FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  michigan (Anthony Rossini)
  Alaskan Beer ? (Tony Willoughby)
  Choke Cherries (Shirley Thompson)
  Chimay yeast and bananas (mcnally)
  s/Divide/Multiply (Nick Cuccia)
  Re: Calories in homebrew (Michael L. Hall)
  Wyeast Belgian revisited (Rob Bradley)
  Saccharomycess delbrueckii (MILBRANDT_J)
  Bananas (Glenn Tinseth)
  cooler for lauter  (florianb)
  Head retention from Micah Millspaw (BOB JONES)
  wyeast data (Dave Coombs)
  Problems (Shirley Thompson)
  Wort Chillers (fjdobner)
  Toilet Water, Dry Yeast (Jack Schmidling)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jun 92 08:04:55 EDT
From: rossini%biosun2 at harvard.harvard.edu (Anthony Rossini)
Subject: michigan


Hey!  A friend of mine is moving to Ann Arbour (sp?), Michigan, and was
wondering about the status of brewing supply stores up there?  Any close by,
or will he have to start considering mail-order?

Reply via email, I'll forward replies if anyone is interested (not sure this
is globally relevant)

thanks in advance,

 -tony
- --
Anthony Rossini       -       rossini at biostat.harvard.edu
Department of Biostatistics, Harvard School of Public Health
677 Huntington Ave, Boston MA 02115  617-432-1056

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Date: Wed, 3 Jun 92 8:38:40 EDT
From: twilloug at brynmawr.webo.dg.com (Tony Willoughby)
Subject: Alaskan Beer ?


I'll be vacationing in Alaska in mid-August.  I'd love to try any locally
produced beer.  Anyone know of any brewpubs or breweries that have tours?

Oh, I'll be in Anchorage, Seward and Denali.

- -- 
Tony Willoughby               | He that buys land buys many stones.
twilloug at brynmawr.webo.dg.com |    He that buys flesh buys many bones.
                              | He that buys eggs buys many shells,
                              |    But he that buys good beer buys nothing else.
                              |                       - An Old English Saw

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Date:         Wed, 03 Jun 92 08:27:58 MST
From: Shirley Thompson <DUSTHOMP at idbsu.idbsu.edu>
Subject:      Choke Cherries

I live in the mountains and the Choke Cherries will be ripe in a couple
of weeks.  Has anyone ever made beer or wine using Choke Cherries?  If
so, would it be possible to get your recipe and results.  Thanks

 -----------------------+-----------------------+-------------------------
 Shirley Thompson       | 1910 University Drive | CREN: dusthomp at idbsu
 User Service Center    | Boise, Idaho   83725  | Internet:
 Boise State University | (208) 385-4357        | dusthomp at idbsu.idbsu.edu


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Date: Wed, 03 Jun 92 08:34:29 -0700
From: mcnally at wsl.dec.com
Subject: Chimay yeast and bananas


Keep in mind that there are two things that can cause the iso-amyl 
acetate (banana) (and I could be wrong about the chemical) problem.
One is high temperature, but I've fermented batches with Chimay at
high temperatures without any problems.  The other is insufficient 
aeration at pitching time.  Insufficient oxygen causes some yeast
to develop with very thin cell walls, and for some reason completely
unknown to me this results in excessive production of the ester.

On the bright side, I've found that the banana taste fades with age.

_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
Mike McNally                                           mcnally at wsl.dec.com
Digital Equipment Corporation
Western Software Lab

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Date: Wed, 03 Jun 92 09:19:17 -0700
From: Nick Cuccia <cuccia at remarque.berkeley.edu>
Subject: s/Divide/Multiply

I don't believe that I said Divide by 1000 instead of Multiply by 1000.

Blee.

- --Nick

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Date: Wed, 3 Jun 92 11:11:10 MDT
From: mlh at cygnus.ta52.lanl.gov (Michael L. Hall)
Subject: Re: Calories in homebrew

I know that there have already been answers to this question, including
disclaimers by George Fix and a nice linearized version with analysis
by Robert Bradley, but I thought someone might like to see yet another
version of the formulas. These are the same formulas that George Fix
gave, except that they have been converted to FG and OG (using the
Plato to SG (divide by four) conversion that is not exact acording to
George). This is probably what Robert did, before he linearized them.
Anyway, here they are:

Note that OG and FG are used in the full form (e.g. 1.045). C stands for 
the calorie content per 12 ozs., and the {alc} and {ext} subscripts signify
the fractions from alcohol and extract respectively.

Other definitions:

A   = alcohol content of finished beer in % by weight. 
RE  = real extract of finished beer in degrees Plato. 
OG  = original gravity of the beer. 
FG  = final gravity of finished beer. 

     76.8 (OG - FG)
A  = --------------
      (1.775 - OG)
       
RE = 250 (0.1808 OG + 0.8192 FG - 1)

                       (OG - FG)
C_{alc} =  1881.22 FG ------------
                      (1.775 - OG)
                     
C_{ext} =  3550 FG (0.1808 OG + 0.8192 FG - 1.0004) 

C  =  C_{alc} + C_{ext}

              [ 0.53 (OG - FG)                                    ]
C  =  3550 FG [ -------------- + (0.1808 OG + 0.8192 FG - 1.0004) ]
              [   1.775 - OG                                      ]


Mike Hall
hall at lanl.gov

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Date: Wed, 3 Jun 92 13:34:42 -0400
From: bradley at adx.adelphi.edu (Rob Bradley)
Subject: Wyeast Belgian revisited

In hbd 894, Al korz at iepubj.att.com writes:

> It appears that too many Wyeast users blame the yeast for infections
> rather than their sanitation techniques.

It also appears that too many Wyeast defenders blame the sanitation
techniques of users rather than the yeast :-)

I'm (slightly) miffed that Tom would blame my procedures, sight
unseen, for my problems.  Nobody can be assured of perfect sanitation
every time but, as I made abundantly clear in my posting, I used
a tried-and-true combination of recipe and technique which, I believe,
gave me a pretty good basis for comparison.  Meanwhile, Tom actually
put his finger on the real problems (slowness of the yeast, high
temperature) later in his own post, making this ad hominem all the
more unfair.

For the record:

1 - Last night (day 29), the fermentation appeared to be finsihed,
    the gravity still read 1.010 (no perceptible change in 4 days)
    and the estery quality seemed to have significantly subsided.
    I plan to bottle tonight (if I can get it done before the game).

2 - I've heard from other users of Wyeast Belgian who agree that
    the stuff takes a long time to ferment out (you're one of them,
    Al!) and that it sometimes takes bottle aging to get over
    an initial roughness.

3 - 70 degrees was a ballpark, and for most of the period, it was
    probably in the mid-high 60s.  As Al points out, that's too
    hot for this strain of yeast.

My patience (and lack of worry), seems to be paying off.  I've revised
my opinion of Wyeast Belgian upwards and had intended to tell the HBD
as much.  I think HBD readers who might someday want to try this yeast
deserve to know that 

    (1) the yeast is slow and
    (2) the yeast might not be happy if you don't have a cellar.

Cheers,

Rob
(bradley at adx.adelphi.edu)

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Date: Wed, 3 Jun 92 13:36:05 CDT
From: MILBRANDT_J at WUMS.wustl.edu
Subject: Saccharomycess delbrueckii

	In response to a message I read in the HBD a couple of days 
ago, I have a question about the delbrueckii yeast which Wyeast packages
in their 3056 packets. I have similarly colony-purified yeast from this packet
which will give the chacteristic cloviness which a freind of mine was looking
for. As you stated, other colony isolates give a maltiness which is similar  
to many lager yeasts, while colonies of another larger appearrance are obviously delbrueckii. The problem is that when he attempted to ferment with yht this 
tyeast (please excuse typos, I don't know how to edit on this terminal!t) 
it stopped about halfway to the expected terminal gravity. Is this charistic 
it stopped about halfway to the expected terminal gravity. Is this charistic 
it stopped about halfway to the expected terminal gravity. Is this charistic 
(sorry) of this yeast, and does it need the other strain to finish out? It is possible that I simply have a mutant, and could pick more colonies if this is the 
case. Perhaps it is this particular strain from Wyeast?
	I cannot completely eliminate the possibility that this merely a 
stuck ferment due to some other factor than the yeast itself. However, he 
says he has used the 3056 before without this problem. I certainly welcome any comments on this subject.

Thanks,
	tim Fahrner (apprentice typist )y

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Date: Wed, 3 Jun 92 11:43:49 PDT
From: tinsethg at ucs.orst.edu (Glenn Tinseth)
Subject: Bananas

To add another data point, my Chimay-clone using the Wyeast Belgian ale
yeast was fermented at 58-60 F (measured on the glass outside the carboy).
It was an all grain batch that turned out great but produced copious amts
of banana and bubble gum esters during the ferment.

Now four monthes later the fruitiness has subsided to the pleasant level
and is very enjoyable. I think it is a characteristic of the yeast and 
definitely not due to sanitation, especially since the banana aroma is 
subsiding with age. This yeast was *very* vigourous even at 60 F.

Chimay flavor for $2.00/gal., I can't complain =:^)

Glenn

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Date: Wed, 03 Jun 92 12:53:39 PDT
From: florianb at chip.cna.tek.com
Subject: cooler for lauter 

Nick Zentena sez:

Hi,
>I just finished making a new lauter-tun
>based on a picnic cooler. Does anybody have
>any hints on using this versus my old
>zap-zap unit?

>Also whats the best way to clean the pipe.

I have some hints:

When you get ready to sparge, pour into the cooler your equivalent
amount of sparge water at boiling temperature. Add the mash which will
be at about 150 F, and stir. The resulting mixture will be reduced in
temperature to about 170-180 F. Hot Dog! No fiddling with mash-out!

Leave the mixture with the cooler lid on for about half an hour.
Perhaps longer. Then re-circulate about a gallon of the water. It 
should be very clean. Go ahead and run off the wort as fast as you
want to. Be bold! If it slows up, take a kabob skewer and poke the
filter bed, or drag across the surface to break up the fine sludge
on the top of the filter bed. After all, this is what the big guys do.

Start heating the wort as soon as you have 2 gallons or so. Use a second
kettle to catch the remaining runoff. Don't bother with sprinkling
sparge water over the bed after it's all run off. If you are worried
about the loss of a few sg points, simply add another half pound of
grain next time.  

The best way to clean the pipe is to disassemble it if it's made of
1/2" fittings and rinse it with cold water. If you do this right away
without letting the gunk dry on it, you can get it very clean.

Enjoy the rewards of easier all-grain!

Florian


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Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1992 12:51 PDT
From: BOB JONES <BJONES at NOVAX.llnl.gov>
Subject: Head retention from Micah Millspaw


	There have been some questions about both head retention (beer)
and chill haze problems. I think that a large portion of the problem
is a lack of lipids in the wort.
        Lipids are very important elements for proper beer stability.
Lipids are unsaturated fatty acids, this means that they are available
to form new bonds with other elements of the wort. Although only a few
ppm of lipids are present in finished wort, they can have far reaching
effects on factors such as yeast viability, ester formation, gushing
and flavour staling. Small variations in brewhouse procedure can produce
large variations in wort lipids. Lipids adhere to trub particles ( trub
contains up to 50% lipids) and to filter materials. Spent grains are high
in lipids. A turbid top runoff from the lauter tun can contain 5 times,
and even 40 times as many lipids as the clear wort runoff from the same
mash. Also yeast will autolyze if it does not receive small amounts of
ergosterol or unsaturated lipids.
        North American grown barley malt contains very small amounts of
free fatty acids (3.2-3.5 mg\l) opposed to european malts (18-26 mg\l).
Insufficient fatty acid levels can result in high esters in the
finished product and can also be responsible for gushing problems in the
finished beer. The addition of unsaturated fatty acids can cure gushing.
While the addition of saturated fatty acids tends to increase gushing.
The content of unsaturated fatty acids has a strong influence on the
formation of fermentation volitiles, notably the acetate esters. A wort
that has been stripped of lipids could produce a beer too high in esters.
        I beleive that a shortage of lipids may be a problem that
homebrewers encounter because of their obsession with mash extraction
yields. This need to eke out every trace of sugar from a mash, leads home
brewers to practice wort recycling and or flaufing. These can be risky
sparging techniques with regard to hot side aeration as well as stripping
lipids from the wort. Recycling is the collecting of the wort as it runs
out of the lauter tun and pouring it back over the grain bed. Many brewers
claim that recycling should be done to settle the grain bed. Flaufing is
the collecting of the wort as it runs out of the lauter tun, boiling it
and then returning it to the top of the grain bed. These practices not
only give oppurtunity for hot oxygen and wort reactions, but also strip
out fatty acids (which North American grown malts are low in) that are
essential for proper yeast nutrition.
        I have long felt that mash recycling was a bad thing, in that
it tends to remove a lot of large particulate matter that would otherwise
be in the boil. I feel that these particles ( husks and grits mostly)
provide a place for proteins to clump onto during the boil and then
settle out more effectively in cooling.
       I have observed much clearer finished wort (cooled) from my
boils, when the mashes were conducted with no recycling of wort than
from those of other brewers whose worts were made by recycling the mash.


                                              Micah Millspaw 3/31/92


	A lack of sufficient lipids will cause the finshed beer to have
stability problems one of which is head retention. Above it was mentioned
that additions of lipids could cure gushing, I would make it clear that
gushing is a head retention problem, and that it causes acn be the same
as those responsable for no head formation at all.
 
                                             Micah Millspaw 6/3/92       


ps.    Look for more about how chill haze and haze in general ties in
with this in future HBDs.

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Date: Wed, 03 Jun 92 18:40:26 -0400
From: Dave Coombs <coombs at cme.nist.gov>
Subject: wyeast data

Someone posted the Wyeast data a while ago.  Is it in an archive or
homebrew FAQ someplace so interested souls can get it?

	dave

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Date:         Wed, 03 Jun 92 16:58:50 MST
From: Shirley Thompson <DUSTHOMP at idbsu.idbsu.edu>
Subject:      Problems

I made up two batches of beer about 10 days ago.  The first batch (a wheat beer
) has been bubbling merrily along.  The second batch (a lite ale beer), the
yeast is working very very slowly.  The first yeast did not appear to work,
(I might have added it too soon, before it was cool enough), so I added more
yeast.  It doesn't appear to be working at all, except the bubbler is raised
up.  The temp is 65 degrees on the outside of the carboy this morning.  Can
the yeast be working so slow that I never see the bubbler move?  I only time
I saw the bubbler move is when I got worried and and replaced the bubbler
with a cork and shook it up really good.  It bubbled for about 10 minutes and
then quit.  It is inis is only my five and sixth batches of beer.   Am I just a
then quit.  It is in a 7 gallon carboy.  This is only my fifth and sixth batche
s of beer.

The recipe I used was:

      6 lb Malt Brewcon Pale
      1 lb Hop Lite dry malt
      20 gm Tett hops
      15 gn Fuggles Hops
      2 pkgs Mutton/Fison

Am I just a worry wart or should I dump the second batch out and start out?
Help-p!

 -----------------------+-----------------------+-------------------------
 Shirley Thompson       | 1910 University Drive | CREN: dusthomp at idbsu
 User Service Center    | Boise, Idaho   83725  | Internet:
 Boise State University | (208) 385-4357        | dusthomp at idbsu.idbsu.edu


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Date: Wed, 3 Jun 92 21:54 CDT
From: fjdobner at ihlpb.att.com
Subject: Wort Chillers

Some practical questions about using immersion-type wort chillers:

1. How does one go about cleaning a wort chiller? When I say clean
I mean making sure that any solid or liquid foreign matter are removed
from the inside of the coils? Initially, I am concerned because I have
new equipment (1/2" copper coils and hose) and want to get rid of any
possible mnufacturing debris or oil present. 
Would you really want to use detergent
(for the same reasons as not using detergent for beer glasses)? If
not, what?

2. As far as cleaning on an ongoing basis, would you just do the same
thing as recommended for 1) or a reduced instruction set.

There is no thrill greated than making beer from new equipment and drinking it.
I almost underwent a full collapse of both lungs standing in my basement
and sucking through 15feet of vinyl hose and 35 feet of copper coil
from a pot of boiling water in the kitchen above. I have improved the
siphon process (luckily on a trial run with no real batch at stake)
and gave my wife a good belly laugh all at the same time. Up until that
my only experience of siphoning was from gas tanks and from primary and
secondary fermentation vessels with a meek 4 or 5 feet of hose. The
key with these larger scale siphoning jobs is to ensure that the hose
has no air pockets of significant size. I would have not relaxed, and worried
plenty had this been a full production batch.  

Frank Dobner

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Date: Wed, 3 Jun 92 23:19 CDT
From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Toilet Water, Dry Yeast

 
 To: Homebrew Digest
 Fm: Jack Schmidling
 
 >John Freeman writes:
 >   My cellar gets damp and musty in the summer, so I have a constant supply
 > of water produced from the de-humidifier.  Would this be good water to
 > brew with?  Seems like it should be pure unadulterated water....
 
 This question and all the followup have got to be in the same class as
 the hops wine stunt.
 
 Surely this is a jest!  
 
 >From: tahoma!dgs1300 at bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Don Scheidt)
 
 >Yes, the Whitbread ale yeast is a combination of several strains, not a pure
 single culture.  I'll gladly pay extra for Wyeast's liquid cultures for this
 very reason;
 
 Yes, if one really wants such a combination, it seems a bit of an ordeal to 
 replicate it.
 
 > you don't get that funky 'homebrew' nose that you get with the
 dry yeast.
 
 I separated your statement into two parts because it is NOT necessary to "pay 
 extra for Wyeast" to solve the second problem.  One can "clean up" dry yeast 
 with very simple culturing techniques I have described in previous articles.  
 I defy anyone to find a "funky homebrew nose" in my beer and I have never 
 used Wyeast or any other commercial "liquid yeast".
 
 BTW, those going to the AHA conference in Milwaukee will have an opportunity 
 to taste ARF's Generic Ale made with pure cultured, wild yeast.  In addition 
 to a few MALTMILLS, I will be bringing a keg or two of the "WORLD'S GREATEST 
 BEER".  Unfortunately, we have been asked to limit the serving size to three 
 ounces.
 
 js
 
 
 

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #895, 06/04/92