FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Homebrew Supply Sales in NYC? (GAHAAS)
  Re: Homebrew Digest #811 (January 28, 1992) (Janet_L._Hunt.Wbst139)
  Homebrew Digest ("Maximillian D. Robbins")
  RE:Sanitizing Agents (Gary Braswell)
  sanitizing agents
  Whitbread,ss spigot (Russ Gelinas)
  Teel Pumps (Tom Dimock)
  Malt mill (ala JS) (Tom Dimock)
  CO2 temperature/pressure/volume charts for kegging ("a.e.mossberg")
  Re: PH readings (John Polstra)
  re red star (Chip Hitchcock)
  Wyeast Package Problems (loc)
  AHA Nationals.. told you so... (Jay Hersh)
  Botul-oops! (Dennis J. Templeton)
  PSI/Temp chart for force carbonation (man)
  Re: sanitizing agents (Tom Quinn 5-4291)
  Botulism, Dry Yeast (Jack Schmidling)


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[Please do not send me requests for back issues!]
Archives are available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:         Mon, 27 Jan 92 11:06:48 EST
From: GAHAAS%ERENJ.BITNET at pucc.Princeton.EDU
Subject:      Homebrew Supply Sales in NYC?

Hello All -

      Does anyone know address &/or Phone #'s of homebrew supply stores in
New York City? The Manhattan Yellow Pages don't show any, even though I've
heard one is now selling supplies in Soho/Gr.Village.  Any clues?

How's that song go?  'If I can make it here, I can make it anywhere.....It's
time to brew, New York, New York....'   :)

Greg H.

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Date: 	Tue, 28 Jan 1992 06:03:07 PST
From: Janet_L._Hunt.Wbst139 at xerox.com
Subject: Re: Homebrew Digest #811 (January 28, 1992)

I have tried, But can`t seem to remove myself from this DL.  Can anyone do this
for me - Please-  Thank You.

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Date:         Tue, 28 Jan 92  09:34:43 EST
From: "Maximillian D. Robbins" <ROBBINSM%GUVM.bitnet at VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Homebrew Digest

      Information Systems
I am looking for a maly extract recipe for  beer called Chimay "Trappiste".
Could anyone help me.
Thanx in advance.

In-Reply-To:  note of 01/28/92 05:44

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Date: Tue, 28 Jan 92 8:29:37 CST
From: ingr!b11!rocker!gary at uunet.UU.NET (Gary Braswell)
Subject: RE:Sanitizing Agents


Subject: sanitizing agents

>I recently moved into a house with a septic tank.  After reading up a bit
>on the way septic tanks work, I became concerned that dumping the chlorinated
>water I use to sanitize will disrupt the workings of my septic system.  Is
>this a real problem or am I worrying overly (I'm getting a homebrew to relax
>with right now)?

  I also live in a house w/ a septic tank, and I was advised not to use bleach
  in cleaning the bathroom, because the bleach running down the drain would
  kill all the little septics :-).  As for chlorinated water, I would guess
  it would be a function of what the percentage of water you are introducing
  into the tank is (as compared to the tank's capacity), and what the
  concentration of chlorine is in the solution.  My gut feeling is that I
  would advise against it. 

  My solution to this problem would probably not be apropos to you, as I live 
  in the fairly rural area of Alabama that surrounds Huntsville, and my 
  neighbors have not said anything to me when I dump my toxins into the 
  drainage ditch at the edge of my back yard :-).  I have not noticed any dead
  birds or two-headed squirrels in the area, so I don't think it is affecting
  the enviroment that adversely, but that may or may not be socially
  acceptable in your neck of the woods.

  If worse comes to worst, I can't remember the exact amount, but I believe
  it would cost less than a 100 bucks to have your ceptic tank drained and
  have them re-introduce the bacteria into the system.  The builder of our
  house advised that you do that every 4 or 5 years, anyway.
- -- 
/*****************************************************************************/
 "We'll...do our best to help you port from  | Gary Braswell, Systems Engineer
  an AT&T version to 4.2 BSD, but porting the| Intergraph Corporation
  other way is out of the question if many of| gary at rocker.b11.ingr.com
  the Berkely-specific system calls are used.| Engineering Dept.
 -M. Rochkind in "Advanced UNIX Programming" | PH. 730-6497, MS CR1105
/*****************************************************************************/

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Date:    Tue, 28 Jan 1992 9:45:43 -0500 (EST)
From: R_GELINAS at UNHH.UNH.EDU (Russ Gelinas)
Subject: Whitbread,ss spigot

  I've got a data point in support of G.Fix's assertation that the #2 
Whitbread strain is a good fermenter.  I made a strong ale (mistakenly,
but that's not important) that had an OG of at least 1.060 and might
have been over 1.100, depending on my extraction rate.  The initial (first
1-2 weeks) of ferment were slow.  Then, without any prompting from me, the 
ferment just took off, almost making another krausen head.  It's been more
than a month, and it's still fermenting strongly.  I took a taste after
about 2 weeks, and didn't like it: strong solvent/cloves/vinous flavor/aroma.
If I remember correctly, that is characteristic of the #1 strain. Correct me
if I'm wrong. Since then, the aroma has mellowed/sweetened considerably. I 
would expect the flavor to have similarly improved, although it may still
need some aging.  It was intended to be an Oatmeal Stout, btw, but it turned
into an Imperial Oatmeal Stout.  New category anyone?

  I'm also looking for advice as to adding a spigot to a stainless steel
brewpot.  According to the person with the MIG welder, the spigot has to
be the same steel as the pot.  True?   And if so, where to find a ss spigot?

Russ

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Date:         Tue, 28 Jan 92 09:54:02 EST
From: Tom Dimock <RGG at CORNELLC.cit.cornell.edu>
Subject:      Teel Pumps

The Teel magnetic drive pump is a gravity feed pump, which means that
the fluid must get to the pump on its own - the pump does not suck.
This makes it suitable for setups where the pot or tun from which you
are pumping has a bottom spigot.  It won't work in the situation where
you want to just drop the hose into the pot and start pumping.
Another way of describing this pump is that it is not self-priming.
The capacity of the pump is not really a problem, because you can
put an inexpensive motor speed controller on it and slow down the pump.
Oxidation should not be a problem - the pump body and impeller should
not contain any air....

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Date:         Tue, 28 Jan 92 09:59:52 EST
From: Tom Dimock <RGG at CORNELLC.cit.cornell.edu>
Subject:      Malt mill (ala JS)

Well, folks, I did it.  I sent my money off to JS and bought one of
his bottom of the line (non-adjustable, hand cranked) malt mills.
As was mentioned in the review several weeks ago, the aesthetics are
kind of home-shop.  However, in a nano-brewery where lots of the
stuff is built out of plastic buckets and hacked up kegs, it looks right
at home.  The important part is the roller assembly, and that is a gem.
It is very simple, but that does not mean it would be simple to build.
I actually have all of the tools needed to do the job, (well, I don't
have a foundry, but the parts Jack casts could as easily by fabricated
from thick aluminum plate) but the time it would take me would be
just too much.  For $100, I'm willing to let Jack do it.  Besides, he
did the research - if I built my own, I'd probably have to do it a
couple of times before I got it right.

So how does it work?  In a word, great.  I ran several kinds of grain
through it, and they all got a great crush.  It is quick and easy.  If
what you want is Williams-Sonoma yuppie glitz, this mill will not make
you happy.  If you want a mill that is pretty much optimized for
the small scale brew, this is your machine.  IMHO the price is fair, and
I don't feel ripped off at all.  BTW, Williams-Sonoma has, among all the
yuppie glitz, some very nice 3 liter canning jars for $6 apiece that are
great for storing specialty grains, etc.

I have no connections with Jack other than reading his posts (and yes I
was pretty pissed last fall too :-) ) and buying his mill.  I'm glad
he's making them.......

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Date: Mon, 27 Jan 92 15:44:54 CST
From: dyer at marble.rtsg.mot.com (Bill Dyer)





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 following this thread on how UPS is refusing to ship
alcohol because it is company policy or whatever.  This is garbage. 
Every month I recieve two bottles of wine and two six packs of beer
from UPS (Taste of California and Beer Across America).  UPS is the 
most inconsistent organization in the world.  Supposedly, they have 
a signature for everything they deliver, but I come home from work 
all the time to find thing left on my porch in broad daylight.  Sometimes
the boxes contain very expensive things (software, china etc).  The first
time I got my shipment of wine from Taste of California, they made a really
big deal out of getting an adult signature because the package contained
alcohol.  We called up and asked if we could leave one of those yellow
slips with our signature on it and they said "Oh no, you'll have to sign 
in person for packages containing alcohol."  So we went  into UPS, signed
andgot  our wine.  Well, the very next month, I come home from work and what
do I find on my porch but two bottles of wine delivered from UPS WITHOUT
my signature.  Oh well, some much for company policy.  The bottom line is
that they will ship alcoholic beverages, but who knows what you have to 
go through to get them to do it.  I think the easiest thing is to lie and 
tell them it's something else and avoid the hassle altogether.

Later,

 -Bill

_____________________________________________________________________________
|  you'll think I'm dead, but I sail away   |Bill Dyer  (708) 632-7081      |
|  on a wave of mutilation                  | dyer at motcid.rtsg.mot.com      |
|                     -Pixies               | or  uunet!motcid!dyer         |

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Date: Tue, 28 Jan 92 13:29:30 -0500
From: "a.e.mossberg" <aem at mthvax.cs.miami.edu>
Subject: CO2 temperature/pressure/volume charts for kegging


Ken Key (key at cs.utk.edu) has provided CO2 temperature/pressure/volume
charts for kegging in both plain text and PostScript formats for the
homebrew archives at mthvax.cs.miami.edu

They are available as co2.txt and co2.ps

For those unable to ftp to mthvax.cs.miami.edu, you can retrieve
them via the netlib server by sending the command

send co2.txt from homebrew

to netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu for the plain text, or 

send co2.ps from homebrew

for the postscript version. 

Thanks Ken!

aem

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Date: Tue, 28 Jan 92 10:54:20 PST
From: polstra!jdp at uunet.UU.NET (John Polstra)
Subject: Re: PH readings

In HBD #811, motcid!red!chambers at uunet.UU.NET (Jeff Chambers) writes:

> Is there a better (and also cheap) way to determine the PH of your
> grist than with typical PH papers?  I take a reading and for the life
> of me I can determine the PH with any kind of accurracy.  Do other
> people has this problem of should I consult an eye doctor?

If you find an eye doctor who can help with this problem, please let me
know!

I gave up on pH papers and bought a small digital pH meter from American
Brewmaster.  I don't remember the exact price, but it was under $50.  It
works well for me.  I checked it on my marine aquarium, which has a
known pH of 8.3, and it read accurately.

You can reach American Brewmaster at (919) 850-0095.  They're in
Raleigh, North Carolina.

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Date: Tue, 28 Jan 92 13:14:53 EST
From: cjh at vallance.HQ.Ileaf.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: re red star

Russ Gelinas put in a "clarification" that Red Star \ale/ yeast was bad but
the \lager/ yeast was "clean". This doesn't match the ZYMURGY lab results
(in which RS and Vierka lager yeasts were rated ~1 out of 10), or an
experiment in Boston in which the taste of OG-1.035 lager fermented with
straight RS was instantly recognizable against more of the same wort
fermented with single-cell-cultured Red Star. It appears that RS has high
levels of contaminants that seriously affect the flavor of milder beers.

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Date: Tue, 28 Jan 92 08:57:57 EST
From: loc at bostech.com
Subject: Wyeast Package Problems

With reference to the various experiences people
are having with Wyeast packages, I noticed something
new on the package.  Yes, it is a bit strange but I do
read packages. (8^)  The new Wyeast packages contain new
instructions on them.  I understand that these new 
instructions are specifically intended to prevent the
seam from failing.  I noticed these new guidelines
on a package of Danish lager I just used.  

The instructions now say to place one hand across the bottom
seam of the package, holding it closed, while the other hand
is used to just rupture the inner yeast packet.  

>From what I can gather from my sources, Wyeast fills the 
package from the bottom and this is the seam that is the most
prone to failure.  (I've had seams go before, but can't
remember which one right now) 

*DISCLAIMER* the following statement is pure conjecture and has 
no base in fact.  With that said, I suspect that the Wyeast people 
are working to solve the failing seam problem, but it is a 
harder problem than meets the eye.

So check out the next Wyeast package you get that has a 1992
date on it and read how the directions have changed.  If I learn 
any more, I will post the info.

cheers,
rogerl 

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Date: Tue, 28 Jan 92 15:25:04 EST
From: Jay Hersh <hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu>
Subject: AHA Nationals.. told you so...



AHEM... not being one to pat myself on the back and say I told you so :-), but
long time readers of the HBD will recall a discussion held several years ago 
caling for the creation of a tiered competition system where winners judged at a
local or regional site would then be forwarded on to the National Round finals.

At the time of the discussion the AHA competition was smaller, but there 
were also a lot fewer judges. I think back then ( late 87 or 88) the 
AHA just did not have confidence in anyone outside of Boulder to take
these responsibilities. While much controversy raged around this issue
(and some of us let our AHA memberships lapse over it...) time has vindicated
those championing such a system.

Now if the AHA would only actually let it's members have some real
representation, say like having an elected Board of Advisors who actually had
some authority to make policy over certain non-publishing issues (such as 
judging and competition policy) I'd be really happy. Still in all they have
been a lot more responsive in the last few years accepting suggestions such
as moving the conference around...

 - JaH

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hopfen und Malz, Gott erhalts

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Date: Tue, 28 Jan 92 16:39:24 -0500
From: djt2 at po.CWRU.Edu (Dennis J. Templeton)
Subject: Botul-oops!


After being notified privately that my recent post on the heat-lability of
the botulism toxin was ion error (and particularly offensive to boot), 
I resorted to re-checking my facts (which should have been my first move).

Facts:

1)	The botulism toxin is quite unstable in boiling liquids; a 10	
	minute boil should thoroughly inactivate it.

2)	Boiling does not kill the organism's spores; this requires at least
	pressure-cooker temps.

3)	I think Jack S. was right on this one. (Argh that hurts!)

There are bacterial toxins that are resistent to boiling (or pressure
cookers) Staph toxin is one; this was the source of my error.

My thanks to my tutors (especially Jim W.) and my apologies for the waste
of bandwidth.

dennis

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Date: Tue, 28 Jan 92 17:04 EST
From: man at kato.att.com
Subject: PSI/Temp chart for force carbonation

I have the above mentioned chart in my hot little hands right now.
In the past, I have force-carbonated mostly by luck, but I figured
this chart would take the guesswork out of it. Well, I have a question.
There is no mention of time anywhere. I went back through old digests
and found no mention there either. If I want 2.4 Volumes in my beer,
I can put it under 14PSI  at  46F. But how long will it take? Obviously,
it isn't instantaneous, but when it does reach 2.4 Vols., will it stay
there and not take anymore CO2 into solution ? My guess is no, but
I'm a programmer, not a cellar-master. So, what am I missing ?

Mark Nevar

"We all lead substantially diminished lifes when the beer we drink
 is as distinctive as Velveeta on Wonderbread." MJ


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Date: Tue, 28 Jan 92 17:03:37 CST
From: quinnt at turing.med.ge.com (Tom Quinn 5-4291)
Subject: Re: sanitizing agents

John Rodin writes:

   I recently moved into a house with a septic tank.  After reading up a bit
   on the way septic tanks work, I became concerned that dumping the chlorinated
   water I use to sanitize will disrupt the workings of my septic system.  Is
   this a real problem or am I worrying overly (I'm getting a homebrew to relax
   with right now)?  

My brother-in-law and part-time brew partner designs and builds septic
systems.  Since I recently acquired my first septic system I asked him
about the effects that homebrewing might have on it.  He felt that the
small amount of chlorine involved (approx 2 ounces per five gallons to
sanitize) would have no effect on the system's workings.  In fact, he
thought the yeast slurry which would be sent down would be an excellent
treatment to keep the system healthy and functioning well (I guess he meant
decomposition-wise).  He couldn't comment on the environmental impact of
the bleach.

Tom

===========================================================================
 Tom Quinn		  ||
 Consultant at		  || uucp: {uunet!crdgw1|sun!sunbrew}!gemed!quinnt
 G.E. Medical Systems	  || internet: quinnt at med.ge.com
 Milwaukee, WI 53201-414  ||
===========================================================================

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Date: Tue, 28 Jan 92 21:30 CST
From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Botulism, Dry Yeast

 
 To: Homebrew Digest
 Fm: Jack Schmidling
 
 From: cjh at vallance.HQ.Ileaf.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
 Subject: Schmidling's NA beer
 
 >  I asked Jack how he was sure his procedure produced NA beer, and got
 the following info, which I've annotated.
 
 I find it a bit strange that you would ask me questions in private mail and 
 them respond with edited, out of context sound bites, in public.
 
 >>I for got the numbers but you would be amazed at the volume reduction just
 >>bringing up to 170 and letting it cool.  It is on the order of a cup or 
 >>more. That's about 4 times the volume of the alcohol in the beer so I think 
 >>it is safe to say, it's gone.
 
 > * 1 cup per gallon is 6.25%; by volume, typical homebrew is 4-6% alcohol.
 (All US commercial figures are in weight%, which is lower; the traditional
 weak "3.2 beer" is 4% by volume.)
  * The composition of a vapor is governed by the concentrations and vapor
 pressures of the components of the underlying liquid. At 170F (76.7C),
 vapor pressure is 310 mmHg for water and 711 mmHg for ethanol, which means
 that the vapor should have ~2.3x as much ethanol as the beer---e.g., it will
 be ~10-15%v/v ethanol.
 
 All that is fascinating and elegant but, sheds not the slightest bit of light 
 on whether it is or is it not, "safe to say, it's gone"?
 
 >>I am not quite sure why I started using Champaign yeast but it clearly is
 unnecessary.  I use if for soft drinks because it is supposed to impart 
 little or no flavor of its own and I happened to have some on hand when I 
 started the NA project.
 
 >You should have included this info---if you want to be a momily-buster, 
 don't spread any of your own....
 
 Yes Mom, but I was just passing on a recipe that works and all of my reasons 
 for everything in it would be a waste of bandwidth.  Furthermore, you know 
 how sensitive I am.  Why did you ask the question in private and then scold 
 me in public.  Are you trying to stimulate another temper tantrum?
 
 From: djt2 at po.CWRU.Edu (Dennis J. Templeton)
 Subject: Practicing with poetic license
 
 >I see in the last HBD that ol' Jack S. has advanced from being simply the
 world's greatest brewer to being authority on community water supplies and
 medicine too.
 
 >Nay nay, I say.
 
 >Dear Jack; you cannot destroy the botulism toxin with a pressure cooker.
 
 >You are out of your league on this one.
 
 >dennis (M.D. Ph.D.)
 
 Not sure what "league" I am supposed to be in but if you are really an M.D., 
 you provide an excellent reminder of why most intelligent people have little 
 confidence in doctors.
 
 The following is from: Bacteriology, F W Tanner.....
 
 "The toxin formed by Clostridium botulinum is one of the most active poisons 
 known.  A small amount will cause death.  Some fatal cases have been reported 
 where a little liquor left on the tongue from tastina a portion of a bean pod 
 caused death with typical symptoms.  Experiments have shown that this toxin 
 is quite susceptible to heat and destroyed by boiling for a few minutes."
 
 This information is so basic that even moms routinely demonstrate a far 
 higher level of understanding than yours.  Mom are advised to boil home 
 canned foods for a few minutes before eating or tasting.
 
 The next time I need a doctor, I will make a point of checking out his 
 "poetic license".
 
 From: sherwood at adobe.com
 Subject: sparging
 
 >How to provide sparge water is thus my problem.  Dave and I got to talking, 
 and he said that his water heater will get up to 150F -- if it got to 160F he 
 would use that.
 
 I posted an article recently on the effects of sparging with boiling water 
 and never got a single reaction and have suspected it got eaten.  If you read 
 my article on sparging temp, you will probably be disinclined to try to use 
 water that cold.  It is fairly easy to keep a kettle of water boiling for 
 sparging if you are doing it at the proper rate.   If you are using your
 kettle as a mash tun, move it off the burner on to a stool for sparging.  You 
 now have the burner available for heating sparge water.  If you put a spiggot 
 on the kettle used for boiling, the process becomes automatic.  If not, just 
 dip it out with a soup ladle.  Every time you take out a ladle, replace it 
 with a ladle full of tap water.
 
 The ideal solution is two kettles.  I started with an enamel 32 qt and a 
 coffee pot.  I now use the enamel pot for mashing and a ten gal ss pot for 
 sparge water which is then available for boiling when sparging is complete.
 
 js
 
~.

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #812, 01/29/92