FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  re: Beer Head and Fruit (John DeCarlo)
  Re: English bitter info/examples (John DeCarlo)
  Lupulophobia in Milwaukee (John DeCarlo)
  Spruce Beer Questions (Chris Cook, NMOS Quality Engineer - (301)386-7807)
  English Bitter (aew)
  fruit / bad humor (Brian Bliss)
  Re:  Homebrew Digest #905 (June 18, 1992) (John E. Greene)
  .1 or .2 micron filters   (bryan)
  Re: Lupulophobia (korz)
  Reading SG from wort after it's in the Carboy? (Kent Dalton)
  Certified Beer Judge (sami)
  Strawberries in Beer (sami)
  FWD: American Classic DME (KENYON)
  Al Marshall, Hops and Balance (Jeff Frane)
  Wyeast/High gravity beers (Phillip Seitz)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 18 Jun 1992 09:06:52 EDT
From: m14051 at mwvm.mitre.org (John DeCarlo)
Subject: re: Beer Head and Fruit

>From: fjdobner at ihlpb.att.com
>Subject: Beer Head and Fruit

>1. Regarding the point at which fruit should be added in the
>homebrewing process, my conclusion was the following:  Adding
>fruit anywhere in the boil would cause haze in the end.

I have heard that, but not experienced it.  My process starts
with throwing the fruit in the freezer at least several hours
before brewing, sometimes the night before.  People tell me that
this breaks down cell walls, making it easier for the essence to
get into your beer.  I then toss this in as soon as I turn off
the heat and let sit for 15 minutes.  So, it may be that by
starting frozen and adding to boiling-hot wort, the result is
really a steeping at 170F or somesuch and thus avoiding any
pectin haze--I don't know.



Internet: jdecarlo at mitre.org (or John.DeCarlo at f131.n109.z1.fidonet.org)
Fidonet:  1:109/131

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Date: Thursday, 18 Jun 1992 09:07:32 EDT
From: m14051 at mwvm.mitre.org (John DeCarlo)
Subject: Re: English bitter info/examples

>From: PEPKE at vaxkid.scri.fsu.edu
>Subject: Re: English bitter info/examples

>One more thing:  do not use Cascade hops under any
>circumstances.  Use Northern Brewer or something like that.

Yow!  Personal tastes will vary, but *please*, IMNSHO, use Kent
Goldings or Fuggles hops (I prefer the KG) in your bitters.  I
can still taste the KG from a well-brewed Young's bitter--yum!

Internet: jdecarlo at mitre.org (or John.DeCarlo at f131.n109.z1.fidonet.org)
Fidonet:  1:109/131

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Date: Thursday, 18 Jun 1992 09:08:09 EDT
From: m14051 at mwvm.mitre.org (John DeCarlo)
Subject: Lupulophobia in Milwaukee

>From: alm at brewery.intel.com (Al Marshall)
>Subject: Lupulophobia in Milwaukee

>George Fix writes:

>>Jack Schmidling's generic ale was indeed clean as a whistle. I
>>did, however, have some stylistic quibbles with it.  Jack,
>>those high alpha Chinooks need a generous malt charge to
>>balance them off.  I hope you had a chance to taste Bob Jones'
>>Brown Ale.  It clearly showed how really delicious a clean well
>>balanced beer can be.

>Nevertheless, this brings up a pet peeve of mine:
>the seeming obsession with "balance" by certain figures in the
>AHA.

Let me add my own perspective here.  When I go to a meeting of my
local homebrewers club and taste a homebrew, my remarks will be
tailored to the skill and experience of the brewer.  If it is
someone more skilled or at least more experienced than I, I might
say "Hmmm, how did you get it so hoppy?  Ten pounds of high alpha
acid hops?" and go on from there.  If I am talking to someone who
has only had Budmillob, maybe Guiness, and is now brewing a pale
ale or bitter, I will very often suggest that they taste several
other beers (commercial or fellow homebrew examples) and see if
there is something there they would prefer.  Then I can make
suggestions on possible changes to recipes or processes, if they
desire.

In Jack's case, I would have also recommended he try other beers
that I thought were good, because he has only recently been
exposed to good homebrew.

Finally, whenever the issue of "stylistic quibbles" comes up, you
can expect that ten people will have at least a dozen opinions on
it.  As a general rule, balance is a good thing, though it can
certainly be overdone.  Luckily, the local homebrew club has
plenty of people who know nothing of balance and brew that way,
just to keep the rest of us in line.



Internet: jdecarlo at mitre.org (or John.DeCarlo at f131.n109.z1.fidonet.org)
Fidonet:  1:109/131

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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 92 09:21:04 -0400
From: cook at uars.DNET.NASA.GOV (Chris Cook, NMOS Quality Engineer - (301)386-7807)
Subject: Spruce Beer Questions

     I have made many beers using spruce extract and I like them a
lot, but I've got some questions about technique.

     The first spruce-flavored beer I made was Papazian's Goat
Scrotum Ale, simply as a lark.  I added the spruce essence (1 oz)
at the beginning of the boil, as directed, and the kitchen was
filled with this marvelous aroma that I'd never have connected with
a tree.

     The beer was great.  The spruce was surprisingly subtle, and
I strongly recommend it for those who like richly flavored beers. 
I've made a batch every year or so since then.

     This year I had a brainstorm.  Hey, I said, I love the smell
during the boil, but am I boiling off all those great aromatics? 
What if I added the essence at the end instead of the beginning?

     So it goes.  I added the essence with the finishing hops
(shedding a manly tear for the lost smells) and proceeded as usual,
although I did a little dry-hopping this batch.  Looked good so
far.  When I sampled the ale a week later I realized that I had
been right - the batch was more aromatic.

     Much more.  I still like it, but I'm afraid that it'll be too
strong for my guests.  This is a major disappointment, since this
style was always one of my 'show-off' beers for new homebrew
drinkers.  I hope things mellow with age.

     My question is about timing.  When should I add the essence
and how much should I use?  Are there two options (add lots early
or a little at the end)?  Anyone played around with this?

Chris Cook
cook at uars.dnet.nasa.gov

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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 92 09:30:21 -0400
From: aew at spitfire.unh.edu
Subject: English Bitter

In HBD #905 Eric Pepke gives a good overview of English Bitter. I would
like to add two things:

1) Eric Says:
> One more thing: do not use Cascade hops under any circumstances.  Use
Northern > Brewer or something like that.

   Also try Fuggles for bittering and Kent Goldings for Finish. Both
are            excellent.

2) He also says: 
>The only American beer I have ever tasted which comes anywhere near to
a real >bitter is the bitter at the Commonwealth Brewery in Boston, MA.

I cannot agree more! Since my only trip to England (darn!) I have been
on an unending quest for English style ales especially Bitters. This
quest alone started me homebrewing. Only a week after my trip to the
U.K. I had a chance to go to the Commonwelth Brewery in Boston and
tried their bitter. It is very good and the best at emulating real
English bitter that I have found in the U.S.  TRY THIS BEER!

No, I'm not even lucky enough to work for them! I just like the beer.
===============================================================================
Allan Wright Jr.            | Pole-Vaulters Get a Natural High!  | GO Celts!
University of New Hampshire +--------------------------------------------------
Research Computing Center   | Hello, My name is Inigo Montoya. You Killed my
Internet: AEW at UNH.EDU       | father. Prepare to die. -The Princess Bride
===============================================================================

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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 92 10:16:48 CDT
From: bliss at csrd.uiuc.edu (Brian Bliss)
Subject: fruit / bad humor


> well, considering that my latest mead was light, sparkling, and
> had 5 lbs of oranges squeezed into it, yet one could barely discern
> the orange flavor I'd say... a lot.  Oranges (and strawberries, too)
> don't seem to ferment a way and not leave much flavor in the final
> ^^^^^
> product.  Definitely avoid dry hopping it.  maybe try adding orange
> flavored extract - that way you could split the batch into 2 or 3 parts
> with varying amount of orange, and pick the one you liked best.

oops  - delete that "don't"

> A friend has far too many cherries in her freezer, since she wants to start
> putting up this year's crop.  I've offered to take them for adding to beer and
> return a six-pack or two of the results in exchange.

Cherries, on the other hand, do not totally ferment away.
I brewed up a 6 gal batch of Cherry Bock with 10 lbs of Dark X
and 6 lbs cherries, and you can definitely taste the cherries
through all the malt.  It's been aging for just over a year now.
The beer forms a nice pink head, and if you look close, you can
watch the red "bleed" away in little rivulets.

> 3. Papazian specifies that fruit ought to be added at the end of the
>    boil.  Would it be unwise or pointless to add any in secondary ferment?

You add it to the hot wort at the end of the boil to sanitize the
fruit as much as possible without turning into jello by boiling it.
If you add it after the wort cools, add a few campden tablets to
the cherry slurry, let sit a few hours, and then mix with the
wort, or if you haven't pitched the yeast yet, add the tablets to
the entire mixture, let sit, and pitch.

- ------------------

> As an aside, the fuggles is most vigorous, the Cascades next and the
> Hallertauer least vigorous.  I presume next year things will even out after
> they adapt to their new homes.

Glad to hear the most important one is doing best :-)

- ------------------

> Does anybody know of anyplace that sells agar at
> reasonable prices? A local place wants almost $100
> for one[1!] pound of Malt extract Agar. They also
> want $50 for a pound of DME.[This isn't a homebrew
> place put a chemical supply house]

Go to the nearest oriental grocery store, pull out a gun
and ask the checkout lady for all the cash in the register.
Then you'll have  the bucks needed for the lab-grade agar...

bb


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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 92 08:40:38 PDT
From: jeg at desktalk.com (John E. Greene)
Subject: Re:  Homebrew Digest #905 (June 18, 1992)


>Date: Wed, 17 Jun 92 14:36:02 EDT
>From: Arthur Delano <ajd at itl.itd.umich.edu>
>Subject: Cherries in beer

>A friend has far too many cherries in her freezer, since she wants to start
>putting up this year's crop.  I've offered to take them for adding to beer and
>return a six-pack or two of the results in exchange.
>    Given that I'm making five to six gallons:
>  1. How many pounds of cherries should I use in a basic pale ale recipe?
>  2. Should I cut back on the hops for bittering, flavoring, or both?  (
>     (generally, my hoppier beers are more popular)
>  3. Papazian specifies that fruit ought to be added at the end of the
>     boil.  Would it be unwise or pointless to add any in secondary ferment?

>Thanks for your answers in advance,

>AjD

The latest isssue of Zymurgy has an entire article about this subject.  I
found the suggestions quite surprising compared to fruit beers I have tasted
in the past.  Some real interesting ideas.  

He suggests something like .5 to 2 pounds of cherries per gallon.  Use as light
of malt as possible, and hop as little as possible.  If I remember right he 
suggests cutting the hops down to 1/3 of what you would normally use.  He
makes some comments about Papazian's method of adding fruit at the end of the
boil and also talks about adding the fruit after the wort has cooled and 
aging the beer with fruit.  

Since all kinds of fruit are now available, I was thinking about trying 
several of his methods to see which I would like better.  I was quite 
surprised to read that aging with fruit would probably result in a surface
infection which is unsightly in the bottle.  He says that if you use a keg, 
you draw from the bottom first and can't see the mold so it doesn't matter (!).
He claims you can't taste the mold that forms.  This seems to go against just
about everything I have learned about brewing to date and has me really 
curious.

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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 92 09:50:29 CDT
From: George.Fix at utamat

Our local mailer is sending everything headed for the UK into outer
space so direct communication is not possible. Send us a phone number
or an address. Laurie and I would love to treat you to a pint of
Abbott Ale. Boy what a fine brew!

Many thanks for the info from Andy Phillips and Tim Leinster. We will
respond by e-mail when we get to Cambridge. I hope there is enough Abbott
Ale to go around.


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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 92 10:03:20 PDT
From: bryan at tekgen.bv.tek.com
Subject: .1 or .2 micron filters  


  Anyone have any phone numbers or addresses for somewhere that sells
  the .1 or .2 micron air filters mentioned in the last couple of digests?
  I.e. ones that can be attached to aquarium pumps.  

  Thanks,
	 Bryan Olson
	 bryan at tekgen.bv.tek.com


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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 92 12:35 CDT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Re: Lupulophobia

Al Marshall writes:
         [some stuff deleted]
>Sadly, I think the AHA in general is dominated by this obsession with beer
style at the moment.  What is worse, it is my unscientific impression that
>the majority of the styles are skewed toward maltiness (most AHA figures
>call this "balance").
>I have christened this obsession with balance to the detriment of
>hop bitterness, flavor and aroma "lupulophobia".

Beers of all styles should have a balance between sweetness and bitterness,
malt flavor and hop flavor, malt nose and hop nose.  This balance is
different for each style of beer.  For example, in the Munich Dunkel style,
malt dominates and in the India Pale Ale style, hop bitterness dominates.
Don't blame the AHA for the figures listed, they are a complilation of
data collected from analysis of typical beers of the style.  Note that
both the gravity and IBU values in each case are a range, to account for
differences among breweries and regions.

>Anecdotally, lupulophobia
>seems to be *somewhat* more common in the Midwestern United States
>and relatively rare in the Pacific Northwest.  Note the number of
>small breweries brewing lagers in the Midwest vis a vis the P. Northwest
>as support for this view.  I was recently enjoying a pint of the first 
>Pilsner microbrewed in Portland, and reflecting that the 
>impressive hoppiness would probably not be attempted in many other
>markets.
>(Sadly, I've heard that the brewer intends to "tone it down".  
>Commercialism rears its ugly head even here).

Actually, historically, breweries in hop growing regions have a tendency to
brew hoppier beers.  This is not surprising.  It's not fair to say that
the hop rates in the Pacific Northwest are the correct ones and that the
hop rates in the Midwest are too low.  There are regional differences in
beers throughout the world.  Consider Brown Ales in Nothern Great Britain
and in Southern Great Britain.

>I'm looking forward to seeing HBD'ers in Portland OR next year at the
>AHA conference and subjecting you to a healthy dose of IBUs :-).
>
>	-- R. Al Marshall

I too am looking forward to the conference, visiting Portland, OR and 
getting a healthy dose of IBUs.  I love hops and hoppy beers.  Also, I
appreciate (and support) the regional differences in beers.

Al.

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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 92 15:12:22 MDT
From: Kent Dalton <kentd at bach.ftcollinsco.NCR.COM>
Subject: Reading SG from wort after it's in the Carboy?


A while back I started having problems with contaminated batches, so
I switched from dry to liquid yeast and also recently switched
from a plastic primary fermenter to a glass carboy... The difference
has been phenomenal! I've brewed four straight batches with this
setup that have all had superb results!

But there is one problem with this setup over the plastic setup: How
do I take SG readings? 

I've tried using the blow off to read my OG but I'm convinced the
stuff that's blown off is not representative of the whole batch.
(i.e. I've gotten results that must be incorrect: Stuff like <1.030
for a 5 gallon batch with 8lbs of amber extract, 3lbs of specialty
grains, etc. and a very large variance (somtimes down, sometimes up
(!)) over short periods of time in SG readings.)

And for FG, the blow off has stopped so I don't even have that to
work with. 

I can measure FG at bottling time but by that time I've already
siphoned it out of the carboy so if it has not actually reached its
FG I have to bottle anyway. This happened to me recently on an
otherwise great Bitter, the result was a very over-carbonated beer
since it had to finish fermenting in the bottle (fortunately none
blew up)! If the beer isn't ice-cold it will gush and even if poured
carefully it has mega-head which takes a while to dissipate to a
drinkable level.

So, does anyone have any sure fire methods for measuring SG when
brewing malt extract recipes with glass? I want to minimize the risk
of ruining a batch since that's why went to the trouble of
switching, but I still want to know when I can bottle and how
much alcohol my beers contain (seeing as how this is *invariably*
the first question a non-brewer asks when sampling one of my beers.
sigh).

/**************************************************************************/
/* Kent Dalton                   * EMail: Kent.Dalton at FtCollinsCO.NCR.COM */
/* NCR Microelectronics          * Phone: (303) 223-5100 X-319            */  
/* 2001 Danfield Ct. MS470A      *   FAX: (303) 226-9556                  */
/* Fort Collins, Colorado 80525  *                                        */
/**************************************************************************/

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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1992 17:24:23 -0800
From: sami at scic.intel.com
Subject: Certified Beer Judge

To John Reed, 

You might try calling Mark at The Modern Brewer. I'm pretty sure he was
working on it last time I was in to buy supplies. Don't know their number,
but it's somewhere on Mass Ave up by Davis Square.
Sam Israelit
Engineer, Businessman, . . . Brewer
Portland, OR


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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1992 17:44:48 -0800
From: sami at scic.intel.com
Subject: Strawberries in Beer

Arthur,

>  1. How many pounds of cherries should I use in a basic pale ale recipe?
 ...
>  3. Papazian specifies that fruit ought to be added at the end of the
>     boil.  Would it be unwise or pointless to add any in secondary ferment?

A friend and I tried strawberry beer loosely based on Papazian's
recommendations. We added 10 lbs of crushed frozen berries after the boil
for the primary fermentation. Then we added 5 lbs of crushed frozen berries
to the secondary. I don't know how much the second addition affected
things, but we have received a number of good comments on the finished
product. We also switched to Cascade hops in regular quantities.

Question:  How do I get a copy of the Conference proceedings from the AHA
this year? I was stuck on a trip and couldn't get there, but I am
interested in several of the topics that were covered.
Sam Israelit
Engineer, Businessman, . . . Brewer
Portland, OR


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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1992 17:37 EDT
From: KENYON%1235%erevax.BITNET at pucc.Princeton.EDU
Subject: FWD: American Classic DME

From:   MECH::KENYON         18-JUN-1992 17:28:52.56
To:     scvax::in%"hpfcmi.fc.hp.com"
CC:     kenyon
Subj:   American Classic DME

Folks,

Please ignore the other post, I sent an old file by mistake ...
this is what I really meant to say ...


Folks,

I recently received a catalouge from American Brewmaster.  They
advertise a brand of DME called "American CLassic (insert Trade
Mark thingy here)".  They also make a few claims that I'd like to
run by all youse on the Digest for comment ...

It goes like this ...

 ...Our stuff is excellent, blah blah blah ... "and the worts are
concentrated using the most technologically advanced, high vacuum
distillation process, assuring you" blah, blah, blah ...

"... Higher quality control during the malt extraction produces a
cleaner malt.  You will therefore notice a reduced trub level in
your primary fermentor and as much as a 50% reduction in sediment
in the bottle with single stage fermentation.  Trub is a major
source of off-flavors in beer through the production of esters
and fusel alcohols."

There was a recent thread about Trub producing off-flavors, but I
seem to recall that it ended in a hung-Digest?

Has anybody got any theories as to what effects (and why) this
high-vac distillation will have on the body and clarity of the
finished beer?  Anybody tried this stuff? It's not just American
Eagle under a different name, is it?

Send to me and I'll summarize,


Later,    -Chuck-



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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 92 12:02:36 PDT
From: gummitch at techbook.com (Jeff Frane)
Subject: Al Marshall, Hops and Balance

Al Marshall launched a typical Portland-area tirade, based on his
impressions of George Fix's comments on Jack Schmidling's World's
Greatest Beer.  Having not only tasted WGB, but being a Portland-area
hopfreak _and_ a BJCP judge gives me a little room to move here, I
think.

Al, you _know_ how much I love hops and you also know I agree with you
about the attitude toward hoppiness outside the Great NW.  But... George
didn't not say the beer was too hoppy, he said it was out of balance and
needed more maltiness to weigh up against the bitterness.  I tasted that
beer and I think George understated the problem; Bob Jones was a bit
crueler but more on the mark.

More to the point, I think you are wrong in general: I think bitterness
is great but when it exists in a
(sorry, Jack) thin and otherwise flavorless beer, you don't get good
beer. It's not a question of being out of style; it's just a question of
whether it tasted good or not.  Jack's beer wasn't contaminated (which
is good, but I would expect that of any brewer who had made more than a
couple of batches) but it also wasn't tasty.  As far as I'm concerned, a
beer that has only one flavor element--bitterness--is missing the boat.
I think it could have been improved considerably--not necessarily by
adding a lot of malt--but simply by bringing in some other flavor
elements.  With all that bitterness, a profundity of hop _flavor_ would
have made for a better beer.

It is true, folks, that the Midwest suffers from a sort of lupuphobia;
by the last night I was stumbling around, sobbing pitifully for some
hops.  Some creep snatched the last bottle of Liberty Ale from before my
eyes at the Banquet, risking death and dismemberment.  Good thing I'm a
nice guy.

- --Jeff Frane




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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 92 01:53 GMT
From: Phillip Seitz <0004531571 at mcimail.com>
Subject: Wyeast/High gravity beers

In response to the query about Wyeast cultures and high-gravity beer, I'd
venture to say that the problem isn't the yeast, but the procedure.  You're
building up a lot of pressure in the plastic bucket, and it's hardly
surprising you're going to get stuff spewed all ovethe place.  This 
happened to me when I brewed my batch of Elbo Nerkte (allegedly) Brown Ale.

I'd suggest doing it this way: put the wort into your bucket and place the
top on but don't seal it up.  That's right, just lay the sucker on there, 
and put a piece of tape over the fermentation-lock hole just to keep 
gunk from getting in.  If it makes you feel better, you can put a VERY
LIGHT weight on top to keep the cat from getting in.  This will allow you
plenty of ventilation for the CO2 to escape, and the likelihood that other
stuff will get in is quite small, particularly considering that the CO2 will
create a modest positive pressure in the bucket--thereby keeping various
biological bugs on the outside.

Once the kreusen has fallen (or close to it), rack the beer into a carboy.
By this time the most ferocious activity will be over, and you won't be
losing your wort on the floor.  You'll also leave behind a fair bit of
scum and have yourself a cleaner beer.  By the way, there's no reason you
can't peek into the bucket from time to time to see how the kreusen is coming
along. Some people will even use a sanitized spoon or skimmer to take the
foam off (it carries dead yeast, oils, and other stuff, I"m told).  And
of course, relax and don't worry.  Especially about having to mop the floor.

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #906, 06/19/92