FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Re : Cold Break Temperature (Conn Copas)
  Re : British v Other pale malted grains (Conn Copas)
  Re : MASHOUT v.s. SPARGING (Conn Copas)
  Scottish Beers (Diarmuid Quinn)
  FLAVOUR/ODOR IN ORINGS (Joe Rolfe)
  Re : Carbonation (Conn Copas)
  lots of things (Russ Gelinas)
  whats best for storing homegrown hops? ("John L. Isenhour")
  cold break temperature (mcnally)
  Harvesting hops (Ed Westemeier)
  Re: Why Mash Out? (Norm Pyle)
  Blue copper flakes in California homes (BOB JONES)
  Styrofoam rumors (Jacob Galley)
  Priming with DME (sbsgrad)
  comments on the maltmill (Sheridan J. Adams)
  vienna and munich (towns, not malts!) (Tony Babinec)
  Re: Why mash out?/Zapap lauter tun (korz)
  london-area pubs (Tony Babinec)
  AutoMash(tm) (John E. Greene)
  Yeast growth rates (Bob_Konigsberg)
  Re: Sparging (korz)
  Prime Beer Head (Guy D. McConnell)
  Let's get our data straight! (Jeff Frane)
  Yeast Reproduction ("CMD 2NDLT ALBERT W. TAYLOR ")


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Aug 92 11:56:33 BST
From: Conn Copas <C.V.Copas at lut.ac.uk>
Subject: Re : Cold Break Temperature

My experience is that rapid cooling from 70C down to 35C is most crucial for
achieving a cold break. Caveat : I don't serve any brew colder than 13C.

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Date: Thu, 6 Aug 92 12:59:19 BST
From: Conn Copas <C.V.Copas at lut.ac.uk>
Subject: Re : British v Other pale malted grains

>  So what does the HBD think? My contention is that Australian (and US, as
> far as I can tell) pale malted grains are not suitable for making authentic
> British ales, unless they can be slightly darkened somehow. I worry, though,
> what this may do to their ability to supply fermentable sugars.

Last time I was brewing in Australia (about 2 1/2 years ago), I had the
opposite experience. The malt available from homebrew shops was of anonymous
origin and not even labelled as 'pale' or 'lager'. It's extract value was
standard, around 30/gall, but it seemed to me to be more kilned than British
pale malt. On both taste and colour grounds, I used to limit the contribution
of the malt to an SG of around 40 when attempting to replicate (in my misguided
fashion) the local brew. Using higher proportions of malt used to result in
something resembling a Scotch heavy, which I find hard to replicate here. I
suspect this accounts for the frequent classifying of Australian commercial
brews as 'sweet lagers' (these have no resemblance to the products brewed under
licence in Britain). I found the malt to be temperamental regarding chill haze
and astringency, so it probably resembles US 6 row in that respect.

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Date: Thu, 6 Aug 92 12:29:49 BST
From: Conn Copas <C.V.Copas at lut.ac.uk>
Subject: Re : MASHOUT v.s. SPARGING

> Other than the publicity from a very popular book for the bucket approach, it
> is hard to understand why so many brewers have opted away from kettle
>  mashing.  You need a kettle anyway and in this simple and (in my opinion)
> superior approach, the transition from extract to all-grain becomes learning
> the process instead of collecting a bunch of equipment.
>
> js

Couldn't agree more that the facility for step mashing is useful if one wishes
to make a wide variety of brews and/or wishes to mash out. However, I have 
reservations about systems in which heat is applied directly to the mash, and
that includes stove-top mashing and buckets with heating elements. My
experience is that these systems give some of the character of a decoction
mash and thus result in a relatively dextrinous wort, presumably because
beta amylase doesn't survive the direct heating very well. Most of the time I
brew bitters and stouts and so this situation is fine, but there are
exceptions. Eg, when brewing barley wine or belgian ale I usually want the 
terminal gravity to be less than 1/4 of the original. I also make an old ale
which consists of about 1/3 crystal malt, which once again requires special
treatment. IMHO, the ultimate in versatility is the "mash tun in a hot water
bath" system. My tun consists of a stainless steel milk urn, sitting on blocks
in a plastic bin fixed with a heating element. Oddly enough, I'd gladly swap
the tun for something made of a lighter weight, more conductive metal.

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Date: Thu, 6 Aug 92 10:55:17 GMT
From: Diarmuid Quinn <diarmuid at s3dub.ie>
Subject: Scottish Beers


I am planning a trip to Scotland soon, during which
I expect to drink a few pints! In order to do it properly
I will need recommendations.

Can anybody out there supply me with a list of Scottish
beers, particularly the good ones. 
                                  
Ta.     Diarmuid Quinn (diarmuid at s3dub.ie)

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Date: Thu, 6 Aug 92 9:58:55 EDT
From: Joe Rolfe <jdr at wang.com>
Subject: FLAVOUR/ODOR IN ORINGS

hi all,

all this talk about orings is making me hungry :}

seriously thou, i have a bunch of kegs, bought used.  the rings are 
not new (but i bought new one anyway). i scrubbed the hell out of the kegs
with an acid (Diversey - Attitude - standard disclaimer) which usually
takes everything off stainless. 

replaced one oring and left a coke oring on another, sealed added CO2
(mainly for pressure check) and left them for weeks side by side. when
i went to filling them up the coke can had a distinct odor the other can
did not.  tried this experiment again with other cans that seemingly smelled
different (different soda in'em).  the ones i did not change the orings on 
had a sweet odor others were generally odor free.

for what it is worth - i have a friend who has probably 30 times the amount
of kegs i have, he never did any changing, but after one use the oring has a
beer smell to it. he turns his kegs over fairly regular.

so to make a point - if the orings smell, i feel it will get into the beer.
if this bothers you - try soaking the orings in cheap beer (BUD) for a couple
of weeks or more.  i had tried boiling, B_BRITE, other Diversey products, 
bleach, tsp, iodine, nothing seems to remove the odor. 

just a couple of cents worth - no flaming directed at anyone :}

joe rolfe

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Date: Thu, 6 Aug 92 14:44:51 BST
From: Conn Copas <C.V.Copas at lut.ac.uk>
Subject: Re : Carbonation

> I just thought of another situation: the size of the bubbles, however
> I haven't quite figured out how to control bubble size.  Some have
> said (here in the HBD) that priming with malt extract in stead of
> corn sugar gives finer carbonation (smaller bubbles), but I can't
> see how this could be (does someone have an explanation?).  I suspect
> that the bubble size has to do with surface tension and the body of the
> beer (this may be where the mouthfeel brings it all together). Comments?
>
> Al.

There was some intersting traffic on this issue in RCB prior to and on 21 Feb 
92. Here's an extract :

>From "The Winemaker's Dictionary":

"Ethyl Pyrocarbonate is an unstable compound formed when bottle fermentation
                                                         ^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^
occures.  It is formed by the joining of alcohol and carbon dioxide.  On
opening the bottle the rate of loss of carbon dioxide (or the rate of bubble
formation) is inversely proportional to the concentration of ethyl
pyrocarbonate.  Thus a good sparkling wine retains its 'fizz' for a long time
because the bubbles can only form as the decomposition of ethyl pyrocarbonate
> takes place."
>
This was basically an argument for natural conditioning over forced
conditioning. FWIW, I can't detect any differences between priming with
sucrose, extract or wort, at least with ales matured at cellar temperature. I
can detect large differences between bottle conditioned beers and those draught
brews which have been dispensed through an agitator. The latter are typically
milky at first and take around 1 minute to clear, and have a characteristic
creamy mouthfeel which bites much less on the tongue. This can also be 
simulated successfully using nitrogen as an artificial conditioning gas. I
arrived in the home town of Bellhaven beers, in Scotland, recently, and was 
disappointed that there wasn't a handpump in sight. I was about ready to inform
the local publicans that I had idealogical objections to keg beer, but it turns
out that Bellhaven have gone down the Guinness route and are experimenting with
nitrogen. These brews were vastly superior to their keg beers in terms of head
retention, mouthfeel, and general freshness. Whether they were pasteurised or
filtered, I couldn't determine.   

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Date:    Thu, 6 Aug 1992 11:03:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: R_GELINAS at UNHH.UNH.EDU (Russ Gelinas)
Subject: lots of things

For Alan E:  I understand there to be *2* temps of major cold break production.
The one at 65 degF produces more than the one at the higher temp (not sure just
what that temp is.).  The two temps are not magic numbers though, they are just
the approximate temps of maximum break production along a range of temps at
which break production occurs.

Re. mash-out: mashing is a continuum, with the mash reacting differently at 
the various temps.  Starches/sugars will be converted at a range of temps, 
from the 140's (or lower?) right up to the temp at which the conversion 
enzymes are denatured, that is, until they are chemically (physically?) 
changed so that they cannot do the conversion anymore.  A rest of 
10-15 minutes at 170+ degF is usually considered sufficient to denature 
the majority of the enzymes and "stop the conversion".  I'll leave it to the
chemists to tell us just what happens at that temp., but suffice it to say
that a few degrees *can* make a difference with what's happening with the mash.
Depending on your mashing temp. and time schedule, not mashing-out can result 
in a dry (as in not sweet) beer. I'd suggest reading Papazian/Miller/Noonan/Fix
for a full description of the chemistry, but basically, mashing involves not
only starch->sugar, but also big sugars->smaller sugars.  Mashing-out can 
help retain some of the larger sugars, usually to the benefit of the final 
beer(drinker).  Another (the main?) benefit of mashing out is to help the
sparge run smoothly.

Phil: Contrary to what your friend might have said, there is quite a bit of
possibly beer-spoiling life in tap water.  My wife is an aquatic biologist;
I've seen the numbers.  It varies considerably, depending on source,
season, time of day,.....  If you are on a reasonably good city water
supply and are pitching a good supply of yeast, I doubt your infection
problems are coming from the tap water rinse, but it is possible.  A way
to check, I suppose, is to pour boiling tap water into a clean bucket and use
that for rinsing.  You said you added distilled water.  Are you sure that 
it's *distilled*?   Plain *bottled* water can still contain bacteria.  Truly
distilled should be ok.  If you're filling your own bottle, the water may get 
infected at that time. Other places to check are your bottles, and any tubing.

Jack: the Zapap (from Papazian, backwards) is a bucket with a zillion holes
inside another bucket with just one outflow hole.  The mash goes into the
holey bucket, as does the sparge water, and the wort flows into the second
bucket underneath, and out the outflow hole.  It works, but it's tedious.
I'm pretty pleased with my cooler/sparge setup. 

Finally, D oringC, if you've got a beef with Kinney, take if off the list.

Russ

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Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1992 09:02:15 CDT
From: "John L. Isenhour" <isenhour at lambic.fnal.gov>
Subject: whats best for storing homegrown hops?

Whats the best way to store homegrown hops?  Should I press them into a brick?
For storage of freshhops I have been using the thick shiny (mylar?) plastic
bags that had laser cartridges in them, I air them out for a few days and wire
tie the regular gallon ziplock bag inside it.

 -The Hopdevil  (making lambic-style this weekend!)

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Date: Thu, 06 Aug 92 08:19:08 -0700
From: mcnally at wsl.dec.com
Subject: cold break temperature


In Dave Miller's book, it is pointed out that break material forms 
as you chill the beer all the way down to freezing.  Indeed, "chill
haze" is cold break.  Thus, if you chill the beer as much as possible
before fermentation, you cause the break proteins to coagulate and
drop out before the beer gets to the bottle.

If I had a good refrigerator for brewing, I'd rack into a carboy after
as good a chill as I could get with my immersion chiller, then stick
it in the fridge and drop the temperature as much as possible overnight.
After pitching, I'd of course let it warm up; the yeast will get going
before any undesirable organisms.

_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
Mike McNally                                           mcnally at wsl.dec.com
Digital Equipment Corporation
Western Software Lab

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Date: 06 Aug 1992 10:00:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: homebrew at tso.uc.EDU (Ed Westemeier)
Subject: Harvesting hops

In response to recent questions, here are my thoughts on harvesting
hops (I live in Cincinnati, about 39 degrees latitude):
I started harvesting my Cascade about ten days ago, and will continue
harvesting for another month at least.  I started harvesting Hallertauer
just a few days ago, and will continue for another month.  Nothing to
harvest yet on the Northern Brewer or Saaz vines (they don't get as
much sun as the others).
 
I judge readiness to pick by the feel of the cones.  When they begin to
feel papery and springy, they are ready to pick.  Before that, they feel
moister and compress more readily.  Whatever you do, don't wait for
them to turn brown.  If you're still not sure after feeling them, grab one
and manipulate the leaves to look inside.  If you see an abundance of
yellow lupulin glands, it's ready to pick.
 
Size is really variable.  The first clue to readiness is probably the 
elongation of cones.  I have found that even when adjacent cones are
very different (one long and pointed, the next small and rounded), they
can both be ready.  If one or two cones is ready, you can safely assume
that all the cones on that lateral and the opposing lateral are also
ready.
 
After harvesting, I spread the cones out on a piece of nylon screening
(the kind you use to repair window screens) in the basement.  After
a week or two, they are fully dried.  Then I weigh them and put them
in plastic sandwich bags, half an ounce to the bag.  These bags are
then put in on-gallon size ziplock bags.  I fill the big bags with CO2,
close them tightly and store them in the freezer.
 
The main advantage of drying hops before using them is to standardize
the alpha acid content in a given quantity.  Some major brewers claim
that storage improves hops (especially the noble ones), but I doubt if
the homebrewer would find it worthwhile unless you're brewing lambics.

- --Ed

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Date: Thu, 6 Aug 92 08:19:34 MDT
From: pyle at intellistor.com (Norm Pyle)
Subject: Re: Why Mash Out?


rush at xanadu.llnl.gov (Alan Edwards) writes:

>Steve Hamburg writes (in HBD #941):

>| Simply put, mash-out is the final act of mashing.  By boosting the heat of
>| your mash to 170-175F and holding for about five minutes, you effectively end
>| starch conversion.
>
>NOVICE ALERT!
>
>I have a question.  If the goal of mashing is to convert all starch into
>sugar, then why do you need to halt this process?  If mashing is complete,
>and there is no starch left, aren't the enzymes just sitting there doing
>nothing anyway?  Is there something else going on?
>
I think what Steve meant to say was, "you effectively end enzyme activity."
Presumably, starch conversion is already done at this point.  Enzymes are
still converting non-fermentable sugars (dextrins) into fermentable sugars
(maltose), though.  Both types of sugar are desirable in the wort, the
relative amounts depending on the desired style.  Mash-out stops this enzyme
activity at the (presumably) desired point in time.

Norm

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Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1992 08:40 PDT
From: BOB JONES <BJONES at NOVAX.llnl.gov>
Subject: Blue copper flakes in California homes

I live close to a community of new homes that has mysteriously had problems
with blue water. All these homes have copper pipes. The builder, water supply
company and MANY experts have been stumped on what causes this problem. They
all agree that these people should not drink their water. Now these people
gave approx. $350-$400k for these homes (it is Calif). They are VERY upset!
The builder has been supplying them with bootled water for drinking and cooking
for at least 2 years now. All sorts of explanations have been proposed. Some say
the water is TOO pure, not having enough calcium to coat the copper. Some say
its a reaction with the residue of the flux used to solder the pipes together.
Some say its electric currents flowing in improperly grounding mains causing
electrolysis. At any rate, the blue water causes the people to feel very ill
if they drink the water. I would suggest brewers with blue flakes in their
coolers should take steps to prevent them. The discussions on the WHYs can
continue.

Bob Jones



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Date: Thu, 6 Aug 92 11:08:22 CDT
From: Jacob Galley <gal2 at midway.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Styrofoam rumors

> From: jlf at palm.cray.com (John Freeman)
> Subject: mashing in styrofoam
>
> I'm not a chemist, but I don't think styrofoam reacts with water
> in any way.

Me either, but I thought it was pretty certain that when a styrofoam
container contained hot liquid, it releases some carcinogen into the
liquid. (Disclaimer: this is hearsay.)

Jake.

Reinheitsgebot <-- "Keep your laws off my beer!" <-- gal2 at midway.uchicago.edu

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Date:    Thu, 6 Aug 92 16:17:31 GMT
From: sbsgrad%sdph.span at Sdsc.Edu
Subject: Priming with DME

From: Steve Slade <sslade at ucsd.edu> 
Date sent:  6-AUG-1992 08:56:56 PT 



Sam Israelit writes:

>I just opened the first bottle of my version of the TCJoHB Maerzen and it
>has almost no head!!! I get about an 1/8 of an inch, but this rapidly
>disappears. Bummer . . . I believe the culprit is the way I primed. In the
>past I have  used corn sugar. Armed with my new HBD knowledge, I decided to
>prime with dry malt extract. I used 1.25 cups of boiled in about 2 cups of
>water. I think the problem is that I didn't pack the DME into the measuring
>cup. I treated it kindof like flour when I am making bread (which also
>occaisionally doesn't work!) so  don't thin that I got enough DME for a
>proper prime. My question is, does anyone know the weight of DME that they
>use for priming? Is this a completely wrong idea? Is there something else I
>am doing wrong (related to this topic since there are probably numerous
>things that would cause a purist to cringe)? The maerzen tastes great, but
>there just isn't much head to it at all. Any comments would be appreciated

Sounds to me like you used enough DME for priming a 5 gallon batch.  My 
experience is that the size of the bubbles and head retention in general 
are greatly influenced by the degree of maturity of the beer.  Since this 
beer is a Maerzen, I assume it's been lagered for some period of time.  The 
relevant questions are 1) Did you leave it at room temp for a week after 
priming to let the yeast go to it before they go dormant during lagering? 
and 2) How long has it been aged?  Ales primed with DME may take 4-5 weeks 
to develop proper carbonation at room temp.  Having no experience with 
making lagers I can't say whether this extended room temp "rest" is also 
required before cold-aging a lager primed with DME.  Anyone else know?

On the general question of DME vs. corn sugar, Dave Miller says corn sugar 
ferments quickly, so that the CO2 first goes into the head space in the 
bottle, then is forced into the beer by presure.  With DME or wort priming, 
the fermentation is much slower, and the CO2 stays in solution as it is 
produced.  

However, once the CO2 is in solution (say 2 weeks for corn sugar, 4 weeks 
for DME) it knows not from whence it came.  The size of the bubbles and the 
head retention from properly aged batches differing only in their priming 
should be the same.  For better head retention try the famous "heading 
agent" or 1/4 cup flaked barley.


Steve Slade 
reply to: sbsgrad%sdph.span at sdsc.edu

"Jesus can't watch out for everyone,
 so you'd best watch out for yourself.
 And the devil can make friends with everyone,
 so you'd best be like'n yourself."  - The Rave Ups -

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Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1992 11:23:43 -0500
From: sja at snoid.cray.com (Sheridan J. Adams)
Subject: comments on the maltmill

Greetings,

	True to his word, Jack sent the MALTMILL.  I received it this past 
Friday and was able to try it out Sunday.  As I told Jack, I was an extract
brewer exclusively until this spring when I started using specialty grains.
The only comment I will make to the digest is that it beats the pants off of
a rolling pin.  If anyone wants other comments send me email.

	About a year ago there was some talk about using a pressure cooker
to brew beer in.  I asked if the higher temperature could hurt the beer and
not hearing any answer either way I tried it.  I have not seen any problems
that I can pin on the temperature.  It does have a couple of advantages,
for one I don't get any boilovers.  Also I am able to cool it off by putting
the kettle in a sink of cold water and since it is still relatively well
sealed I needn't worry about an airborne infection invading it.  There is
the problem of adding ingredients once the pressure is on.  One can find
a way around that if they realy want to.  

- -- 


	The leading cause of cancer in laboratory rats is research.
			Sheridan J. Adams
			sja at grog.cray.com
			(612) 683-3030

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Date: Thu, 6 Aug 92 11:45:16 CDT
From: tony at spss.com (Tony Babinec)
Subject: vienna and munich (towns, not malts!)

I tried sending this to doug and it bounced, so here it is.

Douglas:  I had the good fortune to visit Vienna & Munich in 1984. 
While my "beer consciousness" then was not what it is now, I did
try the beer.  Aside from beer, you and your wife are visiting two
great cities and a beautiful part of Europe.  

Central Vienna is ringed by the RingStrasse.  You'll find all sorts
of museums and municipal buildings along that street, and I highly
recommend walking.  The central landmark in Vienna is St.
Stephan's.  Near the church is the intersection of Kartnerstrasse
and Graben.  Karntnerstrasse is one of the great commercial streets
in the world, so be sure to do some window-shopping as well as
stops for coffee and pastry.  You might see whether there will be
any musical performances at the Staatsoper or Volksoper, although
depending on the timing, the musical action might be at Salzburg.
Armed with a few guidebooks, you should be able to find dwellings
where Mozart, Haydn, Brahms, Schubert, etc., lived.  

So far as beer goes, seek out the Reichenberger Griechenbeisl at
Fleischmarkt 11.  This is a very old house with bay windows,
several storeys, many small vaulted rooms, and "the well-known
famous pilsner beer" (meaning Pilsner Urquell).  Aside from that,
you'll spot many restaurants and "cellars" at which you can eat and
drink. 

Also, look for this season's newly released young wine, termed
"sturm."  You might see signs in the windows of restaurants and
bars announcing "Sturm ist das!"  A trip by car or tram to the
nearby Vienna Woods and hills will lead you to the wine country.
You'll find restaurants where you can sit, eat, and have the wine. 
You'll also find walking trails if you are so inclined.  The wine
village of Heiligenstadt (sp?) has the home at which Beethoven
stayed when he began his great creative period in the early 1800s.

Munich, of course, is home to a half-dozen brewers, and you'll also
spot other beers in the town.  Each brewery runs a beer hall and a
separate restaurant at which their beer is served.  Central Munich
is closed to car traffic and is a large pedestrian mall.  It's easy
to find the Hofbrauhaus in one of the plazas.  I also recall a bar
call the Bier Museum that had a good selection of beers.  As
reported in HBD, you'll see the way the Germans serve pilsner,
namely, squirt some in the glass, let it sit, squirt some more,
etc.  Evidently, the pilsner pour gives the beer the desired
mouthfeel.  Also, you must have Weisswurst, mustard, pretzel, and
beer before Noon.

The Munich beers are:  Augustiner, Hacker-Pschorr, Hofbrau,
Lowenbrau, Paulaner, and Spaten.  You might also spot Ayinger.  I
don't have it with me, but Michael Jackson's Pocket Guide to Beers
is a good reference to Munich, and you really ought to carry it on
your trip.

Aside from beer, Munich has fine churches and museums, and an outdoor
market in the town center.

Lastly, take notes and tell us about the trip when you return!
  

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Date: Thu, 6 Aug 92 11:43 CDT
From: korz at ihpubj.att.com
Subject: Re: Why mash out?/Zapap lauter tun

Alan writes:
>Steve Hamburg writes (in HBD #941):
>
>| Simply put, mash-out is the final act of mashing.  By boosting the heat of
>| your mash to 170-175F and holding for about five minutes, you effectively end
>| starch conversion.
>
>I have a question.  If the goal of mashing is to convert all starch into
>sugar, then why do you need to halt this process?  If mashing is complete,
>and there is no starch left, aren't the enzymes just sitting there doing
>nothing anyway?  Is there something else going on?

I'm pretty sure that Steve meant "conversion" in general.  Hopefully, when
you begin the mash-out, all your starch has been converted at least to
dextrines.  If you want a dextrinous wort, you want to stop the conversion
of dextrines to simple sugars.  You're right about the starch, though, you
really do want to convert all the starch, but not always do you want all
your wort's sugars to be glucose (that, by the way would be a wort destined
to be dry beer).

Then js writes:
>The other, and probably more popular method among homebrewers, is the (for
>lack of a better term) plastic bucket system.  I really don't know what this
>is called but have seen numerous references to zapp and would like someone
>else to help here.  I have never used this system but understand it to be
>adding hot water to grain in a bucket and after a prescribed period of time,
>it is transferred to another bucket with a false bottom or grain bag and hot
>water is run through this for sparging.  Some calculation and planning must
>be done to assure that the mash arrives at the right tempereature when the
>water and grain are mixed and substantial insulation is required to maintian
>the temperature through the process.  Little can be done to adjust it once
>underway.

The Zapap Lauter Tun is just that, a lauter tun and has no ties to whatever
method of mashing you use.  The Zapap tun is from Charlie's book (those
familiar with Harry Caray will realize the source of the name sooner) in which
Charlie describes several mashing methods.  I've built a Zapap and have
purchased a sparging bag, but have not done a direct comparison yet.  I plan
to first build a slotted-tube-in-cooler lauter tun and then compare all three.

>>How could it take 2 hr to run water sparge water through your grain bed
>>unless the sparge was stuck (set mash?).

>In most cases, it is by choice.  The ghurus claim that the longer it takes,
>the better the extract efficiency.  This is another debatable point but I
>suspect that in some systems, such as the grain bag approach, there is no way
>to rush the job.  In the kettle, it will run off as fast as it can get
>through the spigot.  I have to adjust the spigot to get the appropriate flow
>rate.   I also sparge with boiling water to assure that the temperature
>remains in an acceptable range.

I believe that noone has said that "the longer [the sparge] takes, the better
the extract efficiency."   Rather, all experts agree that *TOO FAST* a sparge
will lower efficiency.  There is a happy medium, which can be reduced by
keeping the grain as close to 170F as possible, throughout the sparge.

>Other than the publicity from a very popular book for the bucket approach, it
>is hard to understand why so many brewers have opted away from kettle
>mashing.  You need a kettle anyway and in this simple and (in my opinion)
>superior approach, the transition from extract to all-grain becomes learning
>the process instead of collecting a bunch of equipment.

As I've noted earlier, Charlie's book, "The New Complete Joy of Home Brewing,"
describes both single-step infusion and step ("temperature-controlled" or
"upward-infusion") mashing.  He also very-basically describes decoction
mashing and refers the reader to Greg Noonan's book, "Brewing Lager Beer."

You can build a Zapap Lauter tun for under a dollar, so your argument about
"collecting a bunch of equipment" is full of holes (pun intended).  You
can get two 5 or 10 gallon HDPE buckets free from a local bakery or
restaurant and rather than using a valve (which would be better) you can
use a length of hose and a plastic, adjustable hose (pincher) clamp.

If you bought Charlie's book, Jack, I'll bet you could learn a lot.

Back to kettle mashing for a second.  If you've got a non-removable false 
bottom, you cannot stir the liquid that is closest to the heat and it would
seem to me that Jack's pipe-and-windowscreen kettle would also make stirring
at the very bottom of the kettle inconvenient, at the least.  Both these
cases are invitations for scorching both the mash and the wort.

Al.

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Date: Thu, 6 Aug 92 11:46:24 CDT
From: tony at spss.com (Tony Babinec)
Subject: london-area pubs

A bit of background which you might already know:  English pubs are
either "tied" (attached) to one of the brewers or "free."  You want
to find a "free house" that features different beers from different
brewers.  On the other hand, a tied house is fun when you can
sample two or more beers from the same brewer and the brewer is one
of the independents such as Fuller's or Young's.    

Speaking of which, the Young's brewery is in Wandsworth and the
Fuller's brewery is in Chiswick, both on the west side of town.  I
visited Wandsworth, which I recall being within walking distance of
the Clapham Junction rail station.  You'll find several Young's
pubs there.  I didn't tour the brewery, but those who have say it's
a terrific tour.  At a Young's pub, sample the Ordinary and the
Special bitters.  At a Fuller's pub, go for the Chiswick Bitter and
the ESB!  Above all, look for cask-conditioned real ale served from
the hand pull tap.

Most pubs have a last call about 10:45 and close at 11.  So, in
order to use your time wisely, you might either try to have a bit
of food at a pub, or quaff ales all evening and then look for a
place to eat around closing time.  You can find ales at the
restaurants, and there are also some all-night dance clubs that
serve ale.

Michael Jackson's Pocket Guide recommends:

The Lamb at 94 Lamb's Conduit St, Bloomsbury--Young's pub

Star Tavern at 6 Belgrave Mews West, Belgravia--Fuller's pub

The Sun on Lamb's Conduit St.--wide range of out-of-town ales

any of the Firkin chain, for example, Frog and Firkin, 
 41 Tavistock Crescent--their own beers, including Dogbolter

The Orange, 37 Pimlico Rd--try the Porter!

The Greyhound, 151 Greyhound Lane, Streatham Common

I had the good fortune to go to London for business a couple of
years ago.  My colleagues put together a pub crawl that starts at
the Thames near the center of London and visits pubs in Chelsea and
Belgravia.  You'll notice a number of the above pubs listed below. 
You might not want to do the whole thing in one crawl!

Ferret & Firkin, Lotts Road, Chelsea--own beer

Cross Keys, Lawrence Street, Chelsea--Courage (try Director's)

Orange Brewery, 37 Pimlico St, Pimlico--own beer

Antelope, Eaton Terrace, Belgravia--Benskins

Star, Belgrave Mews, Belgravia--Fullers

Nags Head, 53 Kinnerton Street, Belgravia--Benskins

Grenadier, Wilton Row, Belgravia--Watneys

Final advice--Get a map of London, and get the CAMRA Good Pub
Guide, which you should find at better bookstores.

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Date: Thu, 6 Aug 92 10:00:34 PDT
From: jeg at sangabriel.desktalk.com (John E. Greene)
Subject: AutoMash(tm)

>From all the mail I have been receiving about the AutoMash, I thought it
would be worth-while posting the information about it here.  

Specifications:

Grain Capacity: 5 - 11 lbs.
Liquid Capacity: 18 qts. max.
Mash Steps: 1 - 5 plus delay.
Maximum Step Duration: 2hrs, 5 minute intervals.
Maximum Delay: 12 hours, 15 minute intervals.
Temperature Range: 40 - 180 F, accuracy +/- 2 degrees F.
Power Requirements: 120 VAC, 60 Hz, 1500 Watts.
Safety: over/under temp., over current, low water, all grounded construction.

Made by:
Scientific Brewing Systems
1125-B Arnold Drive, Suite 256
Martinez, CA  94553

(415) 376-6000

List price: $599.00 

I am in no way connect to SBS other than a satisfied customer.  When I first 
received the unit I had a few questions/concerns about it and called them.
I had to leave a message but they called back shortly and were very friendly
and helpful.  

- --john

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Date: Thu, 6 Aug 92 10:01 PDT
From: Bob_Konigsberg at 3mail.3com.com
Subject: Yeast growth rates

In hbd #942, John DeCarlo asks about yeast reproduction rates.

According to Dr. Lewis of UC Davis, the reproduction cycle of yeast is 
about 120 minutes.  In addition, the reproduction cycle of wort spoiling 
bacteria (he didn't specify particular ones) is about 20 minutes under
similar conditions.  This means that the wort spoilers can, in 24 hours 
(enough to let you not relax and worry), overwhelm the yeast and do 
their damage.  The yeast do eventually finish up the job, but the beer 
is already trash at that point (Unless you LIKE lactic acid).

All the more reason for a good starter.  I recommend a 1 quart starter 
with a 2 to 3 day lead time on pitching.  My friends and I then see lag 
times measured in single digit hours or less.  Since I usually brew in 
the evening, I don't stay up to watch, but it's always busy in the 
morning.

BobK


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Date: Thu, 6 Aug 92 12:29 CDT
From: korz at ihpubj.att.com
Subject: Re: Sparging

Larry writes:
>In HBD #941 Al writes
>>...
>>You're right about the difference between mash-out and sparging.  There are
>>two reasons for mash-out that I can think of: 1) stopping conversion ...
>
>This is the conventional wisdom.  There is no way a 10 min mash out at
>170f is gonna stop conversion.  I can name at least two local breweries
>that MASH at 160-162f! (Thomas Kemper and Hales) and I suspect a lot
>more around the PNW do as well.  Another 8-10f isn't going to magically
>kill the enzymes.

Enzymes are the closest things to magic on earth, really, and they are
proteins, so it's not surprising that 8 or 10F *could* denature them in
a very short time.  I'm only going by data from Fix, Papazian and Miller,
but all three mention deactivating enzymes in the mash-out.  Unfortunately,
George and Charlie are a bit sketchy on the temperature at which
Alpha-amylase (a-amylase) and Beta-amylase (b-amylase) really, denature,
but Dave says that 5 minutes at 168F will "stop all enzyme activity
positively."  Now, I don't exactly agree with this, but we must consider
the actions of these two most important enzymes.  A-amylase breaks long
chains of glucose molecules (starches) into dextrins (liquification or
dextrinization).  B-amylase produces glucose, maltose (two glucose
molecules) and maltotriose (three glucose molecules) from the starch
molecules (saccharification) but is limited when it hits a 1-6 link in the
starch chain.  A-amylase works best at warmer mash temperatures (149-153F)
whereas b-amylase prefers lower temps (126-144) and according to Charlie,
b-amylase will "become deactivated within 40-60 minutes at a temparature
of 149F."  Therefore, temperatures favoring b-amylase produce worts
that are more fermentable and temps favoring a-amylase produce worts that
are less fermentable (so, since I love beers that tempt you to spread
them on toast, I can't wait to try Thomas Kemper and Hales beers during
next years conference! -- BTW, the Winekeller Breweries here in metro
Chicago, mash at 153F and their beers are like having sex in a canoe).

What I was talking about in my post, was primarily refering to stopping
conversion in the context of making highly-dextrinous worts, although I
probably did not mention it (oops). From what I've read and experienced,
170F may not stop a-amylase from cutting a few more large dextrins (let's
hope there's no starch left) into smaller ones, but will effectively stop
the b-amylase from creating more fermentables from the remaining dextrins.

Al.

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Date: Thu, 6 Aug 92 13:02:17 CDT
From: guy at mspe5.b11.ingr.com (Guy D. McConnell)
Subject: Prime Beer Head

Sam Israelit writes:

> Subject: Beer Head and Priming
>
> I just opened the first bottle of my version of the TCJoHB Maerzen and it
> has almost no head!!!
 . . . 
> I believe the culprit is the way I primed.  ...I used 1.25 cups of (DME)
> boiled in about 2 cups of water.

    How long has it been in the bottle?  Beer carbonated with DME or gyle
takes longer to develop carbonation.  It is well worth the wait though.  I
usually find that about an extra week over what I was used to with corn sugar
does the trick.  This is, of course, only one brewer's opinion but I'm sure you
will get many others.

- --
Guy McConnell  guy at mspe5.b11.ingr.com
"Red Mountain Red goes to your head"

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Date: Thu, 6 Aug 92 9:53:51 PDT
From: gummitch at techbook.com (Jeff Frane)
Subject: Let's get our data straight!

> 
> Date: Wed, 5 Aug 92 09:54:35 PDT
> From: rush at xanadu.llnl.gov (Alan Edwards)
> Subject: Cold Break Temperature
> 
> Al Korzonas writes (in HBD #941):
> | In his talk on wort chillers at the Conference, Jeff Frane said the most
> | enlightening (to me) fact of the whole conference: that cold break begins
> | at 65F.  Wow!
> 
> Has anyone heard this statement made anywhere else?  Anyone's experience
> bear this one out?  I have a VERY hard time believing that you need to
> cool below 65F before you start getting cold break.
> 
> Before I started using an immersion chiller, I had maybe half an inch of
> break material in my primary fermenter.  Now that I chill the wort down
> to about 70F, I get at least three inches of cold break (after it settles
> for a few hours).
> 
>  -Alan

I'm sorry, I missed the posting in 941 (I was on vacation--yipee!), and
have to note that I was misquoted by Al Korzonas.  I just happen to have
a copy of my presentation here; anyone who attended will tell you that I
read certain parts verbatim and this is one: "The cold break--which 
consists of similar organic compounds--begins after the wort has
been cooled below 60 degrees C (140 degrees F)."

The problem is that Al heard "fahrenheit" when I said centigrade.  Hence
Alan's rightful confusion.


>  .------------------------------------.
> 
Phil Miller writes:
> 
> I've got a question that was prompted by something that was originally posted
> on rec.crafts.brewing...
> 
> In response to a question whether or not to boil all tap water that contacts
> your brew slk6p at cc.usu.edu wrote:
> 
> >  Tap water (at least most taps) contain VERY few bacteria or fungi.  You
> >  could hardly even find one at high magnification.
> 
> Is the above statement true? and here's why I ask:
> 
Several years ago, we at the Oregon Brew Crew had someone from the Water
Bureau do a very interesting presentation for us, which confirmed my own
experience with extract beers.  According to this fellow, even the most
thorough of water purification cannot guarantee a 100% kill of bacteria.
This isn't a problem for drinking water, as there's no real opportunity
for the bacteria population to increase -- in your glass or in your
body.  However, if you then introduce a few cells into an environment
like fresh wort -- wonderful temperatures, lots of sugars -- then you
can get plenty of bacteria.

Nowadays, when I teach beginners I always urge them to boil _EVERYTHING_
(and in fact, a full wort boil is even better, for other reasons) that
is going into the fermenter.  The system I use calls for boiling 2-1/2
gallons or so a the day before brewing, cooling it down and adding it to
the sterile carboy.  The boiled, concentrated wort is added to that.


> I'm a novice brewer with about 7 extract batches under my belt (or 'down
> the hatch', I should say :-)  I didn't really know what I was doing at first
> (like I'm an expert now...), and so some flaws in my first beers escaped me
> in the beginning.  Having had the summer to sit back and think about things,
> I realize that all my beers had the same funny, barely noticeable after-taste
>  (astringent and bitter, but not like hop bitterness).
> 
> All my batches were cloudy and one batch that I liked so much that I set some
> aside to savor over the summer developed into The Gusher Bottles From Hell*.
> It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that I had an infection
> problem.
> 
Good catch, really.  You'd be surprised how many people continue to
drink beer like this without understanding they have a problem!


> I changed a lot of things going from batch 1 to 7 including:  switching from
> a plastic fermenter to a glass primary and secondary, started using a bottling
> wand, going to the blow off method, the addition of a wort chiller, switching
> from b-brite to bleach, switching from dry to liquid yeast, dry hopping...
> Well, you get the picture.  Basically, if I saw it discussed on this digest
> twice, then I tried it at home ;-)
> 
> The things that I kept the _same_ were 1)  I rinsed all my equipment with tap
> water after sanitizing and 2)  I added 2 gallons of grocery store
> fill-it-yourself distilled water to my 3 gallons of wort after the boil.
> I figured that it's one or both of these things that's causing the infection.
> 
Change them both, why don't you. If you're sanitizing with the right
concentration of chlorine you shouldn't have to rinse at all, and you're
pretty much defeating the purpose by throwing that water onto your
sanitized surfaces -- try using boiled water if you feel a need to
rinse.



- --Jeff Frane


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Date: 6 Aug 92 14:15:00 EST
From: "CMD 2NDLT ALBERT W. TAYLOR " <S94TAYLOR at usuhsb.ucc.usuhs.nnmc.navy.mil>
Subject: Yeast Reproduction

	The question was asked how long does it take "before fermentation
begins?"  I think a point is being missed here.  Fermentation begins as
soon as the first yeast cell is capable of metabolizing sugar.  That is
as soon as it hits the wort (assuming rehydration).  More accurately, it
will begin when the yeast must shift to anaerobic metabolism, as soon as
all the O2 is consumed.  You won't see the results of fermentation until
the wort has become saturated with CO2.  I have seen CO2 evolving as soon
as 4 hours after pitching, after a very large pitching rate.

Is it just me, or did everyone get a truncated HBD on 6 August?  Will someone
please send me the complete issue?  Thanks!
Al Taylor


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #943, 08/07/92