FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Cheap Kegs and related hardware (Buckaroo Banzai)
  FREE BEER (Robin Garr)
  Brewpubs near Dubois, PA (JIM MCNUTT)
  RE: Homebrew Digest #903 (June 16, 1992) (Phillip Seitz)
  English bitter info/examples (STAFINIAK)
  Milwaukee Goodbyes ("Rad Equipment")
  Milwaukee Goodbyes                    Time:7:50 AM     Date:6/16/92
  Re: hopeless hops (Larry Barello)
  $Agar? and sediment in wine  (Carl West)
  Largering, Milwaukee, Questions about England (George Fix) (George J Fix)
  Pilsner malt (Bob Fozard)
  Re: Aeration with aquarium pump (martin wilde)
  Questions from a novice (Chris Goedde)
  Nice meeting (almost) everyone (Jay Hersh)
  technique? ("C. Lyons / ASIC Device Development / x9641")
  Re: hopeless hops (Patrick P. Clancey)
  Technique; Chillers; Kegs (Ruth Mazo Karras)
  Los Angeles Brewing Company (Mr.Raytrace)
  Agar, Sediment (Jack Schmidling)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 92 0:57:12 PDT
From: Buckaroo Banzai <u_banzai at mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu>
Subject: Cheap Kegs and related hardware

I have tried unsuccesfully to find cheaply the few items it takes to
complete a home kegging setup.

I have tried the local Coca-Cola and 7Up bottlers here in San Diego,
but they both refer me to Cornelius....(Have yet to contact Cornelius)
(Do they have good prices?)

There is a beer supplier in the area that will sell me the empty
Cornelius kegs for ~$15.  I already have one Coke-type keg, but when I
asked about regulators and CO2 tanks, I almost choked!

     Regulator          ~$47
     5# CO2 Tank        ~$65
     (fittings were included)

What I want to know is....is there a cheaper source, or am I stuck
paying $100+ to get setup so I can keg my 5-gallon batches?

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Date: 16 Jun 92 06:48:58 EDT
From: Robin Garr <76702.764 at compuserve.com>
Subject: FREE BEER

korz at iepubj.att.com observes:
 >
 >>          1992 AHA NATIONAL AWARDS AND CONFERENCE TRANSCRIPT
 >>
 >>     <stuff deleted>
 >> Now they are chanting, MORE BEER! MORE BEER! MORE BEER!
 >>      <stuff deleted>
 >
 >Sounded like "FREE BEER! FREE BEER! FREE BEER!" to me.

Obviously the poor acoustics in that cavernous hall were to blame for this egregious misquote. ;-)

Robin Garr        |  "I have enjoyed great health at a great age because     
Associate Sysop   |  every day since I can remember I have consumed a bottle 
CompuServe        |  of wine except when I have not felt well.  Then I have  
Wine/Beer Forum   |  consumed two bottles."  -- A Bishop of Seville          
76702.764 at compuserve.com


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Date:        Tue, 16 Jun 92 08:39:52 EDT
From: JIM MCNUTT <INJM%MCGILLB.bitnet at VM1.MCGILL.CA>
Subject: Brewpubs near Dubois, PA

I'll be spending a week near Dubois, PA and would appreciate knowing
of any brewpubs/goodbeer in the area.  Thanks.

Jim McNutt

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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 92 13:43 GMT
From: Phillip Seitz <0004531571 at mcimail.com>
Subject: RE: Homebrew Digest #903 (June 16, 1992)

1) Beer in Alaska.  I can't offer much information concerning brewpubs,
but I strongly recommend the beers produced by the Alaskan Brewing Co.
in Juneau (see Jackson's pocket guide for a thumbnail sketch).  They
produce a wide variety of beers, with only the pale ale being a bit
pedestrian.  Of particular note is their amber, which is far and away
the most Belgian tasting beer made in America (you can tell where my
heart lies. . . . could you bring me back a case?)

2) Oranges.  I'd like to use orange zest in my secondary for some orange
flavor and aroma (again, a Belgian-type brew).  The question is, how
much?  The beer will be about 1.070, using a rather fruity yeast stolen
from a Belgian bottle.  Also, should I avoid dry-hopping with hops at the
same time?
\

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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 92 10:51 EDT
From: STAFINIAK at psycha.upenn.edu
Subject: English bitter info/examples

I'd like some info on the English bitter ale style. What characteristics define
an English bitter? What commercial examples (both domestic and non-domestic) 
might I be able to find on the East-coast? 

Thanks in advance!
Paul
stafiniak at hermes.psycha.upenn.edu

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Date: 16 Jun 92 08:26:52 U
From: "Rad Equipment" <rad_equipment at rad-mac1.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Milwaukee Goodbyes

Subject:  Milwaukee Goodbyes                    Time:7:50 AM     Date:6/16/92
I'd like to say that I found the 1992 Conference to be very useful. All the
sessions I attended were well prepared, presented, and interesting. The general
session speakers and events were equally well designed. There were one or two
rough spots, but that's to be expected when planning an event of this size and
complexity. The food and drink were never lacking, and that includes what was
supplied by the local (some not so local) clubs in the hospitality suites. We
got to see two of the most inspiring breweries for "seat-of-pants" homebrewers.
Both Sprecher and Lakefront were built with a minimum of up-front investment
and serve as shining examples of what can be done with inspiration and "sweat
equity". All in all I think Karen Barela and the AHA staff deserve our high
praise for bringing off the event so smoothly. "Thanks!" to all of you in
Boulder.

Meeting so many "Electronic Brewers" face to face after as much as 3 years of
keyboard contact was very exciting. The added dimensions of the personalities
of those I got to spend some time with was certainly the most intriguing aspect
of getting to know people who I thought I could anticipate. Beyond the obvious
miscalculations of age and appearance, I found peoples' sense of humor and
warmth (often difficult to see on-line) served to cement many electronically
formed friendships. My only regret is that I didn't get to spend more time with
these people.

To those of you who I didn't get to say "goodbye" to, I look forward to
continuing our discussions here and to seeing you again in Portland. Thanks for
making Milwaukee so memorable.

RW...

      Russ Wigglesworth              CI$:      72300,61
|~~|  UCSF Medical Center            Internet: Rad Equipment at RadMac1.ucsf.edu
|HB|\ Dept. of Radiology, Rm. C-324  Voice:    415-476-3668 / 474-8126 (H)
|__|/ San Francisco, CA 94143-0628


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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 92 08:28:30 PDT
From: polstra!larryba at uunet.UU.NET (Larry Barello)
Subject: Re: hopeless hops

I purchased some hops from Michael Matucheski and they worked out fine.
I happened to be in Antigo Wi during the bad weather.  the last day we 
were in town things warmed up and Micheal was able to dig mine up.  All
of the rizomes had buds - the fuggles had a 4" sprout on it when I 
planted it.  I must admit, I didn't get around to planting until
almost a month after I recieved the rhizomes.  They were in plastic
baggies at room temp.  Perhaps that is why they were so vigorous?
I don't remember how thick they were.  Something like my pinky and
about six inches long is what I remember.  They all came up within a 
month of planting.  Also, Seattle has had *very* warm weather this spring.
Everything is early.  A friend reported his hops already are forming flowers!

As an aside, the fuggles is most vigorous, the Cascades next and the
Hallertauer least vigorous.  I presume next year things will even out after
they adapt to their new homes.

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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 92 11:31:35 EDT
From: eisen at kopf.HQ.Ileaf.COM (Carl West)
Subject: $Agar? and sediment in wine 

Agar

Nick,
Check out your nearest oriental grocery store, you'll find agar-agar in
at least one of several forms; powder, noodle-like strips(looks like
rice noodles), or puffed square sticks that look like they're related
somhow to fried pork rinds. Unless you're planning on doing heavy-duty
microbiological studies on your yeasts this stuff will work fine for
you.

Sediment in wine

>My question is what should I do with about 40 bottles of wine that all have
>some sediment on the corks? ... Any ideas???

I don't do wine but, you asked for ideas, here's mine:
Stir/shake a bottle up to get the sediment off the cork, and store it
on its _side_, allow the sediment to settle to the side of the bottle.
When serving, carefully and gently decant all at once into a decanter,
_then_ pour for your guests.


Carl

WISL,BM.


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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 92 10:47:13 CDT
From: gjfix at utamat.uta.edu (George J Fix)
Subject: Largering, Milwaukee, Questions about England (George Fix)

Florian asks in HBD 899 about priming festbiers in cold storage. We followed
the traditional process, still widely used in Germany, of having a long, cold
secondary fermentation in a gas tight vessel. No attempt at priming was made
in this process. In particular, we allowed the fermentation to go 2/3rds of the
way in the primary, and let the last 1/3rd finish off in the secondary.

We took periodic samples to determine the state of carbonation. Very often it
was necessary to bleed off some CO2 to prevent overcarbonation. If anything,
it is possibly best to stay slighly on the low side, and then make minor upward
adjustments at the end with direct CO2 injection. This practice is also widely
used in Germany.

Laurie and I really enjoyed Milwaukee. The biggest treat of all was meeting old
friends, and relating faces to e-mail addresses of people we had not meet 
before. I just wish there were more time for everything, especially informal
discussions. What would be great is to follow something like Jay Hersh's 
seminar with sessions where homebrews were tasted by a group of interested
brewers. The beers could be served anonymously to prevent excessive ego
deflation or inflation. This would also allow people to talk more freely
about what they are actually tasting, and perhaps talk about their own
personal experiences. (By the way, Jay really worked hard to get the doctored
beers right, and despite of the hectic ending which was created by time
limitations, I think he did an outstanding job.)

Jack Schmidling's generic ale was indeed clean as a whistle. I did, however,
have some stylistic quibbles with it. Jack, those high alpha Chinooks need
a generous malt charge to balance them off. I hope you had a chance to taste
Bob Jones' Brown Ale. It clearly showed how really delicious a clean well 
balanced beer can be. Also, since you and Al Korz. live in the same city, I
hope you get a chance to taste his beers as well. They too are excellent
models. The larger point, however, is that yeast culturing works, and it
can do so for any type of brewer. One does not need fancy equipment to brew
tasty beer. Good yeast, a good recipe, and sanitary brewing conditions will
do the trick every time. One final point. Jack, when you discard yeast after 
they make a clean brew (well formulated or otherwise), then you could be
chunking THE WORLD'S GREATEST YEAST SLURRY.    


Laurie and I are going to England at the end of this month. It is alas a work
trip, but there should be some spare time on weekends. We would be grateful for
any tips concerning pubs, brewpubs, and micros in or around Cambridge. These 
can be sent directly to gjfix at uta.utamat.edu.


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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 92 9:10:52 PDT
From: rfozard at sword.eng.pyramid.com (Bob Fozard)
Subject: Pilsner malt

I'm interested in brewing up a pilsner, something like
(of course :-) Pilsner Urquell.  The wonderfull malt
character of this stuff is really out of this world.
I've recently seen some Bavarian Pilsner malt at my 
local supply shop (Fermentation Frenzy) and wonder if
anyone has experience with this.  Also, anyone have
recommendations for other malt types that might be
capable of producing malt character akin to Urquell?
I just can't imagine that coming out of Briess 
Brewers malt (IMHO, Generic Brewers malt).  It could
perhaps be supplemented with some Munich or Vienna,
what do you folks think?

- -- 
rfozard at pyramid.com

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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 92 15:43:59 GMT
From: martin at daw_302.hf.intel.com (martin wilde)
Subject: Re: Aeration with aquarium pump


Hmm...

> Alberta Rager will have an article in the Conference Transcripts
> on aeration -- she suggests using a bubbler stone, an aquarium pump
> and a 2micron inline filter for aeration, but I would leave this
> improvement for later.

Well I tried using a 1 micron inline filter with an aquarium pump placed
in my wort and the pump produced so much air that my wort bubbled out
of the carboy!!!  I don't know if the bubbler stone (which produces fine
bubbles compared to just the end of the 1/8" tubing) doesn't have this 
problem or are they using a 15 gallon fermenter with 5 gallons of
wort in it... 

Anyone who saw the demonstration at the Conference or know how to get around 
the problem care to comment??

By the way, how did they sterilize the bubbler?? Put it in bleach??  All
of those little pores in the stone would be a menace to get clean it
seems like...

thanks

Martin Wilde                   |  So many beers...
martin at daw_302.hf.intel.com    |  So little time...
uunet!intelhf!daw_302!martin   |

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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 92 13:32:08 EDT
From: Chris Goedde <goedde at shape.mps.ohio-state.edu>
Subject: Questions from a novice

Hi.  I'm a novice brewer (just racked my second batch to the
secondary), and I have the following questions.

1) Is there a simple conversion between pounds of liquid malt
   extract and pounds of dry malt extract?

2) I'm thinking of brewing some half batches (2.5 gallons).
   Papazian gives a table for hop utilization for bittering as a
   function of the gravity of the boil, and I was wondering if 
   there are similar adjustments for finishing hops also, or 
   should I just cut them by 50%?

3) That little lid that comes with your fermentation lock.  Do
   you attach it securely while fermenting or do you just set
   it on top?  Or do you throw it away?  In other words, what's it
   there for?  I made a starter for my last batch, and it was
   slightly carbonated because I had the lid to the lock on, which
   didn't seem quite right.

Thanks,

chris goedde
goedde at shape.mps.ohio-state.edu

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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 92 14:49:57 EDT
From: Jay Hersh <hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu>
Subject: Nice meeting (almost) everyone


Just wanted to say that it with one minor exception it was quite nice
to put faces to many of the names I've recognized from the net for
the last umpteen years.... Kudos to Russ Wigglesworth for his cute
little rub-ons that let everyone know you were a computer geek :-) :-)

Just about everyone was as friendly or friendlier in person and it was great
to sit down and converse at length with many of those I did meet up with,
and there were some great brewing and non-brewing tales to be told.
I say just about everyone since Mr. Exception was of course his same old
tired self-promoting self. Some people just don't get it do they??

To all who attended the Dr. Beer seminar, thanks!! Hope you enjoyed it
sorry for the minor snafu... I plan to do this again next year (with AHA
approval of course) and hope to have things run more smoothly. In all the
comments I received were very positive (if you were there and have any feedback
please forward it to me, thanks) so I expect we'll be there next year. 
Another special thanks to Dr. George Fix for his assistance....


	JaH


- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hopfen und Malz, Gott erhalts

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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 92 13:30 EDT
From: "C. Lyons / ASIC Device Development / x9641" <LYONS at adc1.adc.ray.com>
Subject: technique?

>     First, this is what I now do:  the day or more before
>brewing I start Wyeast and eventually make a 750 ml starter with
>light dry malt extract (or sometimes I repitch from the secondary
>and avoid the starter) and I also boil 1.5 to 2.0 gallons of cold
>tap water (it's quite soft in Philadelphia) and then freeze in a
>block;  on the brewing day I bring about 4.5 gallons of water to
>around 170x F., turn off the heat, add 6.6 lbs. NW malt extract
>syrup, stir to dissolve, start heating again and bring to a boil,
>add hops at one or more times, and boil for 60 to 90 minutes or
>until volume falls to about 3.5 gallons, cool from 212x F. to
>about 170x F. by putting the pot in a sink of cold water and then
>cool to yeast pitching temperature by adding the 1.5 to 2.0
>gallon block of ice, pitch yeast into the pot and let stand one
>to two hours, rack wort off of the settled trub into a carboy or
>plastic fermenter while waving the siphon hose to aerate the
>wort, fit a fermentation lock, ferment two to three days until
>kreusen falls and then rack to a carboy for a one to three week
>secondary fermentation, rack to a plastic fermenter with priming
>sugar (preboiled corn sugar), and then bottle.  Sometimes I bring
>crystal malt or other specialty grains to 170x F. in the brewing
>pot and then skim it out before adding the malt extract syrup.
>Sometimes I treat my brewing water after the boil with Burton
>water salts (for pale ales) and sometimes I add .5 tsp. of Irish
>Moss at the end of the boil.

   I like this technique!  The idea of letting the trub settle in the
brew kettle is nice.  Typically I sparge the wort immediately into the
primary and end up getting a good portion of the trub in the primary.
Just a few questions:

   1)  Does pitching the yeast into the brew pot ( at 80F) and siphoning
       2 hours later disrupt the fermentation process?

   2)  Is a significant amount of yeast left behind in the brew pot 
       along with the trub?

   I have been looking for such a technique and your additional comments
would be appreciated.

                              ... Chris Lyons,
                                  lyons at adc1.adc.ray.com

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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 92 16:58:24 CDT
From: ssi!ppc at uunet.uu.net (Patrick P. Clancey)
Subject: Re: hopeless hops

Dave Ballard asks:

> hey now-  did anyone else get hop rhizomes from matucheski farms in
> wi this year?  a friend and i ordered a bunch at the end of march
> and received them at the end of april.  there was a problem with 
> the weather in wi at the time so their harvest was late.  anyway, 
> we've had these things in the ground for like six weeks now and 
> have seen no signs of life.
 
I ordered four rhizomes from them, the Hallertau, Cascades, Fuggles,
and Bullions, for myself and friends. All have come up and are doing
well (up to 12 inches growth so far).

> i never saw a rhizome before these arrived, so i don't know how thick 
> they're supposed to be.  the ones we got were _really_ skinny, like
> much thinner than my pinky.  were they anemic or something?  if anyone
 
They were all roughly the diameter of a pencil when received.

> so what is it?  is it da hops?  is it da good piscataway soil?  is it
> da shoes?

Definitely the shoes.

Pat Clancey
Supercomputer Systems, Inc.
Eau Claire, WI

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Date: 16 Jun 92 22:06:40 EST
From: Ruth Mazo Karras <RKARRAS at PENNSAS.UPENN.EDU>
Subject: Technique; Chillers; Kegs

ºThanks to all who responded to my post on brewing technique and
suggestions for improvement.  The leading suggestions were to use a wort
chiller rather than the block of ice made from brewing water.  This change
would allow a full boil (with its better hop utilization)--more on this
later.

ºAlthough several respondents recognized the difference of views
expressed in this forum from time to time, the consensus was that a plastic
primary fermenter was fine.  I do rack to a glass secondary and that won
approval.  No one thought that using oxygen to aerate the wort prior to
pitching was sufficient bang for the bucks and a one liter starter was thought
to be little better than the 750 ml starter I now use (although I suspect
that I should be giving the starter more time to get to high krausen).

ºAt least two repsondents thought that keggin WOULD improve the brew,
providing better conditioning.  Several more agreed that it would make
brewing easier.  More on this later, too.

ºAnd of course just about everyone noted the benefits of going to all
grain.  If I can collect the additional materials, I plan to give that a
first go this weekend in celebration of Father's Day (but my daughter has
opted to feed my computer hobby so no wort chiller there).  Finally, one
respondent noted the inadvisability of doing more than a 60 minute boil for
extracts, something I now recall seeing here some time ago but had not
remembered.

ºWort Chillers.  OK, I am ready to take the step.  The immersion
variety seems more practical from a sanitation standpoint.  I like the idea
of keeping it clean, but sterilizing it just before use by inserting it into
the boil for a few minutes before turning the water on.  The most detailed
description I have found here of making an immersion wort chiller was by
Patrick Volkerding (volkeri at mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu) on 3/26/92.  He used 25
feet of 3/8 inch outside diameter (O.D.) copper tubing with compression fitting
s to
connected to a garden hose.  His tips included using a snap-connect fitting for
easy connections.  Washing machine hoses can be used for connections.  The
plumbing supply stores I talked to today say that the 3/8 inch O.D. tubing
has a 1/4 inch inside diameter, and comes in two varieties, the one that I
would want for easy bending being the soft variety.  $1.05 per foot in
Philadelphia.  Patrick used 25 feet--should I use the same?

ºKegs.  My wife brought back form England a couple of weeks ago a copy of
_Home Brewing--The CAMRA Guide_ by Graham Wheeler (Alma Books, Ltd. 1990).
It is a 172 page cross between the books by Miller and Papazian, but with an
English bent that I found really useful (for example, I just never
understood before that copper finings were fining agents added to the
brewpot, which is called a copper in England due to its historical
construction material).  As the book describes all grain only, I have
certainly not digested it, but I am intrigued by the plastic barrels used in
England for kegging.  They have a tap set into them and can take a carbon
dioxide charger to protect against oxidization.  Can anyone compare
them to the soda kegs used by many homebrewers here?

ºThanks again for the help of this Digest.  Next year I hope even to
go to Portland!

Chris Karras  (RKarras at PennSAS.UPenn.edu)

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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 92 18:53:40 -0700
From: rkaye at polyslo.csc.calpoly.edu (Mr.Raytrace)
Subject: Los Angeles Brewing Company

I got some more news on the Los Angles brewing company, who are the folks
that make Eureka beer. 

The brewpub closed down during the L.A. riots, and then never opened up
again. The official word was 'finanicial troubles' and that the brewery
would continue to brew beer, but the pub would remain closed for a while.

The story has now changed for the worse: The brewery will close and the
pub will stay open...

Seems stupid to me...


 -ruaok

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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 92 22:53 CDT
From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Agar, Sediment

 
 To: Homebrew Digest
 Fm: Jack Schmidling
 
 >From: Nick Zentena <zen%hophead at canrem.com>
 Subject: $Agar?
  
 >       Does anybody know of anyplace that sells agar at
         reasonable prices?
 
 At the risk of being one of a zillion responses.....
 
 Oriental food stores in Chicago sell agar agar in foot long sticks about 1 
 inch square for a couple dollars.
 
 I boil 6 inches in a cup of wort and the cost is just about zilch.
 
 
 >From: envkas at sn634.utica.ge.com
 >Subject: sediment in wine
  
 >My question is what should I do with about 40 bottles of wine that all have
 some sediment on the corks? 
 
 This may seem a bit obvious but how bout turning them right-side-up afor a 
 few weeks or whatever it takes?
 
 js
 
 

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #904, 06/17/92