HOMEBREW Digest #2890 Wed 02 December 1998

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		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com

  removable labels... (Badger Roullett)
  Cool Weather Questions (Matthew Taylor)
  Pronounced dead on arrival... (pbabcock)
  REQUEST: Mead Recipe ("Steven)
  re:New Thermometer (Charley Burns)
  Re: Heat Exchanger details (LaBorde, Ronald)
  Phix for phloating phalse bottom (Tad Seyler)
  prounoucing SAAZ (Alan Edwards)
  Beeston malts? ("Bryan L. Gros")
  CO2 (RMerid7682)
  Re: Attaching Phils Phalse Bottom ("Bill Splaine")
  Re:  Victory HopDevil bitter-sweet ("Jim Busch")
  New BOSS ("Michael Kowalczyk")
  Another virgin looses cherry, R.I.P. (Charles Burns)
  ABG schools ("Richard Scott")
  Where are you Lambic Digest? ("Rob Jones")
  Questions about pressure canning wort (Steve)
  Xantippe (Jim Liddil)
  re: 240V service, I need a neutral (Jason Henning)
  Brewpubs...a dying breed? (Bob Fesmire ) (DGofus)
  "kurds" in my beer!( Bob Fesmire) (DGofus)
  Recipe exchange format ("NFGS")
  Light beer fix? ("Ratkiewich, Peter")
  re RIMS vs HERMS (RobertJ)
  Re: Phil's Non Phloating false bottom ("Matthew J. Harper")
  240V service, I need a neutral (Rod Prather)
  Re:240V service, I need a neutral (Seth Goodman)
  Re: Old Style; lambic (Rod Prather)
  amber ale (scott zimmerle)
  Re: 240V service, I need a neutral ("John A. MacLaughlin")
  Floating air stones / shops ("Kirk Harralson")
  Re: modeling grain (Scott Murman)
  Label Help (MaltyDog)
  RE: Does Oxygenation with O2 increase lag time? (LaBorde, Ronald)

Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy! Send your entries in for the 1998 St.Louis Brews Happy Holidays Homebrew Competition yet? Details: http://www.stlbrews.org NOTE NEW HOMEBREW ADDRESS: hbd.org Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!! To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org. **SUBSCRIBE AND UNSUBSCRIBE REQUESTS MUST BE SENT FROM THE E-MAIL ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!** IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, the autoresponder and the SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE commands will fail! Contact brewery at hbd.org for information regarding the "Cat's Meow" Back issues are available via: HTML from... http://hbd.org Anonymous ftp from... ftp://hbd.org/pub/hbd/digests ftp://ftp.stanford.edu/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer AFS users can find it under... /afs/ir.stanford.edu/ftp/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer COPYRIGHT for the Digest as a collection is currently held by hbd.org (Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen). Digests in their entirity CANNOT be reprinted/reproduced without this entire header section unless EXPRESS written permission has been obtained from hbd.org. COPYRIGHT for individual posts within each Digest is held by the author. Articles cannot be extracted from the Digest and reprinted/reproduced without the EXPRESS written permission of the author. The author and HBD must be attributed as author and source in any such reprint/reproduction. (Note: QUOTING of items originally appearing in the Digest in a subsequent Digest is exempt from the above.) JANITORS on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 11:53:56 -0800 From: Badger Roullett <branderr at microsoft.com> Subject: removable labels... Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 11:18:57 -0800 From: "Brian Dixon" <mutex at proaxis.com> Subject: Re: Removable bottlelabels >> What is it? 3M brand Spray Mount Artist's Adhesive (white can ... not the black "Super 77" stuff you find in many places). If you read the label, you see that it results in repositionable bonds. You know, like a Post It (tm) note. I have a related question.. how does it stand up to sitting in a cooler, with Ice.? that melts after a while, and basically sits in a pool of coold water with icy chunks in it after a few hours at teh party? badger ********************************************* Brander Roullett aka Badger Seattle, WA Brewing Page: http://www.nwlink.com/~badger/badgbeer.html Badgers Brewing Bookstore: http://www.nwlink.com/~badger/brewbook.html In the SCA: Lord Frederic Badger of Amberhaven, Innkeeper of the Cat and Cup Inn Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 11:56:11 -0800 From: Matthew Taylor <mtaylor at mail.valverde.edu> Subject: Cool Weather Questions Hello All, I got the chance to brew this weekend. It's been so long since I've done an extract batch a couple of questions came to mind, not so much about the batch of brew but more relating to the cold weather. It was down in the "50's" while I was brewing out on my patio. The questions, #1: Does the outside temperature effect evaporation or is the steam just more visible the cooler it gets? Q#2: When I pitched the yeast, Wyeast Lab's "Wyeast Ale" the wort had cooled to about 70, the wort got down to 62 degrees after a cold night (low 40's) in the garage. The yeast took awhile to get started and now that it has, it all clumps together and looks like it's coated in a slim. Could this be the Irish Moss or did I pick up some infection while fermentation was kicking in? If I could keep my 1 and 3 year old sons out of the brew I'd bring it inside for awhile to warm up. Will that help? Thanks for the input Matt Taylor Grand Terrace, CA Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 16:03:41 -0500 (EST) From: pbabcock <pbabcock at mail.oeonline.com> Subject: Pronounced dead on arrival... Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager... A while back, I threw together a page containing about 90 or so pronunciations of potentially troublesome brewing terms. They are in .wav files (Sorry Unix users, I'll save .au copies as soon as I get the chance.) I had tossed the URL out to a few people in hopes of receiving some reviews before letting the cat out of the bag, but everyone is busy, and there's been no input - but a whole lotta discussion on the 'gest. So, kindly direct your browser to hbd.org/pronunciation and tell me what you think. Eventually, I'll add phonetic-like guides and a .au or .wav pick. This is all I've had time for so far. Audio quality may be poor, too, since I was debugging my soundcard installation at the same time. Looking for feedback and corrections to fubarred pronunciations in order to make the site a useful tool for all... See ya! Pat Babcock in SE Michigan pbabcock at oeonline.com Home Brew Digest Janitor janitor@hbd.org HBD Web Site http://hbd.org The Home Brew Page http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..." Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 15:18:08 -0500 From: "Steven <aka Automan>" <automan at ici.net> Subject: REQUEST: Mead Recipe If someone has a "GOOD" and "TRIED" recipe for making "MEAD" can you please forward it to me? Thanx Steven Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 13:21 PST From: caburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charley Burns) Subject: re:New Thermometer George De Piro writes about his new Polder Thermometer: "...<snip> The only drawback is that the probe cannot be immersed beyond the junction with the cable.<snip>..." George, I have a similar thermometer I got from HopTech and recently another one from the "Cellar" at Macy's. The one from HopTech appears to have a piece of heat-shrink tubing, about 1" long wrapped around that junction between the braid and the probe. I plan on going over to radio shack and getting myself 20 cents worth of the stuff and "waterproofing" my new thermometer from Macy's. Try it. The one from HopTech gets submerged a lot and never causes a problem. Charley (heat shrinking) in N. Cal. Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 15:41:41 -0600 From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald) Subject: Re: Heat Exchanger details >>>> From: "Dana H. Edgell" <edgell at cari.net> The following info I gained by webcrawling and search back HBDs Ian Smith: 25ft of 3/8" coil. 1gal/min flow through 152F water gives a wort temp of 150-150.8F Ronald LaBorde: 25ft of 5/8" coil "just thrown in the HLT" Rick Calley: 25ft of 1/2" horizonatal coil atached with Swage-lok bulkhead fittings David Ludwig: 8 ft of 1/2" horizontal coil inside the MASH-TUN and not the HLT. David pumps hot water through the MT and NOT hot wort through the HLT. This requires a mixer in the MT to ensure an even temperature. David recommends a short coil to "reduce drag on the circulating mash and to reduce the heat soak-back following temperature boosts" Zymie & IGOR: 25ft of 1/2" vertical coil, the coil is wrapped HLT at 170F <<<< Good for you! Webcrawling and searching archives are efficient and useful methods for obtaining info on the HBD. One should learn to crawl before one learns to type. I looks to me like David Ludwig's system may be the best design. It may not be the easiest, nor cheapest, but may in the end, give the best results. Several observations on my system: 1) I use a coil in the HLT with the wort circulating in it and through the mash. With this system it is not easy to stir the mash while circulating. If I do a temp step up, it takes time for the hotter incoming wort to reach all the way to the bottom of the mash, thus I cannot accurately know the mash timing. 2) If I do a decoction, and add the boiled portion, I need to manually stir in the grains to thoroughly mix the mash, not easy in a 10 gal. cooler. 3) I would think that with David's system, one could stir, infuse, decoct, etc.. to one's desire and then circulate at the end just after mashout to filter and clear, this dosen't take long and I cannot see the need to be circulating during the entire sacrification interval. 4) I am guessing that stirring the mash will produce more starch conversion and provide a more complete extraction of the starches from each granule then just circulating the liquor through the mash. 5) Without a grant, one could easily compact and stick the grain bed. With David's system, a grant could easily be used and temp steps and control would be a totally separate matter from sparging. 6) The most critical aspect of my RIMS is to be able to get enough flow rate to quickly move temperatures, while not sticking the grain bed. I know a better false bottom may help, but with David's system the problem can be completely eliminated from the design. Ron Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 17:16:38 -0500 (EST) From: Tad Seyler <tad at jw0.genetics.uga.edu> Subject: Phix for phloating phalse bottom IN HBD 2888, Jeff Grey asked: >Does anyone have solution to a Phil's Phalse Bottom that floats in a >Rubbermaid Cooler ? Back some ago I saw a post that said to screw down >the false bottom. I was thinking about doing that, however I am not sure >that I want to put holes in my cooler. I would also think this might be >a area for bacteria to grow. Any ideas, or is the screws ok ? Well, this was my solution: I use a 10 gallon Gott (same as yours?) from which I removed the spout. I made a bulkhead fitting using a short brass nipple (3/8"NPT, I think) and some big washers I found at the home store. I attached a ball valve on the outside and a NPT-to-3/8" compression fitting on the inside. I then ran a short (3-5") piece of Cu tubing from the compression fitting toward the center of the vessel. A piece of vinyl tubing (3/8" ID) connects the Cu tubing to the hosebarb elbow on the top of the phalse bottom. Because the Cu tubing is rigid and the distance between the Cu tubing and the elbow is short (maybe two inches), the false bottom is not able to move around; it stays on the bottom. This system also allows for easy removal of the phalse bottom for cleaning because the vinyl tubing slides off of the Cu tubing without too much problem. I should also add that I have never had a problem with knocking this tubing apart while stirring the mash. It is quite secure. - --Tad <jw0.genetics.uga.edu> Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 14:59:49 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Edwards <ale at cisco.com> Subject: prounoucing SAAZ Michael Jackson, in his "BeerHunter" video series pronounced it something like ZAHT-zuh, much to my surprise. -Alan Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 15:15:10 -0800 From: "Bryan L. Gros" <gros at bigfoot.com> Subject: Beeston malts? Does anyone have experience with Beeston malts? Specifically the Halcyon Pale? I just bought a sack from a brewpub and I just wonder what others thought of it. thanks. Bryan Gros gros at bigfoot.com Oakland, CA Organizer, 1999 National Bay Area Brew Off http://www.dnai.com/~thor/dboard/babo99.htm Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 18:32:37 EST From: RMerid7682 at aol.com Subject: CO2 Hi all Stopped in at welding supply shop today and checked price on hydrostat test for CO2 cylinders. It's what I should have done the first time instead of relying on memory. The shop I use charges $10.50 for test only, not counting price of refill. I don't know if all types of cylinders are same price or not. Roger Meridith Decatur IL Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 16:11:20 -0800 From: "Bill Splaine" <bsplaine at sonic.net> Subject: Re: Attaching Phils Phalse Bottom Jeff, a thought came to mind. I haven't looked at the false bottom and not sure what the requirements are below it... but I'm a rookie.. so I can say this <G> Have you considered a few small suction cups that are obtainable from aquarium supply stores.. and possibly a bit of stainless wire to attach things with? The suction cups which are used to hold fishtank thermometers in place might be the ticket. Maybe this will be the launching pad for different thinking even if it doesn't work in your situation. Bill Jeff wrote: Does anyone have solution to a Phil's Phalse Bottom that floats in a Rubbermaid Cooler ? Back some ago I saw a post that said to screw down the false bottom. I was thinking about doing that, however I am not sure that I want to put holes in my cooler. I would also think this might be a area for bacteria to grow. Any ideas, or is the screws ok ? Jeff Grey - -- Women will never be equal to men until they can walk down the street with a bald head and a beer gut, and still think they are beautiful. Bill Splaine Healdsburg, CA Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 19:26:38 +0000 From: "Jim Busch" <jim at victorybeer.com> Subject: Re: Victory HopDevil bitter-sweet Rick (desguised as Frederick) writes: <From: "Frederick L. Pauly" <flp2m at avery.med.virginia.edu> <I'm still trying to get that bitter-sweet flavor that I taste in <Hop Pockets and HopDevil. Funny how you chose those two beers, both formulated by Ron Barchet (and Mallett in the formers case). Both of these beers have a considerable degree of hops/hop flavor and resinous hop character. They go about it in a very different fashion, Dominion Brewing using pellets and then dry hopping with whole Hoods and Cascades while Victory Brewing opts for whole hops throughout and utilizes a hop back. <it did not work for me. Now I notice the same type of taste in <Victory HopDevil A good IPA needs to be hoppy throughout but not overpowering in any one area (bitterness, flavor and finish) and you need to lay this on top of a large malt foundation that is not just pale malt and crystal. It also helps to be very careful in wort handling for stability of good malty flavors underneath the big hop blast. BTW, HopDevil's big brother is out now, Old Horizontal at 11%..... <The beer has a very good bitterness and yet a very distinct <sweetness in there behind the bitterness. Thanks for your support and Prost! Jim Busch Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 07:14:59 -0800 From: "Michael Kowalczyk" <mikekowal at megsinet.net> Subject: New BOSS Time to move the wife and kiddies to the burbs. Yup. They all gotta go some time... I'll be moving to New Lenox Illinois. I know there are a lot of Brewers of South Suburbia club members in that area and I had a few questions. 1. What do you do about water? I'm looking for cheap alternatives. I'd rather not buy water. How about mixing? What beer styles can you make without much doctoring (I've found I get my best results from Chicago water with my Porters)? I make mostly ales, with the occasional Bock, or Marzen. 2. Is the water safe to rinse straight from the tap? I usually sanitize with BTF and do a light rinse with Chicago water (40 batches without any problems). Can I continue this practice, or has anyone had bad problems with this method? I'd rather have my first batch in the new home not be contaminated. If I am at risk, what do you do? 3. 2 Words - Cheap equipment. I'm looking for a cheap 15 gallon kettle. I was thinking about cutting a keg and using a propane burner (It's a law that you need a gas grill when you venture west of Western ave, so I will have the tank already). Any leads on cheap equipment in that area? With the setup I have I can mash to a 10 gallon wort of 1056 with only upgrading the kettle. I can replace the othere vessels over time. Any help would be useful. TIA - Mike (since the Cubs are not playing why stay?) in Wrigleyville Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 18:36 PST From: caburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charles Burns) Subject: Another virgin looses cherry, R.I.P. Or instant brewery construction, it just depends on your perspective I guess. Chuck had been working on his new mash tun off an on for a month. Our porter brew was scheduled for Saturday and I called him to make sure he was bringing his mash tun. So he ended up spending a lot of hours Friday evening getting it ready. By Saturday afternoon it was time to mash in and pop this mashtun's cherry. Chuck was so happy he was nearly in tears. We all showed up at Jeff's house under gloomy skies. We had 55 lbs. of grain, 3 mashtuns, 2 kettles and a hot liquor tank. The patio was bare of picnic table. No where did we see any way of getting our gravity powered system working. So we start digging through miscellaneous pieces of lumber and found 4x4's, 1x10's, cinder blocks and a large planter box, and proceeded to build a brewery on the spot. We had 3 mashtuns (all 48-qt rectangular chests), so we put 3 1x10 planks side by side on top of the planter and slid the mashtuns on. They were just a couple inches higher than the kettle tops so it was perfect. Only problem is that they were about 6 inches wider than the planks so they hung over the edges on each side. It was a sight to behold. Then Jeff remembered that he'd bought a Workmate bench 3 years earlier and never taken it out of the box. Well it was the perfect base for building an elevated hot liquor stand. The bench had no top so we laid some 2x4's across it, put the cinder blocks on top of that and some 4x4 blocks on top of that with an old coffee table top to flatten it out on top. Perfect, the hot liquor tank was about 8" above the top of the mashtuns. We were making 12 gallons of Robust Porter and 5 gallons of holiday spiced ale. Twenty-two pounds of grain went into each of 2 mashtuns to split the porter mash and 12 lbs. went into the third. Chuck was actually sobbing with joy, letting out a soft moan as he stirred the grains into the hot liquor. After an hour of mashing in the high 150's we rigged the hot liquor tank with a 3/8" plastic T to feed 2 mashtuns with sparge water and rigged the two mashtuns with an outgoing T to combine the sparged result into a single large kettle. Worked like a champ (from Dangerous Dave's handbook of instant homebrewery construction). Chucks new mashtun had larger holes perforating the incoming water line so we had to crimp the tubing leading to it to slow down the flow of water. We ended up casting out 12.5 gallons of 1.093 Russian Imperial Porter (R.I.P.) into 3 carboys plus the 5 gallons of Holiday Spice. Took about 6 hours and it didn't start raining until we were all done. What a fantastic day, all being topped off by 3 hours of Erin's & Lori's appetizers and then a sitdown Italian home cooked monster meal for 10. And of course, Chocolate Decadence with Lana's homemade gourmet Chocolate Cupcakes and Lori's homemade cheesecake for desert. There's probably a law someplace forbidding this much fun, food and frolicking in one day. Charley (frolicking) in N. Cal Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 20:37:56 -0600 From: "Richard Scott" <rscott57 at flash.net> Subject: ABG schools Happy holidays to all, I would appreciate feedback on the American Brewer's Guild various programs from recent participants. I am particularly interested in the "Advanced Homebrewers Weekend" and the 4 day "Fantasy Camp." Cost versus Benefit versus Fun. Their shameless self-promotion seems to say that everyone had a good time & found it of value. "Annie, I wanna go...Can I, Can I??" (She's a great wife. Really.) Free beer for the first 5 responses. Thanks, Richard Scott Coppell (Dallas) Texas Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 21:57:48 -0600 From: "Rob Jones" <robjones at pathcom.com> Subject: Where are you Lambic Digest? Hi All, I tried to contact the Lambic Digest the other night with no luck. Does it still exist? Anybody have the address? While in a lambic frame of mind, what's the general opinion on storage of commercial, corked lambics? On their side or upright? Rob Jones, Toronto Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 22:57:23 -0500 From: Steve <steves at ro.com> Subject: Questions about pressure canning wort To George De Piro (and everyone else here): You wrote (in HBD #2888) that there is no need to boil the wort before putting it in the jars to go in the pressure cooker. Having prepared all of my starters to date by boiling the wort in an Erlenmeyer flask on the stove, I am experienced with boilovers. And, believing in my grandmother's admonition that you best not let the pressure cooker vent get blocked by stuff like bean (grandmother wouldn't hold with making beer) foam (which looks to me like the foam in a good wort boilover), I worry about clogging up the vent on her old pressure cooker (the weighted regulator, hissy-fit, scary type) by not using pre-boiled (less prone to boilover) wort. Is there less foam production in boiling wort under pressure? Am I being unnecessarily paranoid? As opposed to necessarily paranoid? Do I use too many parentheses? Thanks, Steve Stripling Huntsville, AL Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 22:20:54 +0000 From: Jim Liddil <jliddil at azcc.arizona.edu> Subject: Xantippe What is the HBD coming to? First we have to endure clinitest, then the pronunciation thread (how doe some say gueuze?, faro? lambic? kriek?, framboise? brettanomyces? pediococcus? apoptosis? plambic.... Then we have Zima. At least you can use that to thin out your CAP if it is too heavy. (this is a joke for the humor impair/challenged) > Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 12:40:55 -0600 > From: Paul Kensler <paul.kensler at ibm.net> > Subject: lambic pellicle in bottles > > I somehow knew this would happen, so I probably should have asked this > question _before_ bottling, but... > > I recently bottled a 1-year old lambic, using a little bit of corn sugar > and a fresh yeast (S. Cerevisiae) starter to prime. A couple of weeks > after bottling, the bottles have all developed a thin layer at the top - > it looks just like the pellicle that forms during lambic fermentation. > The lambic is otherwise clear and delicious, with no signs of infection > (other than the desired Brett. and Ped. infections!). Duh. A typical plambic will have a low enough residual extract and pH to keep anything but such microbes from growing. acetobacter can be a problem though. Ask a hard core Bud drinker if it is "delicious" Many people have reported this phenomenon on the Lambic Digest (sort of no existent these days). My suggestion is live with it. This growth is likely due to the head space air. Brett growth is favored under oxidative conditions. You can try to invert the bottles every so often until the pellicle quits reforming. > it drop out? 3. Finally, for you judges out there - given that this is a > lambic (a purposely infected beer), will this bottle pellicle count > against me in competitions? My guess is, "yes, but not as much as it > would if the beer were a Helles Lager". > Why waste good beer on a homebrew competition? Contrary to what George Depiro thinks (sarcasm) I think you will be wasting good beer on judges that may or may not have a clue. Bottle appearance means squat for plambics. I just got a bottle of Hannsens (thanks Dave) and it is cloudy as hell. So is all the Cantillon I have from when WorldWide Imports was still bringing it in. BFD. So relax don't worry have a plambic. But maybe you will get lucky in a competition and end up a ribbon winner. It could happen. :-) also I think that martin is a very knowledgeable and eloqunet writer, but wrt to brewing schools wake up folks. The brewing industry is beginnning to compress. It's a business. And if you plan to make mortgage payments etc then you better realize that indeed AB knows what they are doing. Yes Dr. Lewis is a bit too self assured but I think he is right in that AB is doing something right if they can crank out millions of gallons of flavorless beverage that is always the same and never infected. Can we say the same about many other small brewers who bottle and distribute across the nation? Hair of the Dog sucks by the time it gets to Arizona. George Depior suggested someone spin their hydrometer to degas and remove bubbles. But if they only used the clinitest.......... Jim www.u.arizona.edu/~jliddil Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 05:36:37 GMT From: huskers at voyager.net (Jason Henning) Subject: re: 240V service, I need a neutral Hello- Dana H. Edgell <edgell at cari.net> explains about his condo wiring in 2888: + The circuit breakers are two 30 Amp circuit breakers from adjacent slots + "ganged together".... It looks to me that the water heater is actually + using 240V, with no neutral conductor....The question is, how do I split + the 240V service into two 120V services that I can connect to GFCIs + without a neutral line? I could use the ground as a neutral but is that safe? In theory it would work but is unsafe and illegal. The ground wire would become a current carrier without insulation. The romex jacket isn't enough. Then your 10 to 15 amps too high for the GFIs. A 15A GFI can be hooked up to a 15 or 20A circuit, not a 30A. GFIs don't provide overcurrent protection. A GFI won't trip because 20A+ is running through it. Cheers, Jason Henning Big Red Alchemy and Brewing Clawson, Michigan Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 05:47:02 EST From: DGofus at aol.com Subject: Brewpubs...a dying breed? (Bob Fesmire ) Here in Pennsylvania we are seeing a number of small breweries falling by the wayside. Why? Whats happening? I have been hearing about the "fallout and shakeup" of the breweries for some time now. Is it a matter of getting taps in barrooms and too much competition? Is it the general public tired of paying$3-$4 for a glass of beer? Are we to fear the that the great Stoudts or the wonderful Victory (both in PA) will follow the lead of these other brew places? What a tragedy that would be. Any comments either private or public would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Bob Fesmire Madman Brewery Pottstown, PA Dgofus at aol.com Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 05:55:32 EST From: DGofus at aol.com Subject: "kurds" in my beer!( Bob Fesmire) I have recently switched to all grain! I have had no real big problems, other than my false bottom letting grain through. My problems have risen during fermentation. I have brewed 3 batches. Two batches have had what I will call "kurds", or small, gnarly pea to marble sized objects that appear about 12 to 24 hours after pitching yeast. They seem to hang out at the top of the fermenting beer at first, then during heavy fermentation, they roll all about then most, not all, finally settle out and I rack off of them. What is going on? What are they? I can not recall this happening with my extract brews. Any help would be appreciated. TIA Bob Fesmire Madman Brewery Pottstown,PA Dgofus at aol.com Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 07:59:38 -0800 From: "NFGS" <fjrusso at coastalnet.com> Subject: Recipe exchange format A few readers have joined in on the discussion of a standard template for the exchange of recipes. I would like to see more of you out there get involved. Visit the following site and login and voice in on the issues. Please Homebrew Recipe Exchange Via XML Discussion Web Site http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Facility/8388/ Frank fjrusso at coastalnet.com Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 07:57:47 -0500 From: "Ratkiewich, Peter" <PRATKIEWICH at ci.westport.ct.us> Subject: Light beer fix? On my first attempt at using a Munton's kit I apparently made a pretty stupid error. I added too much water to the extract and ended up with too much volume for the batch size. The beer was to be an Old Conkerwoods Black Ale, and although not listed on the box I believe the OG was supposed to be around 1042-1044. Due to my additional gallon of water the OG ended up at 1034, thus making what will be the first Old Conkerwoods light Black Ale. Thus the question... is there a way of adjusting the gravity after the fact. The batch is currently chugging away through the primary. Can I add some additional extract at this point? Or is this beer simply destined for unwanted guests and Ne'er-do-wells? Brewing on the marsh Pete Ratkiewich Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 08:54:19 -0500 From: RobertJ <pbsys at pbsbeer.com> Subject: re RIMS vs HERMS MaltHound at aol.com wrote I have read repeatedly that some think that the electric element may overheat the wort and prematurely denature enzymes. I do not see how using a heat exchange coil immersed in the HLT would eliminate this possibility. In fact, I would say that it could actually increase the likelyhood of this occuring. - ------ To get as FAST a temp increase with RIMS, in my experience, you would tend to scorch the wort. With typical RIMS ramp speed this probably is not as much of a concern If the heat exchange system is not properly designed I would agree, you could overheat the recirculating wort. Coil design and ability to control flowing wort temp insures that HERMS does not overheat the wort. - -- In my electric RIMS, the wort exiting the heater chamber is only a few degrees higher than the wort at the entrance. While I don't have a HERMS<tm> type set-up to play with, I would imagine based on my experiences using an immersion chiller that the wort exiting the heat exchanger would be very close to the temperature of the water in which it is immersed. - ---- Not necessarily, with the HERMS heat exchanger and no other control, wort exits at 158-160 with HLT at 170 and mash at 150. Higher HLT temps, at the end of the temp increase, would cause a higher recirculating temp, only in the small portion of the wort going through the heat exchanger, which is controlled by valving. - -- Since one of the supposed advantages of HERMS is faster temperature step ramping, one might imagine that the HLT is held at a fairly high temperature to accomplish this. Unless the temperature of the HLT is regulated and monitored closely, it would appear that more thermal stress would be placed on the enzymes via the heat exchanger than with an electric heater chamber. - ---- HLT temp should not require carfull monitoring (it doesn't change very rapidly and only downward) If a quick increase (4 deg/min) is desired heat HLT to 180. It will drop to 170 quickly (recirc temp won't be above 145 when you start.) As mash approaches 150, valves control recirc temp. to maximize temp increase during last 2 mins. Total time is about 8.5 mins for 13 gal of 1.048 OG. Recirc temp doesn't go above 158-160. Keep in mind, HERMS was developed to provide a manually controlled, alternative to RIMS, offering many of the advantages. (For people like me that are electically iliterate) Bob Precision Brewing Systems URL http://www.pbsbeer.com Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 08:57:56 -0500 From: "Matthew J. Harper" <matth at progress.com> Subject: Re: Phil's Non Phloating false bottom I concur with Rick Wood and his assessment of Phil's very nice piece of work in the digest today's Digest (not HBD, just The Digest. :-) # 2889. I've been using a Phil's Phalse Bottom in my Gott cooler for several years now and I've *never* had a problem with it floating. From the get go I've used a small piece of tubing from the bottom to a small tube of copper. The copper then fits into a rubber stopper (size that fits a 12 oz beer bottle) that's stuck into the end of my outlet valve in the cooler. This setup has worked like a champ since day one, so I've spent my few Brew Dollars (newly formed currency perhaps?) on other stuff, like a dedicated brewing area in the basement! Wahoo! All you brewers lamenting brewing in the kitchen putting off a dedicated area; go for it. The best move I've ever made. Not having to compete with wife, kids or food while I brew has made the process much easier, not to mention fewer 'Oh Crap' utterances and, I believe, better results. Sorry, I digress... Phil does take unfair criticism (no relation, yada yada). I cannot help but wonder how many folks are like myself and Rick, satisfied with the product and just keeping a good thing to ourselves? :-) -Matth Matthew J. Harper Principal Software Engineer Progress Software Corp. Nashua, New Hampshire matth at progress.com Sometimes you're the windshield - Sometimes you're the bug Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 09:08:23 -0500 From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net> Subject: 240V service, I need a neutral 1. Evidently someone cheated. I would check local code but I don't think it is legal to use 2 wire + neutral for 230 2 phase incoming power. The builder may be outside of code and may be responsible for rewiring the incoming wiring to your condo. Check local code before calling the dogs. 2. In spite of this you already have 2 120 VAC lines in your home. Black to bare and white to bare. The bare wire is your neutral not your ground. Ground is "GROUND" as in DIRT and is attached to the breaker box itself from the grounding stake outside your home. There should be a grounding strap or a copper wire running to the electrical box, the grounding buss, on one end and a steel post outside on the other. This is usually not inside the service conduit. 3. Check at the switches and outlets in the house and check the breaker box. Are the standard 120 VAC breakers wired with 2 wire + ground. The bare ground wires from these should go to a grounding buss in the box. If this is the case then you have neutrals and grounds. 4. GFCI's DON'T measure the current to ground. There is no way to measure the ground fault current. The GROUND FAULT CURRENT is assumed from the currents that are measurable. If I am standing in a bath tub and part of the current from a radio courses through my body, into the water, through the plumbing and into the ground, how do I measure that. Where would you suggest I put a current meter? On your toe or in the plumbing? GFCI's actually measure the difference in current between the incoming line and the out going line. As long as there is no short to a ground like the water in the bath tub or your warm little body, the current in both legs, the hot 120 and neutral, is equal. 1 amp in, 1 amp out. There is no loss in current. What the GFCI measures is the difference in the CURRENT, the flow of electrons, not the voltage, between the hot and the neutral. If you don't have a good concept of electricity, imagine a hose with water running through it. As long as I don't have a hole in the hose, all of the water that goes into the hose on one end comes out the other end. Even if I use something to restrict the flow of water the same is true, it just flows slower. If I punch a hole in the side of the hose some water will leak out. I could tell if there was a leak by precisely measuring the water at each end of the hose and comparing them. If they are different, even the least bit, there is a leak. A ground fault is like a leak in the hose. Like water, electrons are matter, they don't just leak out into space. All I have to do is make sure that all of the electrons that go in one end, come out the other. If I miss a few, then I assume a GROUND FAULT and the interrupt blows. Electronically, that description is a bit simplistic but it is theoretically complete. So, what I am assuming is that you actually DO have a ground to your in house wiring. The ground strap to the breaker box fills that bill. The bare wire on in the 240 triplet is actually neutral, not the ground. I also bet you have grounds to your house wiring. If you don't, all you have to do is run a 2 wire + ground wire from the box to a new outlet and make sure you have the ground (bare) connected to the box grounding buss. Even if you don't have the ground, you have a hot and neutral and the GFCI should still work properly. I bet I know why your neighbors are complaining, you haven't invited enough of them over to test your wares. Or maybe it's the little lady down the street who doesn't drink but does gossip. Good Luck...... >1) bare copper: presumably ground >2) black wire: 119.9 V to ground >3) "white wire": covered with black tape to appear black 118.9 V to ground >Wires 2&3 are 210V w.r.t. each other. >The question is, how do I split the 240V service into two 120V services >that >I can connect to GFCIs without a neutral line? >I could use the ground as a neutral but is that safe? Wouldn't then the >return current from my 120V circuits (up to 30Amps) be electrically >connected to things such as appliance housings ? (The water heater is the >only thing on these circuit breakers). >And if I could use the ground for the return current, what would I use to >ground my HLT etc? Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 09:24:58 -0500 From: Seth Goodman <sethgoodman at 110.net> Subject: Re:240V service, I need a neutral In HBD #2888, Dana H. Edgell wrote: > The problem began when I actually examined the wiring the other day. Here is > what I found. The service into the electrical box consisted of an insulated > cable with three wires inside > 1) bare copper: presumably ground > 2) black wire: 119.9 V to ground > 3) "white wire": covered with black tape to appear black 118.9 V to ground. > > Wires 2&3 are 210V w.r.t. each other. > > The circuit breakers are two 30 Amp circuit breakers from adjacent slots > "ganged together". > > It looks to me that the water heater is actually using 240V, with no neutral > conductor. > This is wired just fine, and it is indeed a 240V circuit with *no* neutral, but *with* ground - SOP for water heaters (no neutral is required - see previous HBDs on the 240V GFCI issue - pop quiz tomorrow :-)). A 120V/30A circuit would be good for nothing more than a large coffee pot; even 240V/30A sounds a little small. No doubt the water heater is using the *full rated capacity* of this circuit - you cannot legally or safely tap into it for your HLT. Sorry. Perhaps your Condo Association can be persuaded that your Propane burner is no more dangerous than anybody's grill, as suggested by John Schnupp in HBD #2889. Disclaimer - I'm not an electrician, I just play one here at the "miswired" house. :-) Cheers, Seth Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 09:45:59 -0500 From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net> Subject: Re: Old Style; lambic >Is the Belgian fad reaching an end? Will I have to live without >Cantillon??? I just learned that the distributor of Celis in Indiana, dropped the product. Perhaps the fad is over but Belgian ales will live on. Especially in Belgium where that IS beer. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 08:59:05 -0600 From: scott zimmerle <szimmerle at mediaone.net> Subject: amber ale <1st post alert> I know that this is probably a dumb question, but what, exactly, is an amber ale? I have read that the term "amber" is overused and vague. I also have the impression that (what commercially goes by the term) amber ale (that is, American Amber) is merely pale ale with crystal malt added. But if that's true, then what's amber malt used for? Is amber ale merely ale made with amber malt? If so, then what happens to THAT when you add crystal malts? Or is the style not that precisely defined? Scott "rhymes with Dieterle's" Zimmerle, Elmhurst Illinois. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 10:57:05 -0500 From: "John A. MacLaughlin" <jam at clark.net> Subject: Re: 240V service, I need a neutral In HBD #2888 Dana H. Edgell <edgell at cari.net> writes in part: >It looks to me that the water heater is actually using 240V, with no >neutral conductor. Exactly right, and exactly as it should be. A water heater contains nothing that needs to connect to neutral. >. . . how do I split the 240V service into two 120V services that >I can connect to GFCIs without a neutral line? You don't, if you are wise. In fact, if you are wise you don't change this circuit at all; it's just fine as it is. Adding even one more load to it will violate the National Electrical Code because the existing load (the water heater) requires more than half the rated circuit current. To brew electrically with reasonable safety you really need an additional circuit for your brewing equipment, and you really need the help of some- one who has the skills of a competent electrician to assure that the new wiring is adequate and properly installed. Taking shortcuts may endanger the lives and property of everyone in your building. I hate to seem negative but I really see only three practical alternatives: 1. As John Schnupp <John_E_Schnupp at amat.com> pointed out in HBD #2889, your cooker is no more dangerous than the much commoner grills and barbecues. Maybe you can persuade your condo association of that, with the help of a local fire marshal perhaps. Of course, if they forbid all open fires that probably won't help. 2. You may be able to get the electrical work you need done for less than full price through a local homebrew club's contacts, for example, or a homebrew store's. 3. Doing extract batches on the kitchen stove may not be attractive to you but it beats being limited to drinking manufactured swill. Best wishes, JAM Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 11:03:49 -0500 From: "Kirk Harralson" <kwh at ismd.ups.com> Subject: Floating air stones / shops I recently bought one of the oxygentation systems that use the small O2 tanks. I used it as directed; and, as I was timing how long I had the valve open, I noticed the SS air stone practically floating on top of the wort. I tried to encourage it to sink to the bottom, but with no luck. I doubt I got much oxygen into the wort. So, what is the best way around this? I've thought about buying some SS washers to put over the tube near the bottom to weight it down, but I'm not crazy about that idea. Anybody else encounter this? Second, with all the recent posts from this area, can anyone recommend a good brew shop in the northern Maryland area? The ones I've been going to don't keep a good stock on hand (particularly yeast and specialty grains), and I would prefer not to mail order. Kirk Harralson Bel Air, Maryland Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 08:37:18 -0800 (PST) From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com> Subject: Re: modeling grain > Guy Gregory confirms with his use of MODFLOW that Darcy*s law is > applicable to evaluating fluid flow through a grain bed. > > Paul Niebergall No-one has ever doubted that porosity must be accounted for when simulating the grainbed flow. The difference is between *modeling* the flow, and calculating a full 3-D simulation in glorious 64-bit precision. Modeling involves making order of magnitude estimates based on governing principles in an attempt to find a simple algebraic model, such as the R^3 law that John's experiment exposed. Most homebrewers don't have access to commercial groundwater simulation software, and a simple algebraic model would be sufficient for playing with manifold designs. -SM- Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 12:48:07 EST From: MaltyDog at aol.com Subject: Label Help Just a quick thank you for everyone that e-mailed me regarding labels. The most common suggestion to attach the labels was to use a glue stick. In addition, brushing on the milk with a brush or sponge, rather than immersing the labels was suggested, as was Elmer's Glue and envelope sealer and preformated labels. To avoid bleeding, using high quality deskjet paper and spraying the labels with a fixative spray (variously matte, glossy and acrylic) was suggested and using an ALPS waterproof printer. I will be testing out various suggestions, and go with what works for me the best. Again, thanks for the help! Bill Coleman MaltyDog at aol.com Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 12:26:28 -0600 From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald) Subject: RE: Does Oxygenation with O2 increase lag time? >>>> From: "William W. Macher" <macher at telerama.lm.com> .... I do not recall seeing mention of oxygenation with pure O2 (as pure as welding O2 may be) leading to lengthened lag times. Is this normal? Have others using O2 had the same experience? My speculation is that with much more oxygen in the wort, the yeast are going through more growth phases, and consequently the elapsed time between pitching and production of CO2 has increased. <<<< Recently our club had a guest speaker, Henryck Orlick, Brewmaster; Abita Brewing C0, who gave us some tips on yeast in brewing. He suggested that air was better than pure O2 because air contains nitrogen, and it was his advice that the nitrogen is used by the yeast to some degree as nutrient, thus air is better, in his opinion, than pure 02. Ron Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu Return to table of contents
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