---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Brewing odors (Keith Morgan)
  Artichokes and beer (gkushmer)
  Homebrew transport (carr)
  INTIMIDATION (Jack Schmidling)
  Various items from #779 (darrylri)
  Re: New brews (to me...) (Dean Cookson)
  Foul odors (ingr!b11!mspe5!guy)
  Transporting Homebrew (BOEGE)
  old yeast (Russ Gelinas)
  Berliner Weisse / Sour mash (Aaron Birenboim)
  Reply to Flaming Sam Adams. (Greg_Habel)
  Crushed Mail Order (Tom Zepf)
  Boiling Over (Eric Pepke)
  Removing bottle labels (Kent Dinkel)
  Bucolic Brit Brewing Bladders (TSAMSEL)
  Sam Adams Cream Stout (JPJ)
  Sam Adams Brewery, Sam Adams Cream Stout
  Oxidation, odiferous brewing, barleysine and shipping. ("DRCV06::GRAHAM")
  Crushed Grain by Mail ("Rad Equipment")
  Crushed Grain by Mail                 Time:8:45 AM     Date:12/11/91
  Sam_Adams_Ads (AEW)
  bunratty meade (dave ballard)
  priming for American Light Lager? (adietz)
  Barleywines, shipping & ? (Jeff Frane)
  Re:  hazing on the digest (florianb)
  Re: What is cold break? (korz)
  grain cracking (florianb)
  grain brewing in the family (florianb)
  Copper (Bruce Mueller)
  Grainmills (korz)
  Places to buy beer (Darren Evans-Young)
  Priming with dry malt extract (korz)


Send submissions to homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
Send requests to homebrew-request@ hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
[Please do not send me requests for back issues!]
Archives are available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1991 08:52:19 -0500
From: morgan at dg-rtp.dg.com (Keith Morgan)
Subject: Brewing odors

My wife objects to the wonderful aroma of boiling malt & hops
(which is kinda strange, considering she's a chemist & occasionally
comes home reeking of some pretty weird odors!).  I invested in
a propane tank & burner and brew out back on my deck now.  This
might not work as well for those of you in colder climes, but 
here in the sunny south it's a joy to be outdoors stirring a
bubbling pot on most winter weekends.  Also, the propane burner
can bring my 7 gal. brewpot to a nice simmer lots faster than
the kitchen stove ever did.

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 11 Dec 91 9:00:28 EST
From: gkushmer at Jade.Tufts.EDU
Subject: Artichokes and beer


Last night I was eating an artichoke and drinking a Sam Adams Lager.  I
don't know why, but something about the artichoke enhances other flavors
of foods that I may be eating at the same time.  

This happened with the beer - I received the most delicious hops taste
after trying to wash some artichoke down.  Suddenly I wondered:

	How would artichoke taste in beer?

Anyone have any experience in this?  Any perceptions?  As I don't make
lager (no fridge) I'd have to make an ale or wait until spring when I
could use the temperate garage for lagering.

- --gk


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Date: Wed, 11 Dec 91 09:14:36 EST
From: carr at ascc01.att.com
Subject: Homebrew transport


Howdy,

	Regarding the transport of homebrew on commercial flights, I
have had some problems flying from here in North Carolina home to
Minnesota with homebrews in my carry-on. They stopped me at the xray
machine and asked me if those were bottles in my bag, to which I replied
"yes". They then asked me to take them out, and if they were beer,
to which I nervously answered "yes" again. At this point there are several
of them eyeing the plain brown bottles with liquid in them with the
mysterious bottle cap "Raleigh Brewing Co." (doesn't exist). They then
asked me if it was home-made beer and I began to play dumb and pretend
I didn't know what they were talking about, "can you really make beer 
at home?", and claim that a friend gave them to me. 

	I ended up weaseling out of it and they let me go, with the 
homebrew ( a couple bottles ). They said it was some law regarding
interstate taxes and that bringing home-made beer over state lines
was illegal. I don't know if this is a federal thing or just another
asinine North Carolina liquor law.

	Many guest at my wedding last spring received bottles of our
Wedding Weiss and had no trouble transporting it when they had it in
their checked-on baggage, instead of carrying them on. I also have 
gotten away with it in my carry-on by bringing homebrew bottles that
I left the original labels on, so that they look like commercial beer.

	I don't know about mailing homebrew, and am very curious as I
will be mailing xmas brew presents across the U.S. soon. Anyone with
experience in this willing to share?

Mike Carr
carr at ascc01.att.com

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Date: Wed, 11 Dec 91 07:58 CST
From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: INTIMIDATION

 
 To: Homebrew Digest
 Fm: Jack Schmidling
 
 
                     INTIMIDATION
 
 
 Now that the dust seems to have settled on the commercial 
 issue, I would like to point out that what was gained or 
 lost is more than meets the eye.
 
 Sure I sold some v----- (at a bargain price) but I also gave 
 enough away to make it a net loss.
 
 What is sad is that the ones I gave away were to people who 
 offered to post objective reviewS of the v-----.  
 Unfortunately, not a single commment has been heard from all 
 the freebies I sent out and I can only conclude that the 
 flames, so intimidated the "reviewers", that they are 
 affraid to say boo.
 
 So, in the final analysis, the real losers are the readers 
 of HBD.  Information flow ceases when the flame throwers 
 come out.
 
 js
 
 

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Date: Wed Dec 11 06:52:14 1991
From: darrylri at microsoft.com
Subject: Various items from #779


From: Dean Cookson <cookson at mbunix.mitre.org>
Subject: Re: New brews (to me...)
> An info point is that both beers are made by Catamount.  Last time
> I was up at the brewery in White River Junction they told us that
> Frank Jones, Post Road, and Bier de Guarde (sp?) are all brewed by
> them under contract.

As a point of interest, I understood that the Bier de Garde brewed at
the Catamount brewery was not brewed by the Catamount staff.  I hope
that one of the "in" east coasters will clarify this a bit.

From: ingr!ingr!b11!mspe5!guy at uunet.UU.NET
Subject: Foul odors
> Scott Welker writes:
> > Anyone out there love the smell of something they hate the taste of or
> > vice versa?
> 
>     I won't say it, I won't say it, I WON'T say it!  Whew, that was close.

Whatever can you mean? ;-)  Fortunately, I like both.  But in regards to
the aromas that eminate from the brewing process, a few notes.  First
off, my wife doesn't like beer, but she does like the aroma of making
beer, so I'm off the hook there.  (Still have to clean up after myself,
however.)  Next, I used to live two miles from the Van Nuys AB plant,
and I drove by it twice every day, and often on weekends.  I often would
get comments about how it smelled bad from passengers.  Curiously, I
could often turn them around by mentioning how it smelled like oatmeal
to me.  By reminding them of some familiar smell that they have happy
associations with (well, hopefully), I could influence their feelings
on the matter.  It seems that people often immediately believe that
anything they can smell is bad;  it is my belief that this kind of
thinking is responsible for the rise in bland lagers and dry beer.

From: <BOEGE%UORHEP.bitnet at CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject:  Transporting Homebrew
>         How long will bottled Barley Wine remain drinkable?  In Papazian's book
> there is a mention of 25 year aging periods.  If I were to seal a case of Barley
> Wine up in light-proof wrapping and store it in a closet, would it be vinegar,
> evaporated, or sentient when I opened it a year later?  2?  5?

There are, of course, many variables, but as a generalization, high
gravity (and therefore high alcohol) beers will last 2 years or more if
treated carefully:  cool temperatures and no light.  Good sanitation
procedures should obviate the first item in your list, good capping
practice the second, and I would only expect that the evolution process
to take more than a few years or else we all would have been overrun by
such beings long ago. ;-)  Seriously, I've had a vertical tasting of
Bigfeet (that sounds pretty bad, doesn't it?), and the 5 year old
version was clearly on the downward slope, but the three year old was
marvelous.

From: R_GELINAS at UNHH.UNH.EDU (Russ Gelinas)
Subject: old yeast
>   There's an article in the New York Times (Monday?), about Keith Thomas,
> an Englishman who cultured the dregs of a bottle of ale that was recovered
> from a ship which had sunk in the English Channel in 1825!!!!!  He's using
> it in a commercial porter (Flag Porter).  He also uses only organically
> grown malt, no pesticides, etc.  Sounds like quite a character.  Any of
> you HB'ers across the pond ever hear of the guy?

Michael Jackson mentioned this, but was concerned about how serious Mr.
Thomas (a co-Beer Writers Guild member with MJ) was about this yeast, as
he was only using it to "finish" the beer.  Seems that the yeast is
quite feeble and produces a variety of "interesting" esters;  it's too
weird (and too weak) to ferment out a batch by itself.  Jackson
suggested that this might be a grand marketing ploy, but did not deign
to rebuke it until he felt more certain about the matter.

		--Darryl Richman


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Date: Wed, 11 Dec 91 08:29:14 MST
From: abirenbo at rigel.hac.com (Aaron Birenboim)
Subject: Berliner Weisse / Sour mash


  i have seen a few postings about a sour mash thread....
somehow i have missed it.  perhaps one of my attempts to
get the following posted worked, but i keep on getting bounced
mail...

well....  heres my post.... AGAIN!
*****************************************************************8
    I plan to try to emulate Berliner Weisse, and have been asking around
for suggestions at to how to do this.

   It appears that Berliner Weisse can be emulated from a sour mashed
wheat beer recipe.  My recollection of general opinion is to use
stale hops.  Papazian suggests 1-2HBU.

  1)  Hops...  Can i make stale hops by just setting some nice
               leaf out in a bowl in my apt?  Shoule i keep the hops
               in the dark while aging?  I have some Mt. hood,
               alpha = 2.8, is this a good choice?
               Martin L.  sent a recipe using 2 oz. low
               alpha hops for the boil, PLUS a 2 OZ! finish.
               Unfortunately i have not has a berliner weisse
               for YEARS, and i do not remember the bitterness.
               I think it was low, so i will most likely
               go with the stale hops.

  3) Souring...Papazian suggests adding 1/2 lb malt to the mash
               AFTER the mash is complete and cooled to 130 F.
               Let this sit 15-24 hours and it should smell nice and
               putrid.  Then sparge and boil as usual.
               Martin L. said one Berliner-weisse like brew he
               liked pitched a buttermilk culture called Staph.
               Lacticus along with the yeast.  This scares me
               since the strength of the culture relative to my 
               yeast is an unknown, and it will be hard to control
               sourness.

               Another gentleman cultured the dregs from a bottle
               of Berliner Weisse, and got a nice sour flavor,
               plus the "white ring" sign of infection.
               I might try this, except that I CAN'T FIND ANY
               BERLINER WEISSE!  Does anybody know where i could
               Berliner Weisse in the denver area???
               BTW...  the fact that a sour beer resulted from
               simply culturing Berliner Weisse dregs seems
               to indicate that they actually do pitch souring
               bacteria (yeast??) into the beer AFTER the boil.
               However, i do not know if this will be the best
               method for a homebrewer.

               I have an idea to combine the two methods...
               After the mash cools to about 130F, throw in
               some whey from old sour cream.  This might be
               a better way to start souring than just adding
               cracked malt.

        Is there a way to know when to start sparging if i use
     the sour mash method?  I immagine that the souring might cause
     a drop in pH.  perhaps i will know that souring is complete
     after the pH drops a certain amount?


         Please let me know about your sour mash / Berliner Weisse
               experiences!

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 11 Dec 91 10:29:28 est
From: Greg_Habel at DGC.ceo.dg.com
Subject: Reply to Flaming Sam Adams.

In response to Paul Jasper's flame of Sam Adams, I have this to say:
Paul, you must admit Sam Adams Beers are at least 10 times better 
than any Bud, Coors, Miller etc product.  I personally am very 
delighted the SA beer exists.  I'm sure SA is partially responsible 
for getting people to try other non CoBudMilob beers.  If a 
CoBudMilob drinker tries SA and likes it, he may try Catamount, 
Anchor, or Sierra Nevada etc.  I'm definitely for any product that 
will open more minds to different beer styles.
As far as the advertising saying SA brews in weeks what the leading 
import brews in 3 hours, could it be they are referring to quantity 
(final output in 1 day because of the size of brewery).  I agree the 
ad may be misleading.  Paul, please UPS me any SA you do not wish to 
consume.  
Dry hopping:  I recently made a batch of German Pils.  I dry hopped 
half of the batch (1 oz of Saaz in cheese cloth in a keg for 7 days).
What a pleasant hop aroma!  For those of you who have not tried dry 
hopping, give it a go.  Definitely one of the best hop aroma beers 
I've made.  Mmmmmmm..  Time for a refill.




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Date: Wed, 11 Dec 91 08:38:24 MST
From: zepf at Central.Sun.COM (Tom Zepf)
Subject: Crushed Mail Order


I have ordered pre-crushed grains from William's and from Great
Fermentations of Santa Rosa. I've been pleased with the resulting beer
brewed from both sources. I've tasted the grains and they seem fresh
to me.

GFSR ships grains in a double paper bag, but the grains are very nicely
crushed and there isn't a lot of "flour". Because the bag is not air
(or moisture) tight, I feel better about brewing with it as soon as
possible. I'm pretty sure the grains are milled to order.

William's ships the grains in 1 lb. sealed plastic bags. The grains
usually contain a little "flour", but I don't think any husks are
involved as I haven't detected any unusual husky or tannin notes.  I
would guess that William's crushes in batches, but the plastic bags
probably do a pretty good job of protecting the grain. I've kept the
William's grain down in my basement for over an month and brewed with
it with no detectable problems.

I'm hoping to get a Carona for Christmas so I don't have to make beer
with ingredients in 1 lb. increments.

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Date:    Wed, 11 Dec 1991 10:41:19 -0500 (EST)
From: PEPKE at SCRI1.SCRI.FSU.EDU (Eric Pepke)
Subject: Boiling Over

When you boil wort, at least two things happen:

1) The water turns to steam, whose vapor pressure exceeds the atmospheric
   pressure.
2) Dissolved oxygen and other gases are driven off.

In my experience, the dissolved gases are responsible for most boilovers.  
Unlike steam, which tends to form in large bubbles around local hot spots 
and nucleation sites, the dissolved gases come out as small bubbles in many
places at once.  The small bubbles are better at making the foam that 
causes most boilovers.

Fortunately, once the gases have been driven off, there is much less 
problem.  If you do extract brewing, you can boil all your brewing water 
before adding the extract.  If you do all-grain brewing, it's much more 
difficult--even if you are very careful to keep the hot runoff from 
splashing, it will still absorb a fair amount of oxygen.  The solution is
to be very careful about adding heat when it starts to fizz.  This is 
better for the flavor, too, as you don't really want the oxygen reacting
very much with the other stuff in the wort.

Eric Pepke                                     INTERNET: pepke at gw.scri.fsu.edu
Supercomputer Computations Research Institute  MFENET:   pepke at fsu
Florida State University                       SPAN:     scri::pepke
Tallahassee, FL 32306-4052                     BITNET:   pepke at fsu

Disclaimer: My employers seldom even LISTEN to my opinions.
Meta-disclaimer: Any society that needs disclaimers has too many lawyers.


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Date: Wed, 11 Dec 91 09:55:34 mst
From: Kent Dinkel <dinkel at hpmtaa.lvld.hp.com>
Subject: Removing bottle labels
Full-Name: Kent Dinkel

There have been a few discussions about removing labels from bottles.  I
soak my bottles overnight in the bathtub or large bucket with ~ 1/2 cup of
borax.  The next morning, most of the labels are floating in the tub.
Those that aren't already floating peel off pretty easily.  Applying a
*little* elbow grease with an abrasive sponge easily removes any residual
glue and/or label from the bottles.

I can't say that this works for all bottle and labels -- I primarily use
Bud long-neck bar bottles (pretty sturdy suckers available at .05$/bottle
from the local liquor store) and Grolsh bottles.

The bottles aren't sanitary yet, but I won't be mistaken for serving Bud to
my friends!

Kent (dinkel at hpmtaa.lvld.hp.com)

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Date:    Wed, 11 Dec 1991 12:11:20 -0500 (EST)
From: TSAMSEL at ISDRES.ER.USGS.GOV
Subject: Bucolic Brit Brewing Bladders

  Well, I saw this last night at our local Y-person culinary boutique.
Axbridge Brew Sacks. Built to look like a Thomas Hardian "hopsack" with
antique printing/pictorial and a PLASTIC tap that's sposed to look like
*wood*. Snarl, and they are selling many of them.
  At least i think it was called Axbridge. And it was a no-boil kit, too.
  Ted

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Date: 11 Dec 91 13:21:49 EST
From: JPJ at b30.prime.com
Subject: Sam Adams Cream Stout

Subject:  Sam Adams Brewery, Sam Adams Cream Stout

Greeting, HB's...

I recently went on a tour of the Sam Adams Brewery -- I highly recommend
this tour!  I found out quite a bit about their brewing processes, as well
as sampling their lager, ale, and lightship on tap -- as if I don't know
what they taste like, but free beer is free beer, and Oh, is Sam
good on tap *)

After leaving the Sam Adams brewery, we made our way somewhat carefully
through the friendly streets of Jamaica Plain to a local pub called
Doyle's.  Doyle's, as well as another pub whose name escapes me right
now (also in G. Boston) has the distinction of being the first to be
able to sell Sam Adams products before the general public can get its
hands on them.  So, it was my great fortune to be able to sample, on
tap, Sam Adams Cream Stout.  The rep at the brewery said they're still
working on it, but I think it's perfect.  Smooth, flavorful, and only
3.25 a pint...  They also had some Cranberry Lambic on tap, but it was
not as good as the 6-pack version.  If you get a chance, make a trip
down to Doyle's (preferably during the day) and sample this great brew.

For those of you unable to make the trip, I guess you'll just have to
wait 8(


+----------------------------------------------+
|   Jim Jedrey    (JPJ at B30.PRIME.COM)          |
|   Portsmouth, NH                             +---------------------+
|   Bud is Mud, Coors is Poor, and Schlitz is... well, you know...   |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+


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Date: 11 Dec 91 11:22:00 EDT
From: "DRCV06::GRAHAM" <graham%drcv06.decnet at drcvax.af.mil>
Subject: Oxidation, odiferous brewing, barleysine and shipping.

Oh well, I can't correct the subject line typo.  Actually, barleysine is a 
type of audio output filtered through a high gravity beer. [grin]

Oxidation.

I have tasted oxidized beer and try to avoid it at all costs.  I was musing 
on the cask conditioning of British Bitters, and began to wonder how they 
avoid oxidation of the beer in the cask after the cask is no longer full.  
I mean, the stuff might be around for a few days.  Any thoughts?

Brewing Smells.

My wife dislikes the odors associated with brewing, too.  She has found 
that a bottle of *very* good wine will keep her calm during the process.  
My cost per bottle just went up!  [wide grin]

Keeping Barleywine.

Don't worry about aging that barleywine.  It will last for years.  

Shipping.

I have spoken with the Burequ of Alcohol, Tabacco and Firearms a couple of 
times and they assure me, and read to me from the regs, that it is NOT 
illegal to ship alcohol via UPS, or any other non-Postal Service carrier.  
The Postal Service is not allowed to ship it, but there is absolutely no 
law that would forbid any other carrier from doing so.  Virtually all of 
the carriers say they will not ship it except from one dealer to another.  
Of course, you don't have to tell them what's in the (well, very well 
packed) box.  I have discovered that the airlines will ship alcohol, but at 
a dear price.

This B.S. of UPS and others not carring our homebrew is stupid.  I urge a 
letter writing campaign to their corporate offices.  I'll try to get an 
address.

Dan Graham


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Date: 11 Dec 91 09:15:56 U
From: "Rad Equipment" <rad_equipment at rad-mac1.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Crushed Grain by Mail

Subject:  Crushed Grain by Mail                 Time:8:45 AM     Date:12/11/91
CR asks:
>Perhaps someone out there has identified a good source
>for mail order precrushed malt. Anyone???

When I was doing extracts with the odd addition of specialty malt I bought mine
from William's Brewing in San Leandro, CA.  They seal all their perishables in
sturdy plastic bags.  Their crush was very nice and the quality of the grains
are good.  For small quantities like this they are a fine choice.  I cannot
speak on their wares for all-grain batches.

I expect that a corona mill would be a better way to go for the isolated
brewer, unless you can find a mail order house who will bundle your grains into
your specific recipe and then grind and ship for 24 hour delivery (which would
be expensive, yes?).  The $45 for the mill would be paid for by the better
price reflected in large volume grain purchases.

RW...


      Russ Wigglesworth              CI$:      72300,61
|~~|  UCSF Medical Center            Internet: Rad Equipment at RadMac1.ucsf.edu
|HB|\ Dept. of Radiology, Rm. C-324  Voice:    415-476-3668 / 474-8126 (H)
|__|/ San Francisco, CA 94143-0628


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Date: 11 Dec 91 14:07:06 EST
From: AEW at b30.prime.com
Subject: Sam_Adams_Ads


In HBD #779 paul at melody.Rational.COM (Paul Jasper) writes:
> Well, there you have it, then...  This sounds just like the rest of the
> utter nonsense that Jim Koch talks in his radio adverts.  Like where
> he claims Sam Adams brews in weeks what "the leading import" brews in
> "three hours".  As homebrewers we must all know that no one can
> possibly brew anything in as little as three hours.
This ad also confused me a little when I first heard it, but last
Saturday when I toured the brewery (Great tour!) the tour guide made
this statement using his own words and the meaning of it came clear.
What Jim Koch is referring to it the total volume of beer produced
by his breweries in a year compared to the volume of beer produced
by (still unnamed) major Brewer in 3 hours. I don't think he is
claiming anything about the time it takes to make any particular
batch.

Paul also writes:
> He also talks about how they won first prize at the GABF three years
> in succession as if these were the most recent three, neglecting to
> mention that the last time was in 1986 (or maybe 1987, depending on whether
> my memory serves me correctly).
According to the tour guide at the brewery, Sam Adams didn't submit
an entry after winning three years straight in order to give other
(smaller/home) brewers a chance at the award. The following year
they did enter and win again, afterwards the award was phased out
for the new GOLD/SILVER/BRONZE medal system. Not only has Sam Adams
beer won three times in a row, but _EVERY_ time it has entered that
catagory.

Paul Continues:
> Since hearing Jim's advertising campaign, I've actually been avoiding
> drinking Samuel Adams beers.  Having my intelligence insulted in this
> way certainly does not endear me to his company or their products...
I personally enjoy the Sam Adams ads here in Boston, Jim has such a
sence of humor that he modifies the ads for local appeal. In one ad
he even changes the familliar phrase to: 'With a head so thick you
can float Mark Parento on it.' (Mark Parento is a local D.J.) Even
if I didn't like the commercials, It seems a shame to let this stop
me from enjoying Sam Adams or any other fine Microbrewery beer. It
certianly beets drinking MilBudiken just because their ads lack
character and therefore don't offend anyone.

I am in no way affiliated with the Boston Beer Company. (Brewers of
Sam Adams brand beers)

If you do not agree with my views, please direct response to the
below e-mail address and save the HBD the flane war.
===============================================================================
Allan Wright Jr.            | Pole-Vaulters Get a Natural High!
Seabrook, NH                +--------------------------------------------------
Internet: AEW at B30.PRIME.COM | These are my words only, drifting through time...
===============================================================================



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Date: 11 Dec 1991  13:00 EST
From: dab at pyuxe.cc.bellcore.com (dave ballard)
Subject: bunratty meade


Hey now-  Has anyone tried Bunratty Meade?  I was leafing through a copy
of the Irish Echo and came upon an add for the stuff.  It says it's 
made from white wine, honey, and herbs and has an alcohol content 
of 14.7% (didn't say volume or weight, I assume volume).  I called the
distributor for more info and spoke with a very nice woman who said
they are based in NJ and that they've been selling the stuff as quick
as they can get it from Ireland (it's produced at Bunratty Castle).  There's
two choices of bottles: a standard glass one and a really nice looking
white stone bottle that has the label fired onto it.

I should have my hands on some by the weekend, so I'll give a report next
week.  If you want to call on your own, the number is 1-800-4-CAMELOT.


iko-
dab

========================================================================
dave ballard			       "Maybe you had too much too fast"
dab at pyuxe.cc.bellcore.com
========================================================================



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Date: 11 Dec 1991  13:11 EST
From: afd at hera.cc.bellcore.com (adietz)
Subject: priming for American Light Lager?

I've got this batch of weasel water that turned out surprisingly well, but
now it's ready for bottling.  This is a brew designed *especially* for
those Bud drinkers back home at xmas - so I DO NOT want to alter the lovely
absence of flavor.  

Would rather not use corn sugar (I've done side by side comparisons of 
corn sugar and krauseueuaudusned beers.  Krauseueuaudusning wins.).
So, to minimize flavor alterations as much as possible, what's the most
likely candidate for priming?

 -A Dietz
Bellcore, Morristown
"Clean, no aftertaste postings."

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Date: 11 Dec 91 14:52:53 EST
From: Jeff Frane <70670.2067 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Barleywines, shipping & ?

Steven Boege asks about aging barleywines. Curiously, last night I split a nip
of Thomas Hardy with Liz. The beer was of 1986 vintage. I drank one bottle that
year: awful! tasted just like cough syrup. I drank one bottle in 1989 or 1990
and it was definitely better. Last night's was superb, wonderfully rich and
complex. Virtually no carbonation, which has been true of other British
barleywines I've tasted. I also have bottles of 1985 Old Foghorn, 1989 Old
Knucklehead, and 1988 Blind Jack (mine own). I sample all of these from time to
time; while still very good, none have changed as dramatically as the Thomas
Hardy. (As memory serves, the TH is about OG 1114, all pale malt, with two kinds
of hops, two yeast additions during fermentation and one at bottling. I
guarantee from my tasting that the beer was very sweet when it went into the
bottle but it definitely dries out over time.)

Also in answer to Boege: that very case of Old Foghorn I'm still into came back
from San Francisco on the plane in 1985. I know of other homebrewers that have
brought cases of beer with them in the luggage compartment without adverse
effects. When I have to ship beer (either commercial or homecrafted) I pack them
in a very sturdy box, lined with a garbage bag in case of leakage. My best
packing material turned out to be some heavy cardboard tubes found at work (not
unlike big solid toilet paper rolls). The box usually has a piece of styrofoam
on the bottom, then the bottles are slid down into vertical tubes and stuffed at
the top with newspaper. More newspaper or styrofoam chips (if available) are
stuffed all around the tubes and across the top of the whole shebang. I ship via
UPS and either send it through the mailroom here at work (UPS never asks them
what's in the boxes), or tell the UPS clerk it's perishable food. If asked if it
contained alcohol, I would lie.

To Jack Schmidling: Are you under the assumption that 150 degrees of heat will
kill many microorganisms, other than yeast? Remind me not to eat any of your
home-canned foods. !! CAN WE GET SOME DATA FROM GEORGE FIX HERE!!! GEORGE, HOW
ABOUT SOME DOPE ON WORT SPOILAGE, ETC.?? if you've got the time.

To Jay Hersh: (I'm going to have to start keeping copies of my beer texts here
at work!) As *my* memory serves, the decoction mash *does* call for boiling the
mash section, not just bringing it to a boil. I have to admit that decoction
mashing never made much sense: most are two or three-step decoctions and while
it's true that you never boil more than one-third of the mash at a time, how do
you know it's the same one-third (bloody unlikely) and that you won't somehow
destroy all the enzymes? Nevertheless, it works. I did it twice deliberately,
the second time using something the Germans developed in the 30's with a
typically long and complicated name, basically meaning short hot mash--for light
lagers. (I also did it once because the Bruheat died and I needed another way of
raising the temperature of the mash: a problem not unlike the original brewers
who developed the system). Some of these damn things, like the triple decoction
used in Pilsen, go on for twelve hours or so. Noonan's argument in favor of
decoction is based on (as I recall) two arguments: 1. An increase in extract,
which was something like 1 or 2 points better with decoction than infusion
(whooee!) and 2. a highly-disputable contention that "true" lager flavor can
only come from decoction. (Ha!)

Dr. John: UC Davis' Michael Lewis (beerguru) not only claims that one can do a
single-step infusion of Klages but that any homebrewer who tries to do anything
else is a fool. Lewis' contention is that accurate temperature changes are
impossible for a homebrewer to achieve consistently, so why bother?... Lewis'
opinions aside, I know from experience and from watching microbreweries that it
is possible and that it will produce a good beer. For me, the problem with
Klages is not in conversion or in chill hazes, but in getting any malt profile
out of the stuff. I would stronly recommend using an addition of CaraPils and
some caramel malt. 

JPaul: Without being able to translate the damn things (your attempts sounded
fine to me), I'd suggest the language was Flemish. I don't think there's a
language called "Belgian", but recall that the country is divided into French
and Flemish language groups. A truly weird country, really, as one can tell by
drinking their beer.

 


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Date: Wed, 11 Dec 91 12:33:58 PST
From: florianb at chip.cna.tek.com
Subject: Re:  hazing on the digest

No pun intended.

Yesterday, Al Taylor said:

>Your unwillingness to share your ideas and innovations because
>you might not get rich shows everyone that you are just an arrogant guy
>who brews beer, not THE GREATEST HOMEBREWER IN THE WORLD.

to Jack SomeThingOrOther who has a grain mill he designed himself.

I am one of the original contributors to this digest and have been delighted
over the years to see it remain a friendly atmosphere.  These kind of
comments you sent over the air are completely uncalled for.  Maybe he's
right, and maybe he's not.  SO WHAT?  If the two of you were locked
together in a room with a certain amount of home brew, you would likely
agree on most anything.  Let's keep it friendly, pleae?


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Date: Wed, 11 Dec 91 14:43 CST
From: korz at ihlpl.att.com
Subject: Re: What is cold break?

Recently, I received a question via email that may be of interest to
other beginners.  The question was "what is cold break?"

First of all, there's no reason to avoid posting naive questions
to the HBD.  Have you ever seen a post like: "well, that was a dumb
question..."  Of course not.  So don't be afraid.  If you've got a
question, probably 25+ other people have the same question... there's
over 1000 subscribers to HBD and a large number of them are beginners.

On to your question.  Cold break is two things which are related:

1) the "trub" (pronounced TROOB and meaning beer-related sediment)
that forms when you cool your sweet wort after boiling (i.e. "you
should rack your beer off the cold break"), and

2) the "process" or "stage" of the brewing process during which this
sediment comes out of solution (i.e. "I had an incredible cold break").

The yeast that sinks to the bottom of the fermentor when it dies or runs
out of sugar and goes dormant is also trub, so there's two sources for
trub: 1) the cold break and 2) the yeast that comes out of solution.
Trub may also contain some fermentation byproducts, but I'll leave that
to others to post.

What's in cold break?  Well, I'm not a chemist and have not researched
this too much, but I believe that it is mostly proteins and product of
tannins reacting with proteins.  The tannins are from the husks of the
grains.  They are why you should never boil grains and why oversparging
(sparging is the process of pouring hot water over your mashed grains
to extract the sugars -- too much of this or too hot a sparge water and
you extract too much of the tannins from the husks) is discouraged.

Why get rid of it?  Off flavors are one reason -- I noticed an definate
improvement in my beer since starting to use a wort chiller and part
of that improvement is no doubt due to my leaving most of the cold
break in the kettle.  (Another reason for the improvement is the fact
that I no longer pour the HOT wort into the fermenter -- I wait for it
to cool.  This reduces oxidation and got rid of the sherry-like flavor
in my beer.  Another reason to get rid of your cold break is to minimize
chill haze in your final product.  Chill haze is the product of tannins
and proteins which becomes visible only when you chill the beer.  Notice
that the quick chilling of the wort does exactly that and then you leave
it behind in the kettle.

One final note, the quicker you chill, the better the cold break (the more
cold break (trub) you create).  

One way to get cold break and to cool your wort without a wort chiller, is
to use ice.  I used to do this before I built a chiller.  I would boil
4 gallons of tapwater on the previous day and then fill up four plastic
milk jugs and put them in the fridge.  The morning of the brewing, I
would move one into the freezer.  8 hours later, the freezer jug would be
partly frozen.  I would boil the extract in only 2 gallons of water and
then after the boil, pour the icewater into the kettle.  This gave me a
pretty good cold break.  One chilled, boiled gallon in the fermenter
followed by the (now 80F) wort and then topped off by more chilled,
boiled water.  The improvement you get from this procedure will inspire
you to build a chiller.  It did for me.  Note that when you go to full
(5 gallon) boils, you will get an improvement in hop-oil extraction because
your boil will be of a lower specific gravity.

Al.

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Date: Wed, 11 Dec 91 13:04:34 PST
From: florianb at chip.cna.tek.com
Subject: grain cracking

The subject has been tossed back and forth about milling.

Goshums, geewhilikers!  At $10 per can, extracts are pretty expensive.
At 80 cents a pound for grain, after about 8 brewings with all-grain
the differential pays for the mill!  Save up your pennies and buy a
Corona grain mill--that's my advice.  I got mine from a second hand 
store in a little town, but even at $45 new, it's not a bad deal.  I
couldn't do without it now.

Florian


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Date: Wed, 11 Dec 91 12:57:53 PST
From: florianb at chip.cna.tek.com
Subject: grain brewing in the family

The question came up on how to grain brew without interruptions and still
maintain a family.

I am married to a wonderful woman, have a daughter 4.5 and a son 1.5, 
and have been all-grain brewing for several years.  Maybe I can advise.

First, it helps if your spouse likes good beer and doesn't mind the smell.
Of course if you have kids, the smell of beer brewing is lovely compared
to the smell coming from the back seat of the car on any extended trip.

Second, you need to be set up for all-grain brewing.  Have the right
equipment and plenty of room in the kitchen.  A nice big brew pot is
*mandatory*, as well as a grain mill or some source of pre-cracked grains.
A rolling pin doesn't cut it if you are concerned with time.  Also, use
hop bags to avoid problems with siphoning the wort.

Third, you have to get your method down.  I was disappointed to see how
long it took to do all-grain brewing in the beginning.  This was before
I figured out how to largely reduce certain portions of the brewing time.
Now, I can start an all-grain batch at 2:00 pm and have it finished by
7:00 pm.  This, even taking time out for certain activities while the
kids are napping in the afternoon...

Now what are these methods?  I use a three-step process of mashing.
The method is based on Papazian's method, but with some condensations.
I dough-in with warm water, then add enough 130 F water right out of
the tap to bring the mash up to 122.  This remains for 30 minutes for
a protein rest, on the stovetop.  Next, I add sufficient boiling water
to bring the brew up to 155 F for the saccarification, which lasts
at least one hour, again on the stovetop (LO).  After this step, I
skip the mash-out (which never amounted to any difference for me
anyway).  I put 2 quarts/#  *boiling* water into the picnic cooler/
mash tun, then add the mash all at once.  I stir it and leave it
30 minutes.  A simple re-circulation of a gallon or so and the wort
comes out clear.  Then I run it all out at once, starting the boil
as soon as I have 3 or so gallons.  The boil takes 1.5 hours.
I also use a copper tube chiller.

Altogether, this process just doesn't take much more time than extract
brewing.  Honest!  But during the idle periods, I take the opportunity
to do family things, change my spark plugs, chop wood, go to town, or
whatever I like.  The timing just isn't that critical, so interruptions
aren't a big deal.

Finally, I have found that my 4.5-year-old is fascinated by the brewing
process.  I usually let her play in the grains as I am weighing them out.
She likes to stick Peter Pan, horses, or whatever underneath the grains
and pretend lots of stuff.  That's fine by me.  Now my 1.5-year-old son
is getting into the act, with spillage happening usually.  That's fine
too.  Kids are only young once.

Hope this helps.  One of these days, I plan to write a note on my
condensed all-grain process.  Just maybe, one of these days.

Florian


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Date: Wed, 11 Dec 91 14:01:21 PST
From: Bruce Mueller <mueller at sdd.hp.com>
Subject: Copper

I take offense (professionally) to non-chemists/toxicologists commenting about
such matters!  It's as bad as non-lawyers or non-doctors practicing those
disciplines.

To quote the eminent Merck Index regarding copper's toxicity:
  "Copper itself probably has little or no toxicity, although there are
  conflicting reports in the literature.  Soluble salts, notably copper sulfate,
  are strong irritants to skin, mucous membranes."

Now, as to cupric sulfate (form referred to above) pentahydrate (that means
it comes "packaged" in 5 water molecules), Merck gives the LD50 (the amount to
kill half the rats), oral, as 960 mg/kg.  For a 70kg (average male, big beer
belly means more, female typ. less), that would be 67 grams!  I dare say you'd
NEVER form a concentration anywhere near that high at any reasonable wort pH.
Now, if you acidified to pH 1 with mixed sulfuric/nitric or nitric/hydrochloric
acids, I'd be worried.  Suffice it to say your beer would taste absolutely
AWFUL way before you'd have any effects.  Besides, the copper would kill off
the yeast: little critters are MUCH more succeptible to copper than humans.

By the way, though unrelated to beer, bluestone, the common name for cupric
sulfate pentahydrate is a GREAT cure for really bad athlete's foot.  Talk to a
podiatrist about it.  It is irritating, but not nearly as bad as the fungus!

If my interchangable use of copper and cupric is annoying, sorry.  The current
recommended usage is copper(II); the old is cupric.  Merck goes way back, so
they use the old form.

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Date: Wed, 11 Dec 91 16:06 CST
From: korz at ihlpl.att.com
Subject: Grainmills

I remember faintly of someone who built a grain mill from an old
grocery store checkout conveyor.  That reminded me that a good
friend of mine (who, by the way, owes me a favor for all the homebrew
I've pumped into him!) works for a company that engineers custom
conveyor systems for industry.   The way he explained it once,
the systems are built from stock parts.  Maybe he would have some
leads on used conveyor parts or sources for new parts.  I'll ask
him.  Meanwhile, keep an eye out for store checkout conveyors on
sale!
Al.

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Date:         Wed, 11 Dec 91 16:16:40 CST
From: Darren Evans-Young <DARREN at UA1VM.UA.EDU>
Subject:      Places to buy beer

I'll be in the Bay area for the holidays.  I probably won't get a chance
to visit any brewpubs due to lack of transportation. What I'm looking for
is a place to buy fresh bottled beer, ie Sierra Nevada, Anchor beers, etc.
Does anyone know of a good store fairly close to Hercules, CA (East Bay)?
Last year when I was out there, I found some in a grocery store, but not
every grocery store had beers other than BudMiller. Also the age of the
beer there was questionable.  This is my big chance to taste these
wonderful beers as I can't get them in Alabama. Please help! :-)

Darren

*---------------------------------------------------------------------------*
| Darren Evans-Young                         Internet: DARREN at UA1VM.UA.EDU  |
| The University of Alabama                     Phone: (205)348-3988 / 5380 |
| Tuscaloosa, Alabama  35487-0346                      (205)348-3993 FAX    |
*---------------------------------------------------------------------------*

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Date: Wed, 11 Dec 91 17:07 CST
From: korz at ihlpl.att.com
Subject: Priming with dry malt extract

Jack writes:
>One of the problems I have found with dry extract is that 
>there is always some undisolved residue in the bottom of the 
>primer making me wonder what is in the last few bottles.

Putting dry extract in your priming bucket is not a good idea --
it is an invitiation for bacterial and wild yeast infection.
I believe that what the original poster meant was what I have
always done: boil the 1 or 1.25 cups of DME in 16 oz of water
to kill bacteria and wild yeasts.  Besides that, dry extract
does not dissolve easily in cold liquids, as you have already
found out.
Al.

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #780, 12/12/91
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