FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  We're Back (Homebrew Digest Guy)
  re: Airstat (Gregory_Crawford.Wbst129)
  draft systems? (Nick Zentena)
  hops (Russ Gelinas)
  TSP/RATC (korz)
  Light-struck beer (korz)
  Anchor IBU (korz)
  newbie questions (Edward Peschko)
  First Round Final ("Rad Equipment")
  First Round Final                     Time:11:03 AM    Date:4/27/92
  Malting (Scott Bickham)
  Pepper experience (chrisbpj)
  Pilsner from 1-step Infusion? (Jon Binkley)
  Re: Competition Question (korz)
  whitbread ale yeast (C05705DA)
  Kegs and Propane (stevie)
  Fining without cruelty (PHILLIPSA)
  Re: Warning about BAA (Brian Davis)
  Dandelion Wine (Jack Schmidling)
  USE OF GELATIN (Eric Rose)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:  Wed, 29 Apr 1992
From: Rob Gardner (Homebrew Digest Guy)
Subject: We're Back

In case you were all wondering what happened to the digest on Tuesday
and Wednesday, here's the story. Late Monday afternoon, a manager
armed with our root password though that my disk was a tape drive
and successfully wrote a tar image to it, thus destroying part of the
filesystem containing all the digest scripts. I just finished piecing
it all back together, and I think the digest should pick up where
it left off. Thank you all for relaxing and not freaking out!

Rob


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Date: 	Mon, 27 Apr 1992 06:18:23 PDT
From: Gregory_Crawford.Wbst129 at xerox.com
Subject: re: Airstat


>Help!!  A while back I asked for a mail order source for a Hunter Airstat but
>got no replies...

I just bought an Airstat from American Brewmaster (I think that was the name).
They advertised the airstat in the latest issue of Zymurgy.  I don't have the
info here at work but if you let me know I will bring in the magazine and send
you the info.

Greg

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Date: 	Sun, 26 Apr 1992 20:00:00 -0400
From: Nick Zentena <nick.zentena at canrem.com>
Subject: draft systems?


        Hi,
                Has anybody used the beer ball draft system?
                Also  does anybody know about the Canadian
                availabilty of the product. How about a non
                1-800 number for the company?

                Thanks
                Nick
- ---
  DeLuxe 1.21 #9621  nick.zentena at canrem.com
- --
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario/Detroit, MI
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044

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Date:    Mon, 27 Apr 1992 11:25:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: R_GELINAS at UNHH.UNH.EDU (Russ Gelinas)
Subject: hops

  A couple of hops questions:

  It is thought to be a good idea to allow just 3 or 4 shoots to grow.  I've 
got a plant with 6 very healthy shoots. I was thinking of having 3 lines, with 
2 shoots on each line.  Good idea? Bad idea?

  Does the method of making a plant split into 2 main branches by snipping
off the top work for hops?

Russ

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Date: Mon, 27 Apr 92 11:26 CDT
From: korz at ihlpl.att.com
Subject: TSP/RATC

jal writes:
>2. What are the preferred cleaners/sanitizers for stainless? I 
>know of those who swear by between TSP or Iodophor, and one who 
>even uses bleach with minimum exposure.

It is my understanding (from Charlie's TCJoHB, I believe) that TSP
(trisodium phosphate) is a good cleaner (for label removal, I believe),
but not a sanitizer.  I believe George Fix introduced Iodophor to the
HBD and recommends it for SS because Chlorine Bleach reacts with SS.

I purchased a bottle of Iodophor a few months ago, but had been
hesitant to use it, not knowing the proper concentration to use.
As an experiment, I bottled a batch where half the bottles were
sanitized with 200ppm Iodophor and half with 200ppm Chlorine Bleach.
After sanitizing (with one of those Italian-made, red-and-white
bottle sanitizers) I rinsed with hot tapwater using my Jet bottle
washer.

Two weeks later, all the Iodophor bottles have ring-around-the-collar.
None of the Bleach bottles do (yet -- see NOTICE).

NOTICE:  I had recently developed a ring-around-the-collar problem
in my brewery (read, basement).  I was using 100-200ppm Chlorine
Bleach but was not changing it (I would used the same gallon of
sanitizing solution for the entire batch -- bad idea).  I had gotten
cocky and my sanitation had become lax.  I've since become more
careful when sanitizing and have not had problems with the ring-around
 -the-collar (knock on wood).  Note, that some bottles had more RATC
and some had less.  Some brews did not have any.  When it did appear,
it would show up as pinhead-sized dots at the liquid level, unevenly
spaced around the entire circumferance.  I will check for a correlation
with dryhopping tonight.

I just re-read a personal email conversation with George, who said that
the Chlorine in my municipal water will (to some degree) counteract
the Iodophor.  He suggested that I add more Iodophor till a "good color
is established."  Hmmm. Maybe I should have added more Iodophor?
The Iodophor I'm using has an indicator which makes the solution amber
when it is working and clear when it should be changed.  The solution
I used was about the color of American Light Lager.  Maybe I should
have added Iodophor till the color was like Bass Ale?  George?  Maybe
the problem is in my water (Palos Hills municipal -- purchased from
Chicago South branch)?

Has anyone identified the creature(s) responsible for ring-around-the
 -collar?  I assume it's aerobic since it only hangs out at the liquid
level.  I have not tasted any acidity in any of my RATC brews -- I had
assumed, therefore, that it was a mold.  In fact, I have not noticed any
ill-effects from the RATC other than cosmetic.  Comments?

Al.

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Date: Mon, 27 Apr 92 11:37 CDT
From: korz at ihlpl.att.com
Subject: Light-struck beer

I had read in the HBD, that a week or two in the dark at 50F will "cure"
light struck beer.  I just finished a six of Newcastle Brown Ale.  I recall
that the beer was stored at room temp under fluorescent lights in the store.
The first bottle (1 day of chilling at 50F) smelled skunky.  Subsequent
bottles (after a week or so at 50F) did not have a skunky smell.  Anyone
else notice this phenomenon?
Al.

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Date: Mon, 27 Apr 92 11:54 CDT
From: korz at ihlpl.att.com
Subject: Anchor IBU

Bryan writes:
>I  was designing my recipe for my steam beer (see post above) and
>bought some Northern Brewer hops.  The store said 8.5% AA.  I
>noticed most recipes for an Anchor-type beer said 13 or 14 HBUs.
>This means about 1.5oz in my 5-gallon batch.
>
>I checked Eckhardt and he said steam beer:  35-40 IBUs.  I decided
>to take the plunge and figure out IBUs.  If I use the formula in
>Papazian or the Zymurgy issue, I get something like 1/2 oz for 60min.
>(Don't have the formula with me).  So how can these two different
>measurements be off by so much?  Is this why all my beers so far
>have been pretty darn hoppy?
>Should I just switch to IBU calculations and go by experience? 
> I ended up comprimising and using 3/4 oz for 60min, 1/4 oz for
>30 min, and 1/3oz for flavoring.  I have no idea what it will taste
>like.

You goofed in your calculations somewhere.  According to the Zymurgy
Hop Special Issue (I use this issue so much I should buy another one ;^),
"Steam"-clones should have 40 IBU.  According to the calculations in
the Hop Special Issue, if you are making 5 gallons with a boiling gravity
under 1050 and want 40 IBU using a 60 minute boil of 8.5%AA hops, you
should use 1.051077 ounces of hops.  I suggest rounding to 1 oz.

I don't have my copy here at work so I cannot accurately calculate the
actual IBU you used (you didn't post the boil gravity anyway), but
a thumbnail calculation would indicate you got somewhere around 32 IBU.

DON'T DISCOUNT BOIL GRAVITY -- I DID ONCE ON A 1084 BOIL AND WILL NEVER
FORGET TO DO IT AGAIN!  The IPA I made would go well on pancakes.

Al.

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Date: Mon, 27 Apr 92 12:18:20 CDT
From: peschko at mermaid.micro.umn.edu (Edward Peschko)
Subject: newbie questions

hello all....

Forgive me for some newbie questions... but are there any good sources 
(catalogs, shops near the minneapolis area, etc.) for starting up shop (in
brewing and/or vinting)? What are the essential things I am going to need, 
how much space am I going to need, etc... etc... etc... Email me at 
peschko at mermaid.micro.umn.edu, please.

Thanks a lot,

Ed

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Peschko			"Gentlemen... you can't fight in here!
peschko at mermaid.micro.umn.edu	This is the WAR ROOM!!!!" -Peter Sellers
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Date: 27 Apr 92 11:27:17 U
From: "Rad Equipment" <rad_equipment at rad-mac1.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: First Round Final

Subject:  First Round Final                     Time:11:03 AM    Date:4/27/92
Well we are finally finished here in San Francisco.  We concluded our judging
of 761 entries this past Saturday.  With the exception of having a few larger
flights than we'd have liked, everything went pretty much as we planned.

I'd like to say "Thanks!" to all who participated.  We had a great turnout of
judges, stewards, and volunteers.

Special "Thanks!" to Bruce Joseph and Anchor for allowing us to disrupt the
brewery for the month of April.

Now on to Milwaukee!

RW...

      Russ Wigglesworth              CI$:      72300,61
|~~|  UCSF Medical Center            Internet: Rad Equipment at RadMac1.ucsf.edu
|HB|\ Dept. of Radiology, Rm. C-324  Voice:    415-476-3668 / 474-8126 (H)
|__|/ San Francisco, CA 94143-0628


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Date: Mon, 27 Apr 92 14:31:38 EDT
From: bickham at msc2.msc.cornell.edu (Scott Bickham)
Subject: Malting

Richard Foulk asks,

> * Is the main purpose of kilning, for light malts, simply to add color
>   and a slightly different flavor to the brew?  Or does it play some
>    other important role?  I've heard it said that it stops the malting
>    process, but drying seems to do that quite well.

> * Is there something that I can safely mix with the steep water that
>    will retard bacteria growth (keep the grain from going sour)
>    without adversely affecting the malt?  (I currently do a lot of
>    rinsing after the steep, every few hours or so, but this seems to
>    speed up the sprouting process more than is preferrable.)

> * Is there an easy way to remove the roots from the grain?  Is it really
>    necessary to bother?

1.  Kilning is important because it begins the destruction of the enzymes,
    which is continued into the mash process.  Ordinary drying will not do
    this.  Kilning the malts also changes the color of malts by producing
    melanoidins via the Maillard reaction.  DMS is also destroyed in the
    strong kilning that pale ale malts undergo.

2.  Alkaline steep waters can check microbial growth and steep phenolic
    materials from the grain.  Non-Reinheitsgebot maltsters sometimes use
    gibberic acid or potassium bromate to reduce malting losses.  A
    decent reference on this is "Malting and Brewing Science", ed. by
    D.E. Briggs et.al., London; New York: Chapman and Hall (1981-82). I
    don't know if you can find this book, but it is kept on reserve here
    at one of the Cornell libraries.

3.  I remember reading that if the malt is dried correctly, then the roots
    fall off very easily.  They actually have a high nutritional value for
    livestock, so maltsters go through great efforts to recover and sell
    the roots.

Keep us posted - this is something I'm interested in trying someday.

Scott

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Date: Mon, 27 Apr 92 12:39:35 -0400
From: chrisbpj at ldpfi.dnet.dupont.com
Subject: Pepper experience


Sorry I'm lagging a bit on my response, but I did want to put in my 2"
worth.  A while back, my brother decided to try making some stir-fry
dish from scratch.  The recipe called for roasted red peppers (the HOT
kind...).  My mom and I just just happened to be in the house at the
time he decided to roast the peppers...

He put them in a small skillet and started dry-roasting them on the
stove.  After a few seconds, they started giving off a light smoke. 
All of a sudden, my brother started coughing like he couldn't stop,
then ran outside with the skillet.  I went into the kitchen to see if
he was alright, and I started coughing too.  I had to run outside and
join him, where we both just stood there coughing.  After about 10
minutes, we were finally able to go back into the kitchen.  We ended
up opening all the doors just to get rid of the fumes.  When we'd
finally thought the house was pretty much free of fumes, we heard this
endless coughing coming from upstairs - turns out the fumes had drifted
up there too!  

Anyway, the moral of this story is, if you're planning on roasting red
peppers (for beer, or whatever), do it outside on the barbecue and
wear a bandana - the fumes are unbearable!  BTW, the peppers tasted
great!

 -Pete


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Date: Mon, 27 Apr 92 14:09:14 -0600
From: Jon Binkley <binkley at beagle.Colorado.EDU>
Subject: Pilsner from 1-step Infusion?


Ok, I finally ordered a refrigerator thermostat and I hope to make
my first lager this weekend, a pilsner.

I know that these are traditionally made from less modified
malts which require a protein rest, but I plan to use
fully modified British pale malt and do a single stage
infusion in a picnic cooler, unless someone here can
successfully talk me out of it.

Are there any *REAL* problems with making a pilsner from
British malt, such as serious off flavors?  I know the
color should be okay, since I've made very pale beers
from the same malt.

Thanks for your consideration,
Jon Binkley


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Date: Mon, 27 Apr 92 15:32 CDT
From: korz at ihlpl.att.com
Subject: Re: Competition Question

>I have a few corrections to Roger's "What Happens to my Three Bottles"
>story.  What Roger wrote is sort-of correct for the way is used to
>be before the change to the two-round regional/national system.
>
>On competition day, a couple dozen judges gather in Goose Island's
>banquet room. They sit three to a table, and each table will judge one
>type of beer. I am a German Bock, and one of my three bottles is brought

Not exactly.  Under the new system, only one beer is required for the
first round.  "Winners" of the first round (three beers in each category)
are notified (by May 8th this year, I believe) and asked to send another
two bottles for the second round judging.  I don't know exactly what
happens to the extra bottles if brewers send three instead of one to the
first round.

>to their table along with the other German Bocks. The judges open each
>bottle, pour a bit into a glass, and judge it.

>Then the winner of each category goes into "Best of Show". The most
>senior judges gather a second bottle of the winning beer from each
>category up from the cooler at a large table, and begin. An immediate
>problem: When opening one of the other beers, a Munich Weissbeer, it
>gushes all over. The judges figure it must be a bad cap, since the first
>bottle of that same Weiss was so good, and so they fetch the third bottle
>for that entry. It is OK. Finally, it's down to just us and a really good
>British Bitter. Two beers left. The judges, however, have used all the
>beer in my second bottle already - so out comes my third bottle, and the
>third bottle of that ESB, which the judges open and compare. **WE WIN**
>My maker's German Bock is the Best of Show, and he gets a nice engraved
>pewter beer stein.

Not quite.  The brewer's are asked to send a second and third bottle for
the second round.  One of these bottles will be used for the second round
judging.  The other will be used if the beer wins first place in the
category and goes on to the "Best of Show" judging.

Al.

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Date:         Mon, 27 Apr 92 15:58:50 CST
From: C05705DA at WUVMD.Wustl.Edu
Subject:      whitbread ale yeast

I'm relaying some info i've heard.  I don't know if it's true or not but
Whitbead will be discontinueing their dry ale yeast. that's all.

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Date: Mon, 27 Apr 92 17:27:59 CDT
From: stevie at spss.com
Subject: Kegs and Propane

Richard Stern <rstern at col.hp.com> asks, in reference to converting a keg and
using a propane cooker:

>a) Are kegs stainless?
>b) Do I need a lid?  Or do I just brew without one?
>c) Any concerns about brewing in my garage or back yard?
>d) Where can I find a large propane cooker??

Simply put:  a) yes; b) no; c) no problem in your backyard; propane cookers are
not recommended for indoor use, but you can get away with it if your area is
VERY WELL ventilated (open windows, doors); d) many sources -- Alternative
Beverage in NC sells the simple and effective Cajun Cooker, as do others.

I've used a propane burner for over a year now, and definitely recommend one 
as a fairly inexpensive alternative to slow, stove top boiling.  If you thought
you had a good rolling boil before, think again.  You'll also easily cut an
hour off your brewing schedule by reaching that boil substantially faster.  Go
for it!

- --------

Steve Hamburg    Internet:  stevie at spss.com
SPSS Inc.        Phone:     312/329-3445
Chicago, IL      Fax:       312/329-3657

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Date: Mon, 27 Apr 92 9:36 GMT
From: PHILLIPSA at LARS.AFRC.AC.UK
Subject: Fining without cruelty

Dear HBD,

I usually fine my beer, a day or two before moving from secondary
to barrel, with either gelatin or ininglass. This works fine, and
I get crytal-clear beer after 4-5 days in barrel (of course, it
may clear OK without fining, but I've never tried it). The problem is,
my partner is a vegetarian, and objects to my putting animal products
in the beer she drinks. Up to now, I've managed to convince her that
all the fining agent drops out of the final product, but I'm not sure
that's too convincing. My question is: is there a fining agent which
I can use with a clear conscience? 

I brew mainly ales with the occasional Pilsner (the latter brews tend
to be significantly cloudier, probably protein haze due to my
inefficient decoction mash technique).

P.S. Can someone send me an address/phone/FAX number for Zymurgy
so that I can get an overseas subscription?

Thanks in advance,

Andy Phillips,
Long Ashton Research Stn,
Agricultural & Food Research Council
Bristol, BS18 9AF
UK
Internet: PHILLIPSA at LARS.AFRC.AC.UK


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Date: Mon, 27 Apr 92 12:56:17 pdt
From: Brian Davis <brian%mbf.uucp at ics.uci.edu>
Subject: Re: Warning about BAA

radavfs at ube.ub.umd.edu said:

	>Well, brewers, I was one of those remarkably excited about BAA when
	>I heard about it, but when I called I was sorely disappointed - not
	>about the company, which sounds magnificent, but about the factthat
	>that they only ship to IL and surrounding states (WI,MN,IA,IN,KY
	>or wherever, but definiftely not to MD!).

When did you call them?  When I first heard about them a few months ago,
they wouldn't ship to CA but were planning to soon.  Last week they signed
me up.  Sorry, but I don't have their number handy.  Try information at
800-555-1212.

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Date: Mon, 27 Apr 92 23:28 CDT
From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Dandelion Wine

 
 To: Homebrew Digest
 Fm: Jack Schmidling
 
 >From: michael at frank.polymer.uakron.edu (Micheal Yandrasits)
 
 >Has anyone out ther made dandelion wine?
 
 Great minds travel the same roads.  My wife and I were poring over my 
 collection of winemaking books trying to integrate all the recipes and 
 procedure into one that makes sense.  Talk about contradictions and 
 momilies...  
 
 Steep one day... steep seven days.
 Remove all the green calixes..  don't bother.
 Steep in boiling water...  never boil.
 Don't steep at all, just ferment the whole mess.
 
 My wife spotted a vacant factory with about an acre of yellow but you just 
 know the day we go to pick, the lawn mowers will be pulling away.
 
 I am pure culturing Red Star champaign yeast for this project so I can't 
 start till the yeast is ready and we are shooting for this weekend.
 
 >I'm up scaling the following 1 gallon recipie:
 
         4 pints dandelion flowers (as little "green" as possible)
         18 oz chopped sultanas (white raisins)
    
 Thank you.... we were wondering what sultanas were...  My wife suggested 
 sultans' wives.
 
 
         1 1/2 lbs corn sugar
         3 teaspoons citric acid
         2 camden tablets
 
 Here is what we came up with:
 
 4  gallons dandelions
 4  gallons water
 8  lemmons
 4  lb raisins
 10 lb sugar
 
 
 Bring water to boil.  Dump in the stuff and pitch when cool.
 
 >The recipie calls for making a "dandelion tea" by steeping the flowers in
 a warm water for 24 hours.  I've done this part and the "tea" is a yellow-
 brown color with a very grassy smell and taste.  Is this what is supposed to
 happen? I've tasted and smelled the flowers very carefully and quite frankly
 they don't taste like much at all. Will some "magic" happen durring fementation
 and aging (not at all uncommon in this type of endevor)?
  
 I think the whole thing is a conspiracy.  It seems like dandelion wine is to 
 wine what Bud is to beer.  I made some years ago but have no recollection of 
 how or what it tasted like but like you, I was itching to give it a whirl.
 
 Keep us posted.
 
 >From: richard at pegasus.com (Richard Foulk)
 
 > * Is the main purpose of kilning, for light malts, simply to add color
     and a slightly different flavor to the brew?  Or does it play some
     other important role?  I've heard it said that it stops the malting
     process, but drying seems to do that quite well.
 
 All of those sound pretty important to me.  One you missed is that it would 
 rot during the 4 to six week curing period if the water content was not 
 reduced to very low levels.
 
 The most obvious and important probably is the taste.  It just does not taste 
 like malt if just dried.  The kilining brings out the sweet malty flavor.
 
 
 > * Is there something that I can safely mix with the steep water that
     will retard bacteria growth (keep the grain from going sour)
     without adversely affecting the malt?  (I currently do a lot of
     rinsing after the steep, every few hours or so, but this seems to
     speed up the sprouting process more than is preferrable.)
 
 Rinsing three or four times a day should keep the bacteria to undetectable 
 levels and is just good hygene.  Anything you mix with the grain will be 
 absorbed and get into the beer.  Stick with water.
 
 > * Is there an easy way to remove the roots from the grain?  Is it really
     necessary to bother?
 
 By the time it is ready to kiln, they sort of take care or themselves.  I 
 just reverse the drying fan and they just blow away.
 
 >Some have said that feedstore barley has the wrong protein content for
 making beer.  I don't buy this.  It may be inappropriate for some
 styles of beer, or for making light beers.
 
 The only problem I have had with feedstore barley is a 50% viability which 
 means that 50% of my malt is rotting barley.  As I had no other source, I 
 gave up.
 
 BTW, congratualtions on taking home brewing one step further.  No one will 
 accuse you of being a cake mix brewer.
 
 js
 
 
 

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Date: 28 Apr 92 07:40:21 EDT
From: CHUCKM at csg3.Prime.COM

Greetings fellow homebrewers...

   Can somebody please tell me/ post / re-post  where I may get
 copies of Cat's Meow and Cat's Meow  the Sequel...

Please reply to   chuckm at csg3.prime.com

Thanks in advance......

chuckm

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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 92 19:40:40 EDT
From: Eric Rose <rose at aecom.yu.edu>
Subject: USE OF GELATIN

Continuing the questions about finings:

How do people like to use gelatin in beer?  Does it work for clarification?
It's supposed to snag the suspended yeast and pull it to the bottom.
If I put gelatin in at bottling time, will I have problems with achieving
carbonation?  Will I get carbonation at all?

Please advise.
thanks.

- -- 
          ***************************************
          *                                     *
          * Eric Rose                           *
          * Albert Einstein College of Medicine *
          * 1300 Morris Park Avenue             *
          * Bronx, NY 10461 USA                 *
          *                                     *
          * INTERNET:  rose at aecom.yu.edu        *
          *                                     *
          ***************************************

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #873, 04/30/92