the best list I've been on.

I was on one that just redistributed submissions automatically, and I 
used to get 50 messages a day--mostly "yes, I agree" and the like.  


The second point is for anyone who might be in the area of Syracuse, 
N.Y. on June 18.  The Club in Syracuse is having a contest and if you 
will be in town, then you should go.  It will be on June 18, at 7:15pm 
at a restaurant called Danzer's, Ainsley Drive, Syracuse.  Contact me 
for more details.

Kieran O'Connor

IOCONNOR at SUNRISE (bitnet)
IOCONNOR at SUNRISE.ACS.SYR EDU (internet)

P.S.  Sunny and 85 in Syracuse--prettyy amazing--time to go for a 
ride!

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Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1991 15:57 EST
From: BAUGHMANKR at CONRAD.APPSTATE.EDU
Subject: Sterilizing chillers; straining hops

Larry from Microsoft writes:

>The bummer with counterflow chillers is cleaning them out.  I have never
>figured out a satisfactory solution for the kitchen brewer.  Commercial
>microbrewers use nasty corrosive chemicals and lots of very hot water. I
>just rinse well after each use.  Before the next use I drain all the bleach
>solution used to sanitize my carboy through the chiller before draining the
>hot wort through it into the carboy.  I also toss the first pint of wort to
>make sure no bleach gets into my wort.  Probably draining a couple of gallons
>of boiling water through the chiller w/o chilling water would work as well
>as avoiding bleach.

Maybe commercial brewers use nasty corrosive chemicals but many 
brewpubs use boiling water or wort just like we do.  My technique is 
this:

Follow a chilling session with a gallon or so of boiling water through 
the coils after draining the chiller body of its water, to cut the 
malt sugars from the copper.  Usually I follow that up with some of the 
sterilant (I use 1 T. clorox per 1 gallon of water) that I've been 
using for that session, until the sterilant runs cool from the coil 
(since high temperatures destroy the disinfectant effects of clorox).  
Drain. Store dry.  

Prior to the next session of brewing, I will usually fill the chiller 
coils back up with the sterilant solution and let it sit for about 20 
minutes.  Drain.  When I begin the chill routine, I run the boiling hot 
wort through the chiller prior to filling the chiller body with water.  
The boiling hot wort will sterilize the coils for sure.  Toss the first 
few ounces of wort that comes through since some clorox will be in it.   
Let a quart or so of wort run through then return it to the boiler.  
Fill the chiller body with water and let 'er rip. 

The boiling wort through the coils is what really does the trick with 
this routine just like it does with immersion chillers.  So why do I 
still use the clorox solution?  It's simple.  It only takes a minute 
and I'm paranoid as hell! 


The most effective means for straining wort into the fermenter 
discussion has popped back up so here again is my pot-scrubber-in-a-
mesh-bag technique for filtering hops: 

I've never been a fan of pouring wort through a filter because filters 
clog and you're bound to pour at least some trub into the fermenter. 

Buy a copper wound pot scrubber and a fine mesh hop bag.  Also get a 
rather thick rubber band.  It also helps to have a copper pick-up tube 
if you're going to siphon hot wort into your fermenter.  If you're 
cooling it first, one of those plastic pick-up tubes will do the trick. 

Tie the pot scrubber around the bottom of the pick-up tube (the end 
that's going into the wort).  Then tie the fine mesh hop bag around 
that, in effect putting the pot scrubber in a bag.  (Oh, yes, "No see-
um netting" from a camping store works well, also.) 

Tie a small 1/4" overhand loop in one end of the rubber band.  Loop the 
other big end around and through the handle on your boiling pot.  Now 
slip the pick-up tube through the small end of the rubber band.   If 
you've tied the small loop small enough, the rubber band will grab the 
pick-up tube at whatever position you want.  Suspend the pick-up tube a 
couple of inches below the top level of the wort.  Start your siphon.  
The mesh bag/pot scrubber combo will effectively filter out all the hop 
leaves and particles.  By siphoning from the top level of the wort, 
you'll always be siphoning off the clearest portion of the wort.  As 
the level of the wort recedes, slowly inch the pick-up tube down 
accordingly, always keeping it an inch or two below the surface.  This 
technique will give you the cleanest possible run-off into the 
fermenter without clogging the siphon. 

Others have commented on the effect of whirlpooling the wort before 
starting the siphon, so I won't comment on that.

Cheers,

Kinney Baughman
baughmankr at conrad.appstate.edu
baughmankr at appstate.bitnet
L+\f~jw

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Date: Mon, 10 Jun 91 15:21:02 PDT
From: Martin A. Lodahl <pbmoss!malodah at PacBell.COM>
Subject: Trub Removal, etc.

Ah yes, trub removal.  The method I use seems to alarm some people,
but the only trouble I've ever had with it is when it works too
well.

I use an immersion chiller.  At the end of the boil, I immediately
begin chilling, and keep going until the temperature differential
between the tap water and the wort is about 20 degrees F, or so. 
I use the hot water this generates for cleanup.  Then I attach
a pump, and recirculate ice water through the coils until the 
temperature is near freezing.  I then do the whirlpool thing,
and rack into a sanitized carboy, which I cap and leave overnight
to settle.  In the morning the wort is very clear and there is a
generous layer of previously-suspended trub on the carboy floor!
I rack into my fermentor (7-gallon acid carboy), and pitch.

In a sense, I was better off before the chiller, when I was doing
mainly partial-mashes.  Since I was boiling only a part of the total
volume, I could use ice directly in the wort to chill.  I usually
boiled the water first, but not always.  Never a problem, and some
of the best cold breaks I've ever had.

The concern seems to be sanitation.  While I can't go as far as
Father Barleywine (having tasted altogether too many contaminated
homebrews and microbrews, and since I culture Pediococcus damnosus
and Brettanomyces bruxellensis for use in making imitation lambics),
I have to say that I've never had a hint of infection using this
technique.  I live in a microbiologically relatively benign climate;
your mileage may vary.  The only problems I've ever had with it are
when I've sacrificed too much wort in the interest of keeping trub
absolutely out of the ferment.  There seems to be some interaction
between trub and yeast in the aerobic phase, and feeding the yeast
just a little of it seems to start the fermentation a bit faster.  I
can't quantify this; it's altogether an impression.  Also, a
trubless brew can end up "too clean", especially after the wild
originality of your first few batches.

I was surprised to hear Dr. Michael Lewis say that they'd researched
the effect of fermenting with varying degrees of trub in the brewing
lab at U. C. Davis, and had found it made much less difference than
they'd expected.  It made a rather large difference in my beer, I
can tell you!

= Martin A. Lodahl   			  Pacific*Bell Staff Analyst =
= malodah at pbmoss.Pacbell.COM       Sacramento, CA       916.972.4821 =
= If it's good for ancient Druids, runnin' nekkid through the wuids, =
= Drinkin' strange fermented fluids, it's good enough for me!  8-)   =


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Date: Mon, 10 Jun 91 15:35:22 PDT
From: Laura.Lawson at EBay.Sun.COM (Laura Lawson)
Subject: Re:  Homebrew Digest #655 (June 10, 1991)

Please remove laurel at moondancer from this alias.

Thank you

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Date:         Mon, 10 Jun 91 18:16:13 CDT
From: Darren Evans-Young <DARREN%UA1VM.UA.EDU at hplb.hpl.hp.com>
Subject:      Trub removal,cleaning copper,reusing yeast,cleaning counterflows


Trub removal:

When I first used leaf hops, I followed the suggestion from the HBD and
used a copper pot scrubber with a muslin (cheesecloth type) bag wrapped
around it and secured to my siphon tube.  I got all of my wort out and
left behind the trub which stuck to the leaf hops.  This worked so well
that for my next batch using hop pellets, I did the same thing.  I got
a very small amount of trub in my primary.  As the mass of shredded hops
moved toward the siphon pickup, it acted as a sort of filter.  I was
amazed how well this worked for pellets and it is now a part of my
brewing procedures.

Cleaning copper:

Whenever I use copper for the first time, whether tubing or a pot
scrubber, I always boil it with some vinegar.  This removes any
oxidation off the copper and leaves it shining bright...also sanitizes
it inside and out...Rinse well!

Cleaning counterflow chillers:

I simply run hot tap water through mine for about 5 mins after use.
Before my next usage, I again run hot tap water through it, then use
a weak bleach solution for 5-10 mins, then run hot tap water through
to rinse. Works well and I've never had a contamination problem.

Reusing yeast cake:

I thought I'd give this a try.  Boy does it work!  I had fermentation
going within 15 minutes of pouring in my new wort. By the next morning,
I had blown the top off the fermentation lock in a 7.5 gallon carboy
and foam was oozing everywhere!  Is this normal for reusing the yeast
cake in a primary?  I'd definitely NOT do this again without using a
blow-off tube.  Seems like this method of reusing yeast is overpitching
and causing the yeast to skip it's reproductive stage.  How will this
affect flavor?

Darren

*---------------------------------------------------------------------------*
| Darren Evans-Young, Sys Prg                  BITNET: DARREN at UA1VM.BITNET  |
| The University of Alabama                  Internet: DARREN at UA1VM.UA.EDU  |
| Seebeck Computer Center                       Phone: (205)348-3988 / 5380 |
| Tuscaloosa, Alabama  35487-0346                      (205)348-3993 FAX    |
*---------------------------------------------------------------------------*

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Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1991 20:07 EDT
From: GOOOOOOOOOOD MOOOOOOOOOOORNING ACS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <ACSWILEY%EKU.BITNET at CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Re: Homebrew Digest #649 (May 31, 1991)


Hep me!  In never got issue #654...would someone please send it my way..THANKS!!


Bill Wiley
acswiley at eku.bitnet



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Date: 	Mon, 10 Jun 1991 22:56:00 -0400
From: MIKE LIGAS <LIGAS at SSCvax.CIS.McMaster.CA>
Subject: RE:Info About Scotland Needed

In HD 645 Lars Nilsson posted a request for information on the Scottish
beer scene, demonstrating a keen grip on the importance of good planning
for a successful vacation. Well Lars, it's your lucky day. As it turns out
I have friend in St. Andrews who was willing to E-mail some information.
The following is a synopsis of his communication:

                              *PUBS*

i) Glasgow (Downtown)
                      :Horseshoe Bar (Drury Lane)
                      :Imperial Bar
                      :Bon Accord (Charing Cross)
                      :Zutz
                      :The Scotia Bar
                      :Blackfriars (jazz on Thur/Fri/Sun)
                      :Vale of Clyde (Queen St. station)
                      :Brahms & Lizst (near Odeon Cinema)
                      :Gordon's Bar

ii) Glasgow (West End)
                    es Bar (back of Kelvin Hall)
                      :The Halt Bar (Woodside Rd.)
                      :Usage Breethe (Woodside Rd.)
                      :Chumy Chengs (Gt. Western Rd.)

iii) Glasgow (Pollokshaws)
                      :Hergathy's Bar
                      :Titwood Bar
                      :Allison Arms

iv) Edinburgh
                      :Cafe Royale (behind Scottish records office)
                      :Hebrides Bar (near Waverly Station)
                      :Greyfriars Bobby
                      :various pubs on Rose St. and on the Grassmarket.

v) Stirling
                    :West End Bar
                      :Cairns
                      :Cross Keys
                      :Porters Bar
                      :Birds & Bees

Although Scottish beers are not in great abundance (in terms of variety) they
are available along with a plethora of British ales. Some of the brews you
can expect to come across are:

Tennent's Lager (Are you ready?),  McEwan's Lager, McEwan's Export,
Sunderland (Draught Bitter), Newcastle Brown Ale, (Take Up) Hemeling (Lite
Lager), Carling Blacklabel, Camenoris Strongarm (The Mightiest of Beers),
Federation Brewery Lager, M&B Brew XI (Have a pint of the Midlands),
Norseman Lager, Camenoris Best Bitter, Courage (Light Ale), Bank's (Traditional
Draught Beers), Courage Beer, Theakston Ales (150 Years of Tradition),
The Royal Silver Jubilee, Whitbread Shandy, Lion Lager, 70p, 80p,
Tartan Sp.

As far as homebrew shops are concerned, there ione on Main Street in Stirling
and there is one in St. Andrews. I couldn't get any information on breweries
that offer guided tours, but I'm sure a few well placed phone calls will get
you the help you need once you are in Scotland.

Good luck and happy drinking! I hope that this posting will be helpful to any
HD suscribers who may find themselves in Scotland some day...it certainly has
wet my appetite! Cheers.

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #656, 06/11/91
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