---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Notes on HD730 (MIKE LIGAS)
  Notes on HD731 (MIKE LIGAS)
  plastic (Jack Schmidling)
  hop extraction efficiency curve (Nik Subotic)
  Brewpubs etc in Bermuda? (Greg_Habel)
  follow ups (Bob Hettmansperger)
  follow ups
  Beer Ads (Norm Pyle)
  Re: Banana Beer?!? (dbell)
  The Wine Cellar of Silene. ("DRCV06::GRAHAM")
  attenuation, recipe request (krweiss)
  Oktoberfest in Kitchener-Waterloo Ontario Canada (Greg_Habel)
  Re: High Gravity Wheat beer... (larryba)
  Maturing Beer (Peter Glen Berger)
  Malt Extract Sources (Peter Glen Berger)
  Re: Lager Questions (larryba)
  Re: Attenuation/ Wyeast ALT (MIKE LIGAS)
  Beer Related Trivia (Jeff Mizener  at  Siemens Energy)
  attenuation, spelt, bananas  (Carl West)
  it just goes to show you... (florianb)
  Torrefied Wheat, Say What? (John Hartman)
  Archives / FTP Questions (freidin)
  TCJOHB ed. 2 (Bryan Gros)
  Hops Substitutions (Doug Latornell)
  Oven sanitizing bottles (Tom Hamilton)
  maibock, checkvalves, grain, and washers (Bill Crick)
  New Complete Joy of Home Brewing (homer)


Send submissions to homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
Send requests to homebrew-request@ hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
[Please do not send me requests for back issues!]
Archives are available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 	Wed, 25 Sep 1991 23:16:00 -0400
From: MIKE LIGAS <LIGAS at SSCvax.CIS.McMaster.CA>
Subject: Notes on HD730

                             NOTES ON HD730

D_KRUS at UNHH.UNH.EDU (Daniel L. Krus) writes:
>I'm starting to work up a mead recipe.  I figure if I start now it might be
>ready for consumption by late next summer.  I was wondering if there are any
>suggestions on a good yeast.  Since with my beers I no longer use dry yeasts,
>I was hoping on some suggestions for liquid yeasts.  I don't want a still
>mead and I'm using about 7.5 lbs. of clover honey.
>Any suggestions?

Finding liquid cultures of quality wine yeasts has not been that easy for me
(any good leads HD readers?). I have managed to obtain some strains from a
local small winery and I maintain them on agar plates. I have also acquired a
variety of strains in dried form and isolated/purified them on agar plates as
well. Wyeast supplies the Pasteur strain in liquid form which is a good
general purpose wine/mead making yeast. Looking through my recipe notes I see
that I have used S. bayanus (Lalvin) for a fruit mead that was my all time
favorite and a strain called UCD594 for a pyment/metheglen which was also a
fine aphrodisiac. Lalvin yeasts are easy to find and come in dried form. The
UCD594 strain was obtained from the above mentioned winery and may be more
difficult to track down. "The Beverage People News", Summer/Fall 1991, published
by Great Fermentations of Santa Rosa, contains a mead recipe which calls for
the use of Prise de Mousse wine yeast.

"Cole Steven Franklin Jr." <eapu081 at orion.oac.uci.edu> writes:
>I was wondering if anyone knew what causes the weird "happy hyper" buzz that
>my friends and I get from drinking homebrew.  I know it's not entirely due to
>alchol because the effects are different and nearly instaneous.
>I read that by using a blow out tube at the begining of fermentation you will
>get rid of something that is known to cause "beer headaches" is this the same
>little something that causes the homebrew buzz.

The "happy hyper" buzz is a poorly understood phenomenon but it has been
suggested that it is a result of generous hopping, undoubtedly something which
is lacking in beers made by the big breweries. It is something which I'd be
interested in learning more about biochemically since I have the physiological
experience down pat. ;-)  Blow out tubes and surface skimming are both ways of
removing fusel alcohols from the foaming krausen of an actively fermenting
wort. Fusel alcohols taste solventlike and bitter and can be oxidized later on
and thereby contribute to off-flavours in the final product. Most professionals
don't bother with removing the krausen and I personally have found that it made
no detectable difference in my final beer or my "happy hyper" buzz.

rfozard at slipknot.pyramid.com (Bob Fozard) writes about lager brewing:
>1)  Yeast starter.  To avoid shocking the yeast, I would think that
>    the yeast starter should be generated and kept at about the
>    same temperature as you intend on pitching, in this case, about
>    50F.  This would probably mean that you have to plan the brew
>    3 or 4 days ahead, as the starter would likely be slow to start.
>    I didn't. I had the starter going at room temp., and pitched at
>    50F.  Lag time was about 25-30 hours.
>    How do _you_ do it?

I grow my starter culture at room temperature and pitch the yeast into the wort
at 17-19C (62-67F) and immediately place the five gallon vessel into a 10C(50F)
environment. The beer slowly cools and is at 10C by the time the lag phase ends
which is typically 20-24 hours.

oopwk%msu.dnet at terra.oscs.montana.edu (Warren R. Kiefer) writes:
>.... after dumping the slurry from the porter batch into this
>surprisingly great smelling mess around 6:00pm that night, I went onto other
>things and checked the batch around 11:00am the next day. There was only about
>1 bubble every 30 seconds out of the airlock. The next time I checked was
>somewhere around 6:00pm that night and the airlock wasn't gurgling at all.

Sounds like a job for The Hydrometer.

>I have heard that honey is notoriously slow to ferment, so I was kind of
>shocked to say the least.

Straight meads are slow fermenting due to low levels of essential nutrients. I
doubt that is the case with your beer since a little malt extract can go a long
way in nourishing yeast. Your problem may be due to insufficient oxygen in the
wort at the time of pitching.

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Date: 	Wed, 25 Sep 1991 23:18:00 -0400
From: MIKE LIGAS <LIGAS at SSCvax.CIS.McMaster.CA>
Subject: Notes on HD731

                             NOTES ON HD731


CHOLM at HUBIO2.HARVARD.EDU (HOLM LAB, HARVARD UNIVERSITY) writes:
>        Has anyone done any cider fermentation?  I've done the standard thing
>of taking a gallon of preservative free cider and allowing it to ferment, but
>that's sort of dicey since all sorts of things are in there.  I was planning
>on doing a 5 gallon batch this year, boiling the cider first and then pitching
>a good beer yeast, doing a proper primary and secondary fermentation, and then
>priming and bottling.  Anyone else tried anything similar? Thanks.

Here my recipe for Fall Cider:

                22 litres (6 US gal) fresh apple cider (no preservatives)
                3 tsp. acid blend
                1 tsp. yeast nutrient
                2.5 tsp. pectic enzyme
                1 cup Dextrose
                1.25 tsp. sulfite crystals (potassium metabisulphite)
                2 sachets dried yeast (Edme)

                OG=1.055 (60F correction)

Mix all ingredients except the yeast into the primary, cover and let stand for
24 hours to dissipate SO2 from sulfite. Hydrate yeast in approx. 250 ml (1 cup)
water at 35-40C (95-104F) for 5-10 minutes and then pitch into cider with
vigorous stirring to aerate. Primary = 5 days. Secondary = 3 weeks. Prime and
bottle as usual. This stuff is peaking after 3 months in the bottle, IMHO.

GERMANI%NSLVAX at Venus.YCC.Yale.Edu writes:
>        As long as there's been talk of spices in beer I have a few questions.
>Has anyone out there ever used juniper berries in beer?  I've seen a lot of
>juniper trees around here with lots of wonderfully fragrant berries on them.
>Could I just pick some in the wild and put then in at the end of the boil?
>How much should I use?  Any idea when the berries should be picked?
>        Also, I tasted a spruce beer recently and it was great.  I think that
>it was made with spruce essence.  I heard that it could be made with new growth
>of a spruce tree.  Has anyone tried this?  Again, is it just tossed in toward
>the end of the boil?  Will any old spruce tree do?

I've got some dried Juniper berries tucked away in my brewing closet so I'm
dying to hear responses on that subject too!

As far as Spruce beer is concerned I have brewed a batch using fresh, new
spring growth sprigs picked off the ends of the tree branches. The recipe for
The Legendary Mike Brown's Spruce Ale is as follows:

                1.5 kg (3.3 lbs) Steel City Ale Kit
                1.0 kg (2.2 lbs) John Bull plain light malt extract
                500 g (1.1 lbs) plain light dried malt extract
                165 g (1/3 lb) crushed chocolate malt
                125 g (1/4 lb) crushed crystal malt
                180 g (approx. 6 oz) fresh spring spruce sprigs (boil)
                8 spruce sprigs (finishing)
                500 ml (2 cup) culture of Munton & Fison Ale yeast

                OG = 1.046 (60F correction) for 22 litres (6 US gal)

Crystal and chocolate malts placed in 4 litres (1 gal) cold water and temp.
raised to 70 C and immediately strained into the brew kettle and sparged with
2 cups of 70C water. Added malt extracts and water to bring volume to 23
lites. Added boiling sprigs when boil commenced and boiled for 60 minutes.
Added finishing sprigs and boiled for 3 minutes. Chilled via wort chiller.
Yeast pitched at 20C (68F). Single stage fermented in glass for 14 days then
bottled using 1 cup corn sugar to prime.

I didn't like this beer at first because I felt that a spruce essence was
lacking in the flavour. However, two months in the bottle cured that problem
and the beer was exquisite and "sprucey" and improved with further aging. My
friends are always enquiring as to when my next batch will be brewed.

Jeanne Sova (ASQNC-TABSM 5320) <jsova at APG-EMH5.APG.ARMY.MIL> writes:
>In response to Ken Weiss' response to Norm Hardy,  sorry guy, but I'm
>VERY tired of seeing "skinny ladies with big busts and come-on faces with
>a lot of skin."  Beer commercials have always been very sexist, and
>one sidedly so (if that's a word).  Not very appealing to us females,
>although the idea of good food, good company and good sex is.

Right on!

>And in response to Su Misra's comment:
>>"Yeah, like any of those babes in the Miller commercials would
>>actually be caught dead drinking beer...Seltzer water is more their
>>thing, methinks"
>I don't know what kind of babes you find, but I can tell you my babe
>friends and I would much prefer an ice cold brew over Seltzer water, in
>a heart beat.

Hey! This digest could use those types of babes!

florianb at chip.cna.tek.com writes:
>Oh, and by the way, if a contest is ever held to award the skinniest
>homebrewer, I will win it hands down.

Maybe not...I'm so skinny that I disappear when I turn sideways.

"Anton E. Skaugset" <skaugset at aries.scs.uiuc.edu> writes:
>I am planning on brewing an India Pale Ale, and I want to try dry-hopping
>in the secondary.  There has been lots of discussion lately about hops and
>dry-hopping technique, and this may be a stupid question, but if you plan
>on dry hopping, should you use any finishing hops?
>...
>Dry hopping supposedly gives you a much more pronounced aromatic hop
>character, why should I "waste" hops by tossing them into the boil to get
>aromatics?  I'm not referring to bittering hops, which I plan on using as
>usual.

Actually, hops can influence a beer at three levels. Bitterness, hop flavour and
hop aroma. Hop flavour and aroma are lost when the delicate compounds
responsible for these traits are driven off during a prolonged boil. I never
seem to get sufficient hop aroma but I get plenty of hop flavour when I add a
generous dose of hops at the end of the boil. Dry hopping seems to bring out
the most in aromatics, in my hands anyways. The beta acids and the poorly
characterized "soft resins" are varied in chemical structure and it is likely
that some forms of these molecules are made more soluble in the wort by a brief
exposure to heat while others are more volatile and are best assimilated via
dry hopping. "The Principles of Brewing Chemistry" by George Fix has a nice
chapter on hop chemistry, a field which is no doubt in need of further study.


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 25 Sep 91 20:55 CDT
From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: plastic

 
 
 To: Homebrew Digest
 Fm: Jack Schmidling
 
 Subj:  Plastic Bottles, bactericidal?
 
 
 Remember that batch of beer in "BREW IT AT HOME" with the 
 syphon sloshing beer into the primary and the nice billowy 
 foam?
 
 Well, the jury may still be out on the oxidation issue but 
 the beer is definately vile.  This batch was used and abused 
 to demonstrate many different processes and sterilization 
 was not high on the list during the shoots.  The bottles, 
 however were carefully sterilized under the assumption that 
 if I am going to invest the aging time, they might as well 
 do it in sterile bottles.
 
 After sampling several bottles, that all tasted moldy I 
 noticed a bacterial film on the surface of the beer in the 
 bottles.
 
 In addition to glass bottles, I bottled the beer in 4 
 plastic pop bottles.  Two pint and two liter bottles.
 They were all processed, cleaned and sterilized in the same 
 manner and at the same time.
 
 All the glass bottles are contaminated and vile and all of 
 the plastic bottles have no bacterial film and taste normal.
 
 Ready for another momily?
 
 TOOT!  TOOT!
 
 In addition to being soluble in beer,
 
                PLASTIC BOTTLES ARE BACTERICIDAL!
 
 I didn't really say that, MOM did.  I was just thinking out 
 loud.
 
 jack
 
ZZ

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Date: Thu, 26 Sep 91 09:23:33 EDT
From: subotic at erim.org (Nik Subotic)
Subject: hop extraction efficiency curve



Hi all,

A while ago (1 yr.?) someone posted a curve to calculate hop
extraction efficiency as a function of boiling time.  I seem to
remember that the curve was linear for boils up to 60 min.  What
happens after that amount of time is a mystery (how quickly the
efficiency approaches 100%).  This curve would be helpful in
calculating the amount of bittering in a beer.  Could someone point me
to the appropriate digest (or email or repost for that matter) where
this appeared?

Thanks much for your help.

- --
Nikola S. Subotic
Signal and Image Processing Dept.
Optical and IR Science Laboratory
Environmental Research Institute of Michigan 
P.O. Box 134001                              
Ann Arbor, MI 48113-4001                     
(313)-994-1200 x-2711                        
subotic at erim.org                     
- --

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 26 Sep 91 08:55:14 edt
From: Greg_Habel at DGC.MCEO.DG.COM
Subject: Brewpubs etc in Bermuda?

A fellow homebrewer is traveling to Bremuda on the 15th of October 
and would like to know if there are any brewpubs or micros on the 
Island.   




Return to table of contents


Date: 26 Sep 91 10:45:14
From: Bob Hettmansperger <Bob_Hettmansperger at klondike.bellcore.com>
Subject: follow ups

Time:     10:28 AM           Date:    9/26/91

Subject:  follow ups

Thanks to all for the quick responses.  I have some follow up questions...

In HBD #731, GC Woods <gcw at garage.att.com> writes:

>              Ed is on the Zymurgy board of advisors and is also involved
>with getting homebrewing legalized in NJ.

Whoah.  I thought homebrewing was legal in all states (that's what most of the
literature seems to say).


In HBD #731, Jeff Frane <70670.2067 at compuserve.com> writes:

>The school in question, is the Siebel Institute, which seems to specialize in
>training people already in the brewing business for advancement in their
trade.
>Other than the brewing program at UC Davis, I believe this is the only
brewing
>school in the US. 

Does anyone have more info on the UC Davis program (what college, type of 
degree, entrance rqmts, out-of-state tuition, etc)?

Thanks again,

Bob Hettmansperger



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Date: Thu, 26 Sep 91 08:30:20 MDT
From: pyle at intellistor.com (Norm Pyle)
Subject: Beer Ads

Michael Zentner writes:

>What about the commercial with a whole group of people playing
>volleyball on the beach?  Both men and women in bathing suits?  Is is
>mutually offensive or non-offensive?

This is totally non-offensive to me because this is real life.  If you've
ever gone to a volleyball beach (try Manhattan Beach, or Hermosa Beach)
you'll see both sexes playing volleyball in their swimsuits.  This is not
only true for amateurs but also with the pros, so don't knock it, enjoy it.

Of course, I don't know anyone who can actually drink beer *and* play
volleyball.  I like my volleyball and my beer drinking as pretty much
mutually exclusive activities.

Now back to homebrewing:  I too, am waiting for some good holiday recipes
that have actually been tried before.  Although I haven't seen anything on
the digest yet, a friend tells me he's got a apricot-ginger ale recipe that
got rave reviews last year.  If he gives it to me, I'll pass it on.

Norm
pyle at intellistor.com

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Date: Thu, 26 Sep 91 08:10:13 PDT
From: dbell at cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Banana Beer?!?

Marty Albini <martya at sdd.hp.com> Wrote about banana beer:

>	Glorious Leader: So this is your banana beer?
>	Perpetrator: Yep.
>	GL: So what was your procedure?
>	P: I made up a medium bodied ale, and threw the
>     	bananas into the boil.
>	GL: Whole bananas?
>	P: Peels and all.

Whaddya know; in the 60's we smoked 'em; in the 90's we brew 'em!
(the peels, for the younguns hereabouts...)

"The more things change, the more they stay the same..."
Dave

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Date: 26 Sep 91 08:25:00 EDT
From: "DRCV06::GRAHAM" <graham%drcv06.decnet at drcvax.af.mil>
Subject: The Wine Cellar of Silene.

For those in the general Boston area, or within almost any part of Eastern 
Mass., there is a shop that delivers that carries a lot of very interesting 
beers.  The Wine Cellar of Silene, 716 624-9300 has other locations, too, 
and carries Trappists, Lambics, Old Peculier (spelling?), Sierra Nevada 
Pale Ale and Porter and many other hard to find beers.  They also have a 
superb wine selection.  If you order $75 worth, there is no delivery 
charge.  (That's nor hard when you're getting Chimay and other expensive 
brews.)

Just thought some of you might like to know...

Dan Graham
President:  Americans for the advamcement of Adiposity
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind."



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Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1991 09:00:19 -0800
From: krweiss at ucdavis.edu
Subject: attenuation, recipe request

Ted Samuel asks:

>  Pardon my (seeming) ignorance, but what exactly is attenuation re:
>yeast?

I should probably leave this for one of the more experienced and
knowledgeable brewers, but what the heck... Attenuation refers to the
amount of residual sugar a yeast will leave when fermentation is complete.
More attenuative yeasts will convert more of the sugar to alcohol and CO2,
resulting in a drier beer with a lower final specific gravity. Less
attenuative yeasts will leave more sugar unconverted, resulting in a
sweeter beer. Edme dry yeast might be the ultimate example of an
attenuative yeast (at least the batches I used). Wyeast Irish Ale is a
fairly non-attenuative yeast.

Now for the recipe request. I'd like to produce a Thanksgiving festival of
gluttony beer. I'm looking for an extract/adjunct based recipe that won't
take more than four weeks in the bottle to age into a drinkable form. The
timeline probably rules out anything involving fruit flavorings, as it
seems fruity beers need to age for longer periods before they get
drinkable. Suggestions, please...

Ken Weiss               krweiss at ucdavis.edu
Computing Services      916/752-5554
U.C. Davis
Davis, CA 95616


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Date: Thu, 26 Sep 91 11:30:28 edt
From: Greg_Habel at DGC.MCEO.DG.COM
Subject: Oktoberfest in Kitchener-Waterloo Ontario Canada

Hello fellow Canadians!  After many years of anticipation I will 
finally be attending the Oktoberfest Festival in Kitchener-Waterloo 
Ontario. From what I hear, its quite the event (the largest Bavarian 
festival in North America)!  We have reservations at the Schwaben 
Club for October 12th, a Saturday.  Plans are to be in the area until 
that Tuesday.  Are there any "must see, must do" items I should be 
aware of?  Also, who supplies the beer? Molson?  I can't wait!
                                 Greg




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Date: Thu Sep 26 09:41:48 1991
From: larryba at microsoft.com
Subject: Re: High Gravity Wheat beer...

I sent this out last week, but it never made it into the HBD... So here is a
repeat.

In HBD #728 Bryan Gros wonders if his partial mash wheat beer gravity of
1.058 is unusual...  Well, do the math, with the numbers suggested by Miller:

    Wheat Malt    2lb  at  .038/lb/gal
    Barley Malt   1lb  at  .035
    Wheat extract 3lb  at  .040    - I assume you used syrup?
    Malt Extract  1lb  at  .040
                        ----
                        .271

    Divide by 5 gal = .054 or 1.054 original gravity.

If you used dry extracts, bump the yeild to .044 to get an OG of 1.057

I suspect that if your OG is 1.058 and you used syrups, then you probably
have something less than 5 gallons in your fermenter.  It would take only
three pints to bump the OG from 1.054 to 1.058.


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Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1991 12:52:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: Peter Glen Berger <pb1p+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Maturing Beer

Just what is the benefit gained by maturing beer in the bottle?

I just bottled my Stout (I'll post the recipe when I'm satisfied 
that it's good, thanks to all who helped), and have noticed two 
things:  the hop flavor is much more assertive than I expected,
as is the bitterness.  I used fresh hops, and strained them out
when adding the wort to the fermenter.  Will these flavors mellow
with age?  I think we could all benefit from a discussion of just
what aging does to flavor, body, aroma, etc.

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pete Berger		       ||  ARPA:     peterb at cs.cmu.edu
Professional Student	       ||            Pete.Berger at andrew.cmu.edu
Univ. Pittsburgh School of Law ||  BITNET:   R746PB1P at CMCCVB
Attend this school, not CMU    ||  UUCP: ...!harvard!andrew.cmu.edu!pb1p
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Goldilocks is about property rights.  Little Red Riding Hood is a tale
 of seduction, rape, murder, and cannibalism."  -Bernard J. Hibbits
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------



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Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1991 12:56:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: Peter Glen Berger <pb1p+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Malt Extract Sources

Okay, I'm not a grain-brewer yet, because I don't have the time.  But
I hate using "kits" and liquid malt extract;  maybe I'm paranoid, but
I don't think it's possible to can ANYTHING without causing some
pretty severe chemical changes; and, at least, my nose seems to
confirm this.

So I pretty much have decided to use dry malt extracts until I can
advance to mashing.  Does anyone know of any cheap sources for dry
malt extract?  The place near me, in Pittsburgh, sells dark malt
extract at $8.50 for 3 pounds, and around $3 for 1 pound.  This place
is expensive on most items, so I assume they're expensive in this
regard, too.

And how about a comparison of yeasts?  What characters do they impart?
So far I've had dissapointing results with red star, and impressive
results with Whitbread (although, to be fair, this could be due to
differences in the wort and in ambient temperature).

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pete Berger		       ||  ARPA:     peterb at cs.cmu.edu
Professional Student	       ||            Pete.Berger at andrew.cmu.edu
Univ. Pittsburgh School of Law ||  BITNET:   R746PB1P at CMCCVB
Attend this school, not CMU    ||  UUCP: ...!harvard!andrew.cmu.edu!pb1p
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Goldilocks is about property rights.  Little Red Riding Hood is a tale
 of seduction, rape, murder, and cannibalism."  -Bernard J. Hibbits
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------



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Date: Thu Sep 26 09:52:44 1991
From: larryba at microsoft.com
Subject: Re: Lager Questions

In HBD #730 Bob Fozard asks some great questions.  His first question was
regarding starter yeast and planning a head so that he could pitch active
yeast at ferment temperatures.  A little digression follows regarding the
need to pitch "actively fermenting" yeast:

I have been corresponding with Dave Rose (professional yeast propogator)
regarding yeast culturing.  He questions the need to pitch starter
yeast that is activly fermenting.  As far as he knows pitching dorment
yeast (e.g. the scum from the bottom of your primary/secondary after things
have really settled out) should work fine.

I have several personal experiences that support his claim:

1. I made a vienna lager using wyeast bavarian lager yeast.  It sat
   in the secondary for two months.  For at least one month it had
   no bubbles in the air lock.  I collected the grey/tan gloopy yeast
   from the bottom and stored it in a pint ball jar for another week.
   Recently I pitched that gloop into a pint of starter to "feed" it.
   It practially expoded into activity blowing a fair amount of foam
   through the airlock and was completely fermented out in less than
   24 hours.  This was all at 48f.  Seems like it was plenty lively.
   I wish, now, that I had waited another week and simply pitched the
   stuff into my next lager.

2. I made an xmas ale using the father barleywine method of repitching
   yeast: chill the wort directly onto the previous yeast cake.  It too
   exploded into fermentation and was mostly fermented out in 36 hours.
   Again, the cake was "dormant" as the previous batch stopped producing
   bubbles for several days (whitbread yeast  at  72f)

3. I routinely collect yeast goop from the primary (swirling a little
   beer left behind when racking - trying to avoid the trub that is usually
   under the yeast) store it in the fridge w/o an airlock and pitch within
   1-3 weeks and get great ferment starts (e.g. < 12 hours to high krausen)

My call is to do the starter, but don't worry about pitching at high
krausen: just let it do it's thing and brew whenever you have the time (within
a couple weeks).  when pitching, pour off most of the spent wort, swirl up
the yeasties and pitch away.

Due to equipment limitations I pitch my lager yeasts at 70f and then stick
the primary in my refer to chill down to 48f.  That seems to work fine.
I have never worried about shocking yeast with moderate temperature
differentials (48->70f) - of course, I might be damaging my beers without
knowing it.  Someday I will chill the wort to ferment temp, rack off the
trub and pitch active yeast just to see what, if any, is the difference.

I have made only 4 lagers so far (all grain).  The last (the vienna) was
lagered in the secondary for two months (see above).  It tasted great as soon
as I kegged and carbonated it.  I presume it will taste better over time (if
it lasts).

The previous lagers were fermented, kegged and carbonated and then lagered.
They all had a distinct DMS smell that dissapated quickly after pouring.  I
am guessing that the lagering in a vented container was what allowed the DMS
smell to dissipate from my latest effort.

Also, I ferment, lager and deliver my beer at 48f - I only have one refer!


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Date: Thu, 26 Sep 91 11:43:48 CDT
From: gjfix at utamat.uta.edu (George J Fix)

I have been asked to post a brief review of my experience with dry hopping.
For better or worse here it is!
Let me first say that I have a very high regard for the practice.There are
to be sure certain styles where it does not work.Some Belgium beers come 
to mind where hop flavoring of any kind is unwelcome because it would
interfer with other characteristics deemed to be more desirable
in these styles.Continental lagers (light,amber,or dark) are perhaps
another class. Here the" kettle hop flavor"( taste and aroma) is
presumably more appropriate than a "dry hop flavor".With these two possible
exceptions noted ,I feel dry hopping can be used to advantage in just 
every thing else.A fact that is often overlooked ,but one that is well
documented in historical references, is that dry hopping was extensively
used in turn of the century brewing in the US.According to one reference
(Zimmermann) the practice was essential in rescuing American lagers
from what otherwise  would be a "unforgiving blandness".While popular
taste has changed since then,the reaction systems which are capable
of rescuing a beer from blandness have not!
The first practical point to be made is that our hops are loaded
with microbes.In a recent study the folks at Cal-Davis have 
identified over 100 strains of yeast and bacteria in hops that
are potentially aggressive to beer.They also examined the effects
from these microbes when hops are added "as is"to fermenters.In 
all cases they found no effects.There was usually 100% mortality
within the first 48 hours of active fermentation,and even with heavily 
infected hops the microbes were too weak to become metabolically 
active before their demise.They concluded that the addition of
unsterilized hops to the fermenter is a safe practice.My experience
is compatible with these findings. I have,however,been disappointed
in the results with this particular method
for reasons that may or may not
be relevant to others.My biggest complaint is the instability of
the hop aroma so produced.It tends to disappear after the beer is served,
and losses intensity with age(in either bottle or keg).
Because of this I feel the storage tanks are the best place to dry
hop.The extra contact time helps with the stability of the aroma,and
valuable hop volatiles are not scrubed out with CO2 as they tend to 
be in the fermenter.Another bonus is the mellowness of the hop bitter
that is extracted.All of the harsh bitter constituents(iso-betas and
other resins) are insolable in beer at storage temperatures.Given
time they will precipitate out.
Infections will not automatically result if hops are added" as is" to
storage tanks.My experience is that infections will occur at most 10% of the
time.The suggestion of sterilizing hops by soaking them in a 80 proof
spirit(mentioned in an earlier Digest) is imaginative ,and surely will
cut down on the number of times infected flavors arise.However, it has
been my experience that such spirits are not a complete sterilant.Beer
spoilers can not grow in such media, but they can survive the experience.To
get a complete kill one may have to go a 180-200 proof spirit,something
as a matter of personal prefernce I would not like added to my beers in even 
small amounts.I have been working with steam sterilization as an alternative 
to "as is" addition.There will be a loss of hop oils,but if the steam can
be kept dry, this can be held to a minimum.For example,if the hops are
suspended in a pressure cooker(which will give moderately dry steam),then
only five mins. at full pressure is needed for a 100% kill,and the lost in oils
is only around 50%.Thus,if your recipe calls for 1/2 oz. dry hops, one
need only double this amount to achieve the desired effect.
One final point--and by a wide margin the most important--is that oxygen
has deleterious effects on every aspect of hop flavor.I have found a direct
correlation between the stability of hop aroma and the mellowness of hop
taste with the following:
       (i) amount of dissolved oxygen in storage(This is normally zero)
       (ii) oxygen pickup in transfer
       (iii)amount of air traped in the final container at fill
As any of these are increased ,Ihave found the hop aroma tends to become
more unstable and the hop taste becomes harsher.
Mike:I hope this is what you were looking for.



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Date: 	Thu, 26 Sep 1991 09:21:00 -0400
From: MIKE LIGAS <LIGAS at SSCvax.CIS.McMaster.CA>
Subject: Re: Attenuation/ Wyeast ALT

In HD732 TSAMSEL at ISDRES.ER.USGS.GOV writes:

>Pardon my (seeming) ignorance, but what exactly is attenuation re:
>yeast?
>Also, is the Wyeast Altbier a slow yeast? I have used the London ale and
>the german ale Wyeast and they were quick to finish primary (5-8 days).
>I pitched the alt 2 weeks ago and the fermentation lock is still bubbling
>away. Since i am going in for surgery Friday and will not be able to lift
>a carboy for a week, would the Wyeast Alt be Ok for another 10 days?

The "Dictionary of Beer and Brewing", compiled by Carl Forget says the
following:

ATTENUATION.  The percentage reduction in the wort's specific gravity caused by
              the transformation of contained sugars into alcohol and carbon
              dioxide gas through fermentation. The fermentable sugars in the
              wort (which have a higher specific gravity than water) are
              converted into alcohol (which has a lower specific gravity than
              water) and carbon dioxide gas (which escapes as gas).
                   C6H12O6 ----> 2C2H6OH + 2CO2
              The percentage drop in gravity is measured with a saccharometer
              and calculated as follows:
                   Formula: A=(B-b)/BX100
                   Example: (12-4)/12X100 = 66.6%
                   A = attenuation: % of sugar of the original wort converted
                       into alcohol and carbon dioxide after or during
                       fermentation.
                   B = original gravity in deg. Balling (or Plato) prior to
                       fermentation.
                   b = specific gravity in deg. Balling (or Plato) after or
                       during fermentation.

Yes, the Wyeast Alt yeast is slow, but I found the German yeast slow too. Don't
worry about your beer. It will be fine for another 10 days. Your health is more
important. Get well soon! I hope you'll at least be able to lift a glass after
surgery. ;-)

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Date: Thu, 26 Sep 91 13:35:33 EST
From: jm at sead.siemens.com (Jeff Mizener  at  Siemens Energy)
Subject: Beer Related Trivia


I just returned from a business trip to Berlin (not exactly the brewery
capital of the universe) and while there, I learned the following factoid, 
here revealed in the context of a story:

I was going out to dinner with a colleague in Berlin and his wife, and
as we exited their appartment, I noticed hops growing outside his front
door.  Wow, I said, this is great.  Germany is beer country, hops growing
outside everybodies front door!  Why, they asked, was this so interesting?
Well, said I, I'm going to start brewing my own beer, and some people whose
writings I have read (in this digest...) are growing their own hops.
How very nice, they said, to be able to brew your own beer.  Why?

You see, it's illegal in Germany.

Why?  Taxes, don't you know.

And even at the most high-priced store in high-priced Berlin (Ka-De-We),
a half litre of Erdinger Hefeweizen (the best), costs only DM1.78.  (About
a dollar and 15 cents,  Altenmuenster costs a bit more).

And I could get 4 of them in my briefcase.

Next time I'll take a bigger briefcase.  The customs man said a whole case
wouldn't bother him.

Relaxed,

Jeff

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Mizener / Siemens Energy & Automation / Intelligent SwitchGear Systems
Raleigh, NC / jm at sead.siemens.com / (919) 365-2551 / 

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Date: Thu, 26 Sep 91 12:25:21 EDT
From: eisen at kopf.HQ.Ileaf.COM (Carl West)
Subject: attenuation, spelt, bananas 

Best I can tell from my reading, the sugars we are generally concerned 
with can be classed as single, double, triple, and quadruple. Bigger 
than that and they're either starches or unfermentable or both (shows 
how clear I am on the subject). Anyway, your wort has all these sugars 
in it. Some yeasts can only digest single and double sugars (low attenuation), 
some can digest those and triple sugars (medium attenuation), and some can 
digest all four of these classes of sugar (high attenuation). Where alchohol 
tolerance comes into play, I'm not sure, but I don't think it matters to most 
of us because the yeast runs out of food before it hits that limit (my theory). 
An extremely high gravity wort might be another story.

Spelt:

Spelt is probably being touted as healthful because it's chaff stays 
with the seed, more fiber!


Bananas:

You've heard of people smoking banana skins? Well apparently 
there's something to it, I'm told that sub-fatal doses of 
arsenic can cause hallucinatory experiences. Guess what gets
concentrated in banana skins? Arsenic. 
Probably not a good homebrew ingredient. Peel 'em.


Head:

I'm still mystified about wanting a head on your beer.
I understand that a well retained head indicates that the beer 
probably has good body, but I can determine that with my mouth. :) 
For me, a thick head just means I've either got to wait for it 
to go down or get it all over my moustache (tray swave and de-boner). 
I try to pour so I don't get much of a head, it's much less inconvenient. 
Just what am I missing?

Carl

When I stop learning, bury me.


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Date: Thu, 26 Sep 91 12:42:20 PDT
From: florianb at chip.cna.tek.com
Subject: it just goes to show you...

Geez!  I mention one simple opinion and the house comes down.  I introduce
a totally new concept in home brewing, and nobody notices.  !?

Last week, I posted a note describing a method of sparging which involves
dumping all the sparge water in at once into the picnic cooler.  I 
expected several comments to come from the 500-1000 people who 
subscribe to this digest.  The most I got were two direct mail messages
indicating interest.  I'd still like to know if anyone but me has tried
the sparging method I described and how well it has worked for them.

And it doesn't require any "skinny" girls to pull it off...



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Date: Thu, 26 Sep 91 09:42:12 PDT
From: hartman at varian.varian.com (John Hartman)
Subject: Torrefied Wheat, Say What?

Hi All--

I'm an all-grain brewer who would like to try my hand at making a version
of Young's ESB.  According to "The Real Ale Drinker's Almanac", by Roger Protz,
the recipe calls for Maris Otter pale malt (97%) and torrefied wheat (3%).

Does anyone have specifics on Maris Otter pale malt?  Is it any different
from ordinary English 2-row pale malt?

I'd like to use torrefied wheat  but have been  unable to locate a U.S.
supplier.  My  understanding  of  torrefication   is  that  it  involves
roasting unmalted grain (possibly under pressure) until it pops or puffs like
puffed wheat.  Does anyone know of a supplier of torrefied wheat or of a
precedure for making it?

Thanks in advance,
John (hartman at varian.com)

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Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1991 16:18:50 CDT
From: freidin at mv3600.chem.nwu.edu
Subject: Archives / FTP Questions

Hi. I have been reading the digest for a few months now and really
enjoy learning more about homebrewing.  I finally figured out how
to FTP with the archives.  Any hints about how to read the file
I get back would be appreciated.  I assume that I need some utility
to decompress the file.  You can E-Mail directly if you prefer.
 
 
                         Thanks,
 
                         Howard Freidin
                         freidin at mv3600.chem.nwu.edu
 

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Date: Thu, 26 Sep 91 15:43:19 PDT
From: bgros at sensitivity.berkeley.edu (Bryan Gros)
Subject: TCJOHB ed. 2

there is a second edition of Papazian's book due out in October.  If
someone finds one, let us know so we can rush out and buy it!  Also,
it would be nice if someone could post the new stuff.  Maybe me if
I find it first.

 What is the difference between Munich style wheat beer and Anchor
style wheat beers?  

                                        - Bryan

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Date: 26 Sep 91 16:18 -0700
From: Doug Latornell <latornel at unixg.ubc.ca>
Subject: Hops Substitutions

I'm about to brew a cherry stout based largely on Papazian's Cherry Fever
Stout recipe.  Unfortunately, my local supplier has neither Bulion nor 
Williamette hops (for which the recipe calls) so I am open to suggestions
as to suitable substitutes.  The Bulion are for boiling and the Williamette
for finishing.  Also, would anyone be willing to venture ballpark alpha
acid percentages for these varieties to help me in working out the mass of
substitute hops I need. (I realise that the alpha acid % is variable from
crop to crop but any typical values would be of help).

==================
Doug Latornell
CAM/Robotics Lab --- Mech. Eng. Dept.	 <latornell at mech.ubc.ca>
University of British Columbia		 <latornel at unixg.ubc.ca>
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

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Date: Thu, 26 Sep 91 17:51:06 PDT
From: Tom Hamilton <tlh at ISI.EDU>
Subject: Oven sanitizing bottles


In HBD 731 Jeff Frane sez:

>>I HATE sanitizing my bottles. 

Amen. I have found the simplest and most effective way to deal with this naggin
g
problem (on advice from WYeast's Dave Logsdon). I put my clean bottles in an
oven, turn the temp to 350^ and leave them for 1-1/2 hours, turn off the oven
and let them cool down to be filled. This can be done the night before bottling
or if I want to do it well ahead of time, I put little foil caps on each bottle
before sterilizing, then put them back in their cases (with the caps intact)
until I'm ready to bottle. No problem! This has made the whole concept of
bottling *much* more palatable.

I too have used this method and it seems to work great but I have one
concern. The same person who demo'd this idea at the local beer club
meeting mentioned that after three or four times in the oven the
bottles would become substantially weaker. Now if like me you have one
set of clean, delabeled dark brown bottles that you use over and over,
this seems like not such a wise idea. The person who put forth this
information is a doctor and works in a lab sterilizing things etc. for
a living so I'm inclined to beleive her but I'd also like a couple
other opinions before I give up on this method because like Jeff said
it makes bottling much more palatable. Anybody heard of Pyrex beer
bottles!?

Slainthe!    -    Tom    -     U of So Cal   -    Info  Sci  Inst

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Date: 	Thu, 26 Sep 1991 17:14:13 -0400
From: hpfcmr.fc.hp.com!hplabs!uunet!bnr-vpa!bnr-rsc!crick (Bill Crick)
Subject: maibock, checkvalves, grain, and washers

4 Questions:

1. I have what I believe is a Corona grain mill. To get a good crushing,
   I have to loosen the bolts that hold the outer grinding plate to the
   point that its holder wobbles around a bit. I have thought of putting
   a 0.5mm washer in there(NOte recent post about needing washers).
   This is with the bolt that pushes the 
   spring loaded ball to put tension on the outer plate wound right out to 
   no tension. IS this normal? What is the tension spring for then?
   If I tighten the two bolts holding the outer plate holder tight, I get 
   far too fine a grind. COmments?
   Note Iv'e been using this mill like this for several years, and with
   the bolts loose, I get a good grind, but adjusting the grind is tricky.
   Also I wonder if the wobbling of the plate and its holder is the reason
   that about 5% or so of the kernels aren't crushed (mainly smaller ones).
 

2. For people running multiple kegs off of one CO2 cylinder, how do you
   stop things (deadly microbes say) from migrating from one keg to the other?
   Are there check valves between the regulator or manifold, and each keg?
   Also how do you clean or sanitize the gas lines? I've never seen anyone
   mention this in any procedures. If you got a  contamination in one of the
   kegs, wouldn't it get into the lines? Or again is there a check valve 
   I don't know about.

3.Regarding Grain prices, we just bought 100lbs of two row malt for 
  $36.00 Canadian from a place called Great Western Grain Supply.
  The malt was by Canada Malting. That's $0.36Cdn per pound.
  It came in a woven plastic grain bag with a heavy duty plastic liner.

4. Does anyone have an all grain recipe for Mai Bock?
   Why don't the books that list beer classifications mention Mai Bock?
   Most seem to think BOck is alway a dark beer?

Bill Crick ->Ich Brua, Dewegen Ich Bin! (I brew, therfore I am!)



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Date: Thu, 26 Sep 91 21:22 MDT
From: drutx!homer at att.att.com
Subject: New Complete Joy of Home Brewing

I picked up today the Revised and Updated issue of CJOHB. NCJOHB??
It has 60 more pages than the first edition. Looking at the table
of contents Charlie has added an appendix on sour mash and Belgian
Lambic and a index. He has added to the sections on Classic Beer
Styles, Recipes and Advanced Homebrewing.

The book is published by Avon ISBN 0-380-76366-4, $9.95.
The AHA ((303) 446-0816) got the book in today.

Jim Homer
att!drutx!homer

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #733, 09/27/91
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