---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Re:  Bottle Anatomy (Richard Stueven)
  All grain brewing ? (Jim White)
  question about archives (GERMANI)
  Re:  Why not Strawberries? (John DeCarlo)
   (John DeCarlo)
  help a poor vaxman reach the archives, and anyone in CT? (GERMANI)
  Canadian Amateur Brewers Association (MIKE LIGAS)
  August Schnell (MC2331S)
  HBD vs. Usenet (Martin A. Lodahl)
  Punts (prj)
  Re:  Bottle Anatomy (Richard Stueven)
  mashing crystal/dextrine (Brian Bliss)
  dextrins and body (mcnally)
  Brewery Addresses In UK (Bob Antia)
  Re: Dextrin Malt and Mashing (larryba)
  punt (Carl Hensler)
  Re: Homebrew Digest #657 (June 12, 1991) (Greg Kushmerek)
  Zymurgy / Urquell / Richman (Norm Hardy)
  Re: Jackson's Beerhunter (David Taylor)


Send submissions to homebrew%hpfcmi at hplabs.hp.com
Send requests to homebrew-request%hpfcmi at hplabs.hp.com
[Please do not send me requests for back issues]
Archives are available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


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Date: Tue, 11 Jun 91 07:05:57 PDT
From: Richard.Stueven at Corp.Sun.COM (Richard Stueven)
Subject: Re:  Bottle Anatomy

In HBD #655, Barry Rein asks:
>Does anyone else know any interesting
>bottle nomenclature?

When a bottle is in the process of being opened, the small space
between the cap and the mouth of the bottle is called the "fsst".  This
term can also be used to describe the carbonation level of the beer, as
in:  "My last steam beer had a great fsst!"

have fun

gak

I guess there's some things          |      Seems like the more I think I know
I'm not meant to understand          |                 The more I find I don't
Ain't life a riot? Ain't love grand? | Every answer opens up so many questions
Richard Stueven                gak at Corp.Sun.COM                ...!attmail!gak

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Date:    Wed, 12 Jun 91 08:57:37 EDT
From: JWHITE at maine.maine.edu (Jim White)
Subject: All grain brewing ?

I've read much discussion, in this digest, regarding various chillers, mashing
tubs, temperature control ...... etc, related to all grain brewing.


I'd like to solicit some opinions about whether or not it's worth the (seeming)
effort involved.


 - Is the final brew, in general, superior to an extract brew? If so, why?
 - What kind of time commitment are we talking about to wort creation?
 - How much more water do we use? Do we have to condition the water?
 - How about $$ investment in equipment (minimum required) ?
 - Is the final per bottle cost less, or more?

I'm relatively new to the list, and I suspect this subject has been discussed
many times in the past, but I'd like to know, 'Why do you brew how you brew'?

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Date: Wed, 12 Jun 91 09:23 EST
From: GERMANI%NSLVAX at Venus.YCC.Yale.Edu
Subject: question about archives

Greetings,

Thanks,
	Joe

Bitnet: GERMANI at YALEVMS
Decnet: 44421::GERMANI


%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

What care I how time advances:
I am drinking ale today.			Poe

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

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Date: Wednesday, 12 Jun 1991 09:29:17 EDT
From: m14051 at mwvm.mitre.org (John DeCarlo)
Subject: Re:  Why not Strawberries?

>Date: Mon, 10 Jun 91 14:22:25 PDT
>From: Ron Ezetta <rone at loowit.wr.tek.com>

>Soon the local strawberry crop (Washington and Oregon) will be
>ready.  The thought of a pound, or so, of strawberries in a
>Rocky Raccoon Honey lager sounds delicious.

>However, I've noticed that *The Catus Meow* (an outstanding
>effort, btw), Papazian, nor HBD (from #577 to date) discuss
>strawberries as an ingredient in beer.  Why?  Any recipes or
>brewing suggestions?

Basically because strawberries don't have a very strong flavor.
I have used raspberries and blueberries.  While I normally
consider blueberries to have a strong flavor by themselves, they
didn't add all that much flavor to the beer in proportion.  The
raspberries did fine, though.  I would suspect you could put 8
lbs. of strawberries in and still not notice the taste when it
finished.  But what do *I* know?

John "BTW, when I printed the PostScript directly from my Unix
machine to the Apple LaserWriter, it came out 'Catus Meow'.  When
I transferred to the Mac and printed it out, it came out
properly.  Anyone else notice this?" DeCarlo

Internet: jdecarlo at mitre.org
           (or John.DeCarlo at f131.n109.z1.fidonet.org)
Fidonet:  1:109/131

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d, I
believe, but his book is pretty old as well.

What you mostly see in the U.S. is a reaction against the
old-fashioned type of recipe you still see on some kits.  You
know, "Empty the can in a bucket, throw in a bag of sugar, toss
in the yeast, fill with water, and enjoy delicious beer in a
week."  Yow!  This is not to say that you can't ever use sugar
(one of my best bitters was one I primed with brown sugar), but
that people like myself avoid it because it has a tradition of
overuse.  Plus, the German beer purity law, the Rheinheitsgebot,
has become sort of a way of knowing the beer is good for some.

>So, what I meant to ask was, how did you arrive at the all malt
>position?  What bad experiences have you had with cheap
>fermentables?  Or good ones?

Like yourself, many of us have gotten cidery tastes from too much
sugar.  Plus, all the old recipes called for it in large
quantities, and many people remember an "Uncle Ted" who made
homebrew and the bottles exploded and people got sick from
drinking it.  So maybe we overreact in avoiding sugar nowadays.

>John, I didn't say that I drink beer with no malt taste (unless
>someone else is buying!), as I said, once you've had a real,
>malty homebrew, there's nothing quite the same!

Plus, as you mention here, the all-malt taste can be quite
addictive.

Internet: jdecarlo at mitre.org
           (or John.DeCarlo at f131.n109.z1.fidonet.org)
Fidonet:  1:109/131

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Date: Wednesday, 12 Jun 1991 09:30:49 EDT
From: m14051 at mwvm.mitre.org (John DeCarlo)
Subject: 

>Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1991 20:07 EDT
>From: <ACSWILEY%EKU.BITNET at CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>Hep me!  In never got issue #654...would someone please send it
>my way..THANKS!!
>Bill Wiley

Time to mention an FAQ.

Send a message to the Homebrew Archive server at:

netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu

With, for example, a subject of :

send 654 from homebrew-new

And lo and behold, a copy of Issue 654 will be mailed to you, usually
within minutes.  This will work for all but the rare case where the
archive didn't get a copy either.

Internet: jdecarlo at mitre.org
           (or John.DeCarlo at f131.n109.z1.fidonet.org)
Fidonet:  1:109/131

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Date: Wed, 12 Jun 91 10:00 EST
From: GERMANI%NSLVAX at Venus.YCC.Yale.Edu
Subject: help a poor vaxman reach the archives, and anyone in CT?

Greetings,

I have been reading the digest for some time now and I've seen some
discussion about using the archives.  However, I still have not seen 
anything that I can understand.  I'm a Vaxman and I get this digest through 
bitnet.  If there is anyone out there who understands how to use the
archives from a Vax (I'm especially interested in getting the Cat's Meow) 
could you please send me a tutorial?  The only networks that I have direct 
access to are bitnet and decnet.  If interest is expressed, I'll post a 
summary of any info that I get.

By the way, is there anyone in the vicinity of New Haven, CT, out there?
Does anyone know of any homebrewing clubs or microbrewerys?  Here in New
Haven we have the New Haven Brewing Company that puts out some pretty good
beer--Elm City Ale and a nice stout called Blackwell Stout (I think).  
Brewpubs are still illegal in CT I believe, but the NHBC has been working
against that.
  
Thanks,
	Joe

P.S.  I think that I just sent a message with no text by mistake.  Sorry.

Bitnet: GERMANI at YALEVMS
Decnet: 44421::GERMANI


%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

What care I how time advances:
I am drinking ale today.			Poe

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

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Date: 	Wed, 12 Jun 1991 11:16:00 -0400
From: MIKE LIGAS <LIGAS at SSCvax.CIS.McMaster.CA>
Subject: Canadian Amateur Brewers Association


If anyone is interested in becoming a memeber of the Canadian Amateur Brewers
Association or would just like some information about this organization, E-mail
me directly and I will gladly send you a full description of the CABA as well
as subscription info. Let me know as well if you think I should make a posting
in HD describing (and promoting) the CABA.

Brewfully Yours,

Mike Ligas
ligas at sscvax.cis.mcmaster.ca

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Date: Wed, 12 Jun 91 09:41 CDT
From: MC2331S at ACAD.DRAKE.EDU
Subject: August Schnell

	Does anybody have information on tours and the like at the August
Schnell brewery in New Ulm MN?  Several of us are thinking about a road trip
up there sometime and it would be nice to knw this in advance.
	Mark W Castleman
	Big Dog Brewing Cooperative
	MC2331S at ACAD.DRAKE.EDU

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Date: Wed, 12 Jun 91 7:46:24 PDT
From: Martin A. Lodahl <pbmoss!malodah at PacBell.COM>
Subject: HBD vs. Usenet

In HOMEBREW Digest #657, Joe Kagenski asked:

> alt.brew is now showing up at our site, Does anyone know if this 
> group is new?

Yes, it's new, created this week by someone with more enthusiasm
than judgement, in my opinion, who apparently found the process of
creating a brewing newsgroup in the rec.* hierarchy exasperating.

> Also, has any consideration been given to combine/cross-feed this
> with the other?

Yes, much consideration has been given to it.  This comes up a
couple times a year, and the answer is always overwhelmingly the
same:  DON'T DO IT.  A part of the magic of HBD is its excellent
signal:noise ratio, its relative freedom from pointless personal
attacks and content-free postings, which are regular "features" of
Usenet, especially in the alt.* hierarchy.  HBD works because of a
(usually) tacet agreement by its members to maintain its excellence.
The alt.* hierarchy, on the other hand, prides itself on
irresponsibility, and serves a reader community with very different
tastes.  Creating a crossfeed between the two would, in my opinion,
be worse than pointless.  

= Martin A. Lodahl   			  Pacific*Bell Staff Analyst =
= malodah at pbmoss.Pacbell.COM       Sacramento, CA       916.972.4821 =
= If it's good for ancient Druids, runnin' nekkid through the wuids, =
= Drinkin' strange fermented fluids, it's good enough for me!  8-)   =


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Date: Wed, 12 Jun 91 11:44:14 EDT
From: prj at gamba.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Punts

Another explanation for the "punt" at the bottom of wine bottles
is that it makes production of hand blown bottles faster and cheaper;
obviously a desideratum for bottle producers.  The reason is that the
depression provides a greater ability to withstand the stresses that build
as the glass cools after the bottle is blown and knocked off.  This allows
the blower to anneal the bottle simply buy burying in sand (for instance)
instead of having to process it through an annealing oven of some kind.

The added ability to withstand the compression load from champagne is
an additional explanation for why most champagne bottles still have a punt.

- ---Paul Johnson (amateur glassblower)





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Date: Wed, 12 Jun 91 08:57:05 PDT
From: Richard.Stueven at Corp.Sun.COM (Richard Stueven)
Subject: Re:  Bottle Anatomy

In HBD #655, Barry Rein asks:
>Does anyone else know any interesting
>bottle nomenclature?

When a bottle is in the process of being opened, the small space
between the cap and the mouth of the bottle is called the "fsst".  This
term can also be used to describe the carbonation level of the beer, as
in:  "My last steam beer had a great fsst!"

have fun

gak

I guess there's some things          |      Seems like the more I think I know
I'm not meant to understand          |                 The more I find I don't
Ain't life a riot? Ain't love grand? | Every answer opens up so many questions
Richard Stueven                gak at Corp.Sun.COM                ...!attmail!gak

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Date: Wed, 12 Jun 91 11:01:41 CDT
From: bliss at csrd.uiuc.edu (Brian Bliss)
Subject: mashing crystal/dextrine


> reason, there should be no problem with mashing crystal or dextrin malts
> because the body and head retention enhancing effects should result from
> limit dextrins which remain even after an extended starch conversion
> rest.

I haven't noticed any loss of sweetness when I mash crystal malt
(but then again, I use more when I mash than when I don't), but
have noticed significantly poorer head retention when I mash.
This is only from my limited experience; I offer no explanation.

Now a question: what is the best original S.G. for a yeast starter bottle?
Does it matter?  I just made a starter for Wyeast english ale this
morning, and the wort couldn't have been denser than 1.010.

bb


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Date: Wed, 12 Jun 91 09:02:24 -0700
From: mcnally at Pa.dec.com
Subject: dextrins and body


This is a side issue to the question of how to deal with crystal and
cara-pils malts.  I see over and over again the claim that dextrins
add body to beer.  This is flatly denied by Miller, who sites de Klerk
as his authoritative source.  What's the real scoop?

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike McNally                                           mcnally at wsl.dec.com
Digital Equipment Corporation
Western Software Lab

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Date: Wed, 12 Jun 91 12:13:35 EDT
From: antia at cthulhu.control.com (Bob Antia)
Subject: Brewery Addresses In UK


I have siting next to my machine a copy of CAMRA's 'Good Beer Guide' a
must for any travel in the UK. In it is a list of all the UK brewers and
their addresses. If anyone needs an adddress I would be happy to send it.
In the UK the book can be purchased in any (nearly) bookshop such as
Sweetens or WH Smith.

Cheers

Bob Antia
Antia at control.com
ASSEMBLY at applelink.apple.com

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Date: Wed Jun 12 10:08:13 1991
From: microsoft!larryba at cs.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Dextrin Malt and Mashing

Y'all should re-read Miller again on this subject.  Per Miller, ref DeCleric,
Dextrins have little/no effect on body, mouth feel and head - these are all
due to medium weight protein molecules.  So, regardless of limit dextrins and
how you add your carmel malt, etc.  It is the proteins, not the sugar, that
determines body. Appearently Cara-Pils is malted and kilned to produce a
large amount of the appropriate proteins (read high degree of modification -
same as Carmel and English Pale/Mild Ale)

Therefore, if you put in a bunch of Cara-Pils and then have a long protein
rest (low Ph helps) you will overcleave the proteins and screw up the head
and body of the beer anyway. The protein rests and all those steps are
intended to get the appropriate ratio of low weight molecules, for yeast
nutrients, and medium weight for body and head retention.

Sometimes I mash at high temperatures simply to get a high TG and low alcohol
content while still retaining that All Malt Character that I enjoy so much.
Since I always do Single Infusion Mash (even for lagers), I rely upon the
skill of my maltster (whoever that is) to modify the grain and kiln properly
for reasonable head/body.

Read, Read and Read some more: that is what improved my beers the most!



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Date: Wed, 12 Jun 91 12:47:59 -0700
From: carl at ism.isc.com (Carl Hensler)
Subject: punt

The concave bottom of the champagne bottle, the punt, is that
shape to prevent the development of a bending moment in the glass
under pressure.  If the end is the correct shape, the material is
only in tension or compression, with no significant bending.
Cylindrical pressure vessels always have concave or convex ends
for this reason.  It is intuitively obvious why the champagne
bottle does not have a convex end.

Carl Hensler

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Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1991 14:01 EDT
From: Greg Kushmerek <GKUSHMER at RUBY.TUFTS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Homebrew Digest #657 (June 12, 1991)

I think that I made this entry once before but it went into #646 (or whatever
it was that it seems nobody received)

Concerning British Breweries:  My experience has been that you do need to
call ahead.  Every place that I've visited has needed an appointment.

My favorite trip was a visitto the Theakston Brewery in Masham, Yorkshire.
In my opinion, it has the smoothest XB in the UK.  The Brewery doesn't offer
tours every day of the week, but the tour they give is educational as well
as historically interesting.

At the end you get a free bottle of OP - they don't currently have a 
Hospitality House.  I think they were in process of doing something on that.

If you do go, take the time to visit all three local pubs that carry the 
brew.  I had a hell of a time tasting the XB and making the rounds.  It's 
a short stint from York proper and very much in the Yorkshire countryside.
The trip back to Lancashire that day provided some of the most breathtaking
scenery my frazzled memory contains.

- --gk



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Date: Wed, 12 Jun 91 19:41:14 PDT
From: polstra!norm at uunet.UU.NET (Norm Hardy)
Subject: Zymurgy / Urquell / Richman

The latest zymurgy magazine came today and I was very impressed by the
article of the Pilsner Urquell brewery done by Darryl Richman, who is
probably reading this now.  He toured the brewery and gave wonderful
detail about the brewery, the process, and the result.

For those who want to duplicate Urquell (good luck, but who doesn't?), the
description of the triple decoction was worth the price of the subscription.

I do have a question however:  at what temperature is the wort when the
yeast (one of three interestingly enough) is pitched?  The article did 
mention 41f as the fermentation but didn't state the pitching temp.

Norm Hardy


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Date: Thu, 13 Jun 91 14:23 EST
From: David Taylor <DAVID at phillip.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Jackson's Beerhunter

Gooday homebrewers!

Happily for those of us in Australia, our Special Broadcasting Service
has started to show Michael Jackson's 'Beerhunter' series. The first
episode featured the beers of Belgium.  It was great, presenting a
fascinating account of the tradition and culture of beer in Belgium.

A few interesting points:-

No-one has ever pronounced LOM-BEEK to me before, I always thought it was
Lam-bic (as spelled).

Jackson commented that paintings by the old Flemish masters show beverages
being poured from jugs. It has been assumed that this was wine, however,
he asserts that the peoples' drink has always been beer, and this is what
is being poured.

Scenes around the Lindemanns Brewery were shown, including the uncovered
fermentation vessels surrounded by cobwebs and the open windows to allow
entry of the wild yeasts. I wouldn't try that at home!

Hops used are aged for three years to reduce their aromatic contribution,
and the wort is boiled for *FIVE* hours in a coal fired kettle - it must
take great skill to regulate the heat.

A brewer is shown adding cherries to a barrel to provoke a secondary
fermentation to produce Kreik. They were straight out of a box. I hope
he followed them with a handful of Camden tablets!

Many beers were shown and I recognised a lot of the names - I've tasted
only a few of them - how does a bloke get a job as a 'Beerhunter'?

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Date: Wed, 12 Jun 91 22:39:23 MST
From: teroach!fse at phx.mcd.mot.com


I have a couple things that have been a problem now that I'm "kegging" my
beer...
I've set up a Cornelius tank tapping system, two taps, no waiting.  The
following problems have arisen:

1. I've tapped two tanks now, a dark amber and a variation to the Rocky
Racoon honey recipe, both were relatively flat!  In analyzing what could
have gone wrong, I suspect that there was too much B-brite left on the
interior of the tanks when I racked into them and primed.  The residual
chemical could have zapped my yeast, right?  I've been told I should rinse
with clear water after using B-brite to sanitize, is that true?  The other
possibility is the tanks leaked at the seals in the poppets or the main lid
gasket.  I used Papazians suggestion of purging the air and pressurizing to
5 lbs. with CO2, then I checked for leaks and had none (at that time). Is
there a recommended way to guarantee a good seal on these things?
 
2. After these two tanks came up flat, I artificially carbonated them. I
was having company over in a couple days specifically to taste some home
brew and didn't want to try re-pitching at room temp. again and letting it sit
for a couple more weeks.  So I ran the CO2 up to 35+ lbs for 2 days and then 
brought it back down.  The beer is somewhat carbonated now, but DAMN do I get
foam city when I draw a glass from the tap!  Is this inherent in the Cornelius
system when tapping beer?  Since the beer has to travel up that thin tube
from the bottom of the tank and then go through some turbulence to get
through the quick-disconnects at the poppets?  I wonder if I get the
conditioning problem solved will I have this extreme amount of head?  The
beer is definately not over-carbonated once I get enough collected in my
glass, but I have about 75% foam in my glass trying to draw one.  Does
artificially carbonating beer add to this foam problem?
FYI - I'm running 3/16" tubing from the quick-disconnect fitting (Pepsi
style tanks) up to the faucet (through wall mount) all of about 1 foot in
length.  I'm running 5/16" tubing from the CO2 tank outside the fridge
about 4 feet to the tanks.  

This is my first submission to the digest, I hope I didn't over do it.
Thanks for any replies.

Stan

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #658, 06/13/91
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