---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Digby, Mead, the new CJoHB, Sour Mash lambics, s. delbruckii (Mike Sharp)
  Chrishmash (hic!) Ale (wbt)
  cara pils (Jonathan A. Rodin)
  Re: Oxidizing Wort (John DeCarlo)
  Re: anybody want a carboy? (Peter Kester)
  Re: Father Barleywine's yeast reuse trick -- first attempt (Marc Rouleau)
  Re: Yeast and Spec. Grav's. (Marc Rouleau)
  Recipes (Timothy Mavor)
  "Beareth an Egge" (MICHAEL DORFMAN)
  Request for info... (Dave Beedle)
  Raspberry mead ("Spencer W. Thomas")
  old terminology ("Spencer W. Thomas")
  Egges and such... (Dave Rose)
  Re: Homebrew Digest #741 (October 09, 1991)  (jmellby)
  Re: Eggs in Mead (Fritz Keinert)
  Re: Homebrew Digest #743 (October 18, 1991)  (Larry McDonough)
  Boston Pubs.. (Kevin N. Carpenter)
  beareth an egge..., oxidising boiling wort (Carl West)
  Bearing eggs... (BREIN)
  Advertising & HBD (hersh)
  Eggs and Mead  (Douglas Brainard)
  RE- New Brewer suggested re (Rad Equipment)
  RE: New Brewer suggested reading (J._ Time:8:24 AM     Date:10/18/91
  YABPQ (John Bankert)
  Re: Wyeast 1007 (bill)
  oxidation vs. oxygenation (cckweiss)
  Oxidation During the Boil (C.R. Saikley)
  My favorite porter (Chuck Coronella)
  M&F Stout kit (Curt Freeman)
  Cleaning buckets & safety (Bob Jones)
  Re: Sir Digby's mead (burghart)
  Kenhelme Digbie's "Eggs" (Michael Tighe)
  Extract Analysis: which issue? (Rob Strout)
  Where There's Smoke.... (C.R. Saikley)
  Apricot, Spruce, Oxygen (Norm Pyle)
  Orange County Brewclubs? (Brian Davis)
  xmas lager (Donald Oconnor)
  article ("STUART D LUMAN")


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[Please do not send me requests for back issues!]
Archives are available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Oct 91 7:13:04 EDT
From: Mike Sharp <msharp at cs.ulowell.edu>
Subject: Digby, Mead, the new CJoHB, Sour Mash lambics, s. delbruckii

Drew Lawson asks:
> How long does it take for mead to clarify?  Most of what I
and then he wonders:
> I just want to know whether I was too impatient or just have a cloudy batch.

Yup, you were too impatient.  It can take more than a few months for a mead
to clear.  How long exactly?  Well, it all depends on the mead so there
isn't a norm.  When making mead its best to just forget about it after you
rack it into the secondary.  In a few months time (like 3 or 4) go dig it
out of the back of the closet and see what its doing.  If its not clear then
forget about it for a while longer.

Mike Ligas says:
> The larger colonies would be S. delbrueckii. If you're interested I wrote a
> fairly extensive article on purifying S. delbrueckii from the Wyeast mixed
> culture. The article appeared in HD686, July 24, 1991, "Isolating S.
> delbrueckii".
Thanks Mike, you've saved me time analyzing the two yeasts.  I've already
isolated the two strains, I was just about to try and figure out which
was which.

Jacob Galley asks:
> I have finally found a copy of _The Closet of the Eminently Learned
> Sir Kenelme Digbie Kt. Opened: [whot a long title!]
This is a _*wonderfull*_ resource for mead/metheglin/mellomel recepies.
Its more than a few orders of magnitude better than _anything_ currently
in print on mead making.  Of course you do need to figure out what 
Digby is talking about first...

> Has anyone out there ever heard of putting egg whites in the boil? I
> don't see how that could have any positive effect, though I'm no
> expert on eggs or on mead.
hmm, I remember reading something about this.  I could be completely
wrong, but I believe the egg white had something to do with helping to
clarify the mead.  

> What on earth does the phrase "beareth an Egge" mean?
What Digby is doing is using an egg to measure the sugar (honey) content
of you wort.  Then you have enough honey (I use 10lb/5gal) an egg will
float on the top of your wort.

When he refers to 'summing off the top', he means you want to remove
the majority of the wax that will form a scum on top of your wort.

> 		Jacob Galley, merely an undergraduate in The College
and probably a new SCA member?  It seems that only SCA members have kept
Digby's works alive -- via the xerox printing house.

and, from a summary of the new CJoHB:
>  -  APPENDIX 6 - "Sour Mash/Extract Beers and Belgian Lambic" added, 7 pages.
>    Includes recipes:  "Vicarious Gueuze Lambic" and "Loysenian Cherry Kriek"
hmm, I guess I can pack up my lambic mailing list now.  The brewing gods have
spoken & it only takes 7 pages to cover making lambics.  I can just hear 
J-X Guinard going into his 'abuse of the term lambic' speach right now.

Anyway, I just wanted to point out something here.  Sour Mashing does not
_by_any_streach_of_the_immagination_ yield a lambic.  Yah, you get an acidic
beer, but its a differnt kind of acidity (the taste is siginficantly
different) further, you still don't have the yeasts that add the distinctive
flavors of a lambic.  These yeast, BTW, are not even related to S. cerevisiae
and you won't be seeing them in a Wyeast package.  Finally, since I don't
want to appear to be bashing too heavily on Charlie, I will be going out
and getting one of these now CJoHB.  I may even make one of these sour 
mashed pseudo lambics myself so I can demonstrate my point about sour
mashing v.s. bacterial infection (the 'real' technique is to contaminate
your beer with P. cerevisiae on purpose).


and on scalding yourself:  for those of you with BruHeats, watch out for
the little spiggot.  I had the unpleasant experience of watching it drop
out of the bucket ~2min. from the end of my boil (at about 1:00AM too!)
I have no idea why it did this.  All I can think of is that I hit the
nut with my spoon, but even that doesn't make sense.  Oh well, I'll be
moving up a homemade stainless setup soon.

		--Mike 

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Date: Fri, 18 Oct 91 7:59:59 EDT
From: cbema!wbt at att.att.com
Subject: Chrishmash (hic!) Ale

Two weeks ago my brewing partners and I tried to make Phil Fleming's
Christmas Ale from the recipe posted here.  I got a lot of requests for the
recipe, so I'll reproduce it here:

Ingredients for 5 gallons

3 1/2 pounds Munton and Fison Stout Kit
3 1/2 pounds Munton and Fison amber dry malt extract 
3     pounds Munton and Fison amber dry malt extract }  ?? Typo ??
1/2   ounce Hallertauer hops (60 minutes)
1/2   ounce Hallertauer hops (5 minutes)
3/4   pound honey
5     3-inch cinnamon sticks
2     teaspoons allspice
1     teaspoon cloves
6     ounces ginger root
6     rinds from medium size oranges (scrape the white insides of the 
                                      rind away)
      Wyeast No. 1007 German ale liquid yeast
7     ounces corn sugar for priming

*O.G.:  1.069
*T.G.:  1.030
*Primary fermentation: 14 days  at  61 degrees F.
*Age when judged: six months

BREWER'S SPECIFICS
     Simmer spices and honey (45 minutes). Boil malt and hops (50 minutes).
Add finishing hops and boil (5 minutes). Cool, strain and pitch yeast.
[Note: It's not made clear, but the honey/spice mix is added to the wort
just before cooling, they're not boiled together.]

- ---

Many will recall the debate over whether that second addition (3 pounds) 
of DME is actually needed or is a typo.  When we brewed two weeks ago, we
assumed the latter and left it out; this produced an O.G. of 1.049.
Someone else wrote to the digest at that time that they'd just brewed this
recipe and had got an O.G. of 1.050.

On the weak justification that "it's not fair to judge the recipe without
making it right," (but in fact because we just wanted more beer) we decided
to try again with the extra 3 lbs.  Actually, we only used 6 lbs total of
the amber DME because I was too lazy to open a third (3-lb) bag of extract
for that last half pound.  Inexplicably, though, we arrived at an O.G. of
1.088 (estimated; our hydrometer scale stops at 1.080).

Sense any not make this me to does.   In our first brew we had 3.3 + 3.5 +
 .75 lbs or about 7.5 pounds of fermentables; OG 1.049 means we were getting
about 6.5 s.g. points per pound.  It doesn't make sense that adding an
additional 2.5 lbs would add nearly 40 more s.g. points.


My belief is that there was something wrong with our gravity measurment.
We certainly rechecked it many times, and we took the reading after the
cooled wort was racked into a carboy and agitated (so it should be well
mixed, and if not, the denser liquid should have sunk to the bottom of the
carboy; our gravity sample came from the top).  There were certainly a lot
of unsedimented particles in the wort, but I can't rationalize how they
could increase the gravity that much (and they were present when we brewed
our first batch to o.g. 1.049, as well).

At this point, I'm accusing my brewing partner of having dense water. 8-)
I stand by my earlier recommendation that the second, 3-lb entry is needed.

And if nothing else, at least we can offer our Christmas brew in both
Regular and High-Test! 

 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker	AT&T Network Systems - Columbus      wbt at cbnews.att.com


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Date: Fri, 18 Oct 91 08:33:43 -0400
From: rodin at ftp.com (Jonathan A. Rodin)
Subject: cara pils

Recently, I saw a recipe I wanted to try which called for cara pils.  My
local homebrew store didn't have cara pils on the shelves nor in the
catalog.  (I meant to ask and forgot.)  Neither Papazian nor Miller make
any mention of cara pils.  So, what is cara pils?  Is it a malt that
also goes by some other name?  What does it add to the brew?

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jon Rodin		FTP Software, Inc.		voice: (617) 224-6261
rodin at ftp.com		26 Princess Street		fax:   (617) 245-7943
	     		Wakefield, MA  01880

I met a Puppy as I went walking;  We got talking, Puppy and I.
"Where are you going this fine nice day?"  (I said to the Puppy as he went by).
"Up in the hills to roll and play."  "I'll come with you, Puppy," said I.
	A. A. Milne



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Date: Friday, 18 Oct 1991 08:52:12 EDT
From: m14051 at mwvm.mitre.org (John DeCarlo)
Subject: Re: Oxidizing Wort

>From: Chuck Coronella <CORONELLRJDS at CHE.UTAH.EDU>

>Sometime last week, before we were interrupted, Ifor Williams
><ifor at computer-science.manchester.ac.uk> posed a question that
>caught my interest:

>>This leads to my question - if the wort oxidises so easily,
>>does it not oxidise during a long open boil? If not, why not?
>>If so, is the oxidation not much more significant that can be
>>expected during the other brewing stages?

>Hmmm...  Yeah, what?  Certainly, hot wort is exposed to oxygen
>during a long, open boil.  We're told that these are all the
>criteria (hot wort + O2) that cause oxidation, with all its
>consequences.  (Can't remember what they are, but I remember
>being told to avoid it.) So what gives?

OK, to further muddy the waters, we know that boiling water
"drives out" all the dissolved O2, so we need to be increasingly
vigilant about aerating when using pre-boiled water.

So, does a long, open boil continually add and then "drive out"
O2?  Or does something else happen instead?

What about the "caramelization" that happens to boiled wort?  Is
that all due to heat or at least partially due to the presence of
O2?

John "Another in the long line of people with questions but
      no answers to contribute" DeCarlo

Internet: jdecarlo at mitre.org
           (or John.DeCarlo at f131.n109.z1.fidonet.org)
Fidonet:  1:109/131

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Date: Fri, 18 Oct 91 08:53:10 -0400
From: m22457 at mwunix.mitre.org (Peter Kester)
Subject: Re: anybody want a carboy?
Full-Name: Peter Kester


I could definitely use a glass carboy so let me know the details.  I
have friends in central/northern jersey that could act as courier to
avoid shipping.  I will myself be heading up to my parent's in north
Jersey for Thanksgiving.

Thanks.
Pete

                                     +-------+
Peter J. Kester                      |        \
INTERNET:   pkester at mitre.org        |        /
            M22457 at mwvm.mitre.org    +-------+
BITNET:     pkester at mitre            | /
VOICE:      (703) 883-5623 [Work]    |+
                                     | \

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Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1991 13:32:01 EDT
From: Marc Rouleau <mer6g at fuggles.acc.Virginia.EDU>
Subject: Re: Father Barleywine's yeast reuse trick -- first attempt

I've been using the same yeast (Wyeast German Ale) from one original
packet for the past fourteen batches.  At first I would just save
some slurry in a bottle and use it to pitch the next batch.  Starting
last spring when Father Barleywine posted his articles about pitching
directly onto the yeast cake and not worrying so much about sanitation,
I have pitched repeatedly (8 times) by dumping new wort onto the yeast
cake in the same 7 gallon carboy.

I siphon the beer off the cake and bottle it.  I leave the carboy and
the yeast cake in the fermentation fridge at 55 degrees.  The next time
I brew, I just drain the clear cool filtered wort directly into the
carboy.

I use a half-teaspoon of Irish moss in the last 15 minutes of the boil
to encourage a good break, and I filter the cool wort through a fine-mesh
nylon straining bag to eliminate trub.  The yeast cake has gotten kinda
big (about 2 inches deep), but there's still enough headroom for a
fairly vigorous fermentation.

Last spring I also stopped using bleach.  I don't sanitize anything.
Ordinary kitchen cleanliness standards (get the big chunks off!) have
been sufficient for me.  I don't keep my beer around for more than a
few months though -- I don't know if it would keep for a year or more.

    -- Marc Rouleau

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Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1991 09:01:02 EDT
From: Marc Rouleau <mer6g at fuggles.acc.Virginia.EDU>
Subject: Re: Yeast and Spec. Grav's.

>From the Wyeast spec sheet on German Ale yeast:
> ferments well down to 55 deg. F (12 deg. C).  [...] Optimum fermentation
> temperature: 62 deg. F (17 deg. C).

I've been assuming that the lowest temperature at which a yeast strain
can operate is the best one to use.  Most beer-spoiling bacteria and
wild yeast aren't happy at 55 degrees, right?  I wonder how Wyeast defines
"optimum".  Perhaps it's the highest temperature at which yeast can
operate without producing undesirable byproducts?

Should I ferment at 62 or 55?

    -- Marc Rouleau

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Date: Fri, 18 Oct 91 09:11:16 -0400
From: Timothy Mavor <tmavor at pandora.cms.udel.edu>
Subject: Recipes


My jitteriness has now subsided, thanks to HBD being back on line!

Concerning recipes that are posted here.....

I certainly encourage people to post recipes, as I am always willing
to experiment with a different style or the addition of certain spices
and whatnot, but I noticed that many do not include what size the
batch is making.  Is it 5 gallons, or 6, or 10?  This may seem
unimportant to some, since they may realize by inspection of the 
recipe and the amount of malt,etc. and the SG that it is X gallons.  
But us beginners (only 11 batches made to date) need most everything
explained out in black and white, and a noting of the batch size would
certainly help me out.  I don't want this to sound like a flame, it's
just that when I'm making homebrew, I don't want to worry! ;^)
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Mavor		   |  "If a cow explodes in my office, but
College of Marine Studies  |   there is no one there to hear it,
Univ. of Delaware	   |   does it make a sound?"
Newark, DE 19716	   | 
tmavor at pandora.cms.udel.edu|  "That is udderly ridiculous!"		---------------------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Fri, 18 Oct 91 09:17 EDT
From: MICHAEL DORFMAN <MDORFMAN at hamp.hampshire.edu>
Subject: "Beareth an Egge"

Re: the Mead recipe that "Beareth an Egge"

"Beareth an Egge" means precisely that-- that it will bear
the weight of an egg, floating on top, rather than sinking.
I believe your recipe said that it should bear an egg "so that
the breadth of a groat is out of the water."  So there you go.
That wasn't hard, was it?



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Date: Fri, 18 Oct 91 8:23:05 CDT
From: dbeedle at rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (Dave Beedle)
Subject: Request for info...


     Hello folks!  Well I've managed to be appointed/volenteered to do a
couple talks for our local homebrew club!  So I'm collecting information on
   1)  Saaz hops - Where are they grown?  Distinguishing characteristics.
Alpha content.  Classic beers it is found in.  That sort of info.

   2) Strong Beers - such as Bock, Double Bock, Eisenbock, etc.  What are some
classic kinds.  Characteristics.  Starting gravity.  Final gravity.  Alcohol
content.  etc...

    Maybe you could point me in the direction to find some of this info?

    BTW, I do have M.J.s "New World Guide to Beer".  Any place else?

     Thanks for any help!

TTFN

- --
  Dave Beedle                                     Office of Academic Computing
                                                     Illinois State University
  Internet:  dbeedle at rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu                     136A Julian Hall
    Bitnet:  dbeedle at ilstu.bitnet                           Normal, Il   61761

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Date: Fri, 18 Oct 91 09:58:20 EDT
From: "Spencer W. Thomas" <Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu>
Subject: Raspberry mead

I had the most wonderful raspberry mead last night at the Ann Arbor
Brewer's Guild meeting.  It reminded me of those wonderful eau-de-vies
you can get in France, but without the high alcohol bite.  The
raspberry flavor was ethereal and fresh.  I asked the brewer how he did
it.  This, roughly, is his recipe (I apologize in advance for any
errors and omissions):

As the raspberries become ripe, pick them and freeze them on trays (he
implied he picked them several times a day to get peak ripeness).  Once
frozen, they can be scraped off the trays into a large plastic
container (and kept frozen).  Once you have enough raspberries (10lbs
in this case), dump them into your fermenter and sanitize with sulfite
for 24 hrs. (I assume this means that you add the sulfite, cover and
let sit for 24 hours.  Not having used sulfite as a sanitizing agent, I'm
not sure.)

Boil up the honey and water (I think he used 17 lbs in that batch, for
5 gallons of mead), cool, pour over the raspberries, and pitch (not
sure of the yeast).  Age at least 6 months.  He started this batch in
June, and it was (quite) drinkable last night.  It should continue to get
better at least until Christmas.

Next berry season, I may have to try this.

=Spencer W. Thomas 		HSITN, U of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI 48109
spencer at med.umich.edu		313-747-2778


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Date: Fri, 18 Oct 91 10:08:40 EDT
From: "Spencer W. Thomas" <Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu>
Subject: old terminology

Here's my guess: 

Egg whites are used as a clarifying medium.  They help precipitate
proteins that will cause cloudiness.

A groat is a grain (usually of oats).

I believe that "beareth an Egg" means that you should put a whole egg
into the wort (is it still wort if it's mead?) and see if it floats. 
At least the thickness of a groat (oat grain) should be sticking out
above the surface (about 1/16 inch?).  This would correspond to a
particular specific gravity.  The density (specific gravity) of an egg
changes as it ages, thus the requirement for a freshly laid egg.

You may already know this, and it doesn't help, anyway, but "Sack"
typically means sherry.


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Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1991 10:23 EDT
From: Dave Rose <CHOLM at HUBIO2.HARVARD.EDU>
Subject: Egges and such...

	Recently, in regard to an old (mead?) recipe, someone queried:

>Has anyone out there ever heard of putting egg whites in the boil? I
>don't see how that could have any positive effect, though I'm no
>expert on eggs or on mead. (In another recipe, Sir Digby requires that
>the egg be "freshly laid.")
>
>What on earth does the phrase "beareth an Egge" mean? Most of his mead
>and metheglin recipes bear eggs near the end of the boil. Is this an
>especially mucky portion of the scum? Is it the remains of the egg whites?
>What does the thickness of the "Egge" have to do with anything, if
>you've been scumming off the top all the while? (My Webster's says
>that a groat is an old coin worth four pennies.)    


	I don't know the answers for sure but I'm willing to take a couple 
of guesses:
	
	I think I have read of egg whites, or purified albumin which is 
pretty much the same thing, being used as a clarifying agent by some 
commercial breweries.  Basically, albumins are pretty big pretty inert 
proteins that coagulate when you boil them. That's why boiled eggs turn
white, the protein has coagulated and come out of solution.  When you boil 
your wort, proteins in the wort will denature, but will not necessarily 
coagulate (clump together), since they are present in pretty low
concentration, and are therefore not very likely to glom onto one another.
By throwing in a lot of albumin you increase the amount of protein, and when 
the albumin coagulates all the wort proteins coagulate along with it.
The (relatively) big blobs of coagulated protein will settle out, 
clearing the wort.  Eggs also contain some proteases which break down albumin
over time into smaller polypeptides.  That's why the white of a fresh egg 
will be very viscous, but an older one will be more watery.  Since larger
proteins coagulate better, you want your albumins as in tact as possible. I
think that explains Sir Digby's preference for fresh laid eggs.

	As for "Beareth an Egge" I would bet that an egge is an egg (not
too consistent in their spelling, these colonial types), and that it means
that the S.G. of the wort is high enough that an egg will be "borne", i.e.
will float.  I don't know the density of an egg, but it is greater than 
water (I seem to remember from the few times I have boiled eggs that they
sat on the bottom of the pan), and as you boil the solution will become
more dense due to the evaporation of water, and at some point an egg added
to the boil will float.  In short, behold the egg: the first hydrometer!

	

						Dave Rose
					CHOLM at HUBIO2.HARVARD.EDU


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Date: Fri, 18 Oct 91 07:11:05 -0500
From: jmellby at iluvatar.dseg.ti.com
Subject: Re: Homebrew Digest #741 (October 09, 1991) 

Rob,
I haven't gotten a Homebrew Digest since October 9th.  Have I been
inadvertntly dropped off the list?  If so, I would appreciate it if you
would put me back.

I believe that on the weekend of Oct 6-9 there were some problems
with out domain naming machine, which might have caused you to
have problems sending here.

Thanks,

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Date: Fri, 18 Oct 91 09:54:12 CDT
From: Fritz Keinert <keinert at iastate.edu>
Subject: Re: Eggs in Mead

In HD 743, Jacob Galley asks about some weird instructions in an old
recipe for mead:

> ...
> ... The rule of it's being boiled enough is, when it yieldeth
> no more scum, and beareth an Egge, so that the breadth of a groat is
> out of the water.
> ...
> What on earth does the phrase "beareth an Egge" mean? Most of his mead
> and metheglin recipes bear eggs near the end of the boil.

This is just a wild guess, but it sounds to me like he is using an egg
as a primitive hydrometer, to measure starting gravity. If the egg
sticks out a certain distance (whatever a "groat" is), the gravity is
right. 
- -------
Fritz Keinert                             phone:  (515) 294-5128
Department of Mathematics                 fax:    (515) 294-5454
Iowa State University                     e-mail: keinert at iastate.edu
Ames, IA 50011




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Date: Fri, 18 Oct 91 08:00:58 PDT
From: Larry McDonough <larrym%rondo at rand.org>
Subject: Re: Homebrew Digest #743 (October 18, 1991) 


	This is to verify that I am receiving the hb-digest
	successfully.

	larrym at rand.org

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Date: Fri, 18 Oct 91 10:27:32 CDT
From: kncarp at nicsn1.monsanto.com (Kevin N. Carpenter)
Subject: Boston Pubs..

I'm off to Boston/Littleton and will have a Saturday to kill.  Which pubs are
recommended?  Sorry for the noise...  E-mail responses will minimize it...

Kevin Carpenter
kncarp at nicsn1.monsanto.com

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Date: Fri, 18 Oct 91 10:58:08 EDT
From: eisen at kopf.HQ.Ileaf.COM (Carl West)
Subject: beareth an egge..., oxidising boiling wort

Digby is using the egg as a hydrometer, 

The rule of it's being boiled enough is, when it yieldeth no more 
scum, and beareth (holds up, floats) an (whole) Egge, so that the 
breadth of a groat (an area the size of a groat) is out of the water. 

if the liquor were not boiled enough the egge would float lower and 
expose less area above the water.

The trick now is finding out how big a groat was in 1669. And finding a fresh-laid egge. Or finding someone who has already done these things *and* taken a hydrometer reading.


It seems to me that though the wort is open to the air and it is hot, 
you'll find that the atmosphere just at the surface of the wort is 
relatively low in O2 and relatively high in H2O (probaply a minor consideration). More importantly note also that the surface-area:volume 
ratio is low, especially compared to when you pour the stuff. For example, 
consider a pot filled with burning gasoline, the size of the flame is 
largely dependent on the amount of gasoline exposed to the air, now 
consider pouring the burning gasoline into another container (DON'T *DO* IT!), 
the flames will reach far above your unfortunate hand because you have 
increased the surface area *tremendously*. Yes, you are getting some 
oxidation of your wort during the boil, but not much. Perhaps we should 
be maintaining a blanket of inert gas on top of our kettles :-)


Carl West

When I stop learning, bury me.


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Date:    Fri, 18 Oct 1991 8:39:44 PDT
From: BREIN at dsfvax.jpl.nasa.gov
Subject: Bearing eggs...

Jacob Galley writes:

>What on earth does the phrase "beareth an Egge" mean? Most of his mead
>and metheglin recipes bear eggs near the end of the boil. Is this an
>especially mucky portion of the scum? Is it the remains of the egg whites?
>What does the thickness of the "Egge" have to do with anything, if
>you've been scumming off the top all the while? (My Webster's says
>that a groat is an old coin worth four pennies.)

>I hope somebody reading this can help me out!

Dear Jacob:

In my opinion 'beareth an Egge, so that the breadth of a groat is
out of the water' means will a *whole* egg float in the liquor so that it
protrudes to the diameter of a groat coin.  Your knight was not making himself
clear. 

As hydrometers were not available to Sir Kenelme Digbie a floating egg would
have provided an approximate reading.  Are there any numismatic hydrologists who
would care to convert to a hydrometer reading a floating egg protruding to the
diameter of a groat coin?

As for the egg being freshly laid, this was probably to avoid using a rotten
egg.

Barry Rein
BREIN at gpvax.jpl.nasa.gov

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Date: Fri, 18 Oct 91 11:55:43 EDT
From: hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Advertising & HBD


>I was disturbed to hear from a fellow HBD/r.c.b subscriber yesterday
>that he was reluctant to post an announcement of an upcoming homebrew
>competition because of the recent flap about advertising on the net.

No one should ever be reluctant to make an announcement of a Homebrew
competition here on the HBD. Part of the HBDs purpose has always been to
provide a forum for such an announcement. I would not call passing along info &
details of competitions an "advertisement", but an "announcement" as the nature
of the information is pretty different.

When it comes to club events, tastings, announcements and events I think things
are pretty clear. The grey area approaches when it comes to products. Sure it
is nice to know about products, but I don't think anyone wants the HBD to
become the e-mail equivalent of the home shopping channel. While concise
announcements of the availability of new products with pointers on where to get
more info (e-mail, snail mail or phone) for those interested are perhaps
accetable, full fledged ads such as that we have recently seen here definitely 
step beyond the implicit boundaries of good taste we have seen here in the past.

I would propose that any future announcements of commercial products be limited
to a brief (1 or 2 line) description of the product and inclusion of a followup
address for more info. 

I would suggest that for competitions, tastings, club meetings and other events 
such information as necessary to inform the HBD members of the event be
provided within the boundaries of conciseness and good taste.

Well there my $0.02

 - Jay (I've posted many a competition & event announcement here with no problem
in the past) Hersh

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hopfen und Malz, Gott erhalts

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Date: Fri, 18 Oct 91 11:41:08 EDT
From: dcb at sunsrvr2.cci.com (Douglas Brainard)
Subject: Eggs and Mead 

Jacob Galley asks two questions about the use of eggs in making mead.

The practice of adding egg whites to a mead was apparently an attempt
to clarify the mead. I'll admit that I have not tried this particular 
variation yet, and can't say if the eggs work in the same manner as
would more modern additives. 

As to the matter of bearing an egg, think of it as a primitive
hydrometer - which is exactly what it is. At the proper specific
gravity, the egg should float in the mead, with a part of the egg 
exposed - about equal in width to a groat coin. I have never seen 
a reference to an egg used this way for a beer or ale - I suspect
that the gravity is not suficiently high enough to bear an egg at
all. I'm planning to do an article on eggs in brewing for a newsletter
I put out (next issue in January). I'll post the article here as well.



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Date: 18 Oct 91 09:14:04
From: Rad Equipment <Rad_Equipment at rad-mac1.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: RE- New Brewer suggested re

Subject:  RE: New Brewer suggested reading (J._ Time:8:24 AM     Date:10/18/91
JF> To Darryl: We'll have to wrassle about recommending
JF> Dave Miller's book. I think it's absolutely the wrong
JF> book for a beginning brewer...

I read Miller, then Papazian prior to my first batch (Miller had just been
released, and I found it in a "regular" bookstore before I found a local brew
shop and Papazian).  While not very encouraging to the fledgling extract
brewer, I think Miller gave me a much better sense of the role of sanitation
and the actual brewing process (starch conversion, fermentation, "breaks", etc)
that has stuck with me.  He comes to his subject with a very serious attitude. 
I must say that I was a bit relieved when I found Charlie and his "Relax"
attitude.  He is far more "readable" and certainly makes homebrewing sound more
attractive to the novice.  However, I think some folks come away from his book
a bit too relaxed.  Brewing good consistent beer is not a casual thing.  It
requires a lot of scrubbing and attention to the small details.  If that
attitude can be instilled in novices from the start, more of them will go on to
become advanced brewers. To folks who are serious about getting started I
always suggest reading both of these books and brewing a batch with an
established brewer, first.  I include a caveat that none of our homebrewing
Gurus are 100% correct and that experience is the best teacher (a nod to Mr.
Richman).  To those who just want to "try" it for the sake of saying that they
have brewed their own beer, I say "Go see Steve Norris at the Home Brew Co. 
He'll set you up with a kit and guide you through a batch."

RW...

       Russ Wigglesworth              CI$:      72300,61
 |~~|  UCSF Medical Center            Internet: Rad Equipment at RadMac1.ucsf.edu
 |HB|\ Dept. of Radiology, Rm. C-324  Voice:    415-476-3668 / 474-8126 (H)
 |__|/ San Francisco, CA 94143-0628


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Date: Fri, 18 Oct 91 11:29:08 EDT
From: jbankert at mailbox.syr.edu (John Bankert)
Subject: YABPQ


I'm going to be in NYC, Manhattan specifically, next Wed.  Anybody know of a
place where I could find a good beer?

thanks in advance

john bankert
jbankert at rodan.acs.syr.edu

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Date: Fri, 18 Oct 91 10:53:17 MDT
From: bill at baku.eece.unm.edu
Subject: Re: Wyeast 1007


Dave Rose <CHOLM at HUBIO2.HARVARD.EDU> writes....

>	Hi. I wanted to alert HBD readers to a possible problem with packets
>of Wyeast 1007 (German Ale) code dated August 14, 1991.

I had a problem with a packet of 1007 dated October 3, 1991.  I popped the
packet and it puffed up within 12 hours.  The next morning (about an
hour before I was going to brew) the packet exploded!!  I heard this was
a problem about a year ago, but I thought it was solved.  So, I went out
and bought another packet of 1007 (same date) and just made my starter
at 12 hours after popping.  Its fermenting even as we speak.  I thought
this was a packaging problem, I didn't even consider a bacterial infection.

 -Bill

===============================================================================
Bill Horne                                  | email: bill at geronimo.eece.unm.edu
Dept. of Electical and Computer Engineering |
University of New Mexico                    | Phone:   (505) 277-0805
Albuquerque, NM  87131  USA                 | Office:  EECE  224D
===============================================================================



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Date: Fri, 18 Oct 91 09:25:43 -0700
From: cckweiss at pollux.ucdavis.edu
Subject: oxidation vs. oxygenation

 
 
>This leads to my question - if the wort oxidises so easily, does it
>not oxidise during a long open boil? If not, why not? If so, is the
>oxidation not much more significant that can be expected during the
>other brewing stages?
 
>What am I missing?
 
Boiling tends to drive off all dissolved gases, including oxygen. I think this 
is due to the vapor pressure in the boil being greater than ambient air 
pressure. Colder liquids hold more dissolved gases -- that's why warm 
beers fizz more than cold beers.
 
The oxidation issue is also a function of temperature. At high temperature 
the stuff in the wort that is subject to oxidation is highly reactive, and 
combines with oxygen easily to form nasty tasting compounds. When cold, 
the stuff is not as reactive. If you don't believe that temperature can affect 
the rate of oxidation, just fill your room with crumpled newspapers and 
raise the temperature to around 450 degrees F... ;-)
 
What you want for optimal yeast growth is a large amount of available 
dissolved oxygen in the wort, not a large amount of oxygen that has been 
used up in chemical reactions with components of the wort. That's why you 
chill the wort first (reducing reactivity and increasing capacity to hold 
dissolved O2) and then aerate.
 
Ken Weiss
krweiss at ucdavis.edu

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Date: Fri, 18 Oct 91 10:39:14 PDT
From: grumpy!cr at uunet.UU.NET (C.R. Saikley)
Subject: Oxidation During the Boil



>>This leads to my question - if the wort oxidises so easily, does it
>>not oxidise during a long open boil? If not, why not? If so, is the
>>oxidation not much more significant that can be expected during the
>>other brewing stages?

>>What am I missing?

>Hmmm...  Yeah, what?  Certainly, hot wort is exposed to oxygen during a 
>long, open boil.  We're told that these are all the criteria (hot wort + O2)
>that cause oxidation, with all its consequences.  (Can't remember what they 
>are, but I remember being told to avoid it.)  So what gives?  Is this 
>another (God help us) "momily"?  

Well, *my* mom told me that boiling drives the oxygen out of wort. 
So even though there is oxygen in the air surrounding the wort, 
gasses are being expelled from the boiling liquid, not dissolved 
into it. Consequently, oxidation doesn't occur.

Mom Knows Best,
CR

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Date: Fri, 18 Oct 91 12:43 MTS
From: Chuck Coronella <CORONELLRJDS at CHE.UTAH.EDU>
Subject: My favorite porter

You know, I was thinking about my favorite recipe, and I think I've got it. 
But I should add that it's been my favorite for a relatively short time (just 
had my first bottle about a week ago.)  It seems like my favorite recipe 
changes frequently, almost as often as I brew. ;-)

Well, as CP says, enough shuck and jive, on with the recipe.


                              Rainy Day Porter

Ingredients:
      2 lb Alexander extract syrup (pale)
      4 lb Yellow Dog extract syrup (amber)
      1 1/4 lb Brown Sugar

      1/2 lb. Black Patent      |
      1/4 lb. Roasted Barley    |  Steeped at ~ 65 oC
      1/2 lb. Crystal (60 oL)   |   for ~ 40 minutes
      1/2 lb. Crystal (40 oL)   |    before boil
      1/4 lb. Chocolate Malt    |

      22 AAU (2 oz Nugget); 60 minutes boil
      3 oz Fresh Grated Ginger; 10 minutes boil
      1 oz Cascade; Steeped after boil for ~ 10 minutes

      Ale yeast (see below)
      3/4 cup corn Sugar (priming)

OG: 1.057
FG: 1.016

Details:  2 gallon, 60 minute boil.  After waiting for the steep, I used my 
newly constructed wort chiller to cool the 2 gallons down to around 35 oC.  
Racked off trub, added water to 5.3 gallons.  Pitched yeast.  Bottled after 
3 weeks.

I used two types of yeast pitched simultaneously for this brew.  One was 5 
g. (rehydrated) Doric Ale yeast, and the other was a "large" sample taken 
from a previous (cherry ale) brew a few weeks earlier, originally Whitbred 
Ale yeast.  {As a side note, it is interesting to note that this cherry ale 
is a prominent former favorite brew. ;-}  Fermentation started pretty quickly, 
if I remember right, about 6 - 12 hours.

This recipe started with one of CP's recipes from TCJoHB, what-the-hell-was-
it-called.  Obviously, this is a very heavy ale, almost like a stout.  I'd
liken the flavor to Sierra Nevada's porter, but heavier, a little sweeter,
and with (delicious) ginger.  After about 3 weeks in the bottle, it was,
uh, WOW!!! Delicious!!  What a combination of flavors!  I'd say that this
is the exactly correct amount of ginger for such a dark, heavy ale (for my
taste).  I've had (lighter) ales with too much ginger, but this was just
right. 

Cheers,
Chuck

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Date: Fri, 18 Oct 91 15:05:24 EDT
From: Curt Freeman <curtf at hpwart.wal.hp.com>
Subject: M&F Stout kit
Full-Name: Curt Freeman

I, like others couldn't resist Kinney Baughman's reviews of the Christmas
Ale recipe, so I bought the supplies. The Munton & Fison Stout kit comes
with a small ~4" long plastic tube of miniscule diameter. What is this
supposed to be for? A siphon tube for Barbie and Ken? Snorting M&F yeast? 

As others were praising SA Octoberfest, Tom Maszerowski-tcm at moscom.com
writes..
> About Sam Adams Octoberfest... I bought it this weekend and I was
> disappointed. Compared to some other fest beers I thought it was thin and
> lacked sufficient malt character. It seemed to me to be an attempt to
> appeal to the BudMiller drinker and not an emulation of a particular style.

My thoughts exactly, if not my words. Not a bad beer, but I feel SA Ales
are more worth my $'s.
 
- --
 Curt Freeman         | INTERNET curtf at hpwala.wal.hp.com



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Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1991 10:59 PDT
From: Bob Jones <BJONES at NOVA.llnl.gov>
Subject: Cleaning buckets & safety

>Karl Desch asks the question
>Does anyone know a good way to sanitize plastic fermenters?

I would suggest filing the bucket with gasoline and light 
it! If you are going to invest your personal time in brewing 
you should invest a little money in a glass carboy. I know 
some of you will say you have been fermenting for years in a 
plastic bucket and all your beers are GREAT. I would ask you 
how many awards have you won with your beers?  That's not to 
say you aren't brewing good beer if you aren't winning 
contests, I am saying that competitions are a good way of 
getting unbiased comments on your brewing efforts. Plastic 
buckets are good for first brews, but the critters will 
eventually take up residence in the plastic and their 
effects will dominate your best efforts. These effects are 
most noticeable in lighter flavored beers. So if you always 
brew Imperial Stouts these effects can be masked depending 
on your luck and the phase of the moon. 
In regard to Ken Weiss's comment on brewing safety  I would 
add that I see a lot of brewers with jury rigged stands for 
supporting 15 gal kegs used for kettles. Think about Ken's 
experience magnified 1000 times.  California brewers should 
also think about the possibility of experiencing an 
earthquake while brewing! I don't think the safety aspects 
of brewing are emphasized enough!

Bob Jones



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Date: Fri, 18 Oct 91 13:36:24 -0600
From: burghart at stout.atd.ucar.EDU
Subject: Re: Sir Digby's mead

Jacob Galley (gal2 at midway.uchicago.edu) quotes from Sir Digby on the 
making of mead:

> and if you will clarifie the Liquor with a few beaten whites 
> of Eggs, it will be the clearer. The rule of it's being boiled 
> enough is, when it yieldeth no more scum, and beareth an Egge, 
> so that the breadth of a groat is out of the water.

Just a guess here, but it seems to me that the two egg procedures involved
here are separate.  First, the use of beaten egg whites to help clarify the
boil.  I would guess that "floaters" in the boil would stick to the egg
froth, making them easier to remove, hence a clearer Liquor.  The second
procedure sounds like it involves a whole egg, in the shell, and that the idea
is to provide a gravity measurement.  When the Liquor "beareth an Egge, so
that the breadth of a groat is out of the water", you've boiled down to the
correct specific gravity.  Any biologist/historians out there who could find
the density of an egg and the thickness of a groat and figure out what that
gravity would be? 

Chris Burghart
burghart at ncar.ucar.edu
National Center for Atmospheric Research

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Date: Fri, 18 Oct 91 15:53:04 EDT
From: tighe at inmet.camb.inmet.com (Michael Tighe)
Subject: Kenhelme Digbie's "Eggs"


The egg was used as a primitive hydrometer (hygrometer?) - i.e. a way to
tell what the specific gravity of the liquid is....  Most of Digby's 
recipies use the floating egg as a way of determining when enough of the 
water has been boiled off.  You can achieve the same result by adding 
more honey (obviously).

I believe Digbie boiled  for longer times and used egg-whites to clarify
his mead - remember that he is probably using "raw honey", which still
has bits of wax and bee-parts floating in it.  Most of the "scum which 
riseth" is probably pollen and wax.  If you don't skim it it leaves a
cloudier drink and often leaves a dull taste/covering on the tongue.

Try the "weak-honey-drink" (p 147?) which has 9 parts water to one part honey
and uses ginger root and the peel of a (lemon/lime?).  Its my favorite.


Michael Tighe
Intermetrics Microsystems Software Inc.
Cambridge, MA 02138 (USA)
email: tighe at inmet.inmet.com                  

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Date: Fri, 18 Oct 91 13:49:32 PDT
From: ssi!ssiwest!resii at uunet.UU.NET (Rob Strout)
Subject: Extract Analysis: which issue?

Can someone point me to the HBD issue number that contained the 
analysis of malt extracts?  

	--Resii
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
resii (aka, Robert E. Strout II)
Supercomputer Systems, Inc.				uunet!ssi!resii
2021 Las Positas Ct, Suite 101, Livermore, CA 94550	(415) 373-8000
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Date: Fri, 18 Oct 91 13:50:20 PDT
From: grumpy!cr at uunet.UU.NET (C.R. Saikley)
Subject: Where There's Smoke....

Hey All,

Last night I was involved in a tasting that was really great, 
so I thought I'd share the experience.

We had a good group assembled. There was one professional brewer,
two excellent homebrewers (both national award winners), a reporter
from the Oakland Tribune, one from the NY Times, and two from the
Celebrator Beer News.

The theme was smoked beer. We had assembled all of the commercially
produced smoked beers known to the group. They came from the Rogue
Brewing Co., the Alaska Brewing Co., the Vermont Pub & Brewery, the 
Otter Creek Brewing Co., and the sole import, Rauchbier from Bamberg 
Germany. In addition, we had two smoked homebrews. There were four
porters, an ale, a bock, and a lager.

My overall impressions were that all of these beers were good (with
the possible exception of the Rauchbier). The smokey flavor adds a 
richness and complexity not present in other types of beer. Its bite 
complements the sweetness of the malt well. Some of the beers had no 
noticeable hop component, but if malt, hops and smoke were all present, 
the balance and interplay between the three flavors was intriguing. 

The Rogue was generally favored over the others. It had a woody flavor
that the others lacked. The homebrewed bock had the elements of a high
octane beer that fit well with smokiness. The Otter Creek didn't compare
too favorably, but in all fairness it had been Fed-Ex'd in earlier that
day and needed time to rest. Most agreed that the Rauchbier was overdone,
and tasted like carbonated liquid smoke. All of the American beers were
much more refined, which I found surprising given our penchant for excess.

Most of these beers are pretty hard to get, but if you do get the chance,
check 'em out.

Cheers,
CR

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Date: Fri, 18 Oct 91 09:36:43 MDT
From: pyle at intellistor.com (Norm Pyle)
Subject: Apricot, Spruce, Oxygen

To Michael Bass:

I've just brewed an apricot-ginger ale for my Christmas brew.  This recipe
calls for leaving the apricots in the brew during primary fermentation, as
you suggest.  That's the point I'm at now, so I'll have to let you know later
how it turns out.  BTW, I used a couple of pounds of canned apricots (with no
preservatives) and smashed them with a potato masher.  I also added them after
the boil as you did.

To James Smith:

I'd bottle the stuff.  If the gravity is still 1.016 after a week then it's
done.  I don't have any info on Cooper's yeast.   As far as avoiding a
plugged blowoff hose, it sounds like you filtered the wort on its way into
the primary.  That's all I do and I haven't had a problem.  I ferment in a
seven gallon carboy, though, so there is a lot more head space (I've never
gotten any blowout).  As far as economy homebrew, the upfront cost of
all-grain brewing is higher, but each batch is much cheaper.  I'd brew
several extract batches first.  There a loads of recipes in Papazian's book,
Miller's book, and even Reese's book.  Good Luck!

To Chuck Coronella:

It's my understanding that it is desirable to aerate the wort, not the beer.
This because the yeast needs oxygen in the reproduction stage.  After that,
the yeast drives off oxygen as it ferments the sugars.  I don't know the
details of oxidized beer, but it ain't good.  I try to aerate while I pour
the wort into the primary, then siphon quietly any time after that.  Flames
and real information are invited on this one. 8*)

Norm



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Date: Fri, 18 Oct 91 13:54:58 pdt
From: Brian Davis <brian%mbf.uucp at ics.uci.edu>
Subject: Orange County Brewclubs?

Does anybody know of any homebrew clubs in the Orange County, CA area?

Brian Davis
brian%mbf.uucp at ics.uci.edu

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Date: Sat, 19 Oct 91 09:27:06 PDT
From: Donald Oconnor <oconnor at chemistry.UCSC.EDU>
Subject: xmas lager

In HD 743 Mike Zulauf presented a Xmas lager recipe without much comment
apparently out of humility.  It is worth note that Mike's Xmas lager came
within an eyelash of being the Best of Show beer at the 1991 AHA 
national competition.  It did win in the Specialty Beer category.  The
details of the judging in the Best of Show and how close this beer came
to winning are described in the latest issue of Zymurgy.

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Date: 19 Oct 91 21:03:00 EDT
From: "STUART D LUMAN" <luman at vax001.kenyon.edu>
Subject: article

I am new to the Homebrew list, and I'd like to know if it is possible to take a
jug of normal Apple cider and by adding (Perhaps a certain special type of) 
yeast and waiting a certain amount of time, creating fermented cider? Thank
You. 


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #744, 10/21/91
*************************************
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