FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Re: simple yeast-starter recipe, cherry mead (Jason Goldman)
  State with the most ... (Peter Karp)
  Aeration of chilled wort (John Palkovic)
  dehumidifier water for brewing... (Dan Kerl)
  small break (Russ Gelinas)
  Beer in L.A. (Scott Weintraub)
  Re: Brett & Pedio (korz)
  recipe request (C05705DA)
  Read retention (korz)
  Brewpubs in Atlanta? (Eric Mintz)
  Yeast culturing on potatoes? (Eric Mintz)
  formula for calories (Dr. Robert Bradley)
  FEWEST brewpubs per capita (S94WELKER)
  Wyeat datum (Dr. Robert Bradley)
  Calories in Beer (George Fix)
  Brewing supply stores (JLAWRENCE)
  re: Kriek 'n' yeast (Don Scheidt)
  mineral content of my water (John Fitzgerald)


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Date: Mon, 1 Jun 92 08:01:37 -0600
From: Jason Goldman <jason at gibson.sde.hp.com>
Subject: Re: simple yeast-starter recipe, cherry mead

Chuck Coronella <CORONELLRJDS at CHE.UTAH.EDU> writes:
> 1)  Can someone post a _simple_ recipe for a yeast starter?  I know that I
> can just use a liter or so of wort, but what if I don't want to brew an
> entire batch?  I know the ingredients; it's the quantities about which I'm
> concerned.  How much extract (prefer volume), how much hops, for, say a
> quart of water?  Can corn sugar (dextrose) be used?  (It's easy to measure
> small quantites, compared to malt extract, which is gooey, and is generally
> a mess.)  I've tried bottling wort, but nasties always manage to get in the
> bottle, and in a few months I've got a glass grenade on my hands.
>
I've found it useful to keep a bag of *dried* malt extract around just for
making starters.  I'm not a chemist or anything so I don't measure it in
any real detail, but for a quart I'd use something on the order of 1/4 cup.
I sometimes use a couple of hop cones.  Or not.

Jason
jason at gibson.sde.hp.com

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Date: Mon, 1 Jun 92 10:11:09 EDT
From: karp at ground.cs.columbia.edu (Peter Karp)
Subject: State with the most ...

Just to confirm the brewpub tally for Vermont: There are 2 brewpubs in
Brattleboro, The Latchis and Three-Dollar Dewey's.  I think they are on the
same block giving Brattleboro,VT the honor of the only city with 2 brewpubs on
the same  block.



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Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1992 09:14:21 -0500
From: John Palkovic <johnp at lupulus.ssc.gov>
Subject: Aeration of chilled wort

In HBD #892 Larry Barello <polstra!larryba at uunet.UU.NET> writes:

LB> Another nifty little gadget you can make with 6" of surplus
LB> tubing: Drill several 1/16" holes around the tubing about one inch
LB> from one end.  Stick that end into the outlet of your
LB> chiller/racking hose.  WHen racking the holes will suck in air and
LB> aerate your wort.  No need to shake the carboy after using one of
LB> these gizmos.

Not a bad idea. Here is another way.

I have been getting excellent aeration by racking the chilled wort
from my boiler into a small funnel resting atop my carboy. By
directing the stream against the side of the funnel, you get a
significant amount of vorticity in the fluid mass in the funnel. This
creates a falling tubular wort stream below the funnel, which tends to
break up into small droplets.

 -John Palkovic

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Date: Mon, 1 Jun 92 9:15:33 CDT
From: kerl at cmack.b11.ingr.com (Dan Kerl)
Subject: dehumidifier water for brewing...

As I understand it, condensation water from refrigeration equipment
(particularly air conditioning equipment) has been identified as the habitat
of the pathogen responsible for causing "Legionaire's Disease". I suspect
that a prolonged boil would wipe this out.  Another thing that I've noticed
about condenation water is the funky "plastic-like" odor it carries, probably
resulting from all the airborne junk that gets sucked-in to the appliance
along with the moisture-laden air. A decent activated-charcoal water filter
might extract this. All in all, condensate could be a good source of soft
water, if it can be cleaned-up. After all, you could always say "It's in
the water.." ;-)
					Dan Kerl
					kerl at cmack.b11.ingr.com

(break to fast-paced '60-style action music with bongos...)
"See that big old bear over there, lappin' up all that good ol' country
 water?  Why, they say he can drink 30 gallons of water a day. Sure makes a 
 big hairy guy like me thirsty, which is why I like to wrap my lips around an
 ice-cold edible bottle of good ol' country Bear Whiz Beer. As my daddy told
 me, 'son, it's in the water - that's why it's yellow!' Bear Whiz Beer!"
(Bear Whiz Brewery  St. Louis Mo)

			     -- Proctor, Bergman, Ossman & Austin
                                a.k.a. the Firesign Theater

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Date:    Mon, 1 Jun 1992 11:18:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: R_GELINAS at UNHH.UNH.EDU (Russ Gelinas)
Subject: small break

  There was very little break material in the batch I brewed last night,
and I was wondering why.  It had 9 lbs. 2-row, .75 lb cara-pils, and .5 lb.
munich.  Infusion mash at 155, 90 minute boil, chilled with copper wort
chiller.  This produced less than 1/3 of the usual trub.  The difference
may have been the hops; they were in grain bags, rather than loose.  Would
the reduced surface area make that much of a difference in the break
production?

Russ Gelinas
SSC/OPAL
EOS
UNH

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Date: Mon, 1 Jun 92 08:42:27 EDT
From: sfw at trionix.com (Scott Weintraub)
Subject: Beer in L.A.


HI,
	I will be heading off to LA for the Society of Nuclear Medicine meeting
next week...Where should I go for the best local brews??

Thanks...
         --Scott Weintraub


btw,  can I find Chinook Beer or barley wine there?


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Date: Mon, 1 Jun 92 11:47 CDT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Re: Brett & Pedio

Spencer asks:
>One question, Al.  How do you keep the Brettanomyces and Pediococcus
>from infecting your other brews?

Up till now, I have simply used the same sanitation techniques that I've
always used.  I plan to use the 15 gallon HDPE fermenter I'm using for
the pseudo-Lambic, *only* for pseudo-Lambic.  Martin Lodahl has successfully
brewed pseudo-Lambics followed by non-Lambics and has reported no infections.
Since this 15 gallon primary is HDPE, I'm hesitant to use it for non-Lambics.
I will soon be using 5 gallon glass secondaries, but will not fear using
them later for non-Lambics since I have more confidence in my sanitation of
glass fermenters.  By the way, I use two tablespoons of household chlorine
bleach per gallon of water for sanitizing.

Al.

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Date:         Mon, 01 Jun 92 12:10:40 CST
From: C05705DA at WUVMD.Wustl.Edu
Subject:      recipe request

The other day I had a brew from Engalnd, Whitbread I believe, that was a
triple stout.  It was a good stong sweet/bitter beer you can chew on for
a while, and very thick.  It made guiness look like a light beer.  Does
anyone know of how to make such mother's milk?  thanks.

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Date: Mon, 1 Jun 92 12:13 CDT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Read retention

Frank asks about head retention.

The primary source of good head retention is protein.  Dextrins also
contribute, but to a lesser extent.  Try adding a little wheat malt or
flaked barley or steel-cut oats to your mash to increase your protein
content and enjoy the pleasure of getting longer-lasting head.  For
extract brews, you can steep 4 ounces of flaked barley in your boil
water at 170F water for 15 minutes before removing the grain and bringing
the water to a boil.  This will give you a very cloudy beer, so I only
do this for my extract stouts and porters in which the color hides the
haze.

Another problem may be too much finings.  Are you using Irish Moss or another
fining agent?  My head retention severely decreased when I began using 1/2
tsp of Irish Moss in the boil.  I stopped using it, chilled quickly with
a wort chiller to coagulate the big proteins but still probably increased the 
protein content of my beers as compared to those with Irish Moss used.
My head retention improved as compared to the beers made with Irish Moss.

Chill haze can be reduced by either fining-out the proteins or by fining-out
the tannins.  I don't recall which finings work on which molecules, but I'm
sure that Irish Moss fines-out proteins and Polyclar fines-out tannins.
By fining-out the tannins and leaving the proteins, you could eliminate
chill haze while preserving head retention.  Could someone post which
finings work on which molecules? -- I know it's an electrical attraction of
some sort, but I cannot find my notes on it.

Al.

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Date: Mon, 1 Jun 92 10:53:26 MDT
From: Eric Mintz <ericm at bach.ftcollinsco.NCR.COM>
Subject: Brewpubs in Atlanta?


Quick question:
Does Georgia allow brewpubs?  If so, any notable ones in Atlanta?

- --Eric

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Date: Mon, 1 Jun 92 11:01:56 MDT
From: Eric Mintz <ericm at bach.ftcollinsco.NCR.COM>
Subject: Yeast culturing on potatoes?


I was speaking with a lab tech about yeast culturing.  He told me that
before agar, they used the inside surface of a sliced potato.  Anyone
out there heard of this?  Have you ever tried it?  If so, what did you
do and how did it work?

- --Eric

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Date: Mon, 1 Jun 92 16:04:02 -0400
From: bradley at adx.adelphi.edu (Dr. Robert Bradley)
Subject: formula for calories

Dan Roman asked about a simplified version of George Fix's formula(e)
for the caloric content of a 12 oz. bottle of beer in a form which
is _linear_ with respect to starting and ending gravity.

Of course, George's fromula can be solved in terms of OG and FG only,
or in terms of OE and AE only.  The answer isn't linear, and no amount
of wishing will make it so, especially as there is a term involving OE
which is the denominator of a rational function.

On the other hand "every differentiable function is locally linear".
This was Newton's great insight (although Archimedes, Gallileo and
Pascal, among others, probably had a gut feeling to this effect).
If it were not for this important principle, there would be no such
thing as an economist.  Or at least one who is earning a salary :-)

So....assuming that your original gravity is in the range 1.036 - 1.060,
the following is a good approximnation to Goerge's Law:

calories/12 oz. = FG[12.876*OE + 1.324*AE - 1.42]

This still doesn't satisfy Dan's wish for a linear function.
However, within reasonable limits (FG in the range 1.005 - 1.015),
we can drop the multiplier and constant term to get

calories/12 oz. = 12.876*OE + 1.324*AE
                =   3219*OG +   331*FG - 3550    (*)

where   OE = hydrometer reading before fermentation, degrees Plato
        AE = hydrometer reading  after fermentation, degrees Plato
        OG = hydrometer reading before fermentation, specific gravity
        FG = hydrometer reading  after fermentation, specific gravity

With the given example   OG=1.045, OE=11.25
                         FG=1.010, AE= 2.5,

We hav calories = 148.165 in either case.  Of course, we have no reason in
the world to trust those final digits.  148 calories is probably even
more accuracy than we're entitled to (this is not to casr aspersions
on the accuracy of George's coefficients, rather a reflection of the
fact that we're approximating a rational function by a polynomial).

For barley wines or ultra-light brews, different fudge factors would
be needed, although the numbers won't change too much.

It's interesting to note that original gravity tells almost the whole
story when it comes to calories.

Starting Gravity 1.050     Final Gravity      Calories in 12 oz.
                              1.030 (heavy!)       171
                              1.020                168
                              1.010                164
                              1.005                163
                              1.000 (yuck!)        161

Moral, when a yeast eats a sugar, it doesn't use much of the stored
energy.


Now a question:
- --------------
a number of sources (incl. TCJOHB and George Fix's posting) give
or use the formula
   
         degrees Plato = (fractional part of gravity * 1000) / 4

(I used it too, to derive formula (*) from the one above it.)
Nevertheless, every hydrometer I've ever seen contradicts this.
1.047 appears to be 12 degrees Plato or even 12 1/4 instead
of the predicted 11.75.

SO.....are the hydrometers off, or is the formula above just a
rough and ready approximation?  Just curious.

Rob
(bradley at adx.adelphi.edu)



P.S. I'm embarassed by the fact that the sysop changed the identifier
that follows my e-mail address to "Dr. Rob..." while I was in Colorado.
Now he's on vacation and I want to change the thing so as to look a
little less like the pompous techno-dweeb that I am.  Is there any
Unix guru out there that can tell me how to change that thang?

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Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1992 16:10 EDT
From: S94WELKER at usuhs
Subject: FEWEST brewpubs per capita

Washington DC population: 800,000 (more if there's a protest rally)
Number of brewpubs: 0
Brewpubs per capita: 0
Let's see you beat THAT!
- --Scott

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Date: Mon, 1 Jun 92 16:33:09 -0400
From: bradley at adx.adelphi.edu (Dr. Robert Bradley)
Subject: Wyeat datum

Well, I finally got around to trying Wyeast.  (You gasp!  He's never
used Wyeast until now???????)  In my defence: I used MeV liquid yeast
on a number of occasions  when I lived in Canada. As well, for all that
Wyeast is _the_ standard for homebrewing today, when I joined this list
a scant 25 months ago is was still quite new.  Lil' Ole Winemaking Shoppe,
for instance, only started carrying it sometime last season (Sept-May).
For a shiftless academic sch as myself, it's sometimes hard to keep up
with the latest trends.

My analysis        Character: 10,  Purity:2

I used Belgian Ale yeast (number has been forgotten).  With the exception
of finsishing and dry hopping with a different variety (Fuggles instead
of Hallertau or Cascade), the recipe was essentially the same as my usual
pale ale.  Yet the sample I had at racking (day 5) tasted, well, a bit
like Chimay ordinaire or Duvel.  It had that slightly thin, slightly hot
estery taste that I associate with Belgian beers.  And the only thing that
was different from IPA was the yeast!

The yeast is more attenuative than the Edme, Munton & Fison and
Whitbread.  It went from 1.052 to 1.013 in 5 days.  With the same
mash technique, a similar OG and one of the above dry yeasts, I
would normally ferment out at 1.018-1.020 (consequently, my Belgian
beer was a little over-hopped, but that kind of suits the style).

The bad news: either I got a bad batch, or this stuff keeps fermenting
for a long, long time, even at 70 degrees.  By day 25, the yeast was
still working away, the gravity was down to 1.010 and the aroma of
bananas was unmistakable.

Only one data point, I'll admit, but brewed using a certain degree of
control in that the ingredients, techniques, times and temperatures
are the same ones that used on many an occasion in my 205 batch career.

I'll just wait and see what happens.  Not worrying,

Rob
(bradley at adx.adelphi.edu)

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Date: Mon, 1 Jun 92 15:52:02 CDT
From: gjfix at utamat.uta.edu (George J Fix)

Subject: Calories in Beer (George Fix)


I hope it was clear from my original post on calories that the formula
quoted was not due to me. It is something that has been floating around
for a few years. I found out about it at a local MBAA meeting from some
folks at AB-Houston. An older and somewhat less accurate version can be
found in Vol. 2 of Malting and Brewing Science by Hough,et al. 

One of the legacies passed on to homebrewing from home winemaking has
been the use of specific gravity as a unit for expressing extract. For
wines this makes a good deal of sense as all of the technical research on
wine has used these units. Unfortunately, all the work on beer uses different
units, namely % extract on a weight to weight basis, or degrees Plato if
you like. The only time specific gravity is used is to convert numbers
involving weight to ones involving volume. For example, in the formula for
calories the specific gravity of beer multiples the entire term. Without
it the formula will give the number of calories per 1/3 kg. of beer. With
it we get the number of calories per 1/3 liter, or approximately calories
per 12 oz.  

What is truly unfortunate is that there no simple way of going back and forth
from specific gravity to degrees Plato without directly looking them up in
the extract tables. Sometimes the factor of 4 is cited, and it does work for
some values. Thus a wort which is 12 deg. Plato has a specific gravity of
1.048, and 48 = 12*4. A quick glance at the extract tables shows the number 4
does not give very good results for other values. What this means is that the
classic beer formulas like Balling's and others can not be accurately expressed
in terms of gravities. In fact, most of the formulas I have seen which use
gravities have come from winemaking. They work well there, but they are highly
suspect when applied to beer.  


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Date: 01 Jun 1992 15:40:26 -0600 (MDT)
From: JLAWRENCE at UH01.Colorado.EDU
Subject: Brewing supply stores

    Can anyone out there in the Boulder County, Colorado area
recommend a good brewing supply store?  I live in Longmont, about
20 miles NE of Boulder.

    Alternately, I work in Denver.  Any good ones in the mid-
Colorado Blvd. area (near Leetsdale, Alameda, Monaco)?

    Thanks.

 - Jane

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Date: Mon, 1 Jun 92 15:16:17 PDT
From: tahoma!dgs1300 at bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Don Scheidt)
Subject: re: Kriek 'n' yeast

In HOMEBREW Digest #890, Thu 28 May 1992:
>Date: Wed, 27 May 92 15:52:48 EDT
>From: waflowers at quantum.on.ca (Bill Flowers)
>Subject: Kriek Lambic and weiss beer

>Has anyone tried the Brewferm Kriek kit (from Belgium)? How close is it to
>the wonderful Kriek Lambic I tried? It isn't cheap (Cdn$20.59) esp. as it 
>makes only 12L (instead of the normal 19L).  I plan on starting it this
>weekend to generate those "gallons" my wife wants for the hot weather.
>
>It calls for some sugar (500g I think), but I was thinking of substituting
>alfalfa honey.  I think it will give me the light body called for (which
>DME wouldn't) without the off flavours of corn sugar. Comments?

It ain't cheap, and you won't get a typical 'commercial' Kriek.  I used two
cans (3 kg) of the Brewferm Kriek, *no* sugar, a touch of Tettnanger hops at
the very end of the boil for aroma (the extract is already is hopped), and
DME at bottling (again, no sugar -- I'm still bottling and priming the hard
way, so I use dried malt extract instead.  Cornelius kegs and CO2 are still
down the road for me :-).  This was for a standard 5-gallon batch.

>Which reminds me, what about the yeast in the Kriek kit?

It's the usual dried yeast - the packet that came with mine even says
"made in England" on it.  I used Wyeast Belgian Ale yeast, and the results
were quite good - probably the best beer from extract I've made yet (take
that with a grain of salt - I've only made half-a-dozen batches so far!).
I did a single-stage primary fermentation, and bottled at 1008 FG.  I tasted
the bit that was left over after bottling, and was pleasantly surprised at
the dryness and finish of the still-immature beer.  I tried one after three
weeks in the bottle - again, pleasantly surprised.  It isn't a Kriek-Lambic
by any stretch of the imagination, nor a Kriek-brown-ale (like, say,
Liefmans).  It's more like a cherry-flavoured pale ale - imagine something
like De Koninck, the pale ale of Antwerp, with a noticable cherry component
to it.  Also surprising was that it clarified very easily - in fact, I
didn't add any clarifying agents to the boil.  In another three weeks, I
will have two cases (minus one bottle!) of wonderful cherry ale for summer
imbibing.  The Brewferm extracts are pricey, but then, Belgian ales in the
USA are pretty expensive anyway.  Still worth it, IMHO.

> The difficulty is obtaining the proper yeast(s) (can it/they be obtained
>commercially at all?).  If I know which Wyeast to order my brew store will
>special order it for me.  They normally only carry 5 strains.

Arrgh - I can't remember the catalog number of Wyeast's Belgian Ale yeast.
I think it was #1056.  I hope I'm not confusing that with Wyeast's Bavarian
Weiss, #3056 I think.

More on yeastie beasties:

>Date: Wed, 27 May 92 21:58 CDT
>From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
>Subject: Whitbred Yeast...
> 
>Someone just posted an article about Whitbred yeast being a combination of
>several strains.  Is this a fact or another momily?  Does it apply to the dry
>version?
> 
>I just pure cultured some from a pack of dry and will be pitiching in my next 
>batch.  If it is true, I just wasted a lot of effort.

Yes, the Whitbread ale yeast is a combination of several strains, not a pure
single culture.  I'll gladly pay extra for Wyeast's liquid cultures for this
very reason; you don't get that funky 'homebrew' nose that you get with the
dry yeast.  See above re: Belgian ale yeast - which played no small part in
the quality of the finished product.
 
- -- 
Don                             | Well, it looks as if the top part fell
dgs1300 at tahoma                  | on the bottom part.
 .!uunet!bcstec!tahoma!dgs1300 | -- Vice President Dan Quayle referring to
				|    the collapsed section of the I-880
				|    freeway after the San Francisco 
				|    earthquake of 1989.

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Date: 1 Jun 92 16:37:00 PST
From: John Fitzgerald <johnf at ccgate.SanDiegoCA.NCR.COM>
Subject: mineral content of my water


I've got a quick question for all of you Chem-types that might be reading,
or anybody else that knows, of course!  I've received a water analysis
from my local district office, but all of the concentrations are in g/l.
Can anybody tell me how to convert this to ppm?  ppm seems to be the
standard way that Zymurgy, and TNCJoHB describe water contents, but I 
couldn't find any conversion formulas.

On a side note, (I realize it is getting kinda late in the year for this,
but I've been dying to try one of these), I'd like to try making a holiday
spiced ale.  If I hurry, will 6 months be enough time?  I just got a copy
of the Cat's Meow II, and I could use some recommendations for a good 
recipe.

Any and all input is appreciated.

John Fitzgerald


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #893, 06/02/92