FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  various (Russell Owen)
  Sorbate, geranium, Sweetening, H2S (G.A.Cooper)
  Re: GABF (wegeng.henr801c)
  Sugar Beet Molasses (Karl F. Bloss)
  Re: John Harvard's Brewhouse, Cambridge, MA ("Jim Daly, Digital Equipment Corp., Maynard, MA  12-Oct-1992 0955")
  yeast nutrient (Rob Bradley)
  Raspberry Ale Request (William James Harrison)
  S.F. info request, malt liquor? (Brian Smithey)
  near-flat beer (Tom Tomazin)
  Yeast starters from Micah Millspaw ("BOB JONES")
  Brew Cap Fermentation System ("Hampden D. Kuhns")
  Spelunking at Chimay (C.R. Saikley)
  More on Belgium (C.R. Saikley)
  Glo:gg and essences (ZLPAJGN)
  low and high gravity propagation (George J Fix)
  pitching temp (Mark Garti  mrgarti at xyplex.com)
  Sweetening (korz)
  Re: haze (korz)
  Brewpub in Long Beach, CA area (Bill A. Danforth)
  Bottling session from hell  (a little long) (SHERRILL_PAUL)
  Brewpubs in Baltimore (AAAF000)
  Brews Bros. 2nd Annual RHB Competition (Darryl Richman)
  Sake (Brewing Chemist Walter)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 07:41 EST
From: Russell Owen <OWEN at VAXE.NIEHS.NIH.GOV>
Subject: various

Please give your _opinions_ on the topics below; respond by 
posting or by direct email to me (OWEN at NIEHS.BITNET).

A PROPER BEER TASTING:
	What is a reasonable max # of beers to sample?
	(How) is the palate cleared between samples?
	Is there a preferred sequence of types?
	Is it better to stick to a single genre?
	What, if any, food should be co-consumed? 
CHLORINE BLEACH SANITIZATION:
	What dilution is low enough not to require rinsing afterward.
	As the solution is unstable, how might one easily test the 
		strength of the concentrated stock at home before 
		making the maximum usable dilution?
HOPS CULTURE:	
	Please mail me addresses for mail order of cuttings/roots.
	I would be appreciative of tips on pampering these plants.
	If you are willing to send me some of your own cuttings or
		roots, I would appreciate your generosity.
	BTW, I live in Durham, North Carolina, USA
THANK YOU

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Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 13:25:56 +0000
From: G.A.Cooper at qmw.ac.uk
Subject: Sorbate, geranium, Sweetening, H2S

These threads don't seem to have been picked up so ...

> Michael Blair (Univ. Colo.-Denver)

>                 Anyway, I now religously us 1/2 
> teaspoon of Potassium sorbate per gallon of hooch at bottling 
> time.  This prevents yeast from budding, i.e. it will inhibit
> renewed fermentation.  IT WILL NOT STOP ACTIVE FERMENTATION.

> Potassium sorbate is commonly found in wine making supply shops 
> and is usually called "stabilizer".  

As Michael says 'Sorbate' is an inhibitor - it doesn't kill anything
especially not bacteria. So a word of caution. Some strain(s) of lactic
acid bacteria can attack sorbate and, it is said, produce geraniol (or
is that 2-ethoxyhexa-3,5-diene? I had to look that one up) which inparts
a strong smell of geraniums (and a corresponding off-flavour). If sorbate
is used then you must sulfite at the same time to kill off the bacteria.
The problem can also occur later if the 'hooch' gets contaminated later.
So, because of the hazards, only stabilize if you need to. There is no
need (IMHO) to stabilize a dry wine - If you get a secondary ferment then
it wasn't dry was it? (Digression: unless of course it is a malo-lactic
ferment, which in itself implies the presence of lactic acid bacteria, 
which could, just as easily, be the strain that attacks sorbate, OK?)

Also Michael he asks:

> Anybody have any successful sweeteners besides granulated sugar?

Probably a number of people have replied suggesting lactose, which is not
fermentable, and artificial sweeteners including sorbitol. Has anyone
suggested xylitol? (the first syllable is pronounced like the start of
xylophone). Although slightly expensive, it has the same perceived 
sweetness as sucrose (lactose only has about 1/4 the sweetness) and 
doesn't suffer from the bitterness of some artificial sweeteners. It
occurs naturally, in small amounts, in raspberries, strawberries and
yellow plums. It is my preferred sweetner if I have it to hand.

Prior to that, Neil (kruse_neil at tandem.com) posted:

> A few days ago I made a gallon of hard cider.  However, when I
> smelled in the bottle is smelled like rotten eggs.  What would
> cause this to happen?

Hydrogen sulfide, H2S, is a natural by-product of yeast fermentation. 
Different strains produce it in different quantities and, being gaseous
is normally scrubbed out by the CO2 being produced. So if you get it in
a fermentation, don't panic it usually goes away. Only if it persists do 
you have a problem. Some of the causes: if the must is heavily sulfited 
some yeasts will reduce the excess SO2 and produce H2S; its production is
more likely if the wine/cider is allowed to stand on the 'lees' too long; 
and also if the 'must' is deficient in some nutrient components (especially
pantothenic acid I am told). If caught early enough in a finished wine try
racking and sulfiting
        H2S + SO2  -> H2O + 2S    (if you are lucky)
then filter to remove the elemental sulfur.

In bad cases you can get related, offensive, compounds such as thiols and
mercaptans, which won't react to sulfite, so you could resort to using
copper. You can expose the wine/cider to some newly cleaned strips of 
copper foil or wire. (The very brave, which excludes me, will add a pinch
of copper sulfate (poison :-() to a gallon of wine!). The copper reacts
with the sulfur compound to form insoluble copper sulfide. Then fine with 
bentonite to take out any residual traces of copper.

Another technical posting from a non-chemist. Will you chemists out there
read the above and correct me if the are any errors. Ta.

Geoff


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Date: 	Mon, 12 Oct 1992 06:14:57 PDT
From: wegeng.henr801c at xerox.com
Subject: Re: GABF

> I note that Lowenbrau Dark took several medals and my first reaction is to
 >conclude that the GABF must be a farce.

Lowenbrau Dark took exactly one medal: a Silver in the Dark Lager catagory.  I
assume that what you`re really trying to point out is that several catagories
seemed to be dominated by the megabreweries.  This is no accident - the
characteristics of these catagories were designed to allow the megabreweries to
win some medals.  Why?  Because the GABF needs their support.  A glance at the
program from this years event will show that the megabreweries provide much of
the funding for the GABF.

Some people may cry `foul` for this, but I don`t have a problem with it.  After
all, these beers are significantly different from the beer brewed by most
microbreweries, and a *lot* of people like to drink the megabrewery stuff, so
why not consider these styles to be different?

/Don
wegeng.henr801c at xerox.com

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Date: Mon, 12 Oct 92 09:22:57 -0400
From: blosskf at ttown.apci.com (Karl F. Bloss)
Subject: Sugar Beet Molasses

I noticed in the last HBD someone said something about beet sugar, which is
a large source of refined sugar in Germany.  I brought back some sugar beet
molasses last time I was there since we Westfalians like it on Reibekuchen
(potato pancakes).  I never thought about it before, but does this have a 
possible future in my homebrew?  The taste is totally different than cane
molasses, at least the part that not just _sweet_.  Suggestions other than
"give it a try"?
 -Karl

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Date: Mon, 12 Oct 92 06:52:11 PDT
From: "Jim Daly, Digital Equipment Corp., Maynard, MA 12-Oct-1992 0955" <daly at mast.enet.dec.com>
Subject: Re: John Harvard's Brewhouse, Cambridge, MA


   Unfortunately, Charlie, John Harvard's doesn't have it's on-premises brewing 
license yet.  Their beers are all currently brewed across the river at Mass Bay 
Brewing in Southie (...Harpoon), so they're not technically a brewpub yet 
(yeah...but all that copper behind the bar LOOKS good!).  I stopped in again 
yesterday for a pint and was told that they're now only "one signature" away 
from approval.  They opened the same week that Harvard and MIT started their 
fall semesters and had hoped to start brewing within a few weeks.  Maybe by 
winter... 

   BTW...the owners of John Harvard's are starting construction next week on 
the Boston area's 5th brewpub (on Newbury Street).  Hopefully they'll try to 
have their brewing licence BEFORE the new place opens in the spring!


Jim Daly (daly at mast.enet.dc.com)  



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Date: Mon, 12 Oct 92 10:08:31 -0400
From: bradley at adx.adelphi.edu (Rob Bradley)
Subject: yeast nutrient

I posted last week (HBD985) in the matter of cider.

In autumn 1990 I made both cider and mead.  I used yeast nutrient
in the mead and it turned out well (with aging; I still have 4
bottles from that season).  I made cider without nutrient.  It
turned out well, but the fermentation was slow and extended.
It also needed long aging.

After 23 months of brewing nothing but beer, I made cider again this
year.  I used yeast nutrient and was impressed: fermentation got
off to a flying start with a real krausen head and did most of its
work in about 4 days.  I drank the first 1/2 gallon batch on day
10 and was duly impressed.  With that success and a fifth straight
batch off to a flying start, I posted on my experience and recom-
mended using nutrient to all cider makers.

Among the e-mail I received was one letter claiming good results
without nutrient and another telling of off flavors coming from
nutrient in cider he'd made.

The nutrient I used in the 1990 mead and the first two batches of
1992 cider was from Lil' Olde Winemaking Shoppe in Illinois.  It
came in a plain zip-lock bag and was simply labelled `yeast nutrient'.
I bought some Wine Inc. nutrient more recently and yesterday racked
a batch made with that.  The hydrometer sample had a metallic flavor.

Could be a random problem.  Could be caused by the new type of
nutrient.  Could even be that the nutrients were the same and, having
tehe suggestion planted in my head by Thomas M., I found something
that I missed the first time.  Or imagined something that was there
in neither batch.

The Wine Inc. nutrient lists its ingredients as `food grade urea and
ammonium phosphate'.  Visually, the old batch seemed different: coarser,
more translucent crystals.

My questions:

 * Anybody willing to share, by e-mail, experiences of cider
   successes/failures with/without nutrient?

 * Does apple juice/cider have natural nutrients?  (On a related note,
   it seems that raisins do: B vitamins, some protein, minerals.)

 * What's the big deal with ammonium phosphate, or the aluminum
   salts Thomas told me about?  There isn't anything like that
   in the naturally occuring yeast nutrient components of wort,
   is there?

 * Urea?  Goodness, it's the major component of urine!!!  Seriously,
   It's CO(NO2)2 so undoubtedly provides a good source of much-needed
   nitrogen.  Nveretheless, it's a poisin that mammals need to get
   rid of.  Maybe it's not poisonous to yeast, but should I be
   drinking it, even in trace amounts?

 * Anybody got any suggestion on natural yeast nutrient (perhaps
   something like the de-activated brewer's yeast sold in health
   food stores)?

For the record, I NEVER use nutrient in beer.


Cheers,

Rob (bradley at adx.adelphi.edu)

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Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 07:45:35 -0400
From: William James Harrison <harriw3 at rpi.edu>
Subject: Raspberry Ale Request



I have about four pounds of frozen/fresh raspberries and would like
to make an ale with them.  I have an idea of the recipe that I will use
but would like some/any input as far as suggestions or even full recipes
if there are any good ones out there.

Thanks for the help,
Jim

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Date: Mon, 12 Oct 92 09:06:26 MDT
From: Brian.Smithey at Central.Sun.COM (Brian Smithey)
Subject: S.F. info request, malt liquor?

>>>>> rwinters at nhqvax.hq.nasa.gov (Rob Winters) writes:

Rob> While I'm posting, does anyone know why the GABF has decided to give
Rob> exposure to malt liquor? This "Olde English" stuff is making teens
Rob> and others all over the country dead and brain-dead in 40 oz. increments,
Rob> and they give it a category and a gold medal!?


I get the feeling that the GABF provides a category for almost every
style of beer that is brewed in the US.  And while I find many of these
categories less than interesting (including dry, light, dry-light,
dry-light-draft, and the other dozen or so aliases for North American
Light Lager), I suppose they do have their place.  But if the GABF
people expect us to believe that they really do have appreciation of
good beer and socially responsible use of beer as an alcoholic beverage
as goals, then they're going to have to do away with the Malt Liquor
category, a "style" whose marketing tactics have nothing to do with
responsibility.  Giving gold medals to A-B, Miller, et. al. may be a
nice gesture, a way of repaying them for the dollars they pump into
fighting the temperance movement, but I think that recognizing Olde
English 800 and the others in that category is going beyond the call
of duty, as well as contradicting the goals of the Festival.

If you agree, tell it to the Association of Brewers:

	PO Box 1679
	Boulder, CO  80306-1679


Brian
- --
Brian Smithey / Sun Microsystems / Colorado Springs, CO
smithey at rmtc.Central.Sun.COM

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Date: Mon, 12 Oct 92 10:20:54 CDT
From: tomt at nano.sps.mot.com (Tom Tomazin)
Subject: near-flat beer

Hello.

I am having a problem with near-flat beer.  That last four batches that 
I have brewed have been under-carbonated.  For the first two, I 
thought that it might have been over sanitizing my bottles and leaving
enough residual chlorine to kill my yeast.  So for the last two, I used
the diswasher.  No chemicals or detergent at all.  I primed with 
3/4 cup corn sugar,  waited two weeks (bottles were kept in a cabinet at
a temperature of about 83 degrees), and tried one.  There was some carbonation,
but very little.  Waited longer but did not improve.  3 weeks ago, 
I popped open 4 bottles and added 1/4 teaspoon of corn sugar to each. 
The first one foamed all over the kitchen, but I capped the other three
before the reaction got started.  Tried one last night, and the 
carbonation level seems EXACTLY what it was before.  What gives?  I'm
using wyeast american ale, if it matters.
Thanks, 
Tom

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Date: Mon, 12 Oct 92 09:37:11 PST
From: "BOB JONES" <bjones at novax.llnl.gov>
Subject: Yeast starters from Micah Millspaw


 I seem to have stirred the hornets nest, good.
 
 Per the many requests to further expand on my yeast growing practices,
 here goes. And nobody accuse me of JSing.
 
  I have been using powdered sugar in my yeast starters for
 the last 4 years with great success. When I started brewing there was 
 very little info available on homebrewing in my area. I'd been brewing
 for a while when the liquid yeasts came out, so I switched to using
 them, worked fine. Later on when I built the big brewery (1/2 barrel)
 I needed more yeast to pitch. I called up my hb retailer and his advice
 was to buy several of the yeast packets, this was unacceptable. And
 so being on my own I started reading and trying ideas. A lot of good
 info came from a course in cellular and molecular biology at CSUS.
 So I got some nutrients and sugar and started growing yeast and making
 great beer. Never gave what I was doing another thought until I met
 Bob Jones. One day this topic came up and when I mentioned what I was
 doing he wanted to know why it worked and if it did, why did no one
 else do this. Things got realy involved after that. It was found in
 a yeast textbook that of effect of different sugars on the ability
 of brewers yeasts to respire (and reproduce) supported my techniques.
 Conversations with Clayton Cone of Laalmande and Mary Miranda of UC Davis
 indicated that I was not doing anything terrible and in fact was in
 a inefficient manner doing what the commercial growers do. The object
 is to get the yeast to reproduce, not to ferment, so you need not worry
 about getting a selective breeding program by accident. This whole
 mess lead to further work with yeast and total aerobic growths followed
 by totaly anaerobic fermentions but that is outside the scope of this
 digest.
  So heres what I do to just build up a starter.
 I boil water and powdered sugar together with some yeast nutirent for
 about ten minutes, cool it and add the yeast, and shake well.
 The solution has approx 1020 gravity. Once a day i will "feed" the
 yeast some more sugar solution of successively greater concentations
 to allow for dilution of additional liquid. From a yeast packet i can
 grow up to my pitch volume of 700mls dense slurry in three days with
 out a lot of excess liquid involved to dilute to wort. The yeast is 
 grow at 80 F. I normaly see 2 hour lag times with 15 gallon batches.
 Sanitation is important so be carefull.
                             
                                 Micah Millspaw
                                       10/9/92
!

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Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 12:37:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Hampden D. Kuhns" <hk26+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Brew Cap Fermentation System

Has anyone tried using a Brew cap fermentation system?  It's one of
those caps that you put on your carboy and then turn the whole thing
upsidedown.  Supposedly you can extract your kruesen and trub at the
same time.  It sounds like a good idea but I'm too chicken to turn my
fermenter upsidedown and hope it doesn't leak.  Does anyone have any
experience with this item?


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Date: Mon, 12 Oct 92 10:46:30 PDT
From: grumpy!cr at uunet.UU.NET (C.R. Saikley)
Subject: Spelunking at Chimay

This one is somewhat embarrassing, but makes for a good story.

CR

============================================================================

In the southernmost part of Belgium, as the countryside becomes more and more 
French, the lies an Abbey named Notre Dame de Scourmont. Beer aficionados know 
it simply as Chimay.

My unlikely adventure at the abbey began when I met Frere Jacque in the visitors
center. Frere Jacque had lived in a monastery off of the coast of Wales for 33 
years, and his command of English was a welcome blessing. I inquired about 
visiting the brew house, only to be told that it was "Not for the public". Not 
wanting to miss anything, I expressed my sincerest devotion to the craft (after 
all, I had traveled over 5000 miles on my thirsty quest). Upon hearing my story,
Frere Jacque did his utmost to arrange a tour. It turned out that the brewmaster
was occupied, so Frere Jacque was given permission to escort me through the 
brewery. Since his work was in the abbey's gardens, my guide knew little about 
the brewery. So we struck a deal, he'd show me around the brewery, and I would 
explain it to him.

We passed through the inner courtyard, and much to my surprise he led me into 
one of the most modern breweries I've seen anywhere. Gone were the romantic 
images of traditionally clad monks stirring big vats of wort. Instead I saw an 
enormous 372 hecto liter (316 barrels) computer controlled stainless steel 
system. When it comes to brewing, these monks are definitely not stuck in 
tradition.

We moved on to the primary fermenters, rectangular stainless vessels about 
12' X 14' X 14'. Peering into an empty one, I decided to take a photo. As I 
attempted to compose my picture in the dark, an ominous sound was heard......  
a slight "click" followed by "tink tink tink". Much to my chagrin, the battery 
cover on my flash decided to detach itself, and drop into the fermenter! Half 
in a state of shock, I explained the predicament to Frere Jacque while his 
earlier words rang in my head, "Not for the public......Not for the public...
 ...Not........

Since he was the gardener and I the brewer, Frere Jacque immediately asked 
me the obvious question, "What shall we do?" Wishing to assure him that 
everything was under control, I proceeded to instill confidence by stammering 
and stuttering indecipherably. There was a brief moment of lucidness, and we 
began searching the brewery for a ladder and a flashlight. We eventually found 
a ladder on the top floor, and then started our harrowing descent back down the 
spiral staircase. As we gingerly maneuvered the ladder down the stairs, I 
couldn't help noting the beautiful stained glass windows. Given the recent chain
of events, it seemed inevitable that things were only going to get worse, but 
fortunately the windows survived. We arrived at primary fermenter #8, and down 
I went in search of my wayward battery cap.

By the time I reached the floor of the tank, I was having flashbacks to 
conversations I'd had with other Belgian brewers, "You'll never get in to 
Chimay............Not for the public.............You'll never get into 
Chimay.......

Groping about on hands and knees in the pitch black delirium, I eventually found
what I was looking for, and could then focus my attention on the ascent. I 
turned to the small window, emanating a single shaft of light from above. Frere 
Jacque's angelic face was complete with halo and perfectly framed. The roar of a
thousand Hallelujah's reverberated in my head as I rose up into the light and in
to Frere Jacque's embrace. As I made my way out of the tank, Frere Jacque's 
voice cut through the din, "You must feel very, um, embarrassed." I could only 
nod in agreement. He responded by saying, "It is OK. I can wear your shoes."

The brothers of Chimay encourage visitors to tour the bottling plant nearby, but
the brewery is definitely "Not for the public."

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Date: Mon, 12 Oct 92 10:46:00 PDT
From: grumpy!cr at uunet.UU.NET (C.R. Saikley)
Subject: More on Belgium

Here are a couple of pieces I wrote for the Celebrator Beer News about my
trip to Belgium last summer. Some of you may have seen them before, but the
overwhelming majority probably have not. I hope they're entertaining.

CR

==============================================================================

			Belgian Impressions

For the true beer devotee, there can be nothing quite like a trip to Belgium.
No other place on earth can boast beers of such variety and depth of character.

Belgium is a small country bordering France, Germany, and the Netherlands,
whose 10 million inhabitants are culturally and linguistically divided. In the
southern part of the country, known as Wallonia, the people speak French.
In the north and west, the language is Flemish, which is similar to Dutch.
Only in the capital city of Brussels do the two coexist. 

This tiny country is a haven of many gastronomical delights. The Belgians have 
taken both food and drink to an extreme state of refinement, and some of the 
finest cuisine I've ever experienced has been there. Meals are taken at a very
leisurely pace, and typically served with beer. To borrow an idea from
Jackson, Belgian food matches that of the French in its sophistication,
while the portions would satisfy the appetite of a German.

As in most brewing countries, public houses are very popular. The Belgian
embodiment of the public house is the cafe, or estaminet in French. The cafe 
is a center for socializing and conversation, and of course refreshment. As 
such, it is the ideal environment to experience the world of Belgian beers, and
even the most modest establishment will usually offer 12-15 selections. A cafe
specializing in beer may have a bewildering 100-200 choices, and some can be 
found with over 1000.

Although great beer is commonplace in Belgium, it is by no means taken for
granted. Unlike most of the world, the Belgians regard beer as the noble 
beverage that it is, and treat it accordingly. When serving, each beer is 
presented in the appropriate glass, often with its own coaster. When
consumed, the experience is slowly savored. Such ceremony is not reserved for 
special occasions, for beer is generally considered an essential part of 
everyday life.

Unfortunately, all is not well in paradise.

Like people everywhere, many Belgians consider their government inept, and a
recent anti-alcohol campaign would seem to confirm this. The state has
started spending large amounts of tax dollars on a massive advertising
campaign which glorifies abstinence and sobriety. As a result, some members
of the brewing community feel that beer drinkers are being cast in an
unfavorable or even immoral light. The immoral overtones are especially 
ludicrous when one considers that some of the finest brews come from the 
monasteries of Chimay or Orval.

Even more unfortunate, the oft repeated theme of the big guys swallowing up 
the little guys is at epidemic proportions in Belgium today. This past year 
has seen the closure or takeover of 15 small breweries, including two brewers 
of Lambik in Pajottenland. A quick comparison of the original and updated
versions of Jackson's World Guide to Beer makes this trend painfully obvious.
Not only are smaller breweries disappearing, but entire styles are endangered. 

The two major brewers of industrial Pils, Jupiler and Stella, have merged to 
form a large brewing consortium called Interbrew. Maes, another large brewer 
is part of a larger French company. Furthermore, Heineken appears to be flexing
its muscles. Most beer devotees in Belgium detest the formidable brewing giants,
while each year, more and more of the small traditional breweries are forced 
out of business by the consortia.

All is not doom and gloom however. There are several signs of a growing
resistance. One of these is a very active consumer group named the Objective 
Beer Tasters. Similar to Britain's CAMRA, their goal is to promote craft
brewing through public awareness, and their ranks or growing. Furthermore,
certain beer styles, notably Wit and Faro, are enjoying a resurgence in
popularity. Until a few short years ago, both were practically nonexistant.
Finally, there is a small trickle of new artisinal breweries striking their
kettles and celebrating the uniqueness of Belgian beers.
 
This may not seem like much, but in the US in 1980, there were far fewer 
indications of the pending microbrewery explosion. Will there be a similar
revolution in Belgium? Most Belgians seem doubtful, but having lived through
one renaissance, I can see more than a glimmer of hope.


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Date:    Mon, 12 Oct 92 16:14 CDT
From: ZLPAJGN%LUCCPUA.bitnet at UICVM.UIC.EDU
Subject: Glo:gg and essences

Dear Brewers,

For the past two weeks or so, Erik (sorry, I still don't have your
last name..),  Geoff Sherwood, I and others have been e-mailing
eachother in search of Glo:gg essence - either in its extract (or
"tinctute") form, or perhaps the raw ingrediants along with the
recipe to make our own.  I've looked all around the "Swedish Village"
here in Chicago, but have little more than the raw ingrediants, which
I have today purchased - no "tincture."

So, I think I'll have to make my own "extract."  Geoff e-mailed me
with some ideas about how to extract the essencial oils and stuff
from the spices, but I'm unclear about the particulars of this
proceedure.  So, here's the question:
  The bag of ingredients I have measures about 2 c., made up mostly
  of rasins.  there are also almonds (whole), whole cloves, whole
  cardamom seeds, 3 sticks of cinnamon, and dried orange peels (not
  orange zest - the grist is still on).  Geoff suggested steeping
  the ingredients in vodka (preferrably a high-proof vodka) for a
  few hours, then adding the extract (filtered through a coffee
  filter?) to the priming vessel just before botteling.  But, I'm
  always new at this, and I need more directions, like how much
  vodka to use?  Can I use grain alcohol?  Should I steep at a
  certain temperature?  Will I need to press the ingrediants after
  steeping to get the most I can through the filter?  And how much
  should I add at botteling?

I sincerely appreciate any and all information I can get on this
process of making extract.  I will post a summary later if there is
enough response.

Cheers!

John

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Date: Mon, 12 Oct 92 16:05:09 CDT
From: gjfix at utamat.uta.edu (George J Fix)
Subject: low and high gravity propagation

I received a lot of e-mail asking about the relative merits of
low gravity vs. high gravity wort for yeast propagation.

Several years ago the EBC did an exhaustive study comparing media
for yeast propagation. If the media contained carbohydrates it
was probably included in the study, literally everything from
exotic sugar solutions to tomato juice. They concluded that dilute
all malt wort was the best overall choice. In addition to the Crabtree
effect, they also found that elementary wort proteins (amino acids)
played a favorable role. This was something that I forgot to mention
in my last post. Dilute wort was favored over full strength wort
because this avoided the "sugar shock" at the start of the propagation.

Five years ago Dr. Hsu of Siebels recommended that I try full strength
hopped wort. He felt that sugar shock was overrated, and that the best
results were obtained by minimizing the change of environment in going
from propagators to fermenters. In particular, he wanted there to be a minimum
change in the osmotic pressure on yeast cell walls. If you purchase 
slants from Siebels you will also get an instruction sheet which has
a detailed description of his procedure. This is a change for them,
because they use to recommend dilute wort.

To make a long story short, I tried Dr. Hsu's procedure and found that
for 95% of the strains tested (including 100% of those available from
Siebel) he was right. I have since modified his procedure with
respect to volume increases, but invariably everyone locks on to a
detailed procedure that works best for them.

My article on yeast propagation appeared in Vol.7 not Vol.6 of
Brewery Operations. The one in Vol.6 is on an entirely different subject
( Thanks Bill!).

George Fix


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Date: Mon, 12 Oct 92 17:41:01 EDT
From: garti at mrg.xyplex.com (Mark Garti mrgarti at xyplex.com)
Subject: pitching temp

what is the pitching temp range for liquid ale yeasts?
for liquid lager yeasts?
Mark    mrgarti at xyplex.com

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Date: Mon, 12 Oct 92 17:24 CDT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Sweetening

Michael Blair asks about sweetening a too-dry rhubarb wine (sorry
so late -- I've been away):
>I have a rhubarb wine which is ready to be bottled.  The recipe I
>used has left me with a liquid which is in desperate need of
>sweetening.  Anybody have any successful sweeteners besides
>granulated sugar?  Thankx,

When you say granulated sugar, I assume that you mean table sugar,
or sucrose.  Sucrose is fermentable and unless you pasteurize the
wine or beer, the sweetness you require will ferment away (and perhaps
create glass grenades too).  I have just recently, successfully brewed
a sweet raspberry-cherry ale.  I used 8 ounces (net weight) of Lactose
(Milk Sugar) in a 15 gallon batch, along with a pound of light-colored
crystal malt (which also adds unfermentable sugars and thus sweetness).
Note that LACTOSE IS FERMENTABLE BY LACTOBACILLUS (and perhaps Pediococcus
also), so you better be pretty sure that you don't have a bacterial infection!

Al.

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Date: Mon, 12 Oct 92 18:05 CDT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Re: haze

Mark writes (again, sorry for the delay):
>i just tried two brews that had the same problem.
>i brewed both with malted barley that i roasted
>and crushed with a rolling pin.  both beers had
>excessive haze.  the haze settled quite a bit after
>a week and a half in the fridge (after 2.5 weeks
>aging).  i put the adjuncts in the cold water and
>left them in until boil (possibly slightly longer
>in the beer that had the worst haze).

What you've got is partly chill haze, and partly starch haze.
Whenever you use malted barley in your beers you need to
mash them -- otherwise the starches that you extracted from
the malt will not get converted to sugars.  When you boiled the
grains, you extracted a bunch of tannins which later reacted with
proteins in your beer to create chill haze.  Crystal malts
are in effect "mashed in the husk" so you don't have to mash
them and I personally don't mash Black Patent Malt, Roasted
Barley or Chocolate Malt in my extract+specialty_grains batches .

>is the amount
>of haze directly proportional to the amount of time
>the adjuncts spent at temp's in excess of 170F?

Yes.  The more you boil the grains, the more tannins you will
extract and the more starch you will extract from the grains.

>Is
>there something else i was supposed to do with the
>adjuncts.

You should have mashed them.  An option to a complete mash
is to use Diastatic Malt Syrup (Edme makes on and so does
Munton & Fison) which still has active enzymes.  You definately
needed to get some enzymes from somewhere (some unroasted 2-row
or 6-row or from Diastatic Malt Syrup) because the roasting killed
the enzymes in your malt.

>what are the other reasons for removing
>the adjuncts before boil?

See above.

>what is the real cut off
>temp for them?

I stop at 168F, because my pot is stainless steel which is not
a good conductor of heat -- therefore there can be hot-spots
in the pot.  When my floating thermometer says 168F, I suspect
there are 175F spots at the bottom.

>both were extract brews but otherwise
>had nothing in common and were brewed in my usual
>manners.  Thanks.

Al.

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Date: Mon, 12 Oct 92 16:30:17 PDT
From: danforth at wattsbar.llnl.gov (Bill A. Danforth)
Subject: Brewpub in Long Beach, CA area


I will be attending the LISA conference in Long Beach next week.  What
brewing points of interest (brewpubs, bars that have lots of good beers, ...)
should I check out?

Thanks in advance,
Bill Danforth
danforth2 at llnl.gov

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Date: 12 Oct 92 11:22:00 -0700
From: SHERRILL_PAUL at Tandem.COM
Subject: Bottling session from hell  (a little long)

- ------------   REPLY ATTACHMENT   --------
SENT 10-12-92 FROM SHERRILL_PAUL  at CTS

Paul's bottling session from hell
(aka. How not to use raspberries when brewing)

Here is my near disaster from brewing.  After successfully brewing on
great raspberry batch by using the berries in the primary (see recipe
in Cat's Meow) I decided to made a psuedo Framboise follwoing Cher
Feinstein's recipe in the Cat's Meow.

The recipe calls for wheat extract then after primary introduce the berries
into the secondary as a puree.  After a rather quick primary I racked to
secondary and a few days later planned on adding 6 lbs of berries.  I used
frozen berries and used my  food processor to mush them up. This
worked OK. After carrying out the first pitcher full of berry puree I realized
that there was not enough head space left in my carboy for all the berries.
No problem, I racked the beer back into one of my plastic primaries add added
the berries to this.  Note that the bucket has a spigot at the bottom to
perform bottling. I'm thinking no problem a couple more days in secondary and
then bottle straight out of the bucket.  There was some residual
fermentation (probably do to the oxygen introduced from racking and the sugar
in the fruit).

I let it stand for about 5 days to make sure any fermentation will have ceased.
Then came bottling day.  Pulled the bucket out of the fermentation fridge.
Popped off the top and see a decent raspberry head.  Reasonably strong but
pleasent alcohol raspberry nose. Pour in priming sugar. Attach bottle filler
to spigot via 10 inch plastic hose. Commence bottling.

Problem 1: Slow bottling and the stuff in the hose looks like something out
of a raspberry slurpee machine.  Alright,the combination of yeast fall out
and raspberry particles at the bottom of the bucket are two thick to get
throuh my bottling wand (the old orange tip type).  Close spigot and try
the racking tube.  Problem 2: same as problem 1, the liquid is too thick.
Clean an extra bucket and rack to this bucket while straining the beer.
Sanitize sparging bag place in empty bucket and rack.  Now to strain just
pull the straining bag up.  Problem 3: after pulling the bag up through about
3 gallons it is completely clogged.  Hold bag up with one hand (muscle
building) while trying to stir in the bag with a small hard plastic tube.
After about 5 minutes I realize that this would take at least an hour. So
I go for the squeeze of the bag to leech out the liquid.  This is working
nicely as the liquid is forced out over the clogged portion.  About a gallon
left to strain, squeeze a little harder and POP. The seam at the bottom of the
bag pops about a one inch hole. Beer and clogging material spew into the bucket
and all over the garage floor.  I stop the flow and decide no more straining
is nessacary.

Onto bottling via racking tube and bottling wand. Problem 4: the bottling
is going too slow and the wand won't shut off when lifted. Culprit is
raspberry seeds stuck in the bottling wand.  Screw it. Pull off wand and use
the pinching of the tube method to finish bottling (Of course adding to the
now raspberry scented garage floor). Bottling finished.
The first bottle that was filled has about half particulate, half liquid. The
perfect bottle for those non-homebrew initited types.  Only took about 3 hours
to finish bottling this batch.

Last night (after being in the bottle for a week) I pop open a bottle and
beer sprays out all over the kitchen. The dog likes this, my daughters
homework does not like this, wife dosen't care cuz I'll be the one cleaning it.

Pour what is left on the bottle into my glass and this is a good beer although
rather cloudy.  Many of the bottles have a visible seperation between the beer
and where the particles are settling out. Looks like I'll have a good half inch
of crud on the bottom of each bottle. My wife in here wisdom says no problem
just buy a small strainer for pouring thru when dispensing.

My only question: Is the over carbonation due to the fact that the fruit is
fermenting in the bottle?  I added  the normal amount of priming sugar (about
1/2 cup).  The beer does not gush (as has happened when infected) it sprays
out uniformly upon opening.  Do I have a bunch of glass grenades? And should
I pop them open and let them re-ferment then re-bottle?

Lesson learned: Just use the raspberries whole, less mess and the beer still
leaches out all the raspberry flavor.

paul
sherrill_paul at tandem.com

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Date:        Mon, 12 Oct 92 19:55:10 EST
From: AAAF000 <AAAF%CATCC.BITNET at VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject: Brewpubs in Baltimore

Thanks to all who responded regarding Baltimore/Washington Brewpubs.
This past weekend I have also discovered a bar called Cafe Tatoo in
Baltimore. Although CT is not a brewpub it does carry a nice selection
of bottled beer and a small assortment of drafts. -RICK SMITH

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Date: Mon, 12 Oct 92 16:50:24 PDT
From: Darryl Richman <darrylri at microsoft.com>
Subject: Brews Bros. 2nd Annual RHB Competition

An AHA Sanctioned contest open to brewers in the Pacific North West 
(Alaska, Oregon, Washington, Idaho, Montana, and British Columbia).

Fee: $5/entry, 2 bottles per entry
Deadline:  November 11th.  (Hand carried entries will be accepted up to 
5pm, November 18th.)  Send to
Brother Rob Nelson, Registrar
c/o The Dotson Institute
2310 130th Ave. NE
Bellevue, WA 98006

Brewers may enter one beer per category.  Bottles to be crown capped 
and 12-14oz, and free of all identifying marks or labels, caps inked black.

First and Second place in each category receive a gift certificate from 
a participating sponsor.  Best of show wins an engraved glass beer stein.

Scoring based on AHA 50 point system.  No beer scoring less than 25 
points will be eligible for an award in any category.

Categories:
ALES
A1	Pale Ale
A2	English & Scottish Bitters
A3	Porters & Stouts

WHEAT
W1	Berliner Weiss
W2	Bavarian Weizen
W3	Weizenbock
W4	American Wheat Beer

LAGERS
L1	Pilsners
L2	Vienna/Amber/Oktoberfest
L3	Bock

SPECIALTY
S1	Rauch, Belgian, Fruit, Herb, Animal, Vegetable, Mineral, etc.

CIDERS
C1	Dry, Sweet/Sparkling, Still

For more information, contact:

Brother Rob Nelson
POB 1016
Duvall, WA 98019-1016
eves (206) 788-0271
days (206) 882-6030
fax (206) 869-4887
CompuServe 70206,1316

		--Darryl Richman


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Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 00:41:57 -0600
From: walter at lamar.ColoState.EDU (Brewing Chemist Walter)
Subject: Sake


Howdy Brewers,

	Although only vaguely homebrewish in nature, I thought this 
question was best asked of the HBD, as I consider us "experts" on the
quality of alcoholic beverages.

	Anyway, I am interested in trying some sake, I think.  I 
have heard both good and bad things about it, so figured I should
get a brand name recommendation before buying any.  Any comments?

I suppose since this really isn't homebrewing that personal
email is the way to go.

Thanks,

Brian J Walter            |Science, like nature, must also be tamed|  Relax,
Chemistry Graduate Student|with a view towards its preservation.   |Don't Worry
Colorado State University |Given the same state of integrity, it   |  Have A
walter at lamar.colostate.edu|will surely serve us well. -N. Peart    | Homebrew!

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #989, 10/13/92