FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Re: Sassafras; low cal ginger beer ("Stephen J. Vogelsang")
  SmartBrewers, Hydrometers (Jack Schmidling)
  sassafras (Mike Tanksley)
  Re:Wort Chilling, Some chilling thoughts... (John Devenezia)
  low-cal ginger ale (Jim Grady)
  O-rings (Philip A. Webster)
  Re: CO2 Purity (Tyson M. Kostan)
  A book I bought (Stefan Karlsson)
  Oh No! O-Rings!!!!! ("Rad Equipment")
  Yeast nutrients (Michael L. Hall)
  re: Re: Ken Johnson, the lamest (JLIDDIL) (Tim Anderson)
  misc. ("John L. Isenhour")
  Sanitizing kegs with bleach (James S Durham)
  Homegrown hops.... (aderr)
  Bulk Malt Prices (brians)
  STYRENE AND NATURAL ROOT BEER FLAVORS (KLIGERMAN)
  Re: Ken Johnson and his comments (JLIDDIL)
  extract hot-break (Bob Fozard)
  Clarification (Alan Edwards)
  Yeast Temperatures and Amounts ("Spencer W. Thomas")
  Mash efficiency comments (Martin Wilde)
  New BrewPub (fse)
  Ruby Tuesday (Mitch Gelly)
  Fresh hops vs. dried hops (Scott Barrett)
  RE: chillers (Paul dArmond)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1992 13:35:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Stephen J. Vogelsang" <sv0k+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Sassafras; low cal ginger beer

megatest!jao at Sun.COM (John Oswalt) writes:

>So my questions: Can sassafras root be obtained in the United States?  Is it
>even legal in the USA?  Can root beer be made from sassafras bark?

Here in Pennsylvania the best place to get sassafras root is in the
woods.  The trees are not extremely hard to find.  The leaves look
something like this:
(excuse crude ascii drawing)

                   OOOO
                  O    O
                 O      O
       OOOO      O      O      OOOO
      O    O     O      O     O    O
      O     O   O        O   O     O
       O     O  O        O  O     O
        O     OO          OO     O
         O                      O
          O                    O
            O                O
              O            O
                 O      O
                    OO

All of the edges are smooth, and not all of the leaves will be properly
formed.  You should be able to find some trees that are small enough to
dig up or pull out of the ground.  I would suggest doing this on private
land (yours or a friends) as it's probably not legal to dig up trees in
a park.

 -Steve

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Date: Tue, 11 Aug 92 10:12 CDT
From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: SmartBrewers, Hydrometers


 To: Homebrew Digest
 Fm: Jack Schmidling

 >From: camartens at ucdavis.edu
 >Subject: SmartCaps Info

 It seems that there is a very simple solution IF the problem is the O2 in the
 headspace.  Why not just fill the botle up and leave NO headspace?

 >From: Kinney Baughman <BAUGHMANKR at CONRAD.APPSTATE.EDU>

 >Sigh.  It's times like these that make me wish for the good ol' days
 in the HBD when the members of this forum were only interested in open
 minded, friendly discussions of the issues; when we were all genuinely
 concerned about helping each other in their quest for the world's
 perfect beer.  Remember when people used to commend us for being the
 best-behaved bunch on the net?  Remember when?

 Sounds like a real bore.  I think the "problem" is that people are starting
 to think for themselves instead of simply repeating the same tired old lines
 from popular books.

 >From: dipalma at banshee.sw.stratus.com (James Dipalma)
 >Subject: Runoff temp, mashout

 >     Whenever specific gravity is measured with a hydrometer, the
 reading must be corrected if the temperature of the solution is
 other than 60F.

 This may seem like a trivial point but that is only important when comparing
 measurements with someone else who is going through the same ritual.  One
 could be a happy brewer and make terriffic beer taking all measurements at
 100F as long as he didn't get upset about not reaching other's standards.  I
 take all gravity measurements at tap water temp and never bother correcting
 it.  This is also one of the reason my yields never seem quite up to snuff.
 However, the difference over 10-20 degrees is withing the measurement error
 of just trying to read a hydrometer.

 js


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Date: Tue, 11 Aug 92 17:07:58 -0400
From: Mike Tanksley <mtnksly at sci.ccny.cuny.edu>
Subject: sassafras


At last!  Something I know about!  In digest #945, John Oswalt writes:

>I would like to make real root beer, from recipies posted
>here and on the net.  However, I have never seen the essential
>ingredient, sassafras root, for sale anywhere in this country (USA).

>The Bread of Life, a Bay Area health food store I frequent, has sassafras
>bark, but no sassafras root.

>So my questions: Can sassafras root be obtained in the United States?  Is it
>even legal in the USA?  Can root beer be made from sassafras bark?

The same thing happened to me.  The bark is everywhere, but the root
is not to be found.  One guy even tried to sell me finely chopped
bark, and claimed that it was root.  I may be stupid, but . . .

I ended up trying the bark.  It smells great, but is unable
to impart much taste to the tea.  The result is a nice soft drink, but
not what one expects from root beer.  You might try to substitute, say,
8 or 10 ounces of bark for 2 ounces of root in 4 gallons.

You might also consider harvesting wild sassafras for the roots.  I
don't know about California, but in New York it can be located rather
easily along any major highway.  (I am at the moment too lazy to
harvest, but I plan to do so in the near future.)

Mike-Bob

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Date: Tue, 11 Aug 92 16:23:31 -0500
From: devenzia at euler.jsc.nasa.gov (John Devenezia)
Subject: Re:Wort Chilling, Some chilling thoughts...

Al Taylor writes in HBD #940:

> Before making my immersion chiller, I advocated using a 2.5 gallon jug of
> bottled water at near freezing temp to cool the wort down to pitching temp.
> This worked very well for about 10 batches.  I now use my new toy, which will
> cool 3 gallons of boiling wort to 80 degrees F in about 15 minutes while using
> only 15 gallons of tap water (at ~65 deg F).  BTW the whole thing only cost
> me $25 to build. I then add the same bottled water, but at room temp. to bring
> to 5 gallons.  I seems to me that combining the two techniques would easily
> allow for cooling to a reasonable lager pitching temp.

> Another idea, though much more elaborate, is to send the cooling water through
> a copper coil submerged in an ice bath before it gets to the wort.  This would
> cool the water down to around 40 deg, based on my crude measurements of the
> heat exchange of my chiller.  This idea may best be described as a flight of
> fancy, but I always did like the t.v. show "MacGyver".

I have devised just such a device.  I got it in my head that I wanted to bend
some copper tubing one night, so I went out the local hardware store. They
were having a sale ($21us) on pre-packaged 50' coils of 3/8" tubing for a price
lower then 25' of the regular bulk tubing. So I got the coil figuring
I could make two and give one away.  Well as I was contemplating said copper
tubing I had a brainstorm (ok maybe a brainshower).  Knowing that Texas
tapwater (or more specificly hosewater) was downright warm in the summer I
pulled my two-liter bottle soda bottle of ice out of the freezer and wound
about seven feet of coil around it.  Then I left about two feet staight and
wound the rest (except for a straight bit at the end) into a double coil.

Volia, I had created WortChiller-zilla(tm). The thing is ugly I'll admit, but
it cooled down my last batch (~4 boiling gallons of wort) in a much
shorter time then my usual ice batch (didn't think to measure said time,
it being the end of a long home-brew/drink day). I had put a frozen two-litre
soda bottle inside the small coil and put the coil in a small pan with
ice cubes.  Added a water to the ban and had a pre-chiller.  I then put the
wort chiller in the pot (I had boiled it a short time in the wort to sterilize
it) and turned on the tap water.

On the observation of a brewfriend next time I will omit the seperate pot
with icecubes and use my washtub/icebath around the pot as a pre-chiller.
That way I'll get the best of both worlds, ice bath for outside of pot
and wortchiller inside the pot.

> I'm interested to hear comments on my ideas, in public or private :-)
> Al Taylor, MS-III
> Uniformed Services University, School of Medicine, Bethesda, MD

John D.
devenzia at euler.jsc.nasa.gov

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Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 8:09:28 EDT
From: Jim Grady <jimg at hpwalq.wal.hp.com>
Subject: low-cal ginger ale

There was a post yesterday about making low-cal ginger beer by substituting
sweet & low for sugar.  The last batch of root beer I made (from extract)
I made with just half the sugar (no sweet & low) because commercial soda
pops are so sweet.  My complaint is only the lack of flavor from the extract
I used; I like the reduction in sweetness.

- --
Jim Grady                  |"Talent imitates, genius steals."
Internet: jimg at wal.hp.com  |
Phone: (617) 290-3409      |                    T. S. Eliot

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Date: 	Wed, 12 Aug 1992 08:08:59 -0400
From: pawebs at ohpspd.com (Philip A. Webster)
Subject: O-rings

O-ring?   bOring!   :-)

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Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 07:03:18 PDT
From: ty at sangabriel.desktalk.com (Tyson M. Kostan)
Subject: Re: CO2 Purity


I too am interested in CO2 purity.  There are two potential contaminent types
that I wouldn't want in my beer: those that eat wort (such as bacteria)
and those that are toxic, or add flavor to the wort (such as oils).  Anyone
with info on this, please tell.

With SCUBA gear, the main concerns are H20 accumulating in tanks (which isn't
by itself too harmful to beer, but causes lung problems in humans).  Not a
problem by its self, but it can cause the interior of tanks to oxidize (I
know aluminium oxide doesn't taste too good, and may have other ill effects).

Receintly, a friend of mine and I had his tank refilled at an industrial CO2
supplier.  The guy filling the tank laughed when he saw the size of Ed's tank
(a 5 pounder) and filled it at no charge.  I'm sure more CO2 ended up in the
atmosphere than in Ed's tank.  However, Ed has had many a successful batch
off that tank.

I still prefer to take the "Relax, don't worry..." approach.

Ty
-
 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 16:42:46 MET DST
From: Stefan Karlsson <stefank at math.chalmers.se>
Subject: A book I bought

Hi there

I bought a new book at my local brewers shop yesterday.
"The Historical Companion to House-Brewing" by Clive La Pensee.
The title imply that its about Homebrewing history, but it's even
more a book on brewing principles. He also tell how to malt & mash
at home, gives a lot of historical recipes, and a quite a few sarcastic
comments on modern Continental (i.e. Europe minus Britain)
beer ideals - he's English.
Nice reading.

Stefan Karlsson, Goteborg, Sweden.
 -
stefank at math.chalmers.se

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Date: 12 Aug 92 09:09:06 U
From: "Rad Equipment" <rad_equipment at rad-mac1.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Oh No! O-Rings!!!!!

Subject:  Oh No! O-Rings!!!!!                   Time:8:36 AM     Date:8/12/92
Not since the space shuttle blew up has there been so much attention given to
this topic. Can we please DROP this issue? If you guys want to conduct further
experiments and talk about this do it directly between each other then post a
SINGLE report on your findings.

The same goes for the attacks on other's comments, "lame" or not. Use direct
mail to work out your frustrations. Let's get back to the quiet consideration
of the finer points of home brewed beer and leave the personality conflicts
behind.

Now on to a REAL digest comment...

Beware when you pitch at warmer temps (like 85F) that as the wort cools to the
room temp (or below) the pressure in the carboy will drop and may pull in fluid
from the airlock or the blow off bucket. Be sure to pitch at sufficient rates
to get the yeast producing CO2 fast enough to compensate for the pressure
variation and keep the flow of gasses in the right direction.

RW...

      Russ Wigglesworth              CI$:      72300,61
|~~|  UCSF Medical Center            Internet: Rad Equipment at RadMac1.ucsf.edu
|HB|\ Dept. of Radiology, Rm. C-324  Voice:    415-476-3668 / 474-8126 (H)
|__|/ San Francisco, CA 94143-0628


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Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 10:23:19 MDT
From: mlh at cygnus.ta52.lanl.gov (Michael L. Hall)
Subject: Yeast nutrients


I wrote:

> Yeast
> nutrient can be as simple as ammonium chloride, but there are
> also various brand names available on the market that different
> people swear by. Any good book on making mead should have a
> discussion of this.

To which I reply:

I went home and looked this up in several books that I have on mead
(and yeast in general) and found that I was a little incomplete and
a tad misleading in my post from yesterday. Yeast nutrient is sort of
like vitamins for yeast --- it contains a lot of different chemicals.
Basically, it has all (or some) of the compounds that yeast need to
get started. Apparently, two of the things yeast need most are nitrogen
(from ammonium salts) and phosphates (from phosphate salts...duh), so
that a good substitute for the "complete" yeast nutrients is just
ammonium phosphate, not ammonium chloride, as I said yesterday. The
various brand names of yeast nutrient on the market probably have
all of the other goodies that yeast need.

The books also said that yeast would actually ferment without yeast
nutrients, but it takes a long time (like several months). A slurry
of old yeast can be used instead of store-bought nutrient, as it has
the proper goodies too.

Mike Hall
hall at lanl.gov

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Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 09:46:50 PDT
From: tima at wv.MENTORG.COM (Tim Anderson)
Subject: re: Re: Ken Johnson, the lamest (JLIDDIL)

>> Date:    Mon, 10 Aug 1992 8:31:07 -0700 (MST)
>> From: JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU
>> Subject: Re: Ken Johnson, the lamest
>>
>>
>> Obviously, Ken is full of "bullshit".  Is he a master brewer? Has he won
>> numerous awards for his fine beers?  Has he won Homebrewer of the Year?  Is
>> he a certified Judge? If not then he is LAME

I say we kill him.


tim

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Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 12:51:40 EDT
From: "John L. Isenhour" <isenhour at vax001.kenyon.edu>
Subject: misc.

bickham at msc2.msc.cornell.edu (Scott Bickham) writes:
Subject: Wheat allergies

>The biggest problem I have with his prognosis is that the contribution
>of wheat to beer is completely different from making products with wheat
>flour.  The husks are filtered out in the sparge and are not present in
>the beer, while the proteins and starches are broken down and mostly
>metabolized by the yeast.  My belief is that unless my sister is allergic to
>a specific protein in wheat that survives malting, mashing, boiling with
>hops and fermentation, then there is no foundation for the doctor to advise
>her to stop drinking "most" beers.  Does this sound plausible, or is there
>any other information we should be aware of?

This makes sense, I have heard of several people who are allergic to wheat
that are allergic to wheat beers also.  It may be possible for her to ingest
filtered wheatbeer but not some varieties of turbid hefeweissens, for instance.
If the allergy is a *mild* one (class 1 or only a coupla hundred units
reactivity), you could determine empirically by trying a few of the filtered
ones, have some antihistamines ready.  Its really hard to avoid wheat in
processed foods these days, so total exposure is the way to look at this
picture.

and

cojam at scojam.Auto-trol.COM (Scott James.) writes:

>Also, I never heard any response about culturing yeast on Tofu (soy bean
>curd, very high protein).  Does anyone think this would work as a poor man's
>substitute for agar?  Maybe this could be a cheap way to streak yeast and
>separate mixed cultures?

Its probably too low in sugar to be worth it.

and

I wrote

| (mylar?) plastic bags that had laser cartridges in them, I air them
| out for a few days and wire tie the regular gallon ziplock bag inside
| it.

>Yikes!  I cringed when I read that.  Where I work, toner cartridges are
>classified as hazardous waste--seriously!  I wouldn't want those bags
>anywhere near anything that even comes close to my mouth.  I hope you
>are at least cleaning them very well.

Thanks, these particular ones seem safe, not all others might be.

and

JKL <JLAWRENCE at UH01.Colorado.EDU> writes:
Subject: Bleach sanitation

>>Change them both, why don't you. If you're sanitizing with the right
>>concentration of chlorine you shouldn't have to rinse at all, and you're
>
>   OK, I'll bite.  What's the "right" concentration of chlorine?  I
>thought you had to rinse until there wasn't any more smell.  Won't any
>chlorine left on the equipment kill all the good stuff?  (I'm currently
>using 1-2 Tbl. of chlorine bleach per 1 gal water.)

I have been using clorine test strips from a restaurant supply for years,
I use 25-50 ppm and at that level it will go away by itself, and you can
smell it at that level.


The HopDevil


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Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 09:44 PDT
From: James S Durham <js_durham at pnlg.pnl.gov>
Subject: Sanitizing kegs with bleach


     Just to add another data point to the study, I use cornelius kegs from
     time to time.  Since I seem to finish 5 gallons of kegged beer much
     faster than 5 gallons of bottled beer, I keg my brew infrequently.
     During the long and frequent off-times, I sometimes leave the keg
     filled with bleach water to remove any residual beer (or soda) taste
     and to keep the keg "squeeky-clean."  I have never noticed any rust,
     holes, scale, or discoloration of the stainless steel keg or assorted
     parts.  Neither have I noticed any deterioration of the O-Rings.  Note
     that I usually use a standard solution of 2 T bleach per 5 gallons of
     water.

     I have a possible solution for people who do not want to taste
     residual soda in their kegged beer.  I usually keg a stout that is so
     full of flavor that I wouldn't be able to taste the difference.  If I
     remember, I'll post the recipe tomorrow.

     My reply address is JS_Durham at pnl.gov


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Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 14:39:26 -0400
From: aderr at BBN.COM
Subject: Homegrown hops....


I've been reading this newsletter for over two years, but this is the
first time I've ever posted an article. I'm an extract brewer (so far)
with 6 batches brewed. All six batches have turned out great and I
believe that this Digest has helped greatly with that. Thanks!

Anyway.... I just harvested my first batch of cones from my first-year
hops plants last night. The conventional wisdom seems to be "don't
expect to get very much from your plants in the first year". Well, I
guess I either got lucky or did something very right, because I picked
about 2 gallons (I'll weigh them after they're dry) of ripe cones and
left at least twice as many unripe cones on the vines!

I thought I'd let people know what I did, just in case it WAS
something I did right. I bought 3 Cascades rhizomes from The Modern
Brewer (in Cambridge, MA) somewhere around the first week of May. I
dug about a 3' x 2' x about 1.5'deep hole next to the foundation of
the sunny side of my house, and filled it with a mixture or topsoil,
composted manure and peat moss, and planted the rhizomes about a foot
apart and about 2" deep. We had a very strange spring this year, and
the final two frosts were several days after I planted.

I watered them every day or two, and about once a week I added a
tablespoon of Peters 15-30-15 houseplant fertilizer to the water. It
was several weeks before I saw any activity from the plants, but once
they started, it was like the best stories I've read here about hop
vine growth! I put three heavy cotton twine lines up the side of the
house attached to a crossbar held up by another piece of twine through
a pulley, so I could let the lines down at harvest time. The pulley
was mounted about 15'-18' up the side of the house. The vines grew
2"-3" per day on bad days and over 6" on good days. They hit the top
of the trellis and tried to go further, but when they decided that
they couldn't, they just started to get bushier and darker green.

By the way, I cut back all but the single best shoot from each root,
and the plants got sun from about 10am until sundown.

Next, they got completely covered with "burrs", and within about two
weeks the burrs all started turning to cones. When the cones started
looking like they might be ready to pick, I re-read Pete Soper's "A
Hop Growing Primer" (and several posts in HBD), but I wasn't exactly
sure what people meant by a "papery" feel. Well, I guess the only way
to describe it is... well... like tissue paper. They also have a
papery *sound* when you squeeze them. The main thing to keep in mind,
if you've never grown hops before, is that the sound and feel are
distinctly different from unripe cones.

I started out using scissors to snip the cones off, but after a while
I just started pinching or pulling them off with a small bit of stem
just below the cone. I have to tell you, it's a wonderful thing to put
your face in the middle of a huge bowl of freshly picked hop cones and
inhale deeply. In the words of Penn Gilette in Penn and Teller's "The
Invisible String":

     "It's a pretty thing.... it's a *very*... pretty... thing"

Now I can't wait to brew a batch of nice IPA or Steam Beer (oops,
excuse me... "California-Style Ale") with my own, homegrown hops!

Thanks for all the help,
Alan Derr
(aderr at bbn.com)

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Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 19:12 GMT
From: brians <brians_+a_neripo_+lbrians+r%NERI at mcimail.com>
Subject: Bulk Malt Prices

MHS:   Source date is:      12-Aug-92 14:31 EDT

       I have seen people quote obscenely low prices for buying malt in bulk
       on the digest.  Apparently they know something I don't.  I've just
       called around a little to Boston shops, and the best price I have
       found so far for 55# of malt runs about $0.95/lb.  Am I just in a
       malt-benighted part of the country and will have to pony up,
       or is there a loophole I am missing?

       Brian
       brians%neri at mcimail.com

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Date: 12 Aug 1992 15:19 -0500 (EST)
From: KLIGERMAN at herlvx.rtpnc.epa.gov
Subject: STYRENE AND NATURAL ROOT BEER FLAVORS

A recent concern in the HBD was styrene leaching into the wort from
plastic equipment.  Styrene appears to be a weak carcinogen in
laboratory rodents.  Styrene oxide, its primary metabolite is
a carcinogen in rodents and a fairly potent mutagen.  However, it
has not been determined if styrene is carcinogenic or mutagenic
to man (or woman) at high concentrations, and it is doubtful
that the very low levels that could leach from plastic would
be dangerous.

Natural root beer flavor comes from sassafras.  Sassafras oil
contains relatively large amounts of safrole, which is a liver
carcinogen for rats and mice.  It has been prohibited as a
flavoring agent in the U.S. since 1960.

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Date:    Wed, 12 Aug 1992 12:25:14 -0700 (MST)
From: JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU
Subject: Re: Ken Johnson and his comments

I apologize for my comments about Ken Johnson but at the same time I would ask
that he not berate people for being extract brewers and not being able to do
full mashes with great results immediately.  As with anything homebrewing is
a learning process and we all must be patient with those who are less skilled
or knowledgable.  This should be a forum for discussing brewing and it's art
and science not a putdown forum.
Jim Liddil


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Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 12:29:19 PDT
From: rfozard at sword.eng.pyramid.com (Bob Fozard)
Subject: extract hot-break

I've been doing all-grain for about the last 10-15 batches, and now I
wanna do an extract batch and reflect on the differences.  The obvious
advantage is the amount of time spent in the kitchen, but if I'm going
to spend a couple of hours in the kitchen, and invest all that good
karma into my fermenting beer, I want something that I truly enjoy
drinking.

Since I've changed my brewing technique quite a bit along the way, I
expect my planned extract batch to be somewhat better than my
previous ones.  Contemplating this, I've been thinking of other ways to
improve my extract procedure.

I'm not sure where I've seen this (maybe it was here), but is it true
that much of the hot-break has already been precipitated out of extract
syrup?  If this is the case, I would expect that the 60+ minute boils
I've done in the past did more damage to the wort (in the way of
carmelization) than good.  Perhaps this also has the effect of driving
off much of the malt aroma that someone recently mentioned seems to be
missing from extract brews.  If using hopped extract, perhaps just a
10-15  minute "sanitation" boil with perhaps the addition of
flavor/aroma hops would be the better way to go.  If using un-hopped
extract, we have the option of using pellets and doing a slightly
longer boil (30-40 minutes for pellets??), or using the liquid hop
concentrates that don't require boiling (isomerized??).  Comments
and/or experiences with this are requested.

I've tasted some pretty darn good extract brews, but none of _my_
previous extract batches were close to what I've been able to produce
with all-grain.  Probably one of my problems was with oxidation.
Typically, an extract brewer will mix the hot wort with some cold water
to get it to 5-gallons of pitching temp. wort.  I feel that splashing
the hot wort into a carboy of cold water might lead to unwanted
oxidation.  This time I will do a full-volume boil and use my immersion
chiller, but I wonder about the boil time and carmelization.  Could
this be a source (or one of them) of that extract "twang" that is
present in some extract batches.  It clearly isn't always there, at
least not by my tongue, but what causes it when it is?

- --
rfozard at pyramid.com

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Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 12:43:23 PDT
From: rush at xanadu.llnl.gov (Alan Edwards)
Subject: Clarification

(This is NOT a flame.)

Micah Millspaw wrote (as a signature, in HBD #945):

|       ==============================
|       =Thrown out of the           =
|       =Hoppy Cappers homebrew club =
|       =Modesto, CA.                =
|       ==============================

Gee Micah, that makes me look real good!  ;-)  I had nothing to do with
it folks--honestly.  I joined after he left and know nothing of the
details of his departure.  I've chatted with Micah and he seems to be a
pretty nice guy.

I know that this is inappropriate for the digest--I'm sorry--but I didn't
want you all to think I was a snob or anything, or that Micah was some
kind of a jerk to get thrown out.  (No further discussion necessary.)

Actually, I thought the signature was rather funny, considering mine.

 -Alan
 .------------------------------------.
 | Alan Edwards: rush at xanadu.llnl.gov |      Member: The Hoppy Cappers
 |     or: alan-edwards at llnl.gov      |      homebrew club, Modesto, CA
 `------------------------------------'

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Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 16:39:27 EDT
From: "Spencer W. Thomas" <Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu>
Subject: Yeast Temperatures and Amounts

GEOFF REEVES writes:
 > I concur that, within reason, there is no such thing as pitching too
 > much yeast. They Zymurgy Special Issue on Yeast is an excellent
 > reference for the things you are wondering about.

Funny, I was just reading that article this morning...  In a 5 gal
batch, you want (according to the article) 40 billion (4x10^10 for you
tech weenies) yeast cells at pitching time.  This can be accomplished
by (1) pitching 10g of viable, rehydrated dry yeast, or (2) pitching a
2 cup (500 ml if you're metric) active starter.

Dry yeast should be rehydrated at about 100F (38C).  You can then cool
it to the pitching temperature by slowly blending in 2c (500ml) of
wort.  Sudden temperature changes of >20F (10C) should be avoided.

The premise of the article is that a sufficiently large population of
active yeast will help to prevent nasty organisms from getting a
foothold in your yummy wort.


=Spencer W. Thomas 		HSITN, U of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI 48109
spencer.thomas at med.umich.edu	313-747-2778

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Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 13:21 PDT
From: Martin Wilde <martin at gamma.intel.com>
Subject: Mash efficiency comments


With all the traffic on the BS of mash efficiency, I thought I
would present the results of an experiment I conducted.

My normal sparge of 45 minutes produces roughly 70% efficiency.  This
is with my equipment.  Your equipment my produce different results.
Thus avoid the pitfalls of someone saying you must sparge for 2 hours.
My sparges flow rate starts out slowly and then is increased as
time goes by.

For an experiment I sparged for 90 minutes and my efficiency was 90%!!.
My beer was also slightly more tannic and grainy tasting (from the
milking of the grain bed for every drop).  Keep in mind, this is on
my equipment - yours will be different.

Most people I have talked to say BS to the notion of 2 hour sparges
and say grain is cheap.  The extra hour of sparging is more expensive
to me time-wise than the buck or two for the extra grain.

When you are reading a book on brewing - don't put the author on a pedistal
and assume that they are the ultimate god...  Just use whatever works
for you.

Martin Wilde                 |  And on the Eighth day, God
martin at gamma.hf.intel.com    |  made Full Sail Ale - because
uunet!intelhf!gamma!martin   |  he was tired of Samuel Adams...

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Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 14:31:25 MST
From: teroach!fse at phx.mcd.mot.com
Subject: New BrewPub

Announcing the demise of Barley's Brew Pub here in Phoenix and the
opening of Coyote Springs Brewing Co.
Now under new ownership/management, Coyote Springs Brewing Co.
will be doing some nice interior remodeling to enhance this wonderful
gathering place for you to meet with friends and enjoy the finest beers
made in Arizona.
Candy Schermerhorn, noted columnist for Zymurgy magazine, famous
for delicious recipes using beer, will be designing a completely
new menu with items based on the wonderful beers brewed at
Coyote Springs by the original Barley's brewmaster, John Vogt-Nilsen.
If you find yourselves in Phoenix, you MUST make it a
point to visit..  you'll be glad you did.

Stan Fisher..  Beer Groupie


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Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 16:29:30 CDT
From: gelly at persoft.com (Mitch Gelly)
Subject: Ruby Tuesday

Greetings,

The raspberry beer has been in the bottle a few weeks now and is just
unbelievably good. Here is the recipe, although the wild raspberries are
probably already history in most places. (Next year!)


    RUBY TUESDAY

7 lbs. light malt extract syrup
7 lbs. fresh wild raspberries
1 lb. english crystal malt       (had no lovibond rating on pkg, I'd guess ~40)
2/3 oz. cascades whole hops      (~3.5% alpha)
1 campden tablet
1 pkg. Edme ale yeast            (11.5g)
1/2 cup corn sugar to prime

Brought 2.5 gal. water to boil with crystal malt in grain bag (removed grain
bag when water was at 170 F). Added extract and brought to boil, boiled for
60 minutes.  All of hops for 45 min.

Chilled wort to ~100 F and strained into carboy (prefilled with 2.5 gal cold
water). Rehydrated yeast in 90 F water for 15 minutes and pitched, topped off
carboy with water, and mounted blowoff tube.   O.G. 1.040

After two days of healthy ferment (~75 F) added fruit. Pureed raspberries with
campden tablet, added to fresh carboy (better use a 6 or 7 gal carboy if you got
it, the fruit takes up space!), purged carboy with CO2, and racked beer into
it. Swirled it around a little to mix it up (don't shake it up) and put
blowoff tube back on. Let sit another week and bottle. I only used 1/2 cup
corn sugar to prime, and it was plenty. Didn't take a final gravity.

Comments: Color was absolutely phenominal!! Ruby red and crystal clear. Not
even chill haze. I was amazed at the clarity. Excellent raspberry nose and
flavor, sort of like a raspberry wine. As the beer would sit in your glass,
the raspberry aromatics would get stronger. Not sweet, kind of tart. Nice.
On the down side, it was a little *too* raspberry for some, not enough beer
character. Next time I will go for 9-10 lbs extract.

Very pleased with the outcome, thanks to all who sent me suggestions. I have
a peach beer in the bottle a week now, based on the same recipe except
using 12 lbs. of peaches and pale malt instead of crystal. Excellent
summertime beverages, the women (and I) love it.

And now a question: How acidic are raspberries? I have about 5-6 lbs of
raspberries left, and 15 lbs. of light clover honey, and they're just
waiting to be magically transformed into a melomel. I have not made a mead
before, and a lot of the recipes I've seen call for acid blend, or just
tartaric acid. Will 6 lbs of raspberries raise the acidity enough in a five
gallon batch, with 15 lbs of honey? And will yeast nutrient be necessary
(since there's fruit in there)?

Cheers,

  Mitch

 - gelly at persoft.com -  |   Better living, through zymurgy

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Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 13:49:40 -0500
From: adiron!partech.com!scott at uunet.UU.NET(Scott Barrett)
Subject: Fresh hops vs. dried hops

In HBD 941, CHUCKM at CSG3.Prime.COM wondered about using fresh hops rather
than dried hops.  Since harvest time is approaching in central New York, I
had been wondering about the same thing.  I decided to do a little digging.

In an article describing hop processing in the Hops and Beer special issue
of Zymurgy, it is mentioned that hops go from about 80% water to about 8%
water when processed into bales.  The answer is now within reach.

Assume that we want to determine the amount of fresh hops required to give
the bittering value equivalent to 100g of 4.6% alpha dried hops.  The dried
hops is comprised of the following:

      8.0g  H2O              8.0%
      4.6g  alpha acids      4.6%
     87.4g  other (solids)  87.4%
    ======
    100.0g

Assuming that the weight change during drying was solely from loss of
water, the 92g of non-water material in the dried hops must have
constituted only 20% of the fresh hops that were dried.  So the fresh hops
must have broken down thusly:

    368.0g  H2O             80.0%
      4.6g  alpha acids      1.0%
     87.4g  other (solids)  19.0%
    ======
    460.0g

So, the alpha level of the fresh hops was only 1% and 4.6 times the weight
of the dried hops is necessary if using fresh instead.

A general formula that can be used for different fresh and dried water
percentages is as follows:

        Hf = Hd [(1-Wd)/(1-Wf)]

Where:

        Hf is the weight of fresh hops to be used
        Hd is the weight of dried hops normally used
        Wd is the percentage of water in the dried hops (e.g. 0.08)
        Wf is the percentage of water in the fresh hops (e.g. 0.80)

Another Zymurgy article entitled "Suburban Hop Farming" mentioned that 4
pounds of hops were dried to a weight of 13.25 ounces, a ratio of 4.8.
Assuming a final 8% water content, the original hops must have been 81%
water.  This seems to support the numbers shown above.

In HBD 942, John DeCarlo gave a 6-to-1 rule of thumb for getting an
equivalent bittering value from fresh hops.  This would be appropriate if
the fresh hops were approximately 85% water.  This certainly seems within
the realm of possibility.

As always, your mileage may vary.

        Yours in brewing,
        Scott Barrett

"Believe it, if you need it.  If you don't, just pass it on."




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Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 22:20:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul dArmond <paulf at henson.cc.wwu.edu>
Subject: RE: chillers

Michael Hall has written a very good paper on the calculations required
for a counter-flow type chiller.  I believe that Mike mentioned that he was
preparing to submit it to Zymurgy.  I searched the last two months of
archives for it, but came up dry.  John Palkovic kindly sent me a copy.
There is a rights reservation at the top, so I'm retroactively asking
Mike's permission.  My system's mailer keeps bouncing Mike's address.  I
believe I can reply if he contacts me.

That being said...  Mike's calculations suggest that a siphoning
counter-flow cooler would need to use a length over 30' if it was made of
1/2" copper tubing, but that 25 - 30' of 1/4" tubing would give a good
heat exchange efficiency.  The interesting part of Mike's results is that
there is a minimum length for any tubing diameter.  Using a longer length
does no harm, but you are buying more tube than you need.

An immersion cooler will have a higher velocity, since the water is being
driven by the mains pressure, rather than a siphon.  Since heat transfer
is proportional to velocity, the tubing lengths would presumably be
shorter.  In a parallel tube immersion cooler, smaller would be better.
The length of the cooler tubes would be determined by the number of tubes
in parallel, the I.D. of the chiller tubes, the water supply pressure and
the diameter of the supply line at the tap.  Most outdoor hose bibs are
1/2" pipe, while sinks are usually 3/8".

FWIW, my 25' x 3/8" immersion cooler has an outlet temp near the wort
temp, but only if I stir pretty fast.  Also pipe is measured by I.D, but
bendable tube is O.D.  This means that tubing sizes are bigger than the
fluid cross-section.  The difference is considerable for the smaller sizes.

Paul de Armond
paulf at henson.cc.wwu.edu



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End of HOMEBREW Digest #947, 08/13/92