FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  A couple of proposed experiments (Conn Copas)
  Re: chill concentrated wort (Jim Grady)
  Oxidation Problems ("Moore, Brian")
  Lambic Beers and U.S. Microbreweries (Spencer.W.Thomas)
  AHA Styles and Reality (Tom Leith MIR/ERL 362-6965)
  IMPERIAL STOUT (MATTHEW.BOHNE)
  Low alcohol/near beer ("Bill Kitch")
  Really Cool Cooling ("Moore, Brian")
  Beer Bennies/Pyramid Yeast? (John Brooks)
  Re: Victorian Ales (Paul deArmond)
  Re: Krush-Off extract (Bill Slack)
  Request for homebrew suppliers (Robert Jordan)
  malt mills (Tony Babinec 312 329-3570)
  homebrew (oldforg4)
  Is mashing-out necessary? (chris campanelli)
  Crushoff/Extraction Rate (Jack Schmidling)
  specialty items question (Kip Damrow)
  cleaning tips repost (Chris Pencis)
  Lambic beers & U.S. Microbreweries (msharp)
  dry hopping bitterness / Holiday Ale (F. G. Patterson Jr.)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Oct 93 10:35:34 BST
From: Conn Copas <C.V.Copas at lut.ac.uk>
Subject: A couple of proposed experiments

Here's some easy experiments for some intrepid soul to perform in order to sort
out two current controversies:

On the 'dry hopping causing bitterness' thing, I occasionally make test brews
that involve pouring boiling water onto a mixture of extract and pellets in a
1L, pre-heated glass bottle. This mix is then fermented, naturally enough with
the hops left in, and definitely turns out bitter. The hot wort spends about 10
mins cooling down from something like 85C to 60C, which theoretically should
cause little isomerisation. Experiment - do the same, but filter the hops out
prior to fermentation, and note the difference.

Experiment 2:

> The perfect grist for mashing would be molecule sized particles of malt from
> which all the husk has been removed.  It would wet perfectly, disolve
> instantly and produce 100% yield of crystal clear wort.

Get hold of some wheat malt (which is husk-free) and pulverise it to flour. Use
this exclusively in the mash, and note its suitability.

- -- 
Conn V Copas
Loughborough University of Technology          tel : +44 (0)509 222689
Computer-Human Interaction Research Centre     fax : +44 (0)509 610815      
Leicestershire  LE11 3TU              e-mail - (Janet):C.V.Copas at uk.ac.lut   
G Britain                                      (Internet):C.V.Copas at lut.ac.uk


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Date: Thu, 7 Oct 93 8:13:38 EDT
From: Jim Grady <grady at hpangrt.an.hp.com>
Subject: Re: chill concentrated wort

Sorry to take so long to get back to this but in HBD #1239 (Monday's
issue) John Pavao asks whether it is worthwhile to chill concentrated
wort before diluting it with a carboy of 3.5 gal of cold water.

I brewed for a couple of years this way before going to full batch boils
and I personally liked it.  For me it took out the worry of oxidation
and the task of getting the cold water cold enough that I would be sure
that the mixture would be at yeast pitching temps. In addition,
transferring chilled wort is a great opportunity to aerate the wort
rather than worry about oxidation.

I made an immersion chiller from 50' of copper tubing and some siphon
tubing and some random fittings all for about $30.  I used 50' because
some of the plans I had seen called for 40' and 50' was cheaper than
40'.  Furthermore, I had no idea what else I would use the extra 10' for
and figured it could only help.  I know that there have been great
debates on the optimal length and I have reached no conclusion myself.

- --
Jim Grady              |"Root beer burps don't have to be said 'Excuse me'."
grady at hp-mpg.an.hp.com |                Robert Grady, age 4.75

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Date: Thu, 07 Oct 93 07:48:00 PDT
From: "Moore, Brian" <Moorebw at hvsmtp1.mdc.com>
Subject: Oxidation Problems


Hello all,

I recently entered my first Homebrew competition (the Mid-South Fair in 
Memphis, TN). I entered an extract based dry stout. It finished second with 
a score of 32. The main problem that the judges noted was that it had an 
oxidized aroma. I'm trying to figure out where this oxidation came from. 
Since this was an extract brew we did nothing I can think of which would 
introduce HSA. Our brewing procedure was as follows:

1. Put 8 gallon pot on burner, fill with about 6 gallons of water.
2. Started burner and add specialty grains (in grain bag).
3. Remove grain bag when the water is at about 180 or 190 F.
4. When water boils, add the extract (Briess liquid) and the hops.
5. Boil for 45-60 minutes. Insert immersion chiller for the last 5 minutes.
6. Cool to about 75-80 F.
7. Rack the cool wort into the carboy.
8. Shake the **** out of it to aerate it.
9. Pitch the yeast.
10. After about a week, rack it to the secondary (being careful not to 
splash).
11. For bottling, rack it to a bottling bucket, add priming sugar and 
bottle.

Our bottle filler is one of those clear plastic tubes with the spring loaded 
white thingy on the end (another version of the clear tube with the spring 
loaded orange thingy on the end, I guess). This thing does cause the beer to 
foam a little on it's way into the bottle.

My questions are these:

1. Is my bottle filler the culprit in my oxidation problems? If so, is there 
something better out there?

2. Has anyone out there ever used those oxygen absorbing bottle caps?

3. Is it possible that some extract manufacturers have HSA problems in the 
manufacture of the extracts?

                         TIA,
                         Brian Moore
                         <moorebw at hvsmtp1.mdc.com>

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Date: Thu, 7 Oct 93 10:49:14 EDT
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: Lambic Beers and U.S. Microbreweries

Matthew Evans writes:
 > 1)  Is there any U.S. brewery producing a true lambic beer (besides the 
 > Cranberry Lambic from the Boston Brewing Co)?  If not, why not?  

No, because the only way to produce a true lambic beer is to do it in
the right part of Belgium.  The local microflora(fauna?) just aren't
right anywhere else in the world.  Now, Jackson mentions a few
breweries who have experimented with "spontaneously fermented" beers
in the Lambic chapters of _The Great Beers of Belgium_ and _The Beer
Companion_, but I don't at the moment recall if any are in the U.S.
One was in Britain.

 > 2)  I've read before that the various yeasts and bacteria needed for lambic 
 > beers are available in the US, but where is a good commercial source (or 
 > free source) of these microrganisms?

Yes, no, maybe.  The Brettanomyces cultures are available from G.W.
Kent, which is a wholesaler, so you have to get your local HB supplier
to order them.  Sheaf & Vine (email to Al Korzonas
(korz at iepubj.att.com)) also has some cultures (Brett and Pedio).
Nobody seems to have the appropriate Lactobacillus cultures, unless
you can get it from a fellower HBer.

For doing it yourself, the first thing you should do is to run out and
buy a copy of _Lambic_ from the Classic Beer Styles series.  If it's
not at your local HB store, pick up any issue of Zymurgy, you'll find
a publications catalog in the center.

 > 4)  Are there any good publications about microbreweries?  Particularly I'm 
 > interested in getting some start up information for an Entrepreneurial 
 > Business class at school.

Call the AAB (Association of Brewers).  They have a number of
publications directed at microbrewers (for a fee, of course).  Also
listed in the catalog in Zymurgy.

=S

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Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1993 09:55:37 -0500
From: trl at photos.wustl.edu (Tom Leith MIR/ERL 362-6965)
Subject: AHA Styles and Reality

I've recently gotten hold of the _Zymurgy_ Special Issue on Traditinal Beer
Styles, and I've got a couple of questions or comments or something. 8-)

I like to make a brown ale, patterned after _Pete's_.  I've made three 
batches, #2 being the most successful, so far as taste is concerned.  The 
grist was as follows:

	7#  DeWolf Ale     8L      56L
	1#  DeWolf Munich  3L       3L
	1#  CaraVienne     22L     22L
	1#  CaraMunich     72L     72L
	6oz Chocolate     498L    174L
                                  ----
                                  327L / 5.75 gallons = 56.9L

In a 5.75 gallon batch, the color is 57L.  Note that the Chocolate is about 
3.5% of the grist, and provides about half of the color.  The OG = 1060.  It 
seems to me that this brew was indeed a lot like _Pete's_.

The AHA style guideline says OG 1040 - 1055, and color 15 - 22 SRM.  My 
understanding is that SRM approximately equals Lovibond.  In the text 
describing the American Brown Ale style, it says that up to 5% of the grist 
can be Chocolate.  Well folks, if you do that, you'll blow the color every 
time.  Observe:

	10#  DeWolf Ale   8L    80L
	.1#  Chocolate  498L    50L (1%)
                             ------
                               130L / 5.75 gallons = 23L

That's as light as I can make it, there's no crystal, and its still too dark 
for the guidelines (OK, just barely, but I think the point is made).  I don't 
think this brew would be very much like any American Brown Ale I've ever 
tried.  If you use 5% Chocolate, you'll end up quite dark at 57L, but you'll 
still not have any crystal.  

In the back of the same special issue, there are recipies for the competition 
winners.  I made a rough calculation of the color the Brown Ale category 
winner came out, and I came up with 35L, too dark for the style guidelines.  
His OG was reported as 1062.  So, here we have a national competition 
*winner* falling well outside the guidelines.  What gives??  Are the AHA 
guidelines reliable?  And if you can win an AHA competition without coming 
particularly close to the guidelines, why have them in the first place?

Part of my reason for asking is that I might like to enter competitions 
myself, and I may also be interested in the AHA BJCP.  But observations like 
this make me wonder whether it would be worthwhile.  If the goal of the 
competition is to demonstrate brewing prowess, independent of whether the 
brew actually pleases anyone, well, then the style parameters make some 
sense.  But in that case, wou wouldn't even classify a beer into a category 
when its missed color, gravity, or IBUs specified for the category.  In other 
words, the competition coordinator looks at the stated parameters and says 
"this can't be considered Brown Ale, so it won't even be entered into 
competition." and the judges would never taste it (no matter how good it 
might be).  In an ideal world, the physical characteristics would actually be 
measured at the competition site, but I guess its hard to borrow an HPLC from 
the lab for the weekend 8-)  

If the point is to look for the beer that is most pleasing, then I think the 
distinctions are too fine, and the parameters too narrow.  If there's a third 
possibility, I'm not sure what it would be.  Anyway, what I'm getting at is 
the guidelines and the brew that won (in that category, that year) seem to be 
at odds.  And I'm sure that if I look, I'll find more examples.  Can we 
generate some discussion on this topic?  I think it'd be very helpful...

	t
=============================================================================
Tom Leith                           InterNet:   trl at wuerl.WUstl.EDU
4434 Dewey Ave.                   CompuServe:   70441,3536
St. Louis, Missouri  63116
                                                "Tho' I could not caution all
314/362-6965 - Office                            I still might warn a few:
314/362-6971 - Office Fax                        Don't lend your hand
314/481-2512 - Home + Infernal Machine           to raise no flag
                                                 atop no Ship of Fools"
=============================================================================
   




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Date: 6 Oct 93 16:35:15-0400
From: MATTHEW.BOHNE at sprint.sprint.com
Subject: IMPERIAL STOUT

DOES ANYONE HAVE A GOOD RECIPE FOR IMPERIAL STOUT ? I TRIED THE ONE IN THE
"BREWERS BIBLE" BUT IT turned out rather bitter... Any suggestions? I would
love to brew some Moss Stout (brewed in Seattle) any ideas? 

Carboy Dieum (G)

Matthew



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Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1993 10:15:56 -0600 (CST)
From: "Bill Kitch" <kitchwa at bongo.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: Low alcohol/near beer

Does anyone have a procedure for producing low or no alcohol
carbonated malt beverages?

My intial thought is to:
 1) brew in the normal fashion
 2) heat to evaporate the alcohol
 3) cool
 4) add priming sugar and fresh yeast
 5) bottle

Is this reasonable?  Has anyone tried this?  Did it work?

Sante' WAK

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Date: Thu, 07 Oct 93 10:26:00 PDT
From: "Moore, Brian" <Moorebw at hvsmtp1.mdc.com>
Subject: Really Cool Cooling


Well here goes,

I've been reading the cooling debate in the previous few HBD's with much 
interest. Everyone seems to be on the wort chiller path. Has anyone ever 
tried just dropping a chunk (golf-ball sized maybe?) of dry ice into their 
hot wort? I've never tried it but have often contemplated it. There seems to 
be a veritable plethora of benefits:

1. Quick cooling
2. Cheap
3. All natural CO2 (?)
4. If it works anything like dry ice does in punch, maybe all of the break 
material would freeze into a big ball around the dry ice and you could just 
lift it out.

Obviously you would want to aerate the wort with an airstone or something to 
get oxygen back in for the yeast. Is commercial dry ice pure CO2 or are 
there other nasties in there? On the surface, this seems to be a neat idea 
so please don't flame me too badly. I'd like to try this but I'm afraid to 
ruin a batch of beer. Maybe if somebody else already has, they could stop 
me.

                    Thanks,
                         Brian Moore

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Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1993 07:56:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Brooks <jbrooks at u.washington.edu>
Subject: Beer Bennies/Pyramid Yeast?

The following was reported in the Seattle Times, entitled "Beer Bennies":

"Oh, to work for Hale's Ales.  The company, with breweries in Kirkland and
Spokane, is preparing to take all its employees on three week "education
tours" of European suds makers.
   This Mother of All Bennies marks the firm's 10th anniversary.  Mike
Hale produced his first ale in Colville, and he now markets 13 draft ales
throughout Washington. 
   The firm will take two groups of seven employees on tours of English,
Belgian and German breweries.  One stop: Gales Ales in Horndean, England,
where Hale worked in 1982 before starting his business.
   Of course, the trip coincides with Munich's Oktoberfest.  Hale dryly
notes in a press release that the tours `won't be work.'"

By the way, Hale's makes excellent products, especially their rich, biting
"Moss Bay Extra."  They also have a great T-shirt with their mallard duck
logo.
***********************************

On another Northwest related subject, Pyramid Ales of Kalama, Washington,
perhaps best known for its "Wheaten (tm) Ale," makes a large number of
other superior beers including a double-yeasted Hefeweisen.  One of my
favorites is their "Wheaten Bock Ale" (O.G. 1.061) which is made with five
malted grains and Mt. Hood Hops.  I am going to try a clone and through
some rather involved reconnaissance have managed to come up with a close
approximation of the grain mix.  

My missing link is the yeast.  Pyramid claims to use the same
"proprietary" ale yeast on all of their brews (the Hefeweisen is filtered
before undergoing a secondary fermentation with a Danish lager yeast,
which settles in the bottle).  My initial impulse was to try Wyeast
chico/american (1056) or german alt (1007).

I recall reading "net lore" that Sierra Nevada probably got their yeast
from Anchor, that Pete's probably got their yeast from Sierra Nevada, etc. 
Does anyone know about the source of the Pyramid strain or have an
educated guess as to a suitable substitute?  Replies by private e-mail or
postings both OK. 

John Brooks
University of Washington
(206) 543-9149

P.S. - I have an acquaintance who works for a door and window distributor
called Reeb Distributing, Inc.  Their motto (which is on his business card
and their logo jackets) is: "REEB - we're BEER spelled backwards."

******************************************************************



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Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1993 08:12:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul deArmond <paulf at henson.cc.wwu.edu>
Subject: Re: Victorian Ales

Victorian Ales flourished during the last century, rising to prominence in
the 1830's and dying off in 1900, when they were replaced by the Edwardian
Ales (a much rowdyier and less inhibited ale.) The Victorian Ales
maintained a world-wide Empire.  Indeed, it was said that the sun never
set on a Victorian Ale.  Two of the largest Imperial colonies, India and
Canada, developed their own ales.  Several other areas under the influence
of Victorian Ales were quite important to trade, but never established
their own brewing recognition.  Two of the most notable brewing failures
were Crimean Ale (very bitter and with an indecisive finish, but notable
for the Charge of the Light Beergade, of which it was said, "It's
magnificent, but it's not beer." ) and the First and Second Afghan Brews
(of which the first was a complete disaster.)

One of the notable and lasting characteristics of the Victorian Ales was
their curious moral double-standard.  While being very ostentatious in
church-going, psalm-singing, founding societies for the reformation of
fallen brews, establishing the Boy Stouts, and declaiming on the "Pale
Ale's Burden", the Victorian Ales were not above mistreating natives
(leading in India to the Carboy Rebellion), visiting child brothels or
being whipped to a frothy head with birches.

The origianl Victorian Ale was blended with the lesser known Albertian
Ale, which was of German origin.  One of the results of this marriage was
the Edwardian Ale mentioned above.  The Albertian Ales never really caught
on, but their influence may be seen in the current British Lagers.

for more information on the Victorian Ales, refer to the _Flashman_ books
by George MacDonald Frasier....




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Date: Thu, 7 Oct 93 11:37:01 EDT
From: wslack.UUCP!wrs at mv.MV.COM (Bill Slack)
Subject: Re: Krush-Off extract

Jim Busch asks about the extract efficiency from the various mills at the
Krush-Off:

Unfortunately, the crushes were not individually mashed. About 16 pounds of
the Krush-Off residue was mashed in one batch with 2# crystal and 1# Cra-Pils
and after a 75 minute infusion at 154F, a fifteen minute mashout and a normal
sparge, it yielded an eleven gallon wort of 1.048 starting gravity. So I
guess you could figure the_average_ extract efficiency.   ;-)

Doing a club brew-in from the contest remains was as much fun as the contest
itself. We made three batches using Young's ale yeast, a Weihenstephan Alt
yeast and some of the new, improved Red Star (one gallon test batch).
Haven't tasted them yet.

Bill
__
wrs at gozer.mv.com (Bill Slack)
    

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Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1993 12:19:05 -0500 (CDT)
From: Robert Jordan <JORDAN at ANLBEM.BIM.ANL.GOV>
Subject: Request for homebrew suppliers



I've been reading the homebrew digest for several months now, and have been
gathering as much information on homebrewing as I can.  So I'm ready to take
the plunge as it were and get started.  However, I'm having trouble finding
a good list of mail-order homebrew suppliers.  I would appreciate anyone
sending me the address and/or number of the supply places they use.

Private replies are fine.

Thanks in advance--

Robert Jordan
jordan at anlbem.bim.anl.gov



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Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1993 13:14:33 -0500 (CDT)
From: tony at spss.com (Tony Babinec 312 329-3570)
Subject: malt mills

Thanks to the Boston homebrewers for their work.  With all respect,
for those doing comparisons, I suggest evaluating the crush blind
and using a series of screens.  If you don't have the screens, it
makes for a good club project.

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Date: Thu, 7 Oct 93 14:25:37 -0400
From: oldforg4 at nysernet.ORG
Subject: homebrew

 To whomever is listening:

        Please send me any info. you can about homebrew and or homebrewDigest.
        Just found you while surfing and am very interested.  Any help you
could    
        give would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks.

                                Ken D.
                                oldforg4 at nysernet.org


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Date: Thu, 7 Oct 93 12:46 CDT
From: akcs.chrisc at vpnet.chi.il.us (chris campanelli)
Subject: Is mashing-out necessary?

>  Subject: Mash out necessary?
>
>  Now, Miller (TCBoHB) is adamant that mash out is absolutely
>  necessary.  Others are less certain.  Hey, it's going to be
>  boiling in a few minutes anyway.  What are the opinions from HBD
>  land?
>
>  Domenick Venezia
>
 
 
YES!  ROO-ROO-ROO.  Stand back!  Make Way!  Spread out!  Free-
thinker comin' through here!
 
I hereby nominate Mr. Domenick Venezia to be considered for
acceptance into the Brotherhood Of Question Authority Types.  It's
heartening to see someone question The Word.
 
It is my personal opinion that there are WAY too many homebrewing
books, written by fornicating self-proclaimed experts, and not
enough . . . oh never mind.  Suffice to say I'm one homebrewer who
has yet to be convinced that mashing-out is necessary.  In fact, I
think that mash-outs are an unnecessary step.
 
Oh sure, I here the sniveling arguments of the imprisoned.  They
usually fall into one of two categories:  "You have to stop enzyme
activity" -or- "it allows you to obtain consistent results".
 
Oh PUH-leez.  If you skip mash-out, how much extra starch
conversion actually takes place while you sparge?  Is it
noticeable?  And if this additional conversion IS noticeable then
wouldn't you welcome the extra extract?  Consistent results?  Huh? 
Just how does mashing-out produce consistent results.
 
Go ahead and throw stones.  Me and Dom think the Emperor's new
clothes suck.  We're standing-up and farting in the general
direction of homebrewing dogma.  Well, at least I am.  Dom?
 
 
chris campanelli

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Date: Thu, 7 Oct 93 13:46 CDT
From: arf at genesis.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Crushoff/Extraction Rate

 
 More on bodymen......
 
 Jim Bush suggests that it would be nice to know the extraction rates of the 
 various test brews and I suggest that it may be nice but not terribly useful 
 unless they were conducted under controlled conditions.
 
 He also points out that his rate of extracton went down when he switched from 
 commercially milled grain to a Corona and back up again when he started using 
 a MM.
 
 That warms the cockles of my heart but I have long felt that extraction rate 
 has far more to do with the equipment and process following milling then with 
 the milling itself.
 
 I am in the midst of running controlled experiments to once again test 
 extraction efficiency as a function of the grist.  It has always been my 
 opinion that a properly designed mill with fixed roller spacing will provide 
 the same extract efficiency as an adjustable one set up to produce an 
 industry standard type of grist.  I offer an adjustable mill as an option 
 because people think they need it.  I don't doubt that, in large commercial 
 batches, with the equipment they are stuck with using, that grist will have 
 an effect on yield but on small batches the difference falls within the 
 measurement error.
 
 I run these tests on my one gallon pilot system and when using one lb of 
 malt, the gravity for one gallon reads directly in pts/lb/gal.
 
 The three tests just concluded, used l lb of Belgian Pils malt and the 
 following mash schedule:
 
         doughin  2000 ml water at 110F for 15 minutes
 
         mash at 155F for 45 min
 
         mashout at 170F for 10 min
 
         sparge to one gallon with 180F water
 
 The first two tests were on a fixed mill and an adjustable, set to provide 
 industry standard grist.
 
 The results were within the measurement error.  The fixed mill sample read
 1.031 and the adjustable may have been 1 point higher but on a hydrometer 
 with a resolution of 2 points per division, I would call it a draw.
 
 The next test was inspired by Jim's comments on the Corona and I ran a test 
 on the grist from my Corona.  However, ignoring all the wisdom of the Corona 
 fans, I set the mill to produce flour.  The rotating plate pressed against 
 the fixed plate hard enough to require considerable force to turn with no 
 grain in the mill.  It required a great deal of effort to crank with grain in 
 it and I am glad I only had to do one pound.  The grist looked like coarse 
 flour with some recognizable husk material but it was just random slivers.
 
 I ran the sample through the same process as above and got exactly the same 
 results. 31 pts/lb/gal.  This did not surprise me but I had to do it to prove 
 the point to the skeptical.  What did surprise me, was the fact that, of the 
 three jugs of wort produced, the Corona produced the most transparent.  The 
 very fine husk material, did indeed to a better job of filtering.
 
 So, whence the bogyman?
 
 It is my contention that the bogyman is in the mash/lauter tun and not the 
 grain mill.  Fortunately, I also sell the mash/lauter tun that makes all this 
 possible.
 
 But back to mills, buy the one that turns you on, forget the "crush-offs" and 
 give some serious thought to pushing beyond the traditional plastic buckets 
 and picnic coolers.
 
 js
 
 
 

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Date: Thu, 7 Oct 93 11:29:09 PDT
From: kdamrow at Thomas.COM (Kip Damrow)
Subject: specialty items question

Hi there,
Does anyone know of any catalogs for specialy items such as:
glassware, unique bottles, microbrewery stuff, brewery related clothing.
(BTW, I'm not looking for brewing supplies) 

Thanks,
Kip


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Date: Thu, 7 Oct 93 15:40:47 CDT
From: chips at coleslaw.me.utexas.edu (Chris Pencis)
Subject: cleaning tips repost

Just a quick note relating responses to my cleaning tips question, here
are a few ideas which may help some of you make your brewing (cleaning)
process a little more painless (note, these are ideas used by those who
submitted them, not just crazy ramblings)
 - one idea: use plastic buckets for primary and rack off the trub into a
carboy for the secondary - this leaves most of the gunk in an easy to
reach place.
 -use an immersible pump to drive sanitizing solution into bottles with a
hose, use same pump out of water to drive air in...use low concentration
iodaphor which need not be rinsed
 -put clean bottles in dishwasher for *sterilization*, use a little
bleach and heat drying (I assume rinsing in the dishwasher will get rid
of the bleach), Also, open dishwasher and bottle on the door, all
spillage goes in the washer (note: this is not to remove labels etc.)
 -one reply suggested the popular spray bottle washers available, or the
construction of a homemade carboy washer from a plugged up section of
garden hose with holes punched in the end near the plug (use bolt as plug)
 - when draining bottles and carboys, turn the container over and give a
little clockwise twirl and the water will drain out in a vortex,
allowing air in and giving a faster drain (assumes northern hemisphere :))

Thanks to Jack, Drew, Norm, and Chris for their responses, any others
who wish to add their $.02 are greatly encouraged to do so to the
address below.
					Chris
======================================================================
|Chris Pencis 				chips at coleslaw.me.utexas.edu |
|University of Texas at Austin		Robotics Research Group	     |
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Date: Thu, 7 Oct 93 14:09:02 PDT
From: msharp at Synopsys.COM
Subject: Lambic beers & U.S. Microbreweries


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Matthew Evans <matt at cadif.cornell.edu> writes:
> Subject: Lambic Beers and U.S. Microbreweries
> 
> I've got a couple questions, hopefully someone out there knows the answer 
> to these questions:
Content-Length: 3703

In general, the best place for lambic questions is the lambic digest.
Subscription requests can be sent to:
	lambic-request@ longs.lance.colostate.edu

> 1)  Is there any U.S. brewery producing a true lambic beer (besides the 
> Cranberry Lambic from the Boston Brewing Co)? 

To the best of my knowledge no U.S. brewery is producing anything
close to a traditional lambic.

I have just started to work with a very well known/respected pub brewer
on making a pseudo-lambic as a specialty beer.  Don't expect to see it
anytime soon.  Also, don't bother asking me who 'cause I'm not going to
say until he announces the batch publicly.

> Why not?
Assuming for a minute that you mean a pseudo-lambic (real lambics can
only be made just outside of Belgium due to the necessary wild fermentation),
the first reasons that come to mind are:
	o lambics are made using wild yeasts and bacterias that
	  will most likely cause endless problems with 'regular'
	  batches
	o lambics must be aged for considerably long periods of time
	  resulting in high cost and low throughput
	o most pub-goers are content to drink whatever piss flows out
	  of the tap as it is (though there are some _very_ good pubs
	  there are a few in my geographic area that amaze me as far as their
	  ability to stay in business for so long with such sh*t products)
	  so why waste time & money on an expensive and difficult style
	  when you can cut corners, and make sh*t and money at the same
	  time?   (no, I'm not naming names, but I bet some can guess)
	o nobody really knows how to make a lambic outside of Brussels.
	  everything done by the readership of the lambic digest is just
	  experimentation and has hardly scratched the surface of the
	  knowledge necessary to brew such a beer commercially with
	  any guarantee of success and repeatability.
	o lambics require (traditionally) cooperage & thats not cheap
	o lots of other issues I'll just let pass so this isn't a whole
	  digest in itself.
 
> 2)  I've read before that the various yeasts and bacteria needed for lambic 
> beers are available in the US, but where is a good commercial source (or 
> free source) of these microrganisms?
Cultures are easiest to find by special order from G.W.Kent through your
local retailer.  You must be patient when ordering, there are occationally
cycles [like now] when the cultures are backordered.
 
> 3)  Has anyone tried making a homebrewed lambic in small batches.  If you 
> have I would really like to talk to you about the process, as Kriek Lambic is 
> my favorite beer and I would like to duplicate the sour bite found only in 
> lambic beers.
See the comment on the lambic digest above, "Lambic" by J-X Guinard
(Classic Beer Styles #3), and the paper Martin Lodahl & I wrote for
Beer+Brewing for the Miwaukee Conference (sorry, don't remember the
volume #).
 
> 4)  Are there any good publications about microbreweries?  Particularly I'm 
> interested in getting some start up information for an Entrepreneurial 
> Business class at school.
> 
> 5)  Finally, in this long list of questions, does anyone have the number for
> the Celis brewery in Texas that makes Belgian style beers?
These two have me confused...  Are you trying to open a lambic pub/micro
brewery?
If so we should talk off line 'cause you need a reality check with respect to
markets and how quickly you'll be out of business.  (yes, I know that sounds
harsh, but better to hear it now than find out later)

If you're really just confused about lambics vs. Belgian Wits (Celis) than
you should get onto the lambic mailing list because we're having a discussion
about Belgian Wits right now.

	--Mike (your friendly lambic digest coordinator/founder)



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Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1993 00:05:27 -0400
From: patterso at mason1.gmu.edu (F. G. Patterson Jr.)
Subject: dry hopping bitterness / Holiday Ale

Kelly Jones <k-jones at ee.utah.edu> writes:
>
>Recently, I tried my first dry hop, ... and found a very pronounced excess
>bitterness.  I compared this to the other half of the batch, which had
>not been dry hopped, and which did not have this bitterness.  So, the
>bitterness was a result of the dryhopping.
>
>Questions:  
>Is this simply a temporary bitterness that will soon mellow?  Or can
>dry hopping really add noticeable bitterness?  Did I over dryhop?
>How many IBU's can/should dry hops introduce?

I read that your batch mellowed (lost  bitterness) in 8 days.  My batch
did not.  I dry hopped a batch of pale ale with Hallertau hops (actually
I added the hops immediately at the end of the boil after turning off
the fire).  The result is the first batch of beer in 15 years of brewing
that is so bad that I am actually pouring it down the drain.  (I should
save the drain and pour it directly into the sewer.)  It is severely
bitter and, frankly, the aroma is not all that great.  The hops were
allowed  to remain in the wort for 7 days.


BRUCE at ARVAX.Syntex.Com writes:
>Subject:  Christmas Ale Recipies?
>
>Greetings!
>
>Looks like it's about time to start those Christmas Ales ....
>My point is, I'm looking for some Cristmas Ale recipies ....

Don't overlook the Cat's Meow recipes, especially the one that
I have copied below.  I substituted 1 oz of Hallertau Hops for
the extra hops in the recipe; also I added an ADDITIONAL 1 teaspoon
of GROUND Cinnamon, and I used only 3 cloves in all.  This recipe
turned out to be superb!  I made it 4 weeks ago for Thanksgiving, and 
it is half gone already.  Note that it makes only 4-5 six-packs of
ale.

>                             Quick & Easy Spiced Brown Ale
>
>       Source:   Jeff Benjamin (benji at hpfcbug.fc.hp.com)
>                 Issue #985, 10/7/92
>
>       Ingredients:
>
>                 MountMellick Brown Ale Kit
>                 3-4 whole cloves
>                 3 whole cinnamon sticks
>                 1/4 teaspoon, nutmeg
>                 4 oranges
>                 1/8 cup, fresh Hallertau hops (leaf)
>
>       Procedure:
>
>       Simmer spices, hops,  and zest of  1 orange in  1 quart water  for 30-45
>       minutes. Make  brown  ale  according to  3.6  gallon  recipe. Add  spice
>       mixture (do  not  strain)  and zest  of  other  three oranges  to  wort.
>       Ferment, strain, and bottle according to kit instructions.
>
>       Comments:
>
>       Since everyone is gearing up  to make Xmas brews  (including me), here's
>       an easy recipe that turns out extremely good.  I'm normally an all-grain
>       brewer, but it's easier  to make large  quantities of extract  brews for
>       parties and things, and the spices tend to cover up  some of the extract
>       qualities. Of course, you  could use the  same spicing technique  for an
>       all-grain batch, too.
>
>       Remember to go  easy on the  spices. The flaw  with a lot  of commercial
>       Xmas brews is that  the spices overwhelm the  flavor of the  beer rather
>       than complement it.
>
>       The flavors balance very  nicely after only a  short aging time,  but it
>       gets better after a couple of months. An excellent holiday beer.

PAT PATTERSON
Fairfax, Virginia

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1243, 10/08/93