FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Re:  Christmas Brew (David Van Iderstine)
  New Al pot / Barleywine yeast (Jacob Galley)
  Re: Follow-up on SG vs Temp. (Larry Barello)
  re: Skimmin the Skum (Michael Tighe)
  Krudge Stout is _NOT_ a Lambic... (Paul Matulonis)
  Wyeast Belgian (Chimay) and banana ester (Bart Lipkens)
  Old Wort (Richard Colquitt)
  Beer stacks (Dances with Workstations)
  Dry ice (lg562)
  Sterility&Yeast/Honey/References (SLK6P)
  Listerman gadget & dry-hopping ("Knight,Jonathan G")
  Another horror story:  let this be an example to you (John DeCarlo)
  Skimmin the Scum from Micah Millspaw (BOB JONES)
  Skimmin the Skum (Brewing Chemist)
  "World of Beers" in Raleigh, NC (919) 541-7340" <FP$JEFF at RCC.RTI.ORG>
  re: sterile enough (korz)
  malt (attn: Tim Norris) (Brian Bliss)
  Baderbrau Pilsner  (bryan)
  beatles and hops (Russ Gelinas)
  Breiss DMS (korz)
  re: DMS and Briess Malt (John Hartman)
  HELP (David_O'Neill.Wbst129)
  Gelatin etc. (Jack Schmidling)
  Re: Hop Yields (Rick Larson)


Send articles for __publication__ to homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
  (Articles are published in the order they are received.)
Send UNSUBSCRIBE and all other requests, ie, address change, etc.,
  to homebrew-request@ hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
Archives are available via anonymous ftp from sierra.stanford.edu.
    (Those without ftp access may retrieve files via mail from
    listserv at sierra.stanford.edu. Send HELP as the body of a
    message to that address to receive listserver instructions.)
**Please do not send me requests for back issues!**
*********(They will be silenty discarded!)*********
**For Cat's Meow information, send mail to lutzen at novell.physics.umr.edu**


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Sep 92 23:17:10 EDT
From: localhost!davevi at uunet.UU.NET (David Van Iderstine)
Subject: Re:  Christmas Brew

Here's my favorite Christmas Ale, reprinted from an old HBD. I came up
with the recipe myself. It was a well-received, all-extract brew. Don't
believe any bullsh*t about brewing with extracts; you can make great beer
without ever going to grains! I have found the most important ingredient
is the yeast, and only use liquid cultures now.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
This is a composite recipe, designed to mimick Harpoon's 1991 Winter
Warmer offering.  I started with the spice list, as published in the 
Beer News (or whatever that fine newsprint rag found in various lobbies 
is called).

Armed with the spice list, I searched all my HBD back-issues for each
spice. Whenever I found one of the spices being used, I looked for its
relative weight as compared to all other ingredients in that particular
recipe. By doing this for all the spices listed below, I arrived at a
statistical "average" for the relative concentrations of all of them
together. 

Thanks to all the spice-brewers on HBD, from whom I drew my data. Maybe
this proves that composite recipes work well? Does that mean that,
armed with enough recipes, all other recipes possible can be derived
from them? That, and a roomful of typing monkeys?

 - ----------------------

BEER NAME:  Ersatz Harpoon 1991 Winter Warmer       BREW DATE:    08-Feb-92

1.058 <STARTING GRAVITY  1.014 <FINISHING GRAVITY   5.95% <ALCOHOL CONTENT

				 RECIPE
6 lbs.      Laaglander Amber DME                    extract
1/2 oz.     Black Patent malt                       grain
12 oz.      Crystal malt                            grain
8 oz.       Munich malt                             grain
1.5 oz.     Chocolate malt                          grain
1 lb.       Honey (added w/extract)
1 oz.       Clusters pellets (6.5->7.5)             boiling hops
1 oz.       Williamette pellets                     aromatics
	    Wyeast British (#1098)                  yeast
0.5 tsp.    powdered nutmeg (8 min. from end)       other
1.5 tsp.    powdered cinnamon (8 min. from end)     other
0.5 tsp.    powdered clove (8 min. from end)        other
1 tsp.      vanilla (5 min. from end)               other
1 Tbsp.                                             gypsum
1 Tbsp.     10 minutes from end of boil.            Irish Moss
3/4 cup                                             Corn Sugar

p.s.-Any amber extract will do; the crystal was English, 40 L. Any crystal
     will do.

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 9 Sep 92 22:54:05 CDT
From: Jacob Galley <gal2 at midway.uchicago.edu>
Subject: New Al pot / Barleywine yeast

A question and a recipe.

I'm in the process of taking the plunge into mashing: Today I bought
myself an 8 gallon aluminum boiling pot ($65 at Marlinn Restaurant
Supply at 73rd & Cicero, fyi south Chicago readers) -- yay! But I
forgot to ask about how to prepare the thing for use. Don't I have to
cure it somehow, like most metal cookware?

Also, a while ago someone asked about what yeast to use for
barleywine. My best beer so far is my first and only barleywine** made
about five months ago, using this technique: After chilling the fresh
wort, I racked onto a yeast cake of Wyeast German Ale descent. The
yeast chewed on this for a while, and settled down. Since I had a mead
waiting to be racked for its secondary fermentation, I racked this and
then racked the barleywine** onto the mead's Red Star Champagne yeast
cake. This produced a vigorous secondary ferment, and a yummy beer,
five months later! The recipe is an adaptation of Rob Bradley's Russian
Empirical Stout on page 5-6 of _Meow II_.

FINE LINE BARLEYWINE**

5.3 lbs	Edme Dark SFX
6 lbs	Briess Amber DMX
1.5 lbs	Briess Crystal 60^L
1/3 lb	Briess Chocolate Malt
1/3 lb	Briess Black Patent Malt

2 oz	Cluster Pellets		(90+ minute boil)
1.5 oz	Northern Brewer Pellets	(90+ min)
1 t	Dried Rosemary		(30 min) [imperceptible]
3 T	Roasted Chicory Root	(30 min)

0.5 cup	Corn Sugar for conditioning

SG 1082 -> ale yeast -> 1059 -> champagne yeast -> 1022

I used the standard "bring specialty malts to a boil" method, and
boiled only about 3 gallons of wort in my crappy ceramic coated pot which
is about to become a bath chiller. If I could do it all over again,
I'd add more rosemary and quaff a few with a venison steak. Rob Bradley 
had a very good idea when he didn't add finishing hops. The chicory
and malt alone give a hell of a nose (but Rob didn't use chicory).

By all means let it age a few months! Though it's wonderful after one
month, it becomes heavenly, as I'm finding out tonight!

**Okay, okay, I know the original gravity is a little low for a
barleywine (and on the roasty side too); so sue me. No matter what it
is, this is the first brew I'm confident enough to enter in a
competition, if there's enough bottles left by Xmas.

Cheers, etc.
Jake.

Reinheitsgebot <-- "Keep your laws off my beer!" <-- gal2 at midway.uchicago.edu

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 9 Sep 92 20:42:47 PDT
From: polstra!larryba at uunet.UU.NET (Larry Barello)
Subject: Re: Follow-up on SG vs Temp.

With regard to adjusting the SG for temperature.  Why not play it
safe and always read at the calibration temperature?  I use a tall
drinking glass filled with ice and water (enough water to make it 
easy to fit my hydrometer tube in).  Then just swirl the hot wort
in the test glass until it is to the proper temperature.  It usually
takes just a couple minutes.

BTW, this is the recommended way to do it since cooling in a pan or 
chilled pot (my earlier method) can evaporate significant amounts of
liquid, thus affecting the reading.

I think that measuring at the calibration temperature (near room temp)
is also going to avoid any errors from the expansion of the hydrometer
itself.  I know that if I measure hot wort, correct for temperature
and then remeasure when chilled I can get 2-4 points error.  Perhaps
something else is going on, but I now keep it simple and stupid and
just measure at the calibration temperature.

Cheers!
- -- 
Larry Barello			uunet!polstra!larryba

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 09:23:28 EDT
From: tighe at kc.camb.inmet.com (Michael Tighe)
Subject: re: Skimmin the Skum

Brian Walter (walter at lamar.ColoState.EDU) asks about why one should
skim the skum from mead during the boil. 

Brian - from my experience, the "skum" is particulate matter which
makes the taste of the mead "muddy" or very thick.  I've been brewing
mead for a while and I once tried a batch without any skimming.  The result
was only an OK mead with a tendency to leave a waxy aftertaste or coating 
on the tongue and a "cloudy" appearance and flavor.  Normally, if I pay 
very close attention to skimming the skum, my mead tastes very light and 
clean - so that even the lightest spicing and flavor is noticable in
the mead.

My guess is that when you use raw honey, you have miscellaneous bits of
wax, bee-parts, and pollen still in the honey.  These are too small for
mere "screen" filtering, but they create a foam when you boil the honey.
The "skum" is the white foam (later in the boil it's brown foam) that rises
to the top of the boil.  Skim it off with a slotted spoon or just a wide
spoon (and don't worry about losing some of the must, that's normal).

You'll find that skimming improves the taste of the mead quite a bit, no 
matter what the recipe!
		
Michael Tighe, Intermetrics, Inc.,  Cambridge, MA 02138 (USA)
email: tighe at inmet.camb.inmet.com,  phone: 617-661-1840

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 09:47:37 -0400
From: Paul Matulonis <paulm at sci.ccny.cuny.edu>
Subject: Krudge Stout is _NOT_ a Lambic...


OOOPS!

My apologies to all who saw my recipe for Krudge Stout in 
HBD.966; I left out the YEAST!  This recipe was part of a series 
brewed that day and I had split the yeast between three batches. 

So, to the recipe for Krudge Stout, please add the following:

After the boil, when the wort has cooled and is in the primary, 
pitch some Brewer's Choice Irish Ale Yeast.


"beer: not just for breakfast anymore!"

pm


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 09:10:44 -0500
From: lipkens at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Bart Lipkens)
Subject: Wyeast Belgian (Chimay) and banana ester


Another data point for Wyeast Belgian.
I brewed a batch of David Line's recipe for Chimay,
I think it called for pale malt, black patent, honey and brown sugar,
I forgot the amount of each. I did a regular step mash.
I fermented at 80 F (yes,80F), because of the summer in Austin and
a defect AC in the house.  Anyway, apparently Belgian brewers don't shy
away from high fermentation temperatures, so I gave a try. 
There is a notable smell of banana esters but the taste is great and
hardly (if any at all) taste of banana component. It is been in the bottle
for about three months now and still getting better.
If I brew this one again I think I might go for the high fermentation
temp. again.
Just my $ 0.02.

Bart Lipkens 

Return to table of contents


Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 92 09:13:42 CDT
From: Richard Colquitt <RCOLQUIT at UA1VM.UA.EDU>
Subject:      Old Wort

Hello ole ones of knowledge,

I recently decided to try brewing but have not yet started my first batch...
Have been doing a lot of reading to try to understand the principles in hopes
of getting an acceptible first brew. A friend who had brewed a little in the
past brought me a Gordie concentrated wort and I thought this might be a good
route to go the first time. The problem is he purchased the kit in 1985...
the yeast packet on top had a small hole in it so I considered it bad ,but
what about the canned wort...my friend said the storage would have been
between no more than 50 to 80 degrees F...should I try this wort.

                                        Thanks
                                        Richard

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 11:11:17 EDT
From: Dances with Workstations <buchman at marva1.ENET.dec.com>
Subject: Beer stacks

Rich Hogle writes:

    A long time ago, I brewed several batches of beer in succession,
    thereby giving me a stockpile of 5-8 cases which now remains more or less
    constant.  When I bottle a batch, the bulk of it ages for a month or two
    or three before it reaches the front of the stack.
						^^^^^
Since your system is operates on a first-in first-out basis, I suggest
that what you have is a queue, not a stack (which is first-in, last-out ;-)
				Jim Buchman

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 09:10:57 -0700
From: lg562 at koshland.pnl.gov
Subject: Dry ice

   Date: Wed, 9 Sep 92 12:46:26 MET DST
   From: Kurt Swanson <Kurt.Swanson at dna.lth.se>

   Chuck Coronella writes:
   >But, now that I think about it, I wonder if the dry ice might be full of
   >contaminants and nasties.  Any thoughts on that?

   Sounds like a good idea, and I doubt you have to worry about any
   contaminants in dry ice, as the extremes in temperature and pressure
   in making the dry ice probably would kill anything...

I wouldn't be so confident.  I used to make bicarbonate buffers
titrating with dry ice.  The solution that resulted was cloudy and had
"floaties" in it.  (Filtering removed most of the material.  I
eventually switched to a CO2 cylinder for titration which lead to much
clearer solutions.)  My experience leads to the conclusion that no
special care is taken to make sure dry ice is clean in any way.  

As for killing bacteria... A common method for storing bacteria is
under liquid nitrogen.  (OK, there's also 15% glycerol present too.
[Imagine a long discussion about ice crystals fracturing cell
membranes and glycerol preventing this.])  I think it has been
discussed in previous HBD's that cold is not an effective way to
sterilize.

Michael Bass
Molecular Science Research Center, K1-95
Battelle - Pacific Northwest Laboratory
Richland, Washington  99352
lg562 at pnl.gov
n7wlc


Return to table of contents


Date: 10 Sep 1992 10:48:19 -0600 (MDT)
From: SLK6P at CC.USU.EDU
Subject: Sterility&Yeast/Honey/References

Ok- a little catch up time.  The last HBD I read had a few statements
I'd like to respond to (or FLAME AT    ARDE HAR DE HAR mateys!)

1)  Sterile Enough:  E.coli culturing more relaxed than we are w/yeast.

I don't know what kind of lab your wife works in, but ALL the molecular
labs I've been in are very careful with the treatment of their cultures.
If you are doind DNA work you do not want contaminating organisms in
your cultures!  Sounds like it is not critical, or they are sloppy.

    a.  As stated, YES:  Yeast growth medium (extract) is richer than
        most E.coli media.  Hence is is more likely to develop 
        contaminants.
    b.  Many of these media contain selective agents (antibiotics) 
        which encourage growth of the specifically desired organism
        and inhibit the growthy of "growlees", like our friendly fuzzy
        fungus.
    c.  Working in a biological laboratory under normal lab conditions
        should mean a fairly sterile environment to start with.
        This is not the case for the average homebrewer.  We use kitchens,
        bathrooms, have kids and dogs and puppies romping around kicking
        up the dust, and sticking noses/fingers in our goodies.
    d.  I personally do not use a sterile hood, but use the same type of
        practices I would in the lab.  I clean my hands, and the counter 
        top (my desk) before beginning.  I use a flame source to sterilize
        utensils, and YES I DO FLAME MY TUBES!  It is VERY SIMPLE and quick.
        The goal of flaming a tube is to push air out of the mouth of the 
        tube, so fungal spores and bacterial cells are not falling in.
        The goal is not to HEAT the glass but just push the air.
        I generally NEVER heat glass (rods, tubes...etc).  
     e. Glass should be dipped in ethanol, then burn it off the surface.
        Metal should be heated till it glows.  I just let it cool in the 
        air for a second, then touch unused agar, or in liquid, let it 
        sizzle,  you'll still get cells.  If you use a proper inoculating
        loop it is designed to cool quickly.  
    f.  I have a surplus at the lab if anyone wants to trade me a homebrew-   
        I'll send you one.


2)  Honey skimming.    The way I understood it, it removes proteins/waxes
which remain in the honey, and are not desirable to the ferment.  It is 
not the SAME as skimming of blowing off of beer, since it is a product of
HEATING, not the fermentation.   It won't hurt.  BTW  the skum will settle
back into the honey upon cooling.

A honey packer on the net suggested NOT BIOLING honey, but Pasteurizing it
by heating to 150-160 for an hour or two.  He said bad things of boiling 
honey in terms of chemical modifications of the sugars.  But all the recipes
I've read describe boiling honey.  I've done it and enjoyed my meads (so
did Jack).  so what the hell.

1 pack of yeast per gallon!   Geesh.  OVERKILL!!!!!  
    a.  You will likely  have a yeasty taste.
    b.  You are spending too much on yeast. (good work on the part of you
        homebrew supplier!   Sucker.  (just kidding- we're supposed to 
        trust them.....BUT DON'T!)
    c.  Take one packet, and make a starter.  

    d.  Mead- tastes like......mead!  Champage- when it's sparkled, wine 
        when its not.  You can't put a label on it.  It's like asking
        "What does beer taste like". (nothing if we're talking american 
        or canadian pisswater) It depends on what you put in.
        I've had bubbly effervescent champagnes, to thick rich brandys.
        TIME will tell.  Make me an offer, and I'll send you a sample.

3)  HOPS GETTING IN THE WAY.  The easiest way is to wrap them up in 
cheesecloth or get a hop bag.  They'll never get into your carboy if you 
do that.  DON'T boil them separate.  You need the volume, and a full hour
of boil to get all the goodness out.  If you use pellets, mix in some leaf
hops in the back and you won't have pellet goo squeezing out.  I like 
pellets for dry hopping.  Leaf+ for boiling.
    If the hops are both fresh and packaged properly-  Leaf should 
definitely be fresher.  It has not be PROCESSED into pellets, so hey- 
it's right off the plants.

No one seems to have offered up an answer to checking IBU's of fresh
home grown hops.  I just picked some of unknown type (thanx toot), but am 
not going to worry about it.  I usually guestimate amounts anyway, so....

I would think that you could send off a sample to a hop supplier to have 
it tested.  I'll look into it.

4)  Here are a couple of references on more of a scientific bent discussing
YEASTS.  
    a.  YEAST TECHNOLOGY  G. Reed, and  T.W. Nagodawithana
    b.  The BIOTECHNOLOGY OF MALTING AND BREWING   J.S. Hough
    c.  BREWING SCIENCE   J.R.A.  Pollack

I got them from out campus library.  If anyone want more info (or selected
xeroxed for educational purposes)  e-mail me and we'll chat.

    Onward virgin soldiers......Brew on ye heathens.

                        John Wyllie (The Coyote)  SLK6P at cc.usu.edu

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 12:03:03 cdt
From: "Knight,Jonathan G" <KNIGHTJ at AC.GRIN.EDU>
Subject: Listerman gadget & dry-hopping


To any and all interested and helpful Wizards of Wort:

First question: I am an extract brewer with a little over a dozen batches 
behind me (well, o.k., they went through me, really).  Occasionally I daydream 
about going all-grain.  
Has anyone tried the "Listerman mash/sparge system" or whatever it's 
called, available from the Home Brewery?  It seems reasonably priced, and 
since I'm not a tinker-er by nature I'd be willing to spend the money if I 
had independent confirmation that it works as well as anything I could tinker 
up myself.

Second question: I like to dry-hop in the secondary using leaf hops tied up 
in a muslin bag.  Does anyone think I'd get more hop flavor if I could find 
a way to submerge the hops rather than allowing them to float on top?
If so, how should I do this?  Weight the bag down with something that will 
not react with the beer (like what?)?
Are there any dedicated pellet dry-hoppers out there?  Seems to me I've 
read some things about problems with clarity possibly resulting from pellet 
dry-hopping (which is why I haven't tried it myself), but if there are folks 
out there who can speak to the contrary, I'd like to hear from you.

Jonathan Knight
(KNIGHTJ at GRIN1.BITNET)

Return to table of contents


Date: Thursday, 10 Sep 1992 13:59:49 EDT
From: m14051 at mwvm.mitre.org (John DeCarlo)
Subject: Another horror story:  let this be an example to you

I had ano interesting experience.  I racked to my secondary fermenter,
a 5 gallon carboy.  I didn't fill it completely, which I don't normally
worry about.  However, I had this yeast starter that never grew anything
just sitting there, so I used it to top off the stuff in the secondary.

Yow!  It started foaming and oozing out the top of the carboy through the
airlock for about another six hours.

Never give your yeasties more food like that unless you are ready.

Internet: jdecarlo at mitre.org (or John.DeCarlo at f131.n109.z1.fidonet.org)
Fidonet:  1:109/131 (sysop of No Tarmac Brewing)

Internet: jdecarlo at mitre.org (or John.DeCarlo at f131.n109.z1.fidonet.org)
Fidonet:  1:109/131

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 11:17 PDT
From: BOB JONES <BJONES at NOVAX.llnl.gov>
Subject: Skimmin the Scum from Micah Millspaw



Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 09:54:00 -0600
From: walter at lamar.ColoState.EDU (Brewing Chemist)
Subject: Skimmin the Skum


>Howdy Folks,
>    I started a batch of mead the other day.  While looking for 
>recipes, techniques, etc., I came across Byron Burch's recipe for
>his "Alberta Frost" mead which won him best of show last June.  In
>his recipe he said that you should skim the scumk that forms on
>the top of the honey during the boil.  And, I believe that I have
>seen this advice at least one other time.
>    My question is, why?  I do remember talk of skimming wort when
>boiling to prevent boilover.  Is this the reason in mead?

>Live Long and Prosper,


The scum that forms on the boiling mead is coagulated albumin. If you
don't skim this off, the mead will take forever to clear out. It is
not applicable to beer brewing. Also I question whither this mead won
Byron that prize, or he won it for some other reason, known only to the
AHA.
                                Micah 
  


>On a different topic, I plan on motorizing my grain mill.  I have
>a 1700 rpm, 1/4 HP motor which I'd like to use.  I'll be attaching
>it to the mill with what I guess you'd call pulley wheels and a radiator
>belt.  I don't know who sells these pulleys though.
>Does anyone have a vendor for such pulleys, or at least an idea of
>what type of vendor sells them?

Orchard Supply hardware has a large selection of pulleys, belts and
related equipment.eir prices are okay.
                                        Micah Millspaw  9/9/92

Return to table of contents


Date: 10 Sep 1992 15:25:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Jeff McCartney (919) 541-7340" <FP$JEFF at RCC.RTI.ORG>
Subject: "World of Beers" in Raleigh, NC

This message isn't worth reading unless you're in easy driving distance of
Raleigh, NC.  On Friday, September 18 from 7:00-11:00 at the Raleigh Civic
Center will be the "World of Beers" exposition which is a fundraiser for the
Raleigh International Festival held in early October.  The cost is $15.00
per person and includes a 14-ounce plastic mug, all the 65 beers you can taste,
light food (Italian meatballs, German sausages, finger sandwiches, pretzels,
chips), music (the Little Oompah Band and Mickey Mills Steel Drums
(reggae/calypso)), and dancing.  Most of the 65 beers will be commercial
bottles (representing 20 countries) in addition to Raleigh's brewpub entrant,
Greenshields.  Beer will be served TWO OUNCES at a time.  Considering it's a
fundraiser, it might be a reasonable value..............

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 14:38 CDT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: re: sterile enough

Fritz writes:
>In HBD 965, Spencer W. Thomas <Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu> writes
>
>> I've recently been discussion yeast culture with my wife, who cultures
>> E. Coli almost daily (she's a molecular biologist).  She feels that
>> many of us are being overly paranoid about infection -- she rarely
>> flames her tubes, etc, nor does she feel that a "sterile box" is
>> necessary.  A fellow in her lab has a term: "sterile enough".
>
>Before everybody flames away about what I have to say here, let me
>stress that my methods work for me personally, and may not work for
>other people. Also, I don't know anything about yeast culturing; I am
>talking about simple brewing here.
>
>I have been following the discussion about clever ways to start a
>siphon without touching, and ways to sterilize bottles (soak in
>bleach, followed by a dishwasher cycle with baking at the end, etc.).
>In my opinion, a lot of people are worrying way too much.
>
>I rinse my bottles with hot water after use and before bottling, using
>a bottle washer. I suck on the hose to start siphoning. Everything
>works just fine for me. I have not had any infections since my first
>few batches.

First, I have a comment about Spencer's post.  I think that there's a big
difference between E. Coli cultures on (what I assume to be) a selective
media and our wort which is loved by many, many wort-spoiling bacteria
and funky-flavor-producing wild yeasts.

Regarding Fritz's methods, I agree that they may work for you and Florian
Bell too, who reported using such techniques also, years ago in HBD.
However, my comment on your proceedures is the same as the one I posted
on Florian's, namely, that it's an invitation for trouble.  If you drink
the batch in a month or two, I doubt you will ever know that you've got
a bacterial infection.  Also, if you are pitching a healthy, attenuative
yeast, it may be eating up most of the sugars in the wort, and then
subsequently in the bottle, before the infections can make a difference.
Note that these two statements are related.  Our wort is a mixture of
many different types of carbohydrates, some of which are fermentable by
our pitched yeasts and some that are not.  The dextrins (unfermentable,
long chains of glucose) and the non-fermentable sugars that remain in
the beer, and this is the most important part, ARE FERMENTABLE BY OTHER
MICROFLORA.  In some cases slowly, in others quite fast.  Some brewers who
report "I used to have infections, but now I don't" may only have changed
their procedures enough to have killed the fast-growing bacteria and
wild yeasts, but still may have problems with slow-growing ones.  Only if
you leave a few bottles around for a few months will you know.  I sometimes
use the dregs from my own beers as the yeast source for a starter in another
batch.  I must note that I only do this with beers that are made from
first-generation cultures to minimize chances of mutated strains.  Doing
this can only be possible if you're POSITIVE that you don't have an infection
in the bottle.

Finally, and I must stress that I'm *not* implying that this may be true
in Fritz's case, but some homebrewers (and commercial breweries) have
infection problems, but don't even know it.  Some wild yeasts and bacteria
make very subtile off-flavors which are hard to detect and identify and
often are referred to as "house character."   Tuesday, I had a old bottle
of Red Tail Ale which had a mild "cabbage" aroma.  This is most definately
caused by bacterial infection (one of the slow ones I mentioned earlier)
and I failed to sense this in a younger bottle of the same beer.  Also,
obviously, a dopplebock or a stout are going to cover up off-flavors a lot
more than a cream ale -- I had a stout that I forgot about in the keg and
the last gallon was a dry stout but the first four were a sweet stout only
18 months earlier -- no off-flavors or off-aromas, though.

Al.

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 14:31:43 CDT
From: bliss at csrd.uiuc.edu (Brian Bliss)
Subject: malt (attn: Tim Norris)


>I think Tim Norris deserves a metal for making the Belgium malt
>available to homebrewers. I was told when I was in Germany a few

I must have missed that digest, tossed it out due to backlog,
or simply forgotten the article.  Can you re-post and addres/phone
number, & maybe prices?

bb


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 12:33:29 PDT
From: bryan at tekgen.bv.tek.com
Subject: Baderbrau Pilsner 

A little over a year ago at the Oregon Brew Festival, I had a pilsner which
I believe was made by Baderbrau. It seems like the guy who started it/brewmaster
had worked for a major brewery in the US, but was from Czechoslovakia.

It was excellent! Very Refreshing! I just bought a used freezer for brewing in
and have a Hunter Airstat on the way, so my thoughts are turning to brewing
something like it.

Can anyone tell me what style of a beer this is? Referring to Zymurgy I see
a "Classic Pilsner" and a "German Pilsner". What beer from a major brewery
would approximiate it? The idea being it is easier to find out information about
a more widely known beer. Anyone have any all-grain recipies for a beer like 
this one?

This is really reaching, but does anyone know what the OG, SG, bittering units
and type of hops used for bittering and finishing are?

This is really my day for questions, but are Saaz hops grown in the US? Is 
there a "Saaz type" hop grown in the US?

Thanks,
       Bryan Olson
       bryan at tekgen.bv.tek.com


Return to table of contents


Date:    Thu, 10 Sep 1992 15:54:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: R_GELINAS at UNHH.UNH.EDU (Russ Gelinas)
Subject: beatles and hops

  Tom Rush posted a great list of hops yields in New England, and mentioned
that the Japanese Beetles ate some varieties, but not others.  I've 
noticed the same thing; they destroyed a Hallertaur, but barely touched the
Cascades just a couple of feet away.  Tom, do you have more info you could
post on just which varieties the beetles liked, and which they didn't?  Sure
would make my summers easier if I didn't have to deal with the JB's.

Russ

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 15:27 CDT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Breiss DMS

DMS gets produced from its precursors when the wort is above 140F.  It's
true that different malts have more or less of these precursors, but
as Jim suggested, technique can also be a big factor.  During a vigorous
boil, the DMS gets boiled off, so a non-vigorous boil can increase your
DMS levels.  When the heat is turned off, is when most of the DMS that
remains in your beer gets produced.  Cooling quickly with a wort chiller
to below 140F is the best way to minimize DMS production during this
stage of the process.  I'm sure that Micah uses a chiller, guessing this
based on the equipment he built and was displaying at the National Conference,
so the only factor I can guess, if Micah's boils are vigorous, is tapwater
temperature.  Perhaps Micah's tapwater is warm and an ice-bath pre-chiller 
would help cool the wort quickly enough to keep DMS below sensory thresholds?

As a related aside, I recently, reluctantly drank Old Style beer (at a Cubs
game) and noted an incredible DMS nose.  Jackson writes of Old Style
(something like): a weak little beer with corn in the palate.  Does G.
Heilemann's use Briess?

Al.

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 10:48:28 PDT
From: hartman at varian.varian.com (John Hartman)
Subject: re: DMS and Briess Malt


In digest #966, jim busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com> makes a very good point:

>I just have a problem with homebrewers claiming such problems since so
>many micros, pub breweries and mega breweries use the same malt without
>DMS problems.

I've considered this argument too and must admit that it's a compelling one.
Nevertheless, after the first bad batch I was extra careful in every aspect
of brewing the following batch.  It too suffered problems similar to the
first.  It has a DMS nose and is quite cloudy.  I pitched it with a healthy,
adequate starter and gave it plenty of aeration.  Fermentation had begun within
12 hours.  Both of these beers were ales.

Let me say that I've always used Briess malt.  That's probably
30 or 40 batches over the last two years and this is the first time I've
had a problem.  I've been quite happy with the malt until now.

Mega breweries likely conduct expensive analyses on the grains they use
as part of their quality assurance.  If anything can be said for the
megas, it's that their quality is unquestioned.  I.e., they consistently
produce their (insipid) products free of defect.

I'm not saying that all Briess malt is bad.  I'm saying that the particular
lot that I'm currently using likely is.  I wish I had the sophistication
necessary to prove this.  Then I wouldn't feel spooked, as I presently do.
Under my circumstances, I found Micah's experiment involving Briess and Great
Western malts quite compelling.

Micros who experience a problem such as this will not necessarily make mention
of it.  Perhaps it's happened and we haven't heard about it.  Certainly none
would brag.  "Say, have you tried our new Campbell's Creamed Corn Ale?  Mmmm
good.  People just can't stop talking about it" :-)

Thanks to all who have recommended ideas about motorizing mills and bay
area grain vendors.

Cheers,
John

hartman at varian.varian.com



Return to table of contents


Date: 	Thu, 10 Sep 1992 14:45:46 PDT
From: David_O'Neill.Wbst129 at xerox.com
Subject: HELP



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 12:11 CDT
From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Gelatin etc.

 
 To: Homebrew Digest
 Fm: Jack Schmidling
 >From: jeorg at chs.com (Houck)
 
 >could someone send me a quick description of how to use
 gelatin to clear a batch? (jack, i think you do this)
 
 Did... not "do".  The last time I did it was the batch I took to Milwaukee 
 because I was pressed for time.  Judging from the reaction to the beer, I am 
 not above using THAT as an excuse for its lack of character.
 
 However, it really does work and if you want to try it....
 
 Heat 1/2 teaspoon of gelatine in a cup of water or beer to about 180F to 
 Pasturize it.  Pour this into a clean carboy and rack your beer onto this.  
 It will clear within a few days.
 
 For what it is worth, I tried it on my dandelion wine and it had no effect 
 that I could see.  It just does not want to clear.  I suspect this is a 
 problem with raisins and will never use them again.
 
 The "Fall Wine" is in the primary ready to be racked.  It is 5 gals of apple 
 juice and 11 lbs of mixed fruit... grapes, elderberries and mullberries.   
 All from the garden.  I added 5 lbs sugar to get the gravity up to 1.080 and 
 will no doubt have to add more to finish it.  At this point, the mullberries 
 seem to dominate the flavor.  I used pure cultured RS champagne yeast and 
 expect a dry, rose colored table wine.
 
 js
 
 
 

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 12:53:09 -0500
From: melkor!rick at uunet.UU.NET (Rick Larson)
Subject: Re: Hop Yields

Tom Rush asks about hop yields.  Here is my yield for my first
year crop in order of yield.

Northern Brewer - about 25 ounces
Cascade - about 20 ounces
Willamette - about 9 ounces
Fuggles - less than one ounce
Saaz - No cones :-(

All plants very healthy (didn't notice any bugs or eaten
leaves) but outgrew my 14' hop poles in July.  The Northern
Brewer grew to the top and back down and long the garden fence.
Next year I'm increasing the poles to 20'.

I got my rhizomes locally at Brew and Grow, (612)780-8191.
Don't call before midnight tonight, they stock them in the spring.

I noticed no allergic reactions just sticky fingers :-).

rick 		rick at adc.com

Return to table of contents



End of HOMEBREW Digest #967, 09/11/92