---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Jethro and LABCO (Andy Walsh)
  Outatown ("David R. Burley")
  Rising Og, ("David R. Burley")
  hops again ("Andy Walsh")
  RE: Sankey fermenters ("Keith Royster")
  brewing with fruit and berries ("Andrew J. Londo")
  MLD subscription (MIS, SalemVA)"
  Re: Bud Beer School (Spencer W Thomas)
  Re: Northwest Micros (Spencer W Thomas)
  PH meter with temperature correction (Ian Smith)
  Taste improvements due to filtering. (Ian Smith)
  Budweiser Beer School ("Lee Carpenter")
  rejected by MLD (haafbrau1)
  Brewpub Tour In Seattle (Charles Burns)
  When to pick hops ? Avoiding the "grassy" smell ? (Ian Smith)
  Pee Pee Slapping? (John E Carsten)
  Recipe for Paulaner Oktoberfest ("Gidlof, Glenn")
  Rising Gravity? (Brian S Kuhl)
  sparge temps ("Bryan L. Gros")
  Christoffel Blond copy? (Ben Timmerman)
  Technical Director of John Haas responds... (Andy Walsh)
  Sam Adams clones (DGofus)
  Natural Gas vs. Propane (Darrell)
  Extraction Effic / Low fermentation temps ("Michael Kowalczyk")
  NW Hopping Rates (David Whitwell)
  killed on date (John_E_Schnupp)
  Mead-Lover's Digest, Cider Digest, and spam-blocking (Dick Dunn)
  Re: IPA Recipe ("Joel Plutchak")
  Taguchi, Punkin Ale, Brew Chicks (eric fouch)
  Neophyte anecdote (Tim Plummer)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 15:59:02 -0700
From: Andy Walsh <awalsh at crl.com.au>
Subject: Jethro and LABCO

I'm not sure what has been posted here (immediately before this post)
concerning Rob Moline and LABCO. I have some idea, so will try and
summarise:

Rob has worked for years at LABCO, with long hours, poor salary and a
general manager with a bad attitude. He has transformed the brewery from
one that produced nothing but infected beers to one that produced gold
at one of the world's toughest beer competitions. He is moving to Ames,
Iowa, officially because his wife has been offered a good job there, but
unofficially because he has had enough of the lack of appreciation and
poor conditions he gets at LABCO. He has supplied (free of charge) much
of the paraphernalia at the brewpub that provides the atmosphere. After
giving notice to the owners, and getting the OK to take all his
possessions with him ("Just leave the bobcat"), the head chef and
general manager have accused him of theft and reported him to the police
when he tried to load all his gear  into a truck, leaving the pub
without any character (much the way it was in the first place, heh
Rob?). The police have since determined it is a civil, not criminal
matter, but there remains potential lawsuits from this angle, but also
on who gets the medals for the competitions he has entered (and largely
paid the entry fees for himself anyway). It's too long a story to tell
here, and I'd probably get lots wrong anyway, but he is in a real pickle
and needs our support.

Although we have never met, or even spoken on the phone to each other,
Rob must be the most generous man I know of, and the keenest anywhere in
spreading the word of craftbrew. Beerwise, Australia is kind of in the
situation the USA was 15 years ago (except for the exorbitant taxes
here!). The market is dominated by mass-produced pale lagers (30%
sucrose). Brewpubs and microbreweries are in short supply: those that
exist are soon swallowed by the Fosters juggernaut, and to be honest,
often have quality (control) problems anyway. Rob knows this, having
lived much of his life in this country.

Anyway, he has sent me and my friends here, at great expense to himself
(several hundreds of dollars!), many samples of beers he has made,
partly for our feedback (as if he didn't already get enough of that from
his customers and peers in the industry!), but I think mainly just to
give us a taste of the revolution that has happened in the US, that we
are yet to experience. He sent me hand-counter-pressure-bottled samples
of the original GABF gold medal winning barleywine, *before* the
competition. He even sent me a sample just a few weeks ago, a year
later, of the original brew! He has sent me samples of many of his other
beers, tons of beer glasses and beer magazines - all unasked for. And
all his beers were outstanding. He was even prepared to donate a free
keg of barleywine to a going away party for Dave Draper (now in Dallas),
if I could organise the freight in time (I couldn't). And whatever you
do, don't ever tell him you're coming to Australia (as Dave has -
twice!), as he'll load you up with beer, glasses and magazines to send
to me once you get here. Of course I would have loved to guzzle it all
myself, but I have taken it in the spirit that it was sent, and
distributed it amongst my friends, and organised special tastings and
judging sessions, to provide some of the feedback he wanted.

I don't know all the details of the problems he has had at LABCO. I know
from my own dealings with him that he is of impeccable character and is
a victim of his own generosity and conviction to improving the craftbrew
scene. What an indignity to be accused of stealing your own stuff after
being promised for years by the manager to buy it from you! And since
when were they responsible for the prize-winning beers he has made? I
humbly offer Rob any support I can (whatever that can be over the miles
 - maybe just moral), and urge any other readers he has helped over the
years to do the same. I'm surely not the only one.

Hopefully it will all turn out well soon, in Ames, Iowa, and Rob will
have his OWN brewpub and brew the way he wants, and run the show the way
he wants. If anyone deserves that, it's Jethro.

Andy Walsh.
ex-president, Little Apple Brewery Appreciation Society, Sydney
Division. (disbanded in disgust!)
president, Rob Moline Appreciation Society, Sydney Division.

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Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 02:08:49 -0400
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Outatown

Brewsters:

I'm gonna be doing some golfing in NC for a week. I'm not ingnoring e-mai=
l.
 I will respond when I get back next week.


Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  =

Voice e-mail OK =

=2E

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Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 02:39:34 -0400
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Rising Og,

Brewsters:

Newbie (welcome aboard!)  Dembskey says his SG is rising after fermenting=

instead of falling.

You have discovered one of the great pitfalls with using hydrometers to t=
ry
to find out if the fermentation is finished.   The CO2 bubbles in the bee=
r
are coating the sides of the hydrometer and making it rise. Pour the beer=

back and forth several times to degas it and spin the hydrometer in the
cylinder filled with the degassed beer and read *quickly*. The other
pitfall with using the hydrometer with fermented beers is that different
beers finish at different SGs because of the varying dextrin content. A
better solution is to determine the remaining glucose.  See my earlier
posts here on the use of Clinitest.
- ----------------------------------------
Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  =

Voice e-mail OK =


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Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 23:15:45 +1000
From: "Andy Walsh" <awalsh at crl.com.au>
Subject: hops again

>From Dave Burley:

>> The same variety grown under different conditions
>>will also brew differently, so forget about
>>the anecdotal evidence.

"Or is this myth based on the incorrect
 identification of the hop variety?  I have read
 that the Hallertauer is the only hop that
 produces the same quality in the US as
 Germany.  Maybe the reason is that it is the
 same plant and others were incorrectly
 identified - perhaps on purpose??"

In the Stucky paper (JASBC 97), they have individuals describe the smell of
15 samples of raw hops (including US Tettnanger and Fuggle). The
descriptors are processed via principal component analysis and the oils
analysed via GLC. They discovered that the first principal component
correlated well with myrcene which was described as fruity, floral, pine
and sage. ie. myrcene appears to provide the single greatest component in
differentiating the smell of raw hops.

The panel could differentiate Fuggle and Tettnanger by smell (although they
are pretty close). The GLC analysis shows Tettnanger to be consistently 10%
higher in every component of the GLC analysis (about a dozen). Since the
ratios of the oils are the same, I believe that Colin Green of Wye would
say they are the same hop (OK - speculation!).

Different growing conditions produce different amounts of myrcene. Myrcene
levels increase with maturity. The Stucky data would seem to indicate that
the Tettnanger is a more mature flower of the same variety as the Fuggle.
(they make no mention of this though).

So, 
 - myrcene provides the greatest differentiator is distinguishing raw hops.
and
 - myrcene levels vary greatly with flower maturity before picking (and
growing conditions)
=>growing conditions and harvest time will significantly affect hop aroma.
(this can't be any secret to the farmers!)

While on the subject, ethanol extraction will significantly affect the GLC
analysis, but CO2 extraction or pelletising will not.

I know a lot of these journals are difficult to get hold of. I think we'll
see them becoming more widely available on the web. MBAA (www.mbaa.com)
have plans to do this, I think. The IOB are expanding their website, as are
John Haas. This should make things much easier for people to see all this
stuff first-hand (and to harass the hop growers!). I'm harassing the
Technical Director of Haas about this right now (I don't necessarily expect
any answers though).
*****
George De Piro says:
>Just a quick note to let Andy Walsh know that I hate him.
>I have 4 Tettnang vines in my first year hop garden, and they're doing
really 
>well.   What the heck should I call them now?  
   
Yeah? Well not as much as I hate you George! You're lucky you're not any
closer or I'd give those Styrian Fuggnangs (Teggles?) of yours some
different growing conditions (somewhere with a little less sunlight)!

Andy.


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Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 10:02:53 +0500
From: "Keith Royster" <keith at ays.net>
Subject: RE: Sankey fermenters

Rick Seibt <rseibt at apk.net> and BBrowne at golder.com (Barry Browne)
discuss Fermentors for 10+ gallon batches

Well, I just finished using my first sankey as a fermenter and I
loved it.  Rick and Barry seem to have used theirs as a closed
fermentor, like a glass carboy while mine I cut open and used in
more of an open fermentation method. Here's how I built and used
mine:

Turn the sankey upside down so the stem hole is pointing down, and
cut the upper part off (what was the bottom) using a 4" disc grinder
so that a standard stock pot lid will cover the hole. Now, shove a
#11 drilled rubber stopper up into the stem hole good and tight.  I
had to use a hammer to get it in good.  Then cut a 2' piece of 3/8"
copper tubing into two pieces, one about 4" or 5" long and reconnect
them using a copper elbow and some solder. You should have a very 
tall and skinny looking copper "L".  Shove the short end of the 
copper tube into the drilled hole of the rubber stopper and carefully 
bend the long end to that it curves up and out of one of the handles 
of the Sankey. Now connect the valve of your choice to the end of the 
tube sticking out from the keg.  The tube in the keg should protrude 
up above the rubber stopper about an inch so that the yeast can 
settle around it without getting siphoned into the secondary.

> Activity is tough to judge, you can only go by the bubbling
> of the fermentation lock (or lack thereof).

Of the the pros for open fermantation in a Sankey, the one drawback 
is that you can't let it sit it there forever. I am essentially doing 
an open fermentation in my keg and am thus relying on the positive 
pressure of fermentation CO2 to keep nasties from slipping in under 
my lid.  Once active fermentation slows or stops it is time to 
transfer to a closed secondary. I transfered my first batch after 
only 3 days in the primary once I saw the foamy head collapse back 
into the beer.

> The #11 stopper fits, but because of the notch in the top
> of the keg, you need to make sure its snugly in there.

Like I said, I had to hammer mine in there good.  But there's no 
worry of it coming out because when righted the entire keg is sitting 
right on the rubber stopper.

> Cleaning can be a bitch.  I soak w/tsp or dishwasher detergent asap
> after racking or you get a yeast ring like I got.  I plan on using
> NaOH to get rid of it as soon as I find some.

I found mine fairly easy to clean with soap and water as long as I
didn't let anything dry too long.  My only worry is the seam at
the bottom between the rubber stopper and the keg seems like a great
place for nasties to hide. 

> To inspect the inside of the keg, I use a night light (w/o
> shade, just bare bulb), attached to an extension cord, and
> lower it into the keg  and then use a telescopic mirror (Sears
> tool section - like a dental mirror) and use the mirror to
> inspect the keg.  IT WORKS.  Just make sure the keg is dry
> and I also plug into an GFCI outlet to be safe otherwise
> electrocution is possible.

> Overall the work load is increased, but the results are
> worth it. IMO

Sounds like a lot of work!  IMHO, I'd cut a whole in the bottom big 
enough to stick your face in, turn it over, and call it an open 
fermenter. I had mine cleaned up inside of 15 minutes, no light bulbs 
or mirrors needed ;)

Cheers!

Keith Royster - Mooresville, North Carolina
"An Engineer is someone who measures it with a micrometer,
marks it with a piece of chalk, and cuts it with an ax!"

mailto:keith at ays.net
http://www.ays.net - at your.service web design & hosting
http://www.ays.net/brewmasters -Carolina BrewMasters club page 
http://www.ays.net/RIMS -My RIMS (rated COOL! by the Brewery)
http://www.ays.net/movingbrews -pumps and accessories for advanced homebrewers

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 11:27:10 -0400
From: "Andrew J. Londo" <ajlondo at mtu.edu>
Subject: brewing with fruit and berries

Hello fellow home brewers.  I have some questions concering the use of fruit
and berries in making beer.  My main question is how to sterilize the
berries before adding them to the wort.  I live in an area with abundant
wild berries and am interesting in making some blue, black, and raspberry
beers this fall.  

thanks in advance for your help and suggestions.

Andy Londo


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Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 11:27:19 -0400
From: "Moyer, Douglas E (MIS, SalemVA)"
Subject: MLD subscription

Paul,
	I'm not completely sure, but I am willing to bet that you got
rejected in your attempt to subscribe to MLD because you are using Juno
as an email provider. Juno, like other free email providers, is often
used by spammers, and some lists refuse addresses from said providers.
Bummer.
	Dick Dunn is the digest janitor, and you can reach him at
rcd at talisman.com, I believe. 


Doug Moyer
Big Lick Brewing Collective
"Big Lick--brewed with spam and TLC."

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Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 11:33:19 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Bud Beer School 

Speaking of the "real Budweiser", I was in Beers of the World in
Rochester, NY recently, and spotted a beer called "Crystal."  It was
made in Ceske Budejovice (in German, "Budweis").  Inquiring minds want
to know: Is this the real stuff, or is it yet another beer that
happens to be made in the same town?

=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI        (spencer at umich.edu)

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 11:38:31 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Northwest Micros 


>>>>> "Mark" == Mark Rancourt <rancourt at nelson.ca.boeing.com> writes:

    Mark> Consider this your <unnecessary crudeness deleted> being slapped.

I'm sorry to hear that you are missing out on the pleasures of
drinking well-balanced, smooth beers, such as Pilsner Urquel, most
British Pale Ales, and the list goes on and on.

Sure, the edges of the spectrum are fun to visit, but as your sole
diet, it's got to be boring after a while.

=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI        (spencer at umich.edu)

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 09:47:13 -0600 (MDT)
From: Ian Smith <rela!isrs at netcom.com>
Subject: PH meter with temperature correction

Can anyone suggest a good quality temperature compensated digital 
electronic PH meter ? I am looking for a relatively inexpensive one (of 
course). What are some of the drawbacks of using them (I understand that 
they have to be kept in a buffered reference solution and that the 
electrodes need replacing from time to time ). Are they worth the money 
compared to using paper strips ? What are the benifits and/or drawbacks ?

Cheers
Ian Smith
isrs at rela.uucp.netcom.com


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Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 09:28:47 -0600 (MDT)
From: Ian Smith <rela!isrs at netcom.com>
Subject: Taste improvements due to filtering.


I talked to one of our local brewers in Boulder, Colorado this weekend and he
suggested using a 3-5 micron filter to filter beer and give it a "clean" or
"crisp" non-homebrewed taste. Apparently unfiltered beer has a lot of
suspended particles that obscure or "clog" (technical term) your taste buds
and this masks the hop and malt taste in the beer. Does anyone have any
experience with filtering and it's effect on beer taste ? If so could you
forward the details of the filter size, type, cost etc. to me or the HBD ?
Also how do you keep the filter sanitized ? 

Cheers
Ian Smith
isrs at rela.uucp.netcom.com


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Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 13:24:15 -0400
From: "Lee Carpenter" <leec at redrose.net>
Subject: Budweiser Beer School

Stir Doctors,

First of all, let me make it clear that I STRONGLY dislike Annheiser-Busch
due to their Walmart-like business practices. I will never purchase a
product brewed by them again.
   That said, I must say that I also attended the Bud beer school when the
mobile version came to Lancaster, Pa. Our instructor was the assistant
brewer from the Merrimack, NH facility, where most of the specialty items
are made. To my surprise the presentation was totally devoid of marketing
hype and focused only on the hard-core facts of brewing. He answered the
many questions, some fairly sarcastic ones included, honestly, and from
what I could tell, accurately.    The only sign that this was the new "sour
grapes" A-B, was a cheesy display by the exit that asked people to "Guess
where these beers are made". The display housed a Sam Adams and a Stoudt's
brew among others.
   I took my certificate, bottle opener, and several other trinket type
gifts and left without feeling that I had wasted two hours of my life. The
price was certainly right (free), and I actually learned a few things. I'll
still never buy an A-B product again, but this was definitely an
interesting two hours.

Lee C. Carpenter

"You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline--it
helps if you have some kind of football team, or some nuclear weapons,
but at the very least you need a beer."
                                       -- Frank Zappa


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Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 13:44:49 -0400
From: haafbrau1 at juno.com
Subject: rejected by MLD

Thanks for everyone's responses and helpful advice, however, it seems I
am doomed to MLD rejection.  Thanks to their spam filters, my e-dress is
black listed, due to my carrier.  I guess my only recourse (other than
getting on the Net) is to panhandle 'bootleg' copies of MLD from my
fellow HBDers.  How sad.
You would think that since SPAM is unsolicited commercial e-mail (uce),
they would have filters that could differentiate that from legitamite,
established, e-dresses,such as my own.  I can't even contact the MLD
janitor, because that e-dress is filtered also.  If anyone can plead my
case to him on my behalf, it would be appreciated.  Sorry for the wasted
band-width, now back to botulism, malta, and insulting others' beer
tastes. :-)  I'm only kidding.  HBD has been a great source of info, and
even comic relief.  I've never met a collective as friendly and willing
to help as HBDers.
Cheers,
Paul Haaf
haafbrau1 at juno.com

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Date: Mon, 18 Aug 97 11:07 PDT
From: cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charles Burns)
Subject: Brewpub Tour In Seattle

I'm spending a weekend in Seattle in late October. Need recommendation for 
which hotel to stay in? I plan to visit as many brew pubs as possible in two 
days and would rather not rent a car if possible (it could get dangerous). 
What hotel(s) would be my best bet? Private email is fine.

I apologize for the wasted bandwidth but this group is great for stuff like 
this.

Charley (traveling again) from N.Cal



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Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 11:43:32 -0600 (MDT)
From: Ian Smith <rela!isrs at netcom.com>
Subject: When to pick hops ? Avoiding the "grassy" smell ?


Some time ago I asked the question about when to pick hops (how do you 
know when they are ripe ?) and also how to avoid the "grassy smell" 
associated with home grown hops. Here are the responses: (If any one has 
additional info please e-mail me).

Mike Allred suggested:

You should pick the hops when they start to feel 'paperish'.  If they
'feel' green and alive, they are not ready.  Try drying them as low as you
can in the dehydrator.  I set mine for 120 deg and it takes about a day to
dry them.  They are done when you can snap the inner stem by bending them
with your fingers.  The grassy smell should not be very strong and it goes
away if they are fully dried in a few days.

Lee Carpenter said:

Two things that I was told to remember:

1) The hops will get smaller as the season goes on. Don't let them on the
vine waiting for them to match the size of the first picking.

2) Hops are not ready for picking if, when you squeeze them, they feel
cool. It sounds dopey, but I found it to be true.

And David Burley suggested:

Grassy smelling hops ( if I am imagining it correctly)
 I'm guessing may be due to a "silage" smell and
 perhaps explains why the professionals treat their
 green hops with sulfur dioxide to prevent spoilage
 while drying.  Try getting a sulfur candle from your
 HB store or buying sulfur at the drugstore and  burning
 that so the vapor passes through the clusters before
 they are dried.    I have also smelled hops that are
 too dry when picked and they do have a sort of
 dried grassy smell.

To test for correct dryness, place a small
 cheesecloth bag containing a weighed amount
of hops in the drier with the rest of the hops and
 weigh it every 12 hours or so.  When you get a
fairly steady weight then the hops are as dry as
 they will get with your method. Hops will lose
about 80% of their picked weight.

Cheers
Ian Smith
isrs at rela.uucp.netcom.com


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Date: 18 Aug 1997 13:50:00 -0500
From: John E Carsten <John.E.Carsten at oklaosf.state.ok.us>
Subject: Pee Pee Slapping?

on 14 Aug 1997 07:01:11 -0700, Mark Rancourt wrote ...

"This is in reaction to that NY guy from
HBD 2482 that more or less stated that micros from around here are one 
dimensional, out of
balance, and generally overhopped.
Consider this your pee-pee being slapped."

Hmmmmm.  I think you've come to the wrong place pal.  There will be NO PEE PEE 
SLAPPING
around here.  There are other mailing lists which cater to that sort of thing.  
You keep your hands
off my dip tube buddy.

(P.S. - For those of you who are going to get all wound up and start some sort 
of "pee pee slapping"
thread .... the preceding comments were meant as a joke.  Take it easy)

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Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 12:23:24 -0700
From: "Gidlof, Glenn" <ggidlof at walldata.com>
Subject: Recipe for Paulaner Oktoberfest

Caution, lurker coming out of the brew basement.

I have been brewing for about 8 months now and am now going to step up
from extract to all-grain.  I am currently looking for an all-grain
recipe for an Oktoberfest that clones Paulaner's.  I'm not concerned
about style guidelines and certainly don't want to start another "Blue
Moon" thread about wheather this is a good or bad beer.  I am just
hoping that someone out there might be able to help me out with an
all-grain recipe for a Paulaner Oktoberfest.  I like it and to me that's
the most important.

TIA

 -Glenn Gidlof


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Date: Mon, 18 Aug 97 13:13:00 PDT
From: Brian S Kuhl <Brian_S_Kuhl at ccm.fm.intel.com>
Subject: Rising Gravity?

Evan writes...

>>Hi there.

>> am new to both this list and to brewing in general. I have one
>>puzzling problem. I made my second ale
>>a couple of weeks ago. When I check the SG it seems to be rising, not
>>falling. It started out at about
>>1100, and is now 1300.

>>What now?
>>Evan,

This rise in specific gravity is caused by yeast regurgitation. You see, the 
yeast could not properly digest the sugars and thus expelled them causing the 
rise. This is usually caused by an improper yeast to malt combination. For 
instance, using a German Wheat malt with an American Ale yeast.
Seriously, I can't say for sure because of your numbers and other information is
missing. I would assume you are almost done fermenting and the numbers are 
actually 1.010 to 1.013. This rise could be caused by temperature differences 
when reading the hydrometer (read at 60 degrees F). Check the calibration of 
your hydrometer by reading water only at 60 degrees. Should be 1.000. Where 
there bubbles stuck to your hydrometer while reading that bubbly beer. Spin the 
hydrometer while dropping it into your test vessel. Another reason could be that
your wart/beer may have layers of differing gravity depending upon the depth of 
that the sample was taken. Was the carboy undisturbed? Give it a careful stir to
alleviate this uncommon issue.
Tell us how you are progressing,
Brian

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Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 13:15:26 -0700
From: "Bryan L. Gros" <gros at bigfoot.com>
Subject: sparge temps

Rob writes:
>Excuse me if I seemed to be oversimplifying things. It's true that my
>whole system is different than it was before. I didn't mean to imply
>that I only changed one element of the operation. The point I had
>*hoped* to make, however, was that the general aim (and the result) of
>the majority of my changes (not needing to transfer the grains to a
>separate vessel for sparging, for example) was more consistent (and
>higher) temperature maintenance throughout the mashing/sparging process.

I agree with Rob's original idea.

I think that people who get lower efficiencies should concentrate on
sparging for close to an hour, and keeping their grain temp near 170F
during that time.  When I can do this, I get higher efficiencies in my
system.  But sankey kegs need good insulation during the sparge.

John Gilman mentioned stopping the sparge once or twice and
stirring to increase extraction.  I will probably try this next time I
brew and see what happens.  Makes sense, and would probably
allow you to sparge a little faster as well.


          - Bryan
            gros at bigfoot.com
            Oakland, CA

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Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 13:43:47 -0700
From: Ben Timmerman <benjee at earthlink.net>
Subject: Christoffel Blond copy?

Has anyone got an extract recipe for a Christoffel Blonde beer?  This
has to be the finest beer I've ever had the pleasure of tasting.  If
not, do you have a close copy?

Ben

"If you're gonna jump in, jump clear up to your neck the first time."

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Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:22:02 -0700
From: Andy Walsh <awalsh at crl.com.au>
Subject: Technical Director of John Haas responds...

Well I have received a response to my email from John Haas:

My original query was...

"From the John Haas website:

>Tettnanger is an old aroma variety originating in the 
>Tettnang area around Lake Constance in Southern Germany. 
>Selection of Tettnanger rootstocks in Germany resulted in 
>two different rootstocks now available to U.S. growers. 
>Each produces hops with distinct analytical data. One is 
>more like the German grown Tettnanger than the other. Analytical 
>data in this brochure are for the rootstock most widely grown 
>in the U.S.A.

So which is more true to type, the most common rootstock or the less
common? Which appeared first, and how do I know if I am buying the true
to type variety if they are both called US Tettnanger? They can't both
be Tettnanger, can they? And if not, what exactly is the other one?"

The response was:

"Dear Mr. Walsh:

I am responding to your 13-Aug-97 E-Mail re the above topic.

The commercial US Tettnanger rootstock came from the US Department of
Agricullture, Corvallis, Oregon hop germplasm collection.  The
Tettnanger
rootstock in that collection came from Germany.
 
Although the Haas brochure says two Tettnanger-type rootstocks are
available to US growers, essentially only one rootstock is grown
commercially in the US, the one described in the brochure as most
widely-
grown  ie the one with the analytical profile described in the brochure. 
The US Tettnanger described in the brochure has an analytical profile
more
similar to UK Fuggle than to German Tettnanger. Therefore, if you buy US
Tettnanger hops, you will  receive the type described in the brochure.
If
you want a Tettnanger with analytical profile similar to the German
Tettnanger, you will need to buy from Germany.

Please feel free to contact me again if you need more information.

Yours sincerely,  <name deleted>,  Vice-President / Technical Director,
John I
 . Haas, Inc."

(I have deleted his name as I intend to pursue the matter further, and
would request that readers not harass the man until I have the
information I desire)

Notice I make no mention of Fuggle in my question. He stops short of
saying that US Tettnanger is Fuggle, but the inference is that Colin
Green is correct. ie. all commercially available US Tettnanger is
Fuggle. The mysterious second rootstock *is* Tettnanger but not grown
commercially (yet). (I wonder why Haas ever obtained a second
rootstock?)

Brewing Techniques had an article on US hops at the end of 96 (Vol. 4,
No. 6  "Hops in America: A 20-Year Overview", Ing. Gerard W. Ch. Lemmens
 - I don't have it handy). I was amazed to read under US Tettnang that
the authors said it tested closely to German Tettnanger except for low
farnesene levels. What nonsense! It tests closely but it doesn't? (sorry
I can't provide quotes - I'm sure many of you have this issue anyway).

Stay tuned...

Andy.

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Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 21:42:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: DGofus at aol.com
Subject: Sam Adams clones

I am 8 months into my homebrewing career and seeing that fall is slowly
approaching, I am preparing a wish list of beers to brew. I would like to
tackle a few lager type brews this winter. Any help, suggestions or
guidlines? I enjoy Sam Adams lager and would like a recipe for that. I also
likew Marzen-Fest brews and would like to try. Any recipes would be very
helpful. Can anyone reccomend good recipe books? What about the various
brewing Magazines? Thanks in advance. Private E-mail OK.

Bob Fesnire
Pottstown, PA
Dgofus at aol.com

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Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 20:13:54 -0600
From: Darrell <darrell at montrose.net>
Subject: Natural Gas vs. Propane

In HBD #2486, Thor asks about Propane vs. Natural Gas vs. Electricity.

"...and cant safely do so with propane  because of the fumes..."
There is no difference in the "fumes" of Propane vs. Natural Gas.  Both
are commonly used for indoors applications.  The problem is oxygen
depletion, and it will happen with both, so make sure your room is
adequately ventilated.  Depending on where you live, your sources, etc.
you will probably find that Natural Gas is the least expensive of the
three per BTU.

- --
Darrell Garton
Montrose, CO




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Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 21:35:51 -0700
From: "Michael Kowalczyk" <mikekowal at megsinet.net>
Subject: Extraction Effic / Low fermentation temps

Rob / Alan.

> Alan McKay responds to my post on extract efficiencies and system
overhauls:
>
> Rob, you can't change your entire brewing system and then say that
> you attribute your higher extraction to one simple variable like the
> water
> temperature, or whether or not you have to transfer the mash.  This
> is so far from a controlled experiment that it isn't funny.  You've
> basically
> changed every single variable, yet want to believe that your better
> extraction is a result of only one of them.

I have to agree with Alan.  I recently brewed raising my mash-out temp 7
degrees to 176 after reading this thread.  Changed nothing else, and realized
the same %87 efficiency I've had for the last 5 brews.  Bummer.  Looks like
%87 is the best I can do with my brewery.  Although I'm not complaining in
the least.  Just though this thread gave me someting new to try.

On another note.  I'm using the "wet towel" technique to lower the
fermentation temp  (wet towels in my spare shower with the drain stopped up..
my wife is a saint!).  Thanks to all who've urged me to try this technique. 
We'll know in 3 weeks whether it works.

Question:  Does this technique work for lowering temps below 55 deg?  I pored
over my notes from the winter and realized that my brewery temps are about 56
in January - February 15.  If I lower them an extra 7 degrees using this
technique, I can just barely do a lager.  As it is now, I just do one lager
in February (with lots of fanfare and tons of sacrifices to the Carlsburg
beer-gods).  If the "wet towel" technique works for lower temps, then I can
do 3 outstanding lagers instead of only 1....  Anybody have good results at
low temps using the "wet towel" technique?  Or is this just a >60 degree
phenom.

 - Mike in Chicago 

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Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 19:26:40 -0700
From: dwhitwell at foxcomm.net (David Whitwell)
Subject: NW Hopping Rates

Couldn't help but chime in...the New Yorker questioned whether or not
Northwest Brewers had ever heard of balance in a beer:

Sure...make sure your Chinooks balance with your Cascades and Willamettes!!
;-)

If you're ever in the neighborhood, Tacoma's Engine House #9 (my fav
brewpub) offers a sinus-clearing IPA called "Old Hop Head".  Your food will
taste bland for a week after consuming a few pints of it.

Brew On!
David Whitwell
Half-Whit Brewing, Tacoma, Washington
"Because Half the Whit's Brew, and Half the Whit's Don't"

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Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 22:17:18 -0700
From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com
Subject: killed on date

Steve Jackson:
>It seems to be the consensus of those who responded to my post
>regarding Bud's "born-on" dates that they assume the date represents
>the bottling date. To me, a beer is born when it is set to
>fermentation -- after all, you don't label your child's birth as the
>day he or she left the hospital -- but I realize I'm playing with
>semantics a bit here.

Samuel Mize:
>Since they pasteurize before bottling, wouldn't it be more accurate
>to call it a "killed-on" date?

If this is the case then wouldn't a persons birthday technically
be the day the sperm fertilized the egg?  I personally like to
think of it like a "killed on" date as Samuel pointed out.


John Schnupp, N3CNL
Colchester, VT
95 XLH 1200



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Date: 18 Aug 97 23:43:50 MDT (Mon)
From: rcd at raven.talismanospam.com (Dick Dunn)
Subject: Mead-Lover's Digest, Cider Digest, and spam-blocking

[preface: I host the Mead-Lover's Digest and the Cider Digest.  I'm sorry
this has almost nothing to do even with mead or cider, let alone beer.  It
is a meta-message about how we beer/mead/cider folk communicate.  -rcd]

Paul Haaf wrote in the last HBD about having difficulty subscribing to the
Mead-Lover's Digest.  The problem, in brief, is that there are domains
which are often sources of "spam" (junk-email) accounts...so they are
blocked upstream of talisman.com (which hosts the mead and cider digests).
Some (the cyberpromo/savetrees cesspool; owlsnest) are obvious--there's no
reason to let them through.  But there are other domains which host both
legit users and too many spammers to ignore (including one-shot attackers).
Some of these are blocked, and it causes problems because the legit users
can't get email through to various places they might want.  (The mail
doesn't bounce; it is rejected outright, upstream of me.  I never see it; I
only find out by some out-of-band approach like Paul's plea to the HBD.)

I won't just un-block all the spam domains...I can't, because my modems
and machines are too busy to put up with some of the attacks I've gotten.
If you try to subscribe to MLD or CD and get a spam-block rejection, I'd
say (a) think about your choice of ISP, their policies, and in particular
whether they make accounts available in a way that encourages the one-shot
attackers.  Sometimes getting a cheap account isn't worth the bargain. (b)
Talk to your ISP about their policies.  If I find out that an ISP has taken
steps to clean up its act, I'll work to get it unblocked.  (c) Find a way
to get through and I'll try to accommodate you with an exception.

Info and subscriptions can be had for the Cider Digest from cider-request
at talisman dot com, and for the Mead-Lover's digest via mead-request@
talisman dot com.  Indicate in your request whether you're subscribing or
just asking for info, and if subscribing please include your real name.
- ---
Dick Dunn       rcd, domain talisman.com       Boulder County, Colorado  USA
    Smile.  Help.  Think.  Care.  Learn.  Sing.  Love.  Teach.  Live!

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Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 08:52:35 -0500
From: "Joel Plutchak" <joel at bolt.atmos.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Re: IPA Recipe

In HBD #2487, Mark Tumarkin <tumarkin at mindspring.com> queried:
>I have been playing with hops combinations. I love Cascades, but I have
>been trying to find other hops that work well with it. I like the Columbus
>a lot, and have also had good success with Chinook. Chinook seems sort of
>like Cascades on steroids. I know that some people seem to find the high
>alpha hops like Chinook or Columbus to impart a harsher flavor, but I have
>been pretty satisfied. Do you all have any combinations you particularly
>like? I'd love to hear about them.

   Personally, I like using Chinook for bittering American Pale, IPA,
and Browns.  Gives a nice robust bitterness with some flavor components
coming through even after an hour in the kettle.  I'm still experimenting,
but my favorite combination so far adds both Cascade and Goldings
in various measures and at various times between 30 and 15 minutes
before the end of the boil for flavor, with Cascades at kettle off
and/or dry-hopped.  Sometimes I throw some EKG or Willamette in the
secondary as well for that added aromatic touch.
   Centennial seems to work well for me, especially in combination
with Chinook for bittering-- it seems a bit smoother and less obviously
grapefruity.
   Also, I haven't brewed with 'em yet, but from what I've tasted of
commercial beer that has used Columbus, I look forward to trying
those for bittering.

- -- 
Joel Plutchak (plutchak at uiuc.edu)
Research Programmer, Department of Atmospheric Sciences
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign

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Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:17:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: eric fouch <S=fouch%G=eric%DDA=ID=STC021.efouch%Steelcase-Inc at MCIMAIL.COM>
Subject: Taguchi, Punkin Ale, Brew Chicks


Date: Tuesday, 19 August 1997 9:49am ET
To: STC012.HOMEBRE3 at STC010.SNADS
From: Eric.Fouch at STC001
Subject: Taguchi, Punkin Ale, Brew Chicks
In-Reply-To: The letter of Tuesday, 19 August 1997 2:21am ET
 
HBD-
 
> thickness, grain, crush, lauter vessel/method, etc.); there are likley
> additional environmental and procedural factors that not only have
> main effects, but also interactions (effect of factor A dependent on
> level of factor B).  Hence the need for rigorous testing with
> replication to find out which ones really drive the system.  This does
> extraneous factors, which is I'm sure what Alan refered to.  However,
> remember: there is no "proof" in science and that is why the null
> hypothesis is the thing that is tested.
 
SOMEbody has been reading their Taguchi and Shainin texts books :^(
 
I recently brewed up another batch of Punkin Head Ale.  I brewed last week to
give the spices a chance to mellow for October.  Last time, I brewed in
October (inside a live pumpkin) and the spices didn't settle down for a couple
months, so this time I've brewed early (couldn't use a real pumpkin) and used
a can (30 oz) of Libby's Pumpkin Pie stuff with the following recipe:
 
Mash #1
2#s Munich
2#s Vienna
1 cup Oatmeal
30 oz Libbys Pumpkin Pie stuff
Mash #1 schedule
122 F 15 min, 150 30 min, 158 30 min, Boil 30 min
 
Mash #2
5# Pale Ale Malt
1/2# Crystal
1/2 cup Roasted Barley
Mash #2 schedule
140 F 30 min, added mash #1 to 158 F 30 min.
 
The sparge was very smooth, did a batch sparge, collecting 5 gallons, then
adding 3 gallons of 200 F water and stirring, and collecting another 3 gallons
of wort.  Worked great]
Boiled in two pots (a 5g and 3g) and got 6 gallons of 1.050 wort.
 
Hops
1 oz Hallertuar, .25 oz Eroica for the boil
15 minutes- added .25 Hallertuar, cinnamon, allspice, nutmeg, cloves, IM
 
Yeast
Wyeast 1084
 
At racking, I'll dry spice with some more cinammon, allspice and vanilla.
Hopefully, this will be maltier and pumpkinier than last years Punkin Head,
which scored 31 at The US Open.
 
>airport.  I guess I can't blame people for wondering about a 5'2", 120 lb.
>female with a case of belgian beer and barleywines in her arms, but I enjoy
 
>Annual Queen of Beer Competition. The Queen of Beer women's only homebrew
>competition is open to all non-commercial home brewed beer, mead or cider
>produced by a person of female gender. Sponsored and hosted by HAZE. AHA
 
I've said it before, and I'll say it again (sneaking it in just before
company-wide sensitivity training):
 
"Chicks who brew are cool]"- Me
 
Eric Fouch
efouch at steelcase.com
Bent Dick YactoBrewery
Kentwood, MI
 
Political incorrectness and/or possible construed chauvenistic tendencies are
probably not views held by my employer, but rather my own maladjusted
dysfunctions brought about by being subjected to a teacher oriented curriculum
and outcome based evaluations in my impressionable youth.


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Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:20:42 -0700
From: Tim Plummer <plummer at brick.purchase.edu>
Subject: Neophyte anecdote

Hello homebrewers,
After waiting several months for the summer's heat to abate, last night
I brewed my first batch of the season--my second season.  4 gallons of
an ordinary bitter which will, hopefully, be ready for opening day of
football season.
Everything was going great; all the procedures were coming back to me as
if I hadn't taken a break from brewing at all.  Until... I put my lid on
my plastic fermenter, then inserted the airlock into the gasket.
 ...plunk...
In fell the gasket into my precious wort.  I had forgotten one simple
procedure:  put the airlock into the lid BEFORE you affix the lid to the
fermenter.  My only option was to scrub down my right arm, plunge it
into my brew, and retrieve the gasket.  Time will tell if any damage has
been done.
  
Here are the lessons I've learned from this little happening, which I
would like to pass on to others who may be resuming their brewing
practices after a summer hiatus.
	1)thoroughly review your procedures, it could be something small that
leads to your 'unbrewing.'
	2)have a spare rubber gasket for your lid

Regardless of my gaff, it was great to have the smells and flavors of
fresh brew in my home again.  Brewing season has arrived, and not a
minute too soon!

Hoppy brewing,
Tim Plummer (Port Chester, NY)
plummer at brick.purchase.edu

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---