---

   FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
        Shawn Steele, Digest Janitor
        Thanks to Rob Gardner for making the digest happen!

Contents:
  HBD Problem ((Shawn Steele))
  Stout (Larry Jones)
  Backpacks  at  the GABF? ("Robert Waddell")
  re:5 liter minikegs (Eric White)
  keeping yeasts (Jorge Blasig - IQ)
  Piss Yeller ((biohazrd))
  Sam Smiths Oatmeal Stout (Aaron Sepanski)
  Homebrew competion (Bob Wilcox)
  Brewpubs in Hudson River Valley (edyaz at epix.net)
  Subject: alternatives to keg refrigerator ("Bridges, Scott")
  American Oak, ("David R. Burley")
  Grassy taste/aroma in hops (Miguel de Salas)

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OTHER HOMEBREW INFORMATION
  http://www.aob.org/aob - The AHA's web site.
  http://alpha.rollanet.org - "The Brewery" and the Cat's Meow Archives.
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----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: shawn at aob.org (Shawn Steele)
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 20:24:14 -0600
Subject: HBD Problem

Sorry about the problem with the HBD.  Our e-mail system died while I 
was on vacation.  Unfortunatly the list was truncated, so I went back 
to an older version of the list.  If you were resubscribed and you 
didn't want to be, please follow the unsubscribe instructions. 

Due to the volume of e-mail I have received, I have not been able to
respond individually.  FYI:  If you think you may have been unsubscribed,
you can always try subscribing, that fixes 99% of the "I'm not getting
the HBD problems."

Some of you have missed some issues of the HBD.  To get back issues, 
send e-mail to homebrew-digest-request@ aob.org and say: 
 
get n2133 
get n2132 
get n2131 
get n2130 
end 
 
(Of course you can replace the numeral part with the number of the 
digest you desire.) 
 
Everyone who was resubscribed to the mailing list should receive a "You 
have joined" message.  This is not a mistake and you can ignore it. 
Some recent subscribers were accidently dropped and I was not able to 
add them.  If you are reading this by some other meens and would like 
to (re)join the HBD, send e-mail to homebrew-digest-request@ aob.org and 
say: 
 
subscribe 
end 
 
- - shawn 
Digest Janitor 

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From: Larry Jones
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 15:11:28 -0600
Subject: Stout

I have been trying for about three and half years to brew a dry stout 
that resembles the flavor of Beamish, Murphey's, or Guinness. They all 
three have that very bitter dry roastd barley flavor. Many American 
Micobrewed stouts have aftertastes of too much hops, too much malt, too 
sweet etc. I realize that nitrogenated heads change the flavor in ales 
but I have noticed that even in the Guinness and Beamish carbonated 
bottle versions that there is a distinctively dryer flavor. In all my 
attempts to homebrew such a stout I have usually been plagued by an 
aftertaste that is too malty or vanilla like. Here is what I have tried 
different after much advice to rememdy it still no success. 
 
I have tried both dry yeast and the Wyeast 1084. I have used various 
different stout kits and/or dark syrup malts. I have tried extra hopping 
and less. with aromatic hops and without. I have brewed at lower 
temperartures 65-70 degress too avoid ester fruit excessiveness. Longer 
and shorter fermentation periods watching and ignoring O.G and T.G. 
readings. In the various stout kits I have used Mount Mellick, 
Laagerland, Munton and Fisson, Black Rock. Rock Miner, Edme, Glenbrew, 
and John Bull hopped and unhopped extract. Still despite all this I get a 
brew that when it is put in the secondary fermenter taste like a good 
flat guinness or Beamish and especially right before bottling or piggy 
kegging but after bottling there is that sweet or malty aftertaste. I am 
careful about sanitation and have carbonated with too much, just right 
and too little corn sugar. What can I do to avoid the malty vanilla 
flavor? Some suggestions have been use only light extracts and get the 
dark color and roast flaovr from the specialty grains (I generally use 
about a pound of roast barely to a five gallon batch). The use of the 
light extract some say may cut down on residual nonfermetable sugars and 
other flavors left by dark extracts (how could a sugar not ferment with 
good yeast?) Does anyone have a suggestion on how to make a full extract 
brew that is free of the malty vanilla aftertaste? I know Guinnes uses 3% 
sour additive but that doesn't explain Beamish or murphey's. Has anyone 
noticed this flaovr problem with their stoput brewing? please either post 
a reply or better yet E-mail with the solution. I only wish to brew a 
stout or porter and one that is free of this aftertaste. I have done very 
little brewing in the last year and may well stop as long as I keep 
buying Guinness because I can't get close to it at homebrewing. Help 
please. 
 
Larry Jones 
Ft. Smith, Arkansas 

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From: "Robert Waddell" <V024971 at Tape.StorTek.Com>
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 96 21:19:30 GMT
Subject: Backpacks  at  the GABF?

Collective: 
 
Please pardon my rantings, but is this a copy of a FAX that I just sent off 
to Marsha Schirmer, the GABF head honcho (FAX: 303-494-4146).  If anyone 
thinks that I am out of line, please reply via private E-Mail.  It may 
seem petty to some folks, but I feel very strongly about it.  This is one 
of the high points that I look forward to from year to year.  (Yeah, I 
may not have a life, but I got beer!)  #%^) 
 
**************************************************************************** 
 
>Marsha Schirmer 
>AOB 
>Boulder, CO 
>FAX 303-494-4146 
 
>Ms. Schirmer: 
 
>As a member in good standing of the American Homebrewers Association I am 
>compelled to contact you to express my extreme displeasure in one of your 
>rules stated in the recent literature I received concerning the Great 
>American Beer Festival.  The rule I am referring to is "No backpacks will 
>be allowed into Currigan Hall". 
 
>For the past several years I have spent over $200 at each festival just 
>for T-shirts alone.  I have collected many coasters from the various 
>booths and literature from each brewery represented.  I have taken books 
>in to have them autographed.  This was all accomplished through the use 
>of my backpack. 
 
>I can not picture myself trying to do this carrying around your little 
>"see through plastic bag" and still have any hands free to sample the 
>wares of the brewers of America! 
 
>Barry Fey has people at all entrances of his concerts to check bags, 
>blankets, and backpacks as part of his security force.  I was told by 
>one of your sycophants on the phone today that it would cost to much 
>money to have that kind of security at the GABF.  Hell, the entire 
>festival is being run by volunteers!  Get volunteer security people to 
>check that nobody is bringing in any guns, beer, or whatever! 
 
     (Barry Fey is a concert promoter in Denver, Colorado, USA) 
 
>I was told by the same person that "we" decided that it would be best 
>to implement this rule.  When she said "we" that included ME!  A paid 
>up member!  And I don't recall even being solicited for my input! 
 
>When she said that "we" could not afford that kind of security she didn't 
>realize the loss of income for the various vendors due to not being able 
>to carry their products and be able to sample beer at the same time. 
 
>As a member in good standing my position is to suspend this "anal retentive" 
>rule, at least for the members only tasting.  Why would any members try 
>to bring any contraband in or for that matter try to smuggle any beer out? 
>We've all got plenty of homebrew at home, and it's probably better than 
>anything being served!  I took second place in the "Capital District Open" 
>in the Belgian Strong Ale category last year...  I know mine is. 
 
>I know for a fact that I won't be doing ANY shopping in the festival 
>this year if I'm not allowed to bring my pack in, and I will personally 
>tell all of the vendors why, and who they can thank for it. 
 
>This festival is not Atlanta, it is not an international airline, it is 
>not the World Trade Center, it is not U. S. Marine barracks in a mideast 
>country, and I seriously doubt if any Third World country has any interest 
>at all in what we are doing to promote our hobby, craft, or just our taste 
>for quality brews and the paraphanalia that goes along with it.  I don't 
>think that any "Red Neck" malitia members would even dream of doing any 
>damage to what they probably hold very dear to their hearts. 
 
>YOU ARE HURTING THE VENDORS!  LOSE THIS RULE! 
 
>Yours in the Brewhouse, 
>Robert J. Waddell 
>V024971 at tape.stortek.com 
***************************************************************************** 
 
Following is the reply that I got from Sheri Winter, Marketing Director, 
that she "cc:" to Marcia Schirmer, Festival Director.  Marsha seems to be 
to elite to even answer her own mail. 
***************************************************************************** 
 
Dear Mr. Waddell: 
 
We have received your letter and regret that the Great American Beer Festival 
policy with regard to backpacks is so personally upsetting for you. 
 
In an attempt to clear up your many misconceptions, let me start by explaining 
that the *Great American Beer Festival is NOT a part of the American 
Homebrewers Association*.  When it was explained to you on the phone that "we" 
were forced to make this policy change, the "we" refers to the Festival 
Director and the Festival Board of Directors, acting upon the professional 
advice of our paid security force and the Denver Police Department.  The 
Festival is NOT a membership organization. 
 
While the Festival utiizes hundreds of talented volunteers, this is a large 
event attended by more than 25,000 attendees and requires a paid, professional 
staff.  An important part of that paid staff is the professional security 
and police presence.  It is their job to ensure that the Festival occurs 
each year without incident. 
 
As colorful as your descriptions of militia and terrorists may be, the 
actual reason for our policy change is far less glamorous: we are simply 
guaranteeing the continuation of the Festival by abiding by state liquor 
laws.  The police department and the security agency agree that back packs 
represent a substantial threat to our ability to envorce those rules.  In 
the past there have been several documented attempts by attendees to 
remove beer from Currigan Hall--even during the Members-Only Tasting.  The 
removal of beer from the hall is a violation of the law and would result 
in an immediate shutdown of the Festival.  This would mean no more Festival 
for anyone. 
 
The vendors and attending breweries have been made aware of the policy 
change and have in fact supported the policy as necessary to ensure the 
Festival's continued success.  I hope that you will agree that carrying 
a plastic bag from the merchandise booth instead of your back pack is 
preferable to not having a Great American Beer Festival at all.  While it 
is unfortunate that the actions of a few effect all attendees, that is the 
case with this policy as it is with so many others. 
 
In closing, your concerns have been noted but due to the reasons cited this 
is not an issue that we will reconsider.  If you personally find this rule 
intolerable we can only advise that you not attend the Festival.  We would 
be happy to refund your money if you have already purchased tickets. 
 
Sincerely, 
Sheri Winter 
Marketing Director 
 
cc:Marcia Schirmer, Festival Director 
***************************************************************************** 
 
As this is probably a volatile issue, the AOB and all, I think that any 
further thoughts on the matter be discussed in private E-Mail.  If I am 
being petty in my attitude or if you, also, are pissed about this, just 
drop me a line at my E-Mail address to talk it over, rather than clog up 
the HBD with my rantings.  Thanks. If I'm out of line I'll appologize, if 
there are any folks that support my attitude I'll post a summary.  Ms. 
Schirmer doesn't have an E-Mail address, so if you want any response from 
her yourself you'll have to use the FAX number. (And get a response from 
her flunkie!)  This whole response seems so "smarmy".  (Look it up.) 
I will respond to private E-Mail only to save space on the HBD.  You 
folks can discuss it there if you must. 
 
The AOB says that they want to know what their members think of their 
organization, so here's your chance to be heard.  I, for one, have a 
totally different opinion of them today than I had last week.  Just what 
division of this organisation is for us and which is just for the stock- 
holders?  I think Shawn is doing a bang-up job with the HBD but does the 
organization have ulterior motives?  Hmmmm... 
 
The Liberal view would be: If someone is breaking the law, shut down the 
whole Festival.  It must be societies fault.  The lawbreaker is just a 
victim.  Burn some incense, get them a healing stone, council them. 
 
The Conservative view would be: If someone is breaking the law, arrest that 
person, and prosecute him/her.  Proceed with serious beer tasting. FINI! 
 
Oh, yeah... I forgot... The AOB is in Boulder...  (Palm slapping forehead: 
KLUNK...) 
 
"Savor the flavor, responsibly." 
 
__ 
                            I *L*O*V*E* my [Pico] system.  'Cept for that 
                            gonging noise it makes when my wife throws it 
                            off the bed at night. 
                            Women... 
                                                    --Pat Babcock 
 
 
            *** It's never too late to have a happy childhood!  *** 
 
****************************************************************************** 
V024971 at TAPE.STORTEK.COM  / Opinions expressed are usually my own but 
Robert J. Waddell         / perhaps shared (though not by my employer). 
Owner & Brewmaster: Barchenspieder Brew-Haus, Longmont, Colorado, USA 
*******************************************************************************

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From: Eric White <white at anchorage.anadrill.slb.com>
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 13:34:07 -0800
Subject: re:5 liter minikegs

I made the plunge last Friday for a softball picnic. I figured I'd let 
everyone "buy" me some minikegs so the bulk of the beer was Warsteiner and 
Grolsch mini's. I bought the more expensive, all metal Beer-King tap (around 
$70. in Alaska), with 10 CO2 cartridges. I would have purchased the cheaper 
co2 version, but they were out of stock. We killed four cartridges over 3 
mini-kegs. Not too good in my opinion, plus when I always seemed to get more 
foam than beer. It got better as you used the keg up, but I'm not overly 
impressed. If you should choose to acquire your mini-kegs by recycling 
empties as I'm doing, I recommend the Grolsch over the Warsteiner. The bungs 
in the Grolsch come out fairly easily, while the Warsteiner are a harder 
plastic that requires some major work to remove without trashing the opening 
in the keg. Let me know how your experience goes. 
 
Eric 
Eric R. White 
Anadrill Alaska 
District Controller 
Voice 907-349-4511 
Fax 907-349-2487 
 

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From: Jorge Blasig - IQ <gisalb at elmer.fing.edu.uy>
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 17:50:00 -0300 (UY)
Subject: keeping yeasts

Dear friends: 
 
I would appreciate your suggestions on how to keep yeasts for a long time. 
I am planning to mail order them soon. When I receive them, I will use 
part of them to brew but I will need to keep the rest until the next 
batch or until I receive the next order. This would take some time so I 
will need to keep them alive for a long time. Any suggestions? 
Thanks for your help. 
 
Jorge Blasig 

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From: biohazrd at graceba.net (biohazrd)
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 19:22:02 -0500
Subject: Piss Yeller

I sent this message previously while the HBD was down, if you have seen it 
please page down. 
] 
Due to several personal e-mail requests I would like to post the recipe 
for Piss Yeller mentioned in a previous posting to the HBD collective. 
Its not real involved unless you want to add a double decoction mash to 
bring out the malt flavor (a la Warsteiner). 
 
To Make 5 Gallons, 
 
6 lb          Belgian Pilzen Malt 
2 1/2 lb     Wheat malt 
1oz 4.3%  Willamet Hops 
1/2 oz       Saaz Hops (adjust to taste) 
Wyeast #1056 American Ale Yeast or Coopers dry. 
 
OG - 1.048 
FG -  ~1.012-1.007 depending on yeast 
Strike 10 qts at 126 deg. F and protein rest at 120 to 123 deg. for 30 to 
45 minutes. Increase to converstion temp of 150 to 155 and hold for 45 
minutes or until iodine test is negative. (Decoction mashing procedures 
single or double can be used instead) Be sure to mash-out at 168 deg. for 
5 min. this will help prevent a slow or stuck sparge (why I don't know but 
every time I brain cramp and forget to mash-out the sparge runs poorly) 
Sparge with 5 gallons of 168 deg. water and collect.  Boil 90 minutes 
adding Willamet at start of boil and add the Saaz at end of boil (about 10 
minutes). 
 
This beer benefits greatly from a week or two of cold laggering in the 
bottle after carbonation.  The color is lighter than Sam Adams Boston 
Lager and the flavor is somewhat similar.  I've got to admit, I started 
brewing this for my wife and some of our less beer "aware" friends but I 
really enjoy it myself also. 
 
The philosophy behind this beer is basically this; to brew a lager-like 
ale that most people would recognize as "beer" and have the taste 
characteristic lesser beer-educated Americans associate with beer.  The 
wheat is to serve the purpose of rice or corn in American beers and 
"lighten" both the color and the mouth-feel.  Fortunately, malted wheat is 
not an adjunct according to the Reinheitsgebot and this is still an 
all-malt beer. (Sharon is of German descent and enforces the purity law) 
The Saaz hops give the beer a flavor that most educated beer palets will 
associate with a lager or pilsner beer, Ive found that the Saaz flavor 
needs some mellowing time.  I also carbonate this beer a little more 
heavily than most ales (I add a cup or a cup and a quarter of corn sugar 
to 5 gallons at botteling time).  Once again this is to imitate the 
heavily carbonated nature of American beers.  Hope you enjoy it, please 
let me know how it turns out if you brew it. 
 
DUCK / WEAVE 
 
Sorry about the ramblings on the BATF but I'm a little sensitive on this 
issue and found myself sending the message without filtering, or even 
allowing it to drop bright. I must remember, there's no failsafe on the 
e-mail 
send button. 
 
Ron and Sharon Montefusco 
Biohazard Brewery 
(Drink to Your Health) 
 
 
 

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From: Aaron Sepanski <sepanska at it.uwp.edu>
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 20:00:00 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Sam Smiths Oatmeal Stout

 
There was a gentleman who said that he had an extract recipe for Sam 
smith's oat stout.  I wonder what happened?  I called your store, and the 
worker said that you would mail it to me.  Do you still have it?  If so 
please email it to me.  I'm  sorry if it seems like im busting your 
rocks, but the recipe sounds EXTREMELY worthwhile.  (making 2 cases of 
s.s.o.s. for less money then it would cost for a 12 pack at the store) 

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From: Bob Wilcox <bobw at sirius.com>
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 18:04:42 -0700
Subject: Homebrew competion

Does anyone know how to enter the homebrew competion being held at the 
Renaissance Pleasure Faire. It is located in Navato Calif, the dates are 
Aug 24 - Sept 29. You need to have entries in between Aug 27 & Sept 4. 
The Phone number listed in Zymurgy (summer issue ) has been disconnected. 
If anyone has info please email me. 
 
TIA 
 
Bob 
- -- 
Bob Wilcox 
Long Barn Brewing 
bobw at sirius.com 

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From: edyaz at epix.net
Date: Mon,  5 Aug 96 20:59:21 PDT
Subject: Brewpubs in Hudson River Valley

I am traveling to the Poughkeepsie/Kingston/Woodstock area in a few weeks. I've
received literature on several brewpubs, but I don't know how many I can make 
it to.
Can anyone tell me which ones I should check out and if there are any I should 
definitely avoid. Please email me at edyaz at epix.net. Thanks. 
- ------------------------------------- 
Name: Edward T. Yashinsky 
E-mail: edyaz at epix.net 
Date: 8/5/96 
Time: 8:59:21 PM 
 
This message was sent by Chameleon 
- ------------------------------------- 
 

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From: "Bridges, Scott" <bridgess at mmsmtp.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM>
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 96 16:14:00 PDT
Subject: Subject: alternatives to keg refrigerator

 
 
>From: Robert DeNeefe <rdeneefe at compassnet.com> 
>Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 08:54:02 -0500 
>Subject: alternatives to keg refrigerator 
> 
>I want to start using corny kegs, but I'm not sure how to keep the 
>darn things cold.  My wife is reluctant to put an old refrigerator 
>in the house for aesthetic reasons, so I am looking for alternatives. 
>As I'm not that mechanically inclined, complex building projects 
>are not an option for me.  If anyone has any unique ideas how to 
>chill and dispense beer from corny kegs, please let me know! 
 
Robert, 
Here is what I have done as a compromise.  This isn't exactly what you are 
asking for, but this may give you another choice.  I have everything except 
the fridge.  I got a regulator from Superior Products.  I got a CO2 tank 
from a local fire ext. supplier.  I got the kegs from a scrap yard ($5 each 
in serviceable condition).  I bought a Carbonator that screws onto the top 
of a 2L soda bottle. 
 
I keg the beer after fermentation.  I keep it at room temp.  Then I transfer 
from the keg to several 2L bottles.  I chill the bottles and then force 
carbonate.  The beer holds more CO2 when cold so it's easier to chill the 
beer first.  Then, I have several 2L bottles of cold, carbonated beer in the 
fridge.  They fit in the door of my fridge, so they are not really in the 
way. 
 
Seems to work for me.  I intend to get a second fridge some day, but for 
now, this is a good compromise. 
 
Scott 

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From: "David R. Burley" <103164.3202 at CompuServe.COM>
Date: 05 Aug 96 22:25:40 EDT
Subject: American Oak,

Brewsters: 
 
Rob Moline asks if American oak is suitable for beer. 
 
The answer is yes and no. most American oak barrels do have a more carpenter's 
floor taste than the  French ( I think now it is mostly Eastern European in 
origin)  oak equivalent and if an old whiskey barrel is used, undoubtedly one 
will get whiskey undertones supported by the burnt taste from the highly 
toasted
barrel walls. Most American oak casks are used ( once) to produce whiskey. The 
whiskey, being high proof and a good solvent extracts all the vanillins and 
related flavor ingredients as well as the caramelized wood sugars from the char
to get its smoothness and brown-red color. The fusel oils are extracted from 
the
whiskey into this charcoal on the wall, supposedly. Oak whiskey barrels are 
only
used once and then used as planters in the US, since they have no value to the 
whiskey manufacturer. It might surprise you to know that scotch whiskey in the 
old days was stored in oak sherry casks used to transport sherry from Spain to 
England rather than having their own casks made. Just a good Scot living up to 
his reputation, I guess!  I do wonder how the old scotches stored this way 
compare to today's? 
 
Recent experiments in California cooperages have found that proper treatment of
American oak ( basically treating it like the Europeans do theirs, weathering 
it
out doors, toasting it with oak fires, etc.) will produce good results. 
Although
the jury is still out in some people's minds, the mystique of the French taste 
may not be so far from being duplicated with American oak. However, I believe I
recall from another source that the density of american oak is higher and less 
penetrable to oxygen, so aging in American oak could take longer. The price 
differential in French vs American oak is forcing many wineries in California 
to
switch over at least part of their coopereage to American oak.  My own 
experience is that lightly toasted American Oak barrels do just fine in wine 
aging. 
 
As far as beer goes, the ability to extract the vanillins and tannins from the 
oak would undoubtedly go down from wine and whiskey due to the lower alcohol 
content. For this reason, I recommended in a previous epistle lightly toasting 
the oak chips and extracting them with a little high proof neutral spirit like 
vodka, then adding this to beer to see the effect on the taste of the beer. 
- ------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
 
Keep on brewin' 
 
Dave Burley 
 

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From: Miguel de Salas <mm_de at postoffice.utas.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 13:36:47 -1000
Subject: Grassy taste/aroma in hops

Hi, my name is Miguel, and I haven't been a member of the Digest for long 
(as a matter of fact, I joined today). 
I have had a problem with hops that I have grown at home or picked up 
growing feral in places where they are not grown any more: 
Last year I got my hands into about 2 kg of fresh hops of 4 different 
varieties, which I dried on a mesh for three days and then stored in 
snap-lock bags in the freezer. 
Now I find I haven't been able to use any of those hops. Whenever I use them 
I ruin the batch with very strong grassy flavours, like of tea made of fresh 
grass or roadside weeds. 
This has happened regardless of the variety, and the actual typical flavour 
of the variety is very weak in the background. 
I assume it can only be one of two things: either I didn't dry the hops 
enough, or I picked them while they were unripe. The summer had been 
exceedingly wet here in Tasmania, with very few sunny days. 
Any help will be most appreciated. 
Cheers 
      Miguel 
 

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