---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  culturing yeast (Frank Tutzauer)
  Zymurgy, Mash Out, Cider, Top vs. Bottom Yeast (MIKE LIGAS)
  What is Canadian 2-row? (Robert Bradley)
  airlines transport (DAMON_NOEL/HP0800_08)
  Kraeusening  (hays)
  re: howto keg (system)
  On Mashing & the Menage (Martin A. Lodahl)
  bottle fillers (Paul S R Chisholm)
  Re: Family discord (Paul S R Chisholm)
  Best size for counterflow chiller (Brian Capouch)
  flame Koch, not his beer (Russ Gelinas)
  Re: 'Fessin up (delayed video reviews) (Kevin L. McBride)
  Rolling Grain Mill, under $40 (adietz)
  size of digest (Fritz Keinert)
  Re: grainmill idea? (homer)
  distilled water and beer (Rick Larson)
  pasta mill (Donald Oconnor)
  Yeast in Space (Bob Jones)
  Carbonation and Grain Mills (Tom Dimock)
  avoiding bandwidth waste (krweiss)
  Iodophor Anyone? ("John Cotterill")
  Seattle Taverns (Geof Grogan 685-1711 )
  Re: Homebrew Digest #782 (December 16, 1991) ("Rob Schultz --- 7822 --- 225.4 Thorvaldson")
  Millling, Boiling, Bandwidth (Jack Schmidling)
  Re: pasta (grain) mills (larryba)
  re: my east coast visit, OOPS! (John Pierce)
  de-arf program, water quality ("John A. Palkovic")
  Aging (Ruth Mazo Karras)
  re: What makes top top or bottom bottom (Greg Roody - DTN 237-7122 - MaBell 508-841-7122  16-Dec-1991 1535)
  Re: Beer Places in Seattle [errata] (beng)
  Re: boil overs (Patrick_Waara.WBST129)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1991 13:15 EST
From: Frank Tutzauer <COMFRANK at ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu>
Subject: culturing yeast

In HBD 781, Eric Mintz asks to start a discussion about yeast culturing.  I've
finally read the yeast special issue of zymurgy, and I'd like to second his
suggestion.  From my own standpoint, I would like to build up a collection of
various yeasts that I can use as needed.  Although cost is one consideration,
my main reason for wanting to do this is that my only source of liquid yeast
is mail order and I'm tired of having to coordinate brewing around shipping
concerns.  So far, I have cultured yeast from the bottom of my own bottles,
but:  (a) I don't want to push it past one or two generations, and (b) if I
want to drink that last bottle but I'm not ready to brew then I'm S.O.L.  :-)

So...I'm considering two options.  First, slants, agar, and petri dishes, as
detailed in several of the zymurgy articles; and, second, a yeast bank
involving glycerin (?) and sticking the yeastie boys in the deep freeze.  I
know a lot of you use slants, but does anyone have experience with the yeast
bank?  The cost seems reasonable.  Alternative Beverages sells a yeast bank
for about 6$ (U.S).  The kit comes with 5 culture tubes, 4 ounces of "freeze
shield", an eye dropper, and a storage container.  Additional freeze shield
and culture tubes are available.  I don't know much about chemical glassware,
but I suspect the petri dishes, etc., would cost a bit more.

Some more questions:

1.  How does the yeast bank compare to slants, etc.
2.  What's a good source of innoculation loops, agar, etc., for non-chemists?
3.  How long can the cultures in the various systems be kept?
4.  How many batches do you get out of one strain?
5.  How much refridgerator/freezer space is needed?
6.  In either system, does the yeast degrade/improve over time?
7.  What problems/pitfalls have you encountered?  What advantages?

I thank you and my yeast thank you.
- --frank


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Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1991 10:52 EDT
From: MIKE LIGAS <LIGAS at SSCvax.CIS.McMaster.CA>
Subject: Zymurgy, Mash Out, Cider, Top vs. Bottom Yeast

> From: John S. Link <link at prcrs.prc.com>
> Subject: Zymurgy gadget issue
> A question for those of you who have purchased the Zymurgy special
> issue "Homebrewers and their gadgets".  Did you find it useful?  By
> participating in Homebrew, have I already read about all the 
> 'gadgets' that they cover in this issue?
> How about the grain issue?  I'm currently an extract with 'grain tea'
> brewer but want to venture into all grain soon.  Is it a 'must read'?

I really liked the gadjets issue but I find that I personally get the most use
out of the yeast issue. The grain issue is also informative but I wouldn't say
it is a 'must read'.

> From: R_GELINAS at UNHH.UNH.EDU (Russ Gelinas)
> Subject: cold break, mash out
> Florian (with the great family attitude!) said he doesn't mash out.  I've
> never mashed out either, but was wondering if maybe I should.  I suppose if
> you are trying for an exact OG/FG then it might matter, but I'm not all
> that concerned.  Should I be?

No. I never mash out and never have problems.

> From: sag5004 at yak.boeing.com (Ford Prefect)
> Subject: Bad Apples
> I have made an attempt at apple cider.  I pressed a whole mess of apples
> and created about 10 gal. of cider.  Aprox 3 gal went to instant consumption
> (it was really good).  And the remaining 7 gallons went into a couple
> of carboys.  I added ale yeast (i think Whitbred), yeast nutrient, ??? acid
> and couple of other things that the guy at the beer supply shop told me to.
> ..... real beer I kegged this stuff too, as the gravity was almost 1.008 or 
> so.  I had a taste at this time and it tasted like vinegar (blech!)
> The guy at the shop mentioned som sort of sucrose that might help.  
> Sorry about the ramblin' but here is my question.  Is there any thing
> I can do to save this stuff?  I had hopes of being able to have a 
> nice glass of hard cider sometime this winter.  If saving this stuff
> is hopeless does anybody know what to do with ~7gal of apple vinegar? 

Young fermented cider is usually very tart due to its acidity (you don't need
to add acid crystals). It is unlikely to be vinegar-like from the activities
of acetobacter at this early in the game. Acetobacter spoilage results primarily
from the conversion of ethanol to acetic acid and therefore must occur after
fermentation. Spoilage is also a slow process unless you deliberately innoculate
your beer/wine/mead with a high titre of acetobacter. It's probably worth your
while to save your cider and see what it is like in 3 months. I also
noticed that you did not include a sulfite treatment of your cider 24 hours
prior to pitching the yeast. Judicious sulfiting is good insurance against
microbial contamination of ciders and wines and will circumvent acetobacter
problems.

> From: Mike Dobres <DOBRES%DUVM at pucc.PRINCETON.EDU>
> Subject:      What makes top top or bottom bottom
> Just curious-What makes top fermenting yeast float more than bottom fermenting
> yeast? Perhaps someting to do with cell/cytoplasmic density or C02 retained by
> cell - I dunno - Any ideas?

A good question and the answer may at first seem contrary to simple logic.
Ale yeast flocculate (stick together in multicellular aggregates) much more
efficiently than lager strains. This is due to their bearing a higher
concentration of various cell surface adhesion molecules, the details of which
are unimportant. One would think that larger cell aggregates would fall out of
suspension faster and settle to the bottom, but that would only be true when
the liquid is still. The turbulence produced during active fermentation moves
the yeast through the beer and as ale yeast aggregates it forms a sticky yeast
mass which can cling together at the surface of the beer producing a luxurious
thick yeast foam. Hence the description "top fermenting". This phenomenon of
aggregated material being pushed to the surface by turbulence where it
aggregates further is also seen during the boiling of your wort when the
proteinaceous scum forms.

Although what I described above is generally true for ale versus lager yeast
the top vs. bottom fermenting delineation is not an accurate one to employ in
defining an ale versus a lager. Many ale strains exhibit varying degrees of
flocculation and the same applies to lager strains. What is more important in
our definition is the temperature at which the fermentation takes place. Lagers
are fermented cold (40-55F) and aged colder (32-40F) and ales are fermented at
warmer temperatures (60-70F). The levels of products (esters, acetaldehyde,
phenols, diacetyl) of fermentation which account for much of the personality of
a given beer style are strongly affected by the temperature of fermentation.
Irregardless of extent of flocculation, lager yeast are more active at lower
temperatures.

				- Mike -


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Date: Fri, 13 Dec 91 18:10:25 -0500
From: bradley at adx.adelphi.edu (Robert Bradley)
Subject: What is Canadian 2-row?

(Sung to the tune of 'Poor Lonesome Cowboy':)
  I'm a poor lonesome Hoser and a long way from home....

Does anybody know what Canada Malting's 2-row malt is?  In recent
private correspondence, Dr. John described Klages to me as "2-row with
the enzymatic properties of 6-row".  This seems to describe the stuff I
brewed with back in the good ol' days when I was still living in
Toronto.  You used to be able to get 100 lb. bags in quantity >= 6 at
the Canada Malting plant for $29 a pop, and Jake McKay sold 'em in
quantity 1 for $36 at Fuggles and Goldings (does anybody out there know
how Jake is and if F&G is still in business?).  I understand that the
breweries used to use the self-same stuff.  This would have been a good
thing for corn-brews like Blue (reputed to be 44% corn!), but Viv Jones,
then brewmaster of Upper Canada, complained in 1988 that the stuff was 
_too_enzymatic_ (!!!) and that UC was having to use some imported stuff
in order to keep the final gravity up.

So my question: is CM 2-row Klages? Partly or completely?
And does anyone know where a poor expatriate banished to the wilds
of Long Isalnd could find some, even if it's not at the incredible
price of .29/lb?  (How much is that in _real_ money?)

By the by, I almost always used a one-step infusion mash with the stuff.
(I seem to recall Viv Jones saying Upper Canada did the same.)  I
never got a haze at room temperature, but chill haze was sometimes a
problem.  On the other hand, I sometimes got chill haze with a 
step- mash, so I can't reject the null hypothesis.

In #781, Jack Schmidling says:
> it took an hour to bring the mash from room temp to 154 degs ...

If you want a "true" infusion mash and would also like to save time, 
just strike with hot liquor.  You'll have to fine-tune for your
own equipment and methods, but I bring about 3 gals. water to about
162 degs and then add 8 lb. grain.  The temperature settles at >=150
and I can adjust upward with a little boiling water if need be.
(PS: this may not seem like a very stiff mash, but I'm using a bruheat
with a hanging grain bag...there's about 1 gal. below the grain.)

Also, Jack, I urge you to collect more data points before concluding
that a single-step mash gives a lower yield.  In my experience there has
been no difference.

Finally, let me put in my two cents in favour of the Corona grinder (mine
is a Polish look-alike).  True, it's not a mill and it 'scrapes' instead
of crushing, but it does a decent job with very little flour if you set
it _just_barely_ fine enough to break all grains.  There's no need to
spend a lot of money, and you get freshly ground grain.  However,  I
don't buy Florian's argument that it pays for itself compared to the
cost of brewing with extract:  Saving money is not the reason to brew
from grain...love or lunacy are the only things that could justify
investing an extra 3-6 hours in each batch.  (Well, OK, better beer
is another reason.)

Happy Holidays, all,
Rob (bradley at adx.adelphi.edu)

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Date: Fri, 13 Dec 91 17:23:13 mst
From: DAMON_NOEL/HP0800_08%hpcsee.col.hp.com at col.hp.com
Subject: airlines transport

I had an experience similar to others in trying to hand carry a couple of
bottles (unlabeled champagne) in a briefcase aboard a flight from the
Colorado Springs airport.  Xray picked up the bottles, the attendant insisted
upon examining them.  I told him they were homemade beer.  "How do
I know, if you want to open one and show me (?) that will do."  Since I had
no way to open and recap I declined.  He told me if I could get the airline
to agree to carry the stuff he would let it through.  A hurried trip back to
check in, query to the supervisor, "Could I put the bottles in my checked
baggage?" No.  "What if I had just put them in before checking the bags?"
"That would be ok, but you didn't.  Now we know you/ve got them and you
can't prove what's in them."  I left the bottles at the checkin counter,
they put my name on them and on return a week later, surprise, they were
still there unopened!  I did not take this as commentary on the quality of
my brewing.  On a later trip, not wanting to risk breakage, I took a couple
of similar bottles, this time with reglued Budwater lables on the champagne
glass.  Same procedure at Xray, attendant examined the bottles, no questions.
Draw your own conclusions.

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Date:    Fri, 13 Dec 91 17:14:05 PST
From: hays at voodoo.physics.ucsb.edu
Subject: Kraeusening 

Kraeusening

I have a question regarding Kraeusening my medium to heavy bodied ales.  I
tried this on my last batch using the formula outlined in Papazian.  It
is only very slightly carbonated (but still very drinkable, of course!).
According to Burch, I should raise the S.G. by .005-.006 which I believe
makes Charlie's formula low by a factor of two.  In any case, I need some
help from you Kraeuseners.
The Details:  Extract/Mash recipe with I.G.=1.040 , Edme ale yeast, 
two weeks in closed plastic fermenter, racked and bottled with 1.4 quarts 
of gyle.
						Thanks,
						Andy Hays
						Hays at voodoo.ucsb.edu

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Date: Fri, 13 Dec 91 23:00:25 EST
From: sps!system at darth.pgh.pa.us at sps

To: homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
From: sps!system at darth.pgh.pa.us
Subject: re: howto keg

In HB779 Russ Gelinas said:

>  I just obtained a used Coke keg.  Everything I know about kegs I've learned
>from this digest, and of course I haven't paid all that much attention, since
>I didn't have a keg.  What would be nice is if there was a "howto keg"
>write-up, with, for example, what to replace, how to clean, how to fill,
>how to carbonate, how to serve, how to store, and what not to do. I know all
>of that info has been in the HD at some point.  Has anyone put it in any
>sort of order?  There's nothing about it in the archives; would be a nice
>thing to have there, though.

I second the notion, cover the Pepsi kegs (which I just obtained) as well.

 ...Kevin

 - - - - - - - + - - - - - - - - + - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Kevin J. Slater (sps!system at darth.pgh.pa.us)  | CI$ 73077,2427
Slater Programming Services                   | bix kslater
Glenshaw, PA 15116-0027                       |
 - - - - - - - + - - - - - - - - + - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


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Date: Thu, 12 Dec 91 14:47:31 PST
From: Martin A. Lodahl <pbmoss!malodah at PacBell.COM>
Subject: On Mashing & the Menage

In HOMEBREW Digest #778, Ted Amsel outlined a familiar scenario:

> I got home and found the house empty ... I decided to do a partial mash ...
>	... the family came home WITH a new puppy. Thus the kitchen was
> turned into chaos.


There oughta be a law, Ted.

> How does one brew all-grain with out interruption and still have a 
> familial unit?

If you ever find a really good answer, would you send word?  One thing 
that I can pretty well count on is just at that moment where
it's critical that nothing be stirred up and that I be able to work
quickly (like, when starting the siphon to rack the cooled wort to the
carboy), a veritable Panzer Division of kids & animals will stream
through, and generally stop to (loudly) discuss matters right in the
middle of the "brewery", until I bellow.  Sometimes it's not even that
easy to quell the riot -- I recall attempting to explain, as tactfully as
I could, the importance of bottle sanitation to a depressed French 
psychiatrist who was sure that she was being very helpful to me by
processing the bottles through with barely a sidelong glance at the
bleach solution.  Amazingly, no infection developed, but I sweated bullets
until the last bottle of that batch was gone.  Recently an entirely
new dimension of the problem has developed:  spectators!  Call me a
grump, if you will, but I generally prefer to work alone.  That way I 
can truly focus on what I'm doing, and I'm less likely to end up in one
of those awkward positions where something must be done NOW, but the tool
needed to do it is filthy.  Recently everyone I've ever met (brewers
excepted, of course) seems to have decided that, Gee Whiz, wouldn't it be
a grand thing to come and see Martin brew.  I suppose that would be fine,
but they usually bring their kids to play with my kids (swelling the Panzer
ranks), and the last two such events have begun with the guest walking
right in and calling the sheriff, most recently because someone shot a
hole in their car as they were turning into my driveway (no, it's not
THAT kind of neighborhood)(And that story's actually a good deal weirder
than I've made it sound -- I'll tell it to you some evening, over a brew).

I don't think the problem's as much families as it is Karma.  Disasters
that would NEVER happen when I'm raking up the leaves (ugh) seem to know
when I'm brewing.  I had a realtor call me while I was brewing a batch
of porter to say someone was finally making an offer on the money-pit I'd
been trying to unload for over a year, and that the papers were even then
being faxed to a location a few miles from me.  I could just make it there
and back during starch conversion.  Halfway there, the water pump on my
truck blew ...  (the porter turned out fine, despite a VERY long rest).
- -- 
= Martin A. Lodahl   			Pacific*Bell Systems Analyst =
= malodah at pbmoss.Pacbell.COM       Sacramento, CA       916.972.4821 =
= If it's good for ancient Druids, runnin' nekkid through the wuids, =
= Drinkin' strange fermented fluids, it's good enough for me!  8-)   =


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Date: Sat, 14 Dec 91 23:29:05 EST
From: psrc at sewer.att.com (Paul S R Chisholm)
Subject: bottle fillers

Is there some reason a bottle filler isn't considered a necessary piece
of equipment for brewing?

I siphoned my wort from my brewpot to my primary with the bent-tube
technique.  It went okay.  I racked from my primary to my priming
container, and from there into my bottles, using a bottle filler.  (I
sometimes think of this as a "bottling wand".  It's a stiff plastic
tube, a little more than a foot long, with a gizmo at one end.  The
weight of the wort/beer holds the gizmo closed, unless you press it
down against, e.g., the bottom of a bottle.  This thing attaches to the
lower end of the siphon tube.)

Siphoning was a thousand percent easier with the bottle filler!  To
stop siphoning, all I needed to do was lift the "wand".  Very simple,
very straightforward to control exactly how much beer gets in the
bottle.

Do people not talk about bottle fillers because there's a problem?  Or
because they're so wonderful, no one would consider siphoning without
one?

Paul S. R. Chisholm, AT&T Bell Laboratories, paul.s.r.chisholm at att.com
att!sewer!psrc, psrc at sewer.att.com, AT&T Mail !psrchisholm
I'm not speaking for the company, I'm just speaking my mind.

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Date: Sun, 15 Dec 91 02:17:39 EST
From: psrc at sewer.att.com (Paul S R Chisholm)
Subject: Re: Family discord

My sister (the family's first homebrewer) claimed that wort smelled
like boiled grass.  I didn't find the smell all that great.

My solution is to brew fairly late at night, when everybody else is
asleep.  (There's only one other member of my household who likes beer.
The last time I saw him drink one was this summer, at the Weeping
Radish, a German brewpub just off North Carolina's Outer Banks.)

Paul S. R. Chisholm, AT&T Bell Laboratories, paul.s.r.chisholm at att.com
att!sewer!psrc, psrc at sewer.att.com, AT&T Mail !psrchisholm
I'm not speaking for the company, I'm just speaking my mind.

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Date: Sun, 15 Dec 91 20:42:39 -0600 (CST)
From: Brian Capouch <brianc at zeta.saintjoe.EDU>
Subject: Best size for counterflow chiller

I'm putting together a little brewery, and I found out, somewhat at the
last minute, that my heat exchanger is not going to work as I'd planned. 

So I need to make a "quick-and-dirty' counterflow chiller.  My question
is this: would 1/4" or 3/8" tubing make the better mousetrap?  Intuition
tells me that the 1/4" would allow a much greater wort-to-coolant
surface area, since there'd be more wort (relatively) on the outsides of
the tubing than in the center.  That would be at the expense of
throughput, but I'd rather have cool wort exiting slowly than hot wort
exiting fast.

Is that logic good? 

Thanks.

Brian Capouch
Saint Joseph's College for Children
Rensselaer, IN 47978
brianc at saintjoe.edu

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Date:    Mon, 16 Dec 1991 9:21:41 -0500 (EST)
From: R_GELINAS at UNHH.UNH.EDU (Russ Gelinas)
Subject: flame Koch, not his beer

Uh, Kinney, I think the subject line about covers it.  Jim Koch is a
shameless marketer, as you say, but he makes good beer.  There *is* a
brewery in Boston, although some (most?) of the beer is contracted
out to Pittsburg.  One of the Boston brewers will probably set this
straight.  I don't think that Sam Adams lager is a "faceless, non-offensive
beer".  It sure seems to have a lot more character than Becks or Heineken,
and I know people who don't like it ("it's too strong").  That's not to
say that there's not a number of microbrews (and homebrews) that blow Sam 
away.  The point is that Koch's *beer*, for the most part, is a flavorful 
quality brew.  Koch's *attitude* is something completely different.

Russ

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Date: Mon, 16 Dec 91 9:18:19 EST
From: klm at gozer.MV.COM (Kevin L. McBride)
Subject: Re: 'Fessin up (delayed video reviews)

In HBD #xxx, Mark Nevar <man at kato.att.com> writes:

>        Why don't we do this: Will anyone who got a free copy under the
> pretention of posting a review please step forward and explain yourself?
> Now, give them a week. If Jack has a larger list than those who respond,
> I suggest he post them after the week is over. Then we will see who is
> fessin' up.

Short Shameful Confession time:

A net.friend of mine (who shall remain nameless for now, but he is NOT
an HBD subscriber) got a copy of Jack's video.  He and I have been
trying to connect for several weeks now to have a sit down and do an
objective review of it.

Unfortunately, with my being the boss and it being close to year end
and it being the case that revenues are down, etc., etc., one might
imagine that the only toob I have time to watch right now is the one
attached to my workstation.  One would be correct.

We'll get to it eventually.  Promise.  In the meantime, RDWHAHB.

- -- 
Kevin L. McBride        | Braumeister and Keg Scrubber
President         DoD   | The McBeer Brewery
MSCG, Inc.       #0348  | Nashua, NH
klm at gozer.mv.com        | 

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Date: 16 Dec 1991   8:52 EST
From: afd at hera.cc.bellcore.com (adietz)
Subject: Rolling Grain Mill, under $40

Whoof, I think I've begun the redeeming process of discarding my semi-yupster
lifestyle.  Last weekend, I transformed my oh-so-trendy-at-the-time hand 
crank pasta maker into:

	>>>>>A ROLLING GRAIN MILL<<<<<

But you know, it did make good pasta - actually GREAT pasta.  Oh well,
now it performs a far greater service.

This is my story:

All this recent talk about grain mills got me thinking how the budget
brewer could build such a gadget.  After discarding a bunch of my own ideas,
reading over Jack Schmidling's design (which was well done BTW.  Hats off
to Jack.), my eyes lit upon the dusty Atlas hand-cranked pasta machine.
So, they've pretty much done the engineering for you.  Pasta machines
have two opposing rollers to flatten the dough and an adjustable gap.
After an afternoon of tinkering, the result is a hand powered rolling grain
mill with an adjustable gap that works just as fast, if not faster, as my
Corona Mill.  Total cost: under 40 bucks.  Man, I tell ya - I doubt I'll
ever use the Corona Mill again.

1. Buy a pasta maker, or sneak one out of a trendy friend's kitchen.
You can buy pasta makers at most kitchen stores, dept. stores, etc.  They
run between $35-40.  Out here in NJ, I got mine at Fortunoff's in the
Willowbrook mall.

2. Modifying the pasta maker.  No disassembly required.
Now, it's time to take the shine off the pasta rollers. (Otherwise the
grain sits & spins) Get a grinding wheel bit for a power drill.  
I got mine for about 3 bucks at my local hardware store.  They've got 
all sorts of geometries.  Mine looked like a pink stone teardrop.  
Anything will work if it takes the shine off the stainless steel.

Take that power drill (If you don't know how to operate one, watch an 
old episode of "Mission Impossible.") and grind the
begezzus out of those shiny, smooth, adjustable  rollers.  You don't need 
to dig.  Press just enough to make a rough surface.  Go back & forth in 
a lengthwise pattern.  Turn the crank, repeat again, all the way around.

3. You're done.  Have fun.
Put in some grain and try out your new rolling mill.  Iterate on the grinding 
as necessary.  

I made a hopper from a old pizza box.  This'll take all the grain you can
put through it.

A pasta machine - makes a great Xmas gift for the brewer in your life. :-)

 -A Dietz
Bellcore, Morristown
("No, No, don't thank me.  Name your next born after me.)

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Date: Mon, 16 Dec 91 09:08:34 CST
From: Fritz Keinert <keinert at iastate.edu>
Subject: size of digest

IOn HBD #782, Rob Gardner writes

> In other words, digest traffic is getting out of hand, and people
> are noticing. I'm afraid that the time is coming where we're going to have
> to figure out how to reduce the volume.

I get the digest by direct mail, but I could pick it up from newsgroup
rec.crafts.brewing. I don't find the rest of rec.crafts.brewing that
interesting, and I was never sure how consistent this cross-posting
would be, but I would be willing to switch.

If you or somebody else would be willing to consistently send the
digest to rec.crafts.brewing, maybe we could keep the direct mailing
at a lower level.
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fritz Keinert                             phone:  (515) 294-5128
Department of Mathematics                 fax:    (515) 294-5454
Iowa State University                     e-mail: keinert at iastate.edu
Ames, IA 50011


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Date: Mon, 16 Dec 91 08:46 MST
From: homer at drutx.att.com
Subject: Re: grainmill idea?

>I just had a stray thought... Has anyone tried rigging a hopper above the
>rollers on a cheap hand-cranked pasta machine to crack grain?

One of the pasta machine makers has a grain mill.  It looks much like
the pasta machine, but the roller are scored to "grab" the grains.
Since it is intended to make flour, a simple modification would be necessary
to crush malt.  The cost is high, close to $100 I recall, so I have
not used one.

Jim Homer
att!drutx!homer

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Date: Mon, 16 Dec 91 10:08:24 -0600
From: melkor!rick at uunet.UU.NET (Rick Larson)
Subject: distilled water and beer


I can get a glass carboy from my local water distributer for $7.
The carboy comes filled with distilled water.  Can I use this water
for making beer?  I am an extract/specialty grain brewer (ales, stouts...).

rick

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Date: Mon, 16 Dec 91 09:14:56 PST
From: Donald Oconnor <oconnor at chemistry.UCSC.EDU>
Subject: pasta mill

Ken Weiss inquired about using a pasta maker/cutter as a grain mill.  I 
tried this a couple of years ago.  It doesn't work.  Can't pull the grain
through.  
Commericial roller mills have very large rollers, 6" diameter.  Pasta rollers
are only and inch or so in diameter.  That's probably the problem.  A large
roller leaves essentially are long feed area into the cracking region.  Pasta
rollers are also very smooth; I'm not sure about commercial ones.  Does anyone
know if commercial rollers are roughened or what?  Commercial rollers are used
to make chicken feed among other things.

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Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1991 09:22 PDT
From: Bob Jones <BJONES at NOVA.llnl.gov>
Subject: Yeast in Space

There is a guy who worked here with me who is in the astronaut training
program at NASA. He is also a beer lover. He says if he ever makes it to
space he will carry along some yeast and bring it back for brewing an
OUT OF THIS WORLD ALE. I wonder what Koch would pay for this yeast?

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Date:         Mon, 16 Dec 91 12:13:27 EST
From: Tom Dimock <RGG at CORNELLC.cit.cornell.edu>
Subject:      Carbonation and Grain Mills

Rich Kempinski asked in HBD 779 about rescuing an under-carbonated
batch.  I had one of these (batch #1...) and ended up pouring all of
the bottles back into my priming bucket, adding fresh priming
sugar and a fresh yeast starter and then re-bottling.  A pain in the
a-- to do, but it did result in a pretty good ale.

A Dietz wants to prime without sugar to preserve flavor.  The best
way to make sure you don't change the flavor is to save some of your
sweet wort (I have never done this, but have seen writeups of using
3 pints for a five gallon batch) under sanitary conditions and then
using it for priming.  Don't remember where I saw that, but it was
a spli batch comparison of using sugar, DME, and sweet wort.  The
sweet wort won hands down.  I'm gonna try this one myself one of
these batches.

On roller mills  -  the reference in HBD 780 to building a roller
mill using the rollers from a grocery store checkout came from a
small book on building your own brewery.  I don't remember the
exact title, but it was xerox style publishing and probably isn't
available any more.  I do recall that the rollers were 4" in diameter,
and that there was a provision for adjusting the spacing.  Although
there was a picture of the device, it conveyed very little
useful information on how to build it.  For example, there was NO
indication of how the rollers were powered.

In doing some serious "wetware simulations" (i.e. kicking back with
a homebrew and thinking about it), I came up with several unknowns.
First, what are the critical factors in getting the grain to feed.
My simulations very easily showed the grains just sitting on the
rollers with not enough traction to get sucked in.  Jack S has
dealt with this on small diameter rollers (1.5") through (I think)
longitudinal serrations cut into the rollers.  I am fairly sure that
the rollers on a pasta machine would not work for this reason.  The
4" rollers are probably big enough to work with smooth surfaces.  Do
we have any Industrial Process engineers out there who could
calulate for us the minimum roller size for a smooth roller to
work effectively on the grains we use?

My second unknown was roller spacing. Is there a specific spacing
which guarantees a good crush, or does this vary with the grain?
Would adjustable spacing be required?  That would make the
construction a bit harder.

What data can people come up with?  Measurements of commercial
mills that work?

BTW - My series on keg boilers is coming along -- Part 3 got
stuck in the push down stack, but should escape soon....

Tom Dimock  -  "Flame your kettle, not the net!"

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Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1991 09:58:05 -0800
From: krweiss at ucdavis.edu
Subject: avoiding bandwidth waste

>Jack:
>On the STUFF postings. You said you didn't separate your posts to save 
>bandwith (sic). But you continue to post ads and EASY MASH techniques
>and INTIMIDATION posts to both the HBD and rec.crafts.brewing. This
>is a terrible waste of bandwidth. You essentially send these posts
>to r.c.b twice. I suggest you only post these to one place (your choice,
>but HBD would let you get to everyone) and then with the extra bandwidth,
>you can separate your posts and keep the threads going with meaningful
>subject lines.
>
>Mark Nevar

I'd prefer to see Jack's postings in rec.crafts.brewing, particularly in
light of Rob Gardner's note about possible problems with his management due
to the volume of mail generated by HBD.

- -------------------------------------------
Ken Weiss               krweiss at ucdavis.edu
Computing Services      916/752-5554
U.C. Davis              916/752-9154 (fax)
Davis, CA 95616


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Date: Mon, 16 Dec 91 10:32:03 PST
From: "John Cotterill" <johnc at hprpcd.rose.hp.com>
Subject: Iodophor Anyone?
Full-Name: "John Cotterill"

In several previous posts, the use of Iodophor from Diversity Chemical was
recommended for sterilizing stainless steel.  I talked to the local rep here,
and they only sell the stuff in a crate of 4 1-gallon containers.  I asked
if I could get a 1 gallon sample, but he seemed very resistant (I think if
I pushed hard enough I could get it).  I got to thinking that many of you out
there might like to get a hold of single gallon also.  The stuff costs
$55.13 for the box of 4 1-gallon containers.  I would be willing to buy
the case, take a gallon for my use, and sell the other 3 to anyone who wants
a gallon or more.  I'll sell it for what it costs me plus whatever it costs
to ship it to you (provided the stuff can be shipped legally).  If there is
some interest, please e-mail me and I'll get the process in motion.
John 
johnc at hprpcd.rose.hp.com

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Date: Mon, 16 Dec 91 10:45:18 PST
From: Geof Grogan 685-1711 <gef at engr.washington.edu>
Subject: Seattle Taverns


>Date: Fri, 13 Dec 91 10:39:43 -0800
>From: ktk at nas.nasa.gov (Katy T. Kislitzin)
>Subject: Beer Places in Seattle

The information provided by Katy contains errors that
would be significant if you wanted to go to the places
mentioned. (The locations are wrong and Murphy's is
currently closed for remodeling.)

Details on request.


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Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1991 12:45 CST
From: "Rob Schultz --- 7822 --- 225.4 Thorvaldson" <SCHULTZ at admin1.usask.ca>
Subject: Re: Homebrew Digest #782 (December 16, 1991)


>Beer in space?  Hmm...  Has anyone sent some little yeastlies up in the shuttle
>to see if they'll still ferment?
>
>Barry Rein
>BREIN at gpvax.jpl.nasa.gov
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I seem to recall an experiment that went aboard the space shuttle a few years
ago, but the experiment dealt with formation of bubbles and not fermentation.
The origin of this experiment was here at the University of Saskatchewan and
some Engineering Physics students if my memory serves correctly.

Robert

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Date: Mon, 16 Dec 91 11:25 CST
From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Millling, Boiling, Bandwidth

 
 To: Homebrew Digest
 Fm: Jack Schmidling
 
 From: Peter Glen Berger <pb1p+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
 Subject: Fwd: STUFF
 
 >I E-mailed Jack Schmidling an explained that I had access to a
 metalshop, and requested detailed instructions on how to build my own
 grain mill.  Here is the response I received.  I have edited it, but
 retain a copy of the full text for all interested parties.
 
 I would suggest that interested parties request the text from me rather than 
 a pirated copy.  I have made significant enough changes that make your copy 
 totally obsolete.  It runs far better at 120 rpm and the ideal spacing seems 
 to be around .020.  I have also developed a hand cranked version that works 
 amazingly well.
 
 In regard to the rest of your sarcasm, I suggest you try honey instead of 
 vinegar.
 
 From: krweiss at ucdavis.edu
 Subject: grainmill idea?
 
 >I just had a stray thought... Has anyone tried rigging a hopper above the
 rollers on a cheap hand-cranked pasta machine to crack grain?
 
 >The rollers are steel, and adjustable from pretty far apart to really close
 together. I just don't know if they'd "grab" the grains and run them
 through or not.
 
 Don't bother, it won't work unless you run it through several times at
 progressivley closer spacings.  That is why roller mills have multiple sets 
 of rollers and also why they are so expensive.  That is also why the one I 
 made  has, what  amounts to teeth on the rollers to grab the grain.   The 
 rollers on my pasta machine are so smooth that I doubt it would work at any 
 spacing.
 
 From: man at kato.att.com
 Subject: boiling
 
 >Since I moved my brewing outdoors, I have had experiences that none of
 you have mentioned. When I brewed indoors, it took 1.5 hours minimum to
 boil down 6.5 gal of wort to 5.5 gal. So far, I have made 2 batches
 outdoors. One batch was 6.5 gal pre-boil and the other was > 8 gal pre-
 boil. In both cases, I boiled it to under 5 gal in 1 hour.
 
 Consider it a blessing.   You can start out with more wort at a lower sg and 
 end up with more beer.  I typically get 1.5 gal per hour boil off on my 
 furnace.
 
 >Jack:
 On the STUFF postings. You said you didn't separate your posts to save
 bandwith (sic). But you continue to post ads and EASY MASH techniques
 and INTIMIDATION posts to both the HBD and rec.crafts.brewing. This
 is a terrible waste of bandwidth.
 
 First of all, I have not seen HBD on rcb for quite some time, so it does not 
 appear to be redundant.  Secondly,  as there seems to be a different ambience 
 on HBD, I frequently re-phrase postings or leave some things out of HBD 
 articles.  They are not the same.
 
 js
 
 
 
 

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Date: Mon Dec 16 10:31:55 1991
From: larryba at microsoft.com
Subject: Re: pasta (grain) mills

I tired it, it doesn't work.  The pasta mill rollers are too small in
diameter to "grab" the grain.  The Seattle Brew Brothers have a mill
with rolls made from 4" pipe (ends welded, shaft installed, outside
turned true, about a foot long) and it seems to work very well.  Only
one roll is driven, the other free-wheels, you have to get the
undriven one spinning slightly before dumping in the grain.  It will
eat a fifty pound sack in about a minute.  Very impressive.



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Date: Wed, 11 Dec 91 12:00:06 PST
From: pierce at chips.com (John Pierce)
Subject: re: my east coast visit, OOPS!

mips!leia.polaroid.com!GAIA!STROUD at chips.chips.com Writes:
>In HBD 778 you said:
>>we stopped by the Centennial Brewery in Boston for lunch one
>>day and had their Stout and their Bitter
>Surely you meant the _Commonwealth_ Brewery, didn't you?  I live in Boston and 
>have never heard of a Centennial Brewery.  You might want to post a correction 
>to HBD so as not to confuse anyone.
>The Commonwealth is an all-grain brewery, but as you pointed out, the quality 
>of their brews can be variable at times.  It's generally good.

Ooops.  I stand corrected.  Its hard to remember names from 2500 miles
and 2 weeks away.  ;-}  Also should have pointed out that the food there was
quite good.  Great burger!  I knew the name started with a C, didn't I? ;->

John R Pierce			pierce at chips.com


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Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1991 14:18:34 -0600
From: "John A. Palkovic" <scientist at lupulus.ssc.gov>
Subject: de-arf program, water quality

I have written a filter that removes certain postings from the HBD.
It runs on unix computers. It only needs a handful of unix utilities.
You can attain a copy via anonymous ftp from lupulus.ssc.gov. Look for
pub/de-arf.shar. I have tested this script on SunOS 4.1.1 and Ultrix
4.2. I hear that it also works on a Unix-PC.  For those without anon.
ftp access, I will mail a copy on demand.

I figure only one person will flame me for writing this. :-) My own
opinion is that it makes the HBD a lot easier to read, and it merely
automates what I have been doing manually for months. Since it is
written in sh, you can hack it to your heart's content, and perhaps
improve it.

Now for something homebrew related. In his book, Papazian says (p. 79)

   ... information about the contents of your drinking water supply is
   available at no cost from your local water department

What exactly should I ask my water dept.? Should I call or write? Is
there a law that says they have to supply this info at no cost?

I have other questions about water, but I'll leave it at that for now.

- -- 
scientist at lupulus.ssc.gov
I joined the League for Programming Freedom -- write to league at prep.ai.mit.edu
Not speaking for the SSC, the DOE, or the URA

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Date: 16 Dec 91 15:28:10 EST
From: Ruth Mazo Karras <RKARRAS at PENNSAS.UPENN.EDU>
Subject: Aging

Is there a rule of thumb for how much time to give a homebrew in the bottle
before quaffing it? I find that due to overeagerness and lack of storage space
I tend to drink my brew before it gets as good as it gets and then I have less
of it when it is good.

Chris Karras    RKarras at PennSAS.UPenn.EDU

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Date: Mon, 16 Dec 91 12:41:38 PST
From: Greg Roody - DTN 237-7122 - MaBell 508-841-7122 16-Dec-1991 1535 <roody at necsc.enet.dec.com>
Subject: re: What makes top top or bottom bottom

Mike Dobres asked what makes top fermenting yeast float.  Well, I once had 
access to a high resolution microscope and guess what?  They all had on 
these little tiny yellow life jackets.  Really, I'm not making this up.  
Really, little tiny ones, and they were all drinkin and carryin on like you 
wouldn't believe.  Conversly, the bottom feeders all had on wetsuits and 
snorkels.  

And I hope you all have a merry holiday season too.

/greg



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Date: Mon, 16 Dec 91 12:42:32 PST
From: beng at microsoft.com
Subject: Re: Beer Places in Seattle [errata]

Katy lauds a few of my neighborhood taverns:

| Date: Fri, 13 Dec 91 10:39:43 -0800
| >From: ktk at nas.nasa.gov (Katy T. Kislitzin)
| Subject: Beer Places in Seattle
| 
| Two *interesting* taverns in Seattle are Murphy's Pub and The Blue
| Moon. They are both on NE 39th,

Make that N 45th St.

|
| west of Univ of Wash.  Murhpy's is
| really in Wallingford, [...]
| 
| Murphy's is an Irish pub with excellent live music most evenings.

Slight correction: Murphy's WAS an Irish pub with etc., etc., as they've
lost their lease, and so are temporarily without a home.  Happily, they are
resuming work on a new site just down the street.  No clue as to when
they'll reopen, alas, but it shouldn't be more than a couple more months
(he said, hopefully).

Couple of notes on your other mentioned places:

The Blue Moon is smoky as all hell, and drenched with attitude (albeit an
alternative attitude).	Monday evenings (Opera Night) are good, since the
music frightens away many regulars; Thursday is Dead Night, if that's your
pint.  Actually, I suppose every night is Dead Night there.  Dress down.

The Red Hook Brewery keeps an attached brewpub, the "Trolleyman."  It's
smoke-free, but a bit lacking in the ambience department, unless you like
to drink in your Mom's living room.  They have live muzak on Monday nights.
Four taps, including one rotating of a cask-conditioned variety.  Good
place if you don't mind young-upwardly-mobile types, or can ignore same for
good beer sans secondhand smoke.  Beware: closes ungodly early (c. 10-11pm).

- --
Ben Goetter, beng at microsoft.com




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Date: 	Mon, 16 Dec 1991 14:10:08 PST
From: Patrick_Waara.WBST129 at xerox.com
Subject: Re: boil overs

I'm way behind in my digest reading, but I haven't seen anyone mention the
method I use to avoid boil overs, so I thought I'd share it.  What I do is let
the wort foam up near the top of my brew pot as it begins to boil.  Once it
gets close to the top (not too close as I'm try to avoid a boil over afterall),
I remove the wort from the burner.  I then let it set until the foam subsides
(a minute or so).  When the foam has gone down, such that I can see the wort, I
return it to the burner.  I watch it as it quickly returns to a rolling boil
and rarely will it foam up again.  If the foam does rise up again (usually
meaning the boil wasn't going strongly enough before I removed it from the heat
the first time), I simply repeat the procedure.  I've used this method for my
last 24 batches and haven't had a boil over yet.

~Pat

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #783, 12/17/91
*************************************
-------

---