FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  re: dry vs liquid yeast; debunking the RS Ale Momily (John Hartman)
  Use of Roasted Barley (John DeCarlo)
  Shipping Beer For Analytical Purposes (John DeCarlo)
  What helps you in competitions? (John DeCarlo)
  Munich Dunkel ? (Ron Karwoski)
  chipped porcelain brew pot (Michael Gildner)
  makkolli (Marc Light)
  More revealing stats:  liquid vs dry yeasts (Stephen Russell)
  Homebrew shops in New York (SOMAK)
  Budvar & Budweiser (Todd Breslow)
  which yeast to use (EDICAMBIO)
  Maltose Falcons Mafaire Competition ("MR. DAVID HABERMAN")
  Makkoli (Daniel Roman)
  Publicly traded microbreweries (Dances with Workstations)
  Larger questions / Wyeast starter problem ? (Tom Riddle)
  Ball valves for 35 gallon kettles (NCDSTEST)
  IBU <-> HBU revisited... (Walter H. Gude)
  AHA Dues Tax Deductable? (Tom Hoff)
  mash/lauter tun (Chris Shenton)
  Definitions of beer styles (Bryan Gros)
  A (gasp) actual Bud Bowl IV Winner!! (John R. Pierce)
  Full Sail Golden Ale recipe (Gene Schultz)
  Profiles, Wyeast (jack schmidling)
  Clean room (Richard Foulk)


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[Please do not send me requests for back issues!]
Archives are available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Mar 92 08:41:14 -0500
From: hartman at varian.varian.com (John Hartman)
Subject: re: dry vs liquid yeast; debunking the RS Ale Momily

This is a question for Steve Stroud, who yesterday posted the results of a
culturing experiment using  RS Ale Yeast.  When the yeast was plated were
there any visible signs of contamination? I.e., did any non-yeast cultures
grow along with the yeast?

Cheers,
John

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Date: Wednesday, 11 Mar 1992 08:23:15 EST
From: m14051 at mwvm.mitre.org (John DeCarlo)
Subject: Use of Roasted Barley

>From: oconnor at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (donald oconnor)

>Chocolate malt adds a dark red hue to beer; i'm not sure what
>color roasted barley adds, maybe the same.

Because of a tip from this very Digest, many years ago, I now use
a few ounces of roasted barley to get a nice reddish hue to my
(otherwise pale) beer.

Internet: jdecarlo at mitre.org (or John.DeCarlo at f131.n109.z1.fidonet.org)
Fidonet:  1:109/131

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Date: Wednesday, 11 Mar 1992 08:24:34 EST
From: m14051 at mwvm.mitre.org (John DeCarlo)
Subject: Shipping Beer For Analytical Purposes

>From: quinnt at turing.med.ge.com (Tom Quinn 5-4291)

>The Professor: Well, actually, beer is mailable with carriers if
>              it is for analytical purposes

>So I guess they aren't able to offer any practical advice on
>getting entries to the regional judgings - I suspect they must
>be very careful about suggesting ways around the regulations.
>Think I could convince a UPS counter guy that I'm sending this
>box to Goose Island Brewery for analytical purposes?

Well, presumably that is *exactly* what you are doing.  The
AHA competition is going to be analyzing your entry.  Of course,
convincing the UPS counter guy is another issue.

Internet: jdecarlo at mitre.org (or John.DeCarlo at f131.n109.z1.fidonet.org)
Fidonet:  1:109/131

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Date: Wednesday, 11 Mar 1992 08:28:03 EST
From: m14051 at mwvm.mitre.org (John DeCarlo)
Subject: What helps you in competitions?

>From:  tpm at spl47.spl.loral.com (Tim P McNerney)

>Stop using examples that prove nothing as evidence that liquid
>yeast is better than dry yeast.  It is probably also true that
>all the winners at the AHA brewed beer and not wine, but this is
>not evidence that beer is better than wine.

Well, this is an ongoing problem, and not related to liquid yeast
use alone.  What about fermenting in glass vs. plastic vs.
stainless steel?  Many winners ferment in stainless steel, for
example.

Most of these examples show nothing but that more experienced
brewers tend to win more in competitions and tend to do fancier
things when brewing.  Beginners tend to do things much simpler
and tend not to win as often.  But one would expect more
experienced people to win more often anyway.

So, how do you determine what is technically better?  You do
studies, with as many factors controlled as possible, and with as
little known to those tasting the results as possible.  Some
clubs have sponsored these studies, some are done for magazines
such as _zymurgy_.  But in general, there is no funding for
homebrewers to perform these types of studies (any advice on
applying for a grant to do this?).

In the absence of thorough and convincing scientific studies
(and look at how much argument there is among the scientific
community even after some of these studies are done), beginners
are more likely to just follow the advice of more experienced
brewer acquaintances or to look at what competition winners do.
In general, their beer will improve from this advice, but there
is also no easy way to quantify the benefit from any one
particular item.

So, proving causality is difficult, but imitating procedures or
ingredient usage of good brewers is about as good a method as most
people have of improving their brewing and their beers.

Internet: jdecarlo at mitre.org (or John.DeCarlo at f131.n109.z1.fidonet.org)
Fidonet:  1:109/131

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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 92 08:19:02 CST
From: rak at mayo.EDU (Ron Karwoski)
Subject: Munich Dunkel ?

Does anyone have an extract based recipe for a Munich Dunkel?
I've checked the Cat's Meow and back issues of Zymurgy, and the
Traditional Beer Styles edition doesn't give any hints to the
extract brewer. Any help is appreciated.
Also, since this years AHA Conference is in my backyard,
relatively speaking, I'd hate to miss out on all the fun. To those who
have been there before, Are any of the events open to nonregistered
attendees? Can I go down there, party with all the other homebrewers
and not attend the conference? What about CLub Night, does this exist
and is it open to all AHA clubs? I'm being extra nice to my wife but
that will probably just get me a weekend away without the conference
fee.
Ron Karwoski                   rak at mayo.edu (internet)

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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 92 08:48:34 EST
From: mmlai!lucy!gildner at uunet.UU.NET (Michael Gildner)
Subject: chipped porcelain brew pot

Hey there,
I've got an enamaled porcelain brew pot with a quarter sized chip in the bottom.  Every time I take the pot out to brew a batch I've got to work hard to remove the recently formed rust on the exposed steel.  Does anyone have any suggestion (aside from buying a new pot) on how to fix the porcelain?  In the mean time, will a little rust be harmful to the wort?

Next, two requests.
Can someone please mail me a copy of the postscript " brewsheet.ps" from mthvax.cs.miami.edu ?
I would like to brew a barleywine similar to SN Bigfoot Ale.  Are there any recipes around?

Last, one idea.
I've found a bottle washer that works pretty good.  I unscrew the sprayer head on the kitchen sink sprayer and use the hose to quickly rinse bottles.  Don't forget to put it back before your wife uses the faucet and gets squirted.

Mike Gildner


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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 92 09:48:53 -0500
From: Marc Light <light at cs.rochester.edu>
Subject: makkolli


I posted to soc.culture.korean a couple of days ago and one of the
readers has kindly offered to send me a three page recipe via snail
mail.  As soon as I get it and the korean speakers in my department
translate it, I'll post it.  


Marc

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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 92 10:33:13 EST
From: srussell at snoopy.msc.cornell.edu (Stephen Russell)
Subject: More revealing stats:  liquid vs dry yeasts

Folks,

I do agree with the sentiment that "if all the winners at the AHA competi-
tion used liquid yeast, all that might prove is that all of the participants 
used liquid yeast."  However, here are some more *complete* statistics:

1990 Competition (1548 entries)

technique		entered		placed 1st, 2nd or 3rd

malt extract		22%		20%
extract + mash		27%		20%
all-grain		51%		60%

glass fermenter		85%		86%
plastic			10%		8%
stainless		5%		5%

2-stage fermentation	74%		77%
single stage		26%		23%

dry yeast		33%		16%
liquid yeast		67%		84%

(source:  1990 Special Issue, Zymurgy, vol. 13 no. 4, p. 61)

The conclusion upon first seeing these is that liquid yeast is the most
important thing you can do to improve your beer, more so than mashing,
lagering or fermenting in glass over plastic, although each of these
seems to be a "step up".

Now, the caveat here is that more experienced, better brewers tend to use
more advanced techniques, so that results attained may be the result of
the technique OR they may be the result of the beer having been brewed by
a more experienced, better brewer.

To me it doesn't matter, the fact that more experienced, better brewers
tend to use a technique is a strong recommendation to me that *I* should
use said technique.  The conclusion is the same.

Besides, the jump from 67% to 84% in liquid yeast cited above is *tremendous* 
evidence that this is a great way to improve your beer.  But again, it is
only correlation, as statistical types will likely point out.

I don't have the numbers on me from 1991 although they were published.
I think the jump in liquid yeast was *not* as high, but that was partly
because the overall % of entries using liquid yeast jumped quite a bit.

Hope this helps, sorry to beat a dead horse (but note that apologies didn't
stop me from posting :-),

STEVE


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Date:    Wed, 11 Mar 92 09:42 PST
From: SOMAK%FITKJES2.BITNET at SEARN.SUNET.SE
Subject: Homebrew shops in New York

Hello.  I have followed HBD some months now and it has been very
interesting.  Some words about my problems.  I am a homebrewer
from Finland, and it is the biggest problem, because of the lack
of the ingredients.  We have grain, of course, and I have done
malts myself (advices about malting procedures would be helpful).
But here I can't buy hops (I have tried some hops for medical
purposes, but they were really bad) or yeast (I have found two
dried yeasts, "Top fermenting" and "Bottom fermenting", but there
was no other information about their types). Now one of my
friends is going to New York next month and I should want to know
if there are any homebrew shops in New York or in Albany(NY). The
question was asked some time ago, but I never saw an answer.
Thanks in advance.

   Markku Koivula
   Statistical Centre of Finland, Helsinki


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Date:         Wed, 11 Mar 92 11:16:01 EST
From: Todd Breslow <V5149U%TEMPLEVM at VM.TEMPLE.EDU>
Subject:      Budvar & Budweiser

"Budvar" and European "Budweiser" are one and the same. To be more
accurate
accurate, Budwesier is the name of the beer itself, and Budvar is
an abbreviated form of (Ceske) Budejovice Pivovar which means simply
Budweiser Brewery -- the name of the comapny.

The bottles themselves have the word "Budweiser" in large, orange
stylized script. A very nice looking bottle, if I may say so.

One of my best beer experiences concerns the real Czech Budweiser
and it makes me absolutely sick to think that AB will someday own
the name/factory (I am a fatalist). I think that when a country
in an economic situation is facing massive investment from a mega-
company like AB that it's very tempting to give in in the name
of "broadening markets," etc. If I understand the Czech people at

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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 92 08:44:17 PST
From: EDICAMBIO at FOLSM3.intel.com
Subject: which yeast to use

i am in the process of brewing my first batch of homebrew with a recipe
that was picked out by my friends as a good starter. i have also just
started to recieve the daily homebrew digest off the vax. in recent issues
there has been alot of talk about dry vs liquid yeast. at this point i am
using "beer kits" with the package of dry yeast in it. i really dont have
an opinion yet on what type of yeast is best(if there is one). my question
is, once you discard the dry yeast package from the kit and start using
the liquid stuff, how do you match up your recipe with the liquid yeast
other than knowing thats it either lager or ale?
ed

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Date: 11 Mar 92 08:47:00 PST
From: "MR. DAVID HABERMAN" <HABERMAND at pl-edwards.af.mil>
Subject: Maltose Falcons Mafaire Competition

                    Regional Homebrewed Beer Competition
            Sponsored by the Maltose Falcons Home Brewing Society
                              (AHA Sanctioned)


Entry forms, fees, and beer entries due:  Friday, April 17, 1992
First Round Judging:  Saturday, April 25, 1992
Awards Ceremony:  Saturday, May 2, 1992
Fee:  $5.00 per entry
Send to:  Home Wine and Beer Making Shop
          22836 Ventura Blvd., Unit #2
          Woodland Hills, CA  91364

          Attention: Mayfaire Homebrewed Beer Competition


All standard AHA categories plus "Designer Beer (no commercial comparison)"
will be judged.

Competitors must enter three 10 to 14 fl. oz. unmarked brown or green glass
crown capped bottles per entry.  You may submit multiple entries within a
subcategory, but only one entry per substyle.  Entries must include a recipe
form and bottle labels attached by rubberband.

For more information, entry, and recipe forms:  write to the Maltose Falcons
at the above address or call Brian Vessa at (310) 826-5902


 - David A. Haberman    <habermand at pl-edwards.af.mil>

Well they worked their will on John Barleycorn, but he lived to tell the tale.
For they pour him out of an old brown jug, and they call him home brewed ale!


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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 92 09:25:29 EST
From: tix!roman at uunet.UU.NET (Daniel Roman)
Subject: Makkoli

I have a Korean friend who is looking into the ingredients and making of
Makkoli.  She believes a large part of the beverage is milk from most
likely a cow or goat (do you still want the info).  She remembers having
this beverage and liking it, but she may also be confusing it with
another.  When I get more info I will pass it on to the digest.


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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 92 13:27:07 EST
From: Dances with Workstations <buchman at marva2.ENET.dec.com>
Subject: Publicly traded microbreweries

I would like to cash in on the increasing popularity of microbrewed beer.
Does anyone know if any of the more prominent microbreweries sell stock?
Specifically, are Anchor Brewing Company, Siera Nevada, or Boston Brewing
Company publicly traded, or are they privately held? Any others?

Quickly scanning the NASDAQ over-the-counter listings, there are entries
for AnchBc (quoting at 5, up 1/8) and BostBc (28 1/4, down 1/4, and they
pay dividends). Are these Anchor and Boston Brewing Companies?
			Thanks,
				Jim Buchman

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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 92 14:08:35 -0500
From: tom at eng.umd.edu (Tom Riddle)
Subject: Larger questions / Wyeast starter problem ?




I am attempting to make my first lager and I have a few questions / problems:

1) I made a starter for the Wyeast #2007 (Pilsen) yeast I bought for this 
   batch.  The yeast seemed to like the starter, as the fermentation lock was
   riding high and sediment eventually formed on the bottom of the bottle, but
   krauesen never formed.  When I went to pitch, I tasted the starter and it
   didn't taste right.  I hesitate to say that it tasted sour, but did have a
   certain tang to it and it sure didn't taste like fermented wort.  It may
   have been a bad move, but I pitched anyway.  So my questions are:
     Did I infect the starter somehow, or this normal behavior for this strain
      of yeast ? (I think krauesen should have formed)
     Did I just make 5gal. of fertilizer ?
     Do people normally pitch the entire starter, or just the sediment ?
     Am I worrying too much ?

   More details on my procedure and timing:
   On Sunday morning I broke the inner pouch of the yeast package that I bought
   the day before, which was date stamped Feb. 19.  By Sunday evening the 
   package had swollen and was bulging at the seems, so I made a starter by 
   disolving 3/4c dried malt extract in 1 1/2 qt boiling water and boiling for
   45mins.  I put about 14oz of this wort in a sanitized 22oz bottle, cooled
   it, and added the contents of the yeast package, then fit the bottle with a
   fermentation lock.  I then let it sit at room temp until I pitched on 
   Wednesday am.

2) Assuming all goes well with the yeast, should I lager in the carboy or
   bottles ?  Miller suggests the bottle approach, and Papazian seems a little
   vague on the whole subject, what do other people do ?  And if I do lager
   in the carboy, should I rack to a secondary first ?  And how long is a good
   lagering period, or is it the longer the better ?


Thanks

Tom Riddle
tom at eng.umd.edu


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Date:    Wed, 11 Mar 1992 14:13:15 -0500 (EST)
From: NCDSTEST at NSSDCA.GSFC.NASA.GOV
Subject: Ball valves for 35 gallon kettles

I am designing a modest size kettle of 43 gallon capacity, yielding
roughly 35 gallons to the primary.  I am looking for relatively 
inexpensive (< $20 ) ball valves with inner diameter of at least 1/2
inch, preferably 3/4 inch.  I intend to use this as the wort grant 
to feed a collection of smaller diameter copper tubing to chill the 
wort.  Any ideas?  Any ideas on size and flow rate for the chiller?

Any large kettles or fermenters out there?  Anyone using V wire screen
or perforated sheet?  Anyone making high percentage wheat beers using
a perforated screen?  If so, what diameter are the holes and what spacing
between the holes??  So many questions...so little brew.

Jim Busch
ncdstest at nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov

Better beer comes from single cells!

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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 92 11:12:49 CST
From: whg at sunfa.tellabs.com (Walter H. Gude)
Subject: IBU <-> HBU revisited...



About a week ago I asked about HBU to IBU conversion.  First of all thanks
for the great response.  Th summary of which follows:

Josh Grosse (amoung others) writes:

<paraphrase>  HBU's may be estimated as

IBU =  HBU * (%utilization / (gallons * 1.34)).

Several sources give the %utilization number as 28% for leaf, 30% for pellet,
given a 60 minute boil of "standard" gravity wort (1.040-1.045).  Plugging
it all in we get IBU=HBU(or AAU)*~4.5. 

While persuing Micheal Jackson's New World Guild to Beer, he references
45 IBUs as extremely bitter.  Now my beers with 10AAUs for 60 min. are 
not overly bitter. Why?  Because like most partial mash brewers, I only
boil about 2.5 gallons of wort.  This means my boil has a gravity of about
1.090 for my "standard" beer.  And my utilization is obviously far less
than 30%.

Does anyone have a formula for %utilization, incorperating gravity
and boil time?  

(I understand that this information may be  buried in a Lotus 1-2-3
spreadsheet authored by the infamous Mr. Richman.)

As always, thanks for the help,
Walter Gude



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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 92 12:24:43 PST
From: Tom Hoff <hoff at sdd.hp.com>
Subject: AHA Dues Tax Deductable?

While perusing the latest issue of Zymergy last night, I saw where Charlie
Papazian wrote that the Association of Brewers (of which the AHA is a
division of) is a non-profit organization, and that donations to them
are tax deductable.  Does this mean that my AHA dues are deductable?
Has anyone used this on their previous tax returns?

- --Tom

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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 92 12:23:36 PST
From: css at CCSF.Caltech.EDU (Chris Shenton)
Subject: mash/lauter tun

On Mar 10, Russ Gelinas <R_GELINAS at UNHH.UNH.EDU > writes:

>    I made a lauter tun this weekend out of a 10 gall. cylindrical
> water cooler and a stainless steel bowl.  I punched about 50 holes
> in the bowl (be careful, the burred edges are *sharp*, ouch!), and
> set it on a small inverted plate in the cooler.  I've heard that
> it's possible to also mash in the cooler.  How is that done?

This is almost the same setup I use: a 10 gallon Gott water cooler and
a plastic collander which just fits in the bottom (beats the heck out
of drilling holes!).

I mash and lauter in it, and I do make sure I mix it up well. Might
even be better to add the grains to hot water, instead of the other
way around. My brew partner insists he gets better efficiency and a
clearer sparge by doing a stove top mash, but I haven't verified his
results :-).

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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 92 12:28:59 PST
From: bgros at sensitivity.berkeley.edu (Bryan Gros)
Subject: Definitions of beer styles

> Could someone post or direct me to a source of the definitions of
> various beer styles?  I'm talking about the specifics for, I guess,
> beer judges; Things like: Color, Weight, Bitterness, Sweetness, etc.
> 
> I could use this to determine if the ale I made last week was
> say, a pale ale, or an IPA (for entering in a contest).

Pick up Fred Eckhard's book, The Essentials of Beer Style. It sounds
like exactly what your looking for, plus he compares different
commercial examples of a given style so you can taste what he's
talking about. It's a great resource for designing a beer recipe.

(I'm not associated with Fred Eckhard, blah blah blah...)

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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1992 11:30:34
From: pierce at pyramid.pyramid.com (John R. Pierce)
Subject: A (gasp) actual Bud Bowl IV Winner!!

Even though this has absolutely nothing to do with HOMEBREW beer, I
thought y'all'd be amused by what I got in the mail yesterday.

My winning ticket in the silly SpudzBowl contest returned me $20...
Seems they got 5,4xx winners total, some guy in Ill. won the  $1,000,000
and the rest of us split the $100,000 (which came to $18.xx which they
actually rounded up to $20!).

And on the questionnaire on the back of the winning card, I checked
[X]  Other _________________   and filled in "Sierra Nevada Pale Ale"
for my favorite beer.  I figured they'd throw me out for sure...   ;-)

Or (gasp) maybe they'll try and buy Sierra to go with Budvar ??? (bad
dream!)

On a slightly different note, someone told me that Spuds new Spokesperson,
Kathy Ireland, is a Homebrewer herself.  I find that hard to beleive!

    -jrp



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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 92 14:47:44 PST
From: gschultz at cheetah.llnl.gov (Gene Schultz)
Subject: Full Sail Golden Ale recipe

In HBD #825 I posted a recipe for a Full Sail Golden Ale taste-alike.
(I neglected in the posting to state that the recipe was for Full Sail
*Golden*, not Full Sail Amber or Brown Ale.)  Anyway, I received a
number of interesting and helpful responses to my posting.  One of the
most enlightening of these responses was from someone who had obtained
some information from Hood River Brewing Company suggesting that some of
the ingredients used in Full Sail Golden Ale are different from the
ones indicated in my recipe.  The source of this information, which
indicates that Hallertau and Tettnanger hops are used in both Full Sail
Golden and Amber ales, is a *coaster* from the brewery itself.  My recipe
calls for nugget hops, however, because the *label* on Full Sale Golden
Ale bottles states that nugget hops are used.

Can anyone help us resolve this contradictory information?  I have been
told that "Jamie" of the Hood River Brewing Company could do so--does
anyone know how to get in touch with him?

Thanks in advance,

                                  Gene Schultz
                                  Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory
                                  schultz3 at llnl.gov

P.S.--Meanwhile, I just tasted the first bottle of the second batch of
ale I have made with the recipe I posted, and the taste is pretty
similar (albeit not quite as succulent tasting as Full Sail Golden
Ale).  My impression is that the Hallertau/Tettnanger hops taste is
pretty evident in the *amber* ale, but I can't pick up this taste in
the *golden* ale.  I could be wrong, though, and am curious about the 
outcome of this one...

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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 92 21:28 CST
From: arf at gagme.chi.il.us (jack schmidling)
Subject: Profiles, Wyeast

 
 To: Homebrew Digest
 Fm: Jack Schmidling
 
 >From: Mark J. Easter <easterm at ccmail.orst.edu>
 >Subject: Flavor profiles of roasted malts and barley
  
 >         Last week I brewed an all-grain scottish ale.  The recipe
           called for 2 oz of roasted barley and 3 oz of chocolate
           malt. Can any of you enlighten me on the relative flavor profiles
           of the various kilned malts and roasted barleys?
 
 
 I know nothing about "profiles" but I would be amazed if two ounces of 
 roasted barley could be detected by even the most gifted nose.
 
 I decided to put my own nose to work and made three batches as follows:
 
  one lb roasted barley
  one lb roasted malt
  one lb each
 
 The balace was Klages and a total of 9 lbs for 5 gal.
 
 I was unable to tell the difference by taste or smell between roasted malt 
 and barley.  They both tasted and smelled like coffed to me.
 
 They both had a distinct coffee flavor early but towards the end of the keg, 
 it was not detectable as coffee just a richer flavor.  In a side by side 
 comparison, the roasted barley has a bit of an oatmeal kind of taste and we 
 (my wife and I) liked the roasted malt better.
 
 Either was a definite improvement on our light generic ale.
 
 The combination batch is in the secondary, waiting for an empty keg.  It has 
 a pronounced coffee taste but I suspect if it mellows out like the other two, 
 it could be quite excellent.
 
 So, I think you are waisting your time with ounces.
 
 >From: STROUD <STROUD%GAIA at leia.polaroid.com>
 
 >I know where I stand on the issue of dry vs liquid yeasts: I changed to 
 single cell cultures a long time ago and haven't looked back. 
 
 Although the rest of your article is science at its best, not looking back is 
 definitely not very scientific.
 
 >Hidden in the midst of the on-going dry vs liquid (single cell culture) 
 yeast debate is what appears to be a universal condemnation of Red Star Ale 
 yeast.  Well, I'm here to come to the defense of Red Star Ale yeast and to 
 break a momily:
 
 >Red Star ale is actually a nice, clean somewhat unattenuative yeast.  It's 
 the other crap inside the yeast packet that causes all of the problems.
 
 Let us make sure we have correctly identified the "momily" in question.
 
 Your article proves conclusively that selecting for survival of the drying 
 process does not restrict the other characters needed to make a good beer.
 
 It also proves that the drying/packaging process (as done by Red Star) is 
 subject to contamination.
 
 Both are totally reasonable conclusions and not inconsistant with my position 
 before or after reading the article.
 
 >To answer this question, Sheri Almeda cultured Red Star Ale yeast on agar 
 plates and isolated four single cell yeast cultures.
 
 I am having a hard time understanding what this means.  Are these four 
 colonies from each of which a single cell was taken?  Were they chosen 
 because they were the same or because they were different?
 
 The results would indicate that they were probably the same or similar enough 
 to be irrelevant.  
 
 What else did they find on the original culture?  If the contamination is 
 biological, they should have found either bacteria or an evil yeast in the 
 culture.
 
 It also sounds like the control sample was taken from a different packet.
 
 >This experiment also points out the problem with using dry yeast.  You just
 never know what's going to come out of that little packet.  Even though the
 dried yeast was very viable and got off to a fast start, the final product 
 had a contamination problem."
 
 This also points to the solution to the problem.  All the discussion about 
 the selection problems is null and void.  We need only come up with a sterile 
 drying and packaging process.
 
 However, it is becomming obvious that the real problem may not be what all 
 this talk is about.  
 
 The use of a liquid yeast could be (and probably is) only a bit more 
 complicated then pitching a properly re-hydrated dry yeast.  If the results 
 are as much better as users contend, then the resistance must lie elsewhere.
 
 The obvious elswhere is price.  There is an great reluctance to use something 
 that costs 10 times what an acceptable alternative costs.
 
 There are lots of ways the user can reduce his cost but it takes more effort 
 and unless he does a lot of brewing, he risks the evils he is trying to 
 avoid.
 
 I suspect making money culturing and selling yeast to homebrewers is marginal 
 at best and aside from simplyfing the package, not much can be done to reduce 
 the cost at the current levels of production.
 
 >So there you have it.  The problem isn't RS ale yeast, it's the _purity_ of 
 the yeast.
 
 Translated: The problem is what's in the package of RS ale yeast.
 
 It all boils down to the same thing.  Don't use it!
 
 The only way they will ever fix it is if people stop buying it.
 
 >Any comments???
 
 Nothing comes to mind at the moment :)
 
 >From: gummitch at techbook.com (Jeff Frane)
 
 >As far as Mr Schmidling's opinions on the best way to package yeast, I
 would suggest that having the yeast and nutrient in one package was the
 whole point!
 
 The business world is littered with failures who missed the point.
 
 > and in fact largely responsible for the success of WYeast.
 
 It now seems to be largely responsible for a great deal of frustration.
 
 >I am also very aware of the huge amount of effort that Dave is putting
 into correcting the problem with his packaging, a problem that was
 neither inherent in the design
 
 If the package does not do what it is supposed to do it IS a design problem.
 
 > nor of his own doing.
 
 Is the Devil making his packaging decisions?
 
 >WYeast is considering adding some new strains of yeast to their existing
 line. These would sell for less money than the current package, and
 would NOT include a starter. 
 
 Sounds like he has been reading my mind.  But why "new strains"?  Why not 
 sell the tried and proven ones without starter?  Why not just a lower cost 
 option for brewers willing to do a little more fiddling?
 
 My advice is to pick a standard ale and market the hell out of it.  If they 
 got the volume up, there is no reason why they could not drive dry yeast off 
 the shelves.  They are destroying any chances of economies of scale by 
 spreading themselves so thin.
 
 Hmmm.  No more free advice.  
 
 Can someone recommend a "standard ale" yeast?
 
 Stand by for:
 
                 ARF GENERIC LIQUID ALE YEAST
                     Still only a buck.
 
 js

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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 92 21:53:49 HST
From: richard at pegasus.com (Richard Foulk)
Subject: Clean room

> [...]                    If there's a bacterial infection, I blame
> environment (dusty basement, etc.) or technique (sanitizing the racking tube
> and then putting it on top of the drier, etc.).  This brings up a point I
> haven't noticed in HBD: I transfer from kettle to primary and primary to
> secondary in my laundry room -- I make it a point to NOT USE THE DRIER
> FOR AT LEAST TWO DAYS BEFORE DOING BEER TRANSFER.  The dust that gets
> kicked up is sure to find it's way into the beer.

Use an old darkroom trick ...

To keep dust from landing on your negatives, etc., you walk around the
room with an atomizer spraying water mist high in the air and letting it
settle.

For brewing I do this about a half-hour before brewing, and I use some
dilute sterilizing solution instead of plain water.

It makes a noticeable difference in the darkroom, so why not in
the home brewery ...


- -- 
Richard Foulk		richard at pegasus.com

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #842, 03/12/92