HOMEBREW Digest #2928 Fri 15 January 1999

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		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com

  SG rise for bottling (Rod Prather)
  Attenuation/Bleach (AJ)
  home malting - bad info (Clifton Moore)
  Batch still bubbling after 13 days (samuel c horton)
  Hydrogen beer; St. Pat's bitching (Steve Jackson)
  brewing equipment (DGofus)
  Barley wine (Bob Fesmire) (DGofus)
  TN-HBoY, Mash Improvement, Wristwatches (Clint Thessen)
  slow starter (John Simonetta)
  High Temps and Plastic Pipe (CPVC and PVC) ("Peter J. Calinski")
  Re: Liquors - information (Jeff Renner)
  malt diastatic power and Bourbon (Jeff Renner)
  Brew Pubs in Sarasota and Tampa (Manbeck, Brad J.)" <BJM at roisysinc.com>
  starters (Vachom)
  St. Pats Counterflow Chiller ("Mark Kirby")
  Re: Diacetyl Rest (Jeff Renner)
  Yeast/sucrose, RE: Infection = low FG and Slow Starter and Pix of a big brew (Joe Rolfe)
  RE: rec.crafts.brewing ("Kelly")
  H2 in Beer (David Whitman)
  No! Not another Pat's Post! ("Andrew Avis")
  Re: US Grown European hops (Andrew Smith)
  Mazer Cup Reminder, Prize Update ("Ken Schramm")
  Re: Diacetyl Rest (John Murphy)
  Decoction Main Mash Temp. Schedules (Jim Bentson)
  "Homebrewery Design Pages" Updated. (Jean-Sebastien Morisset)
  Pyramid Alehouse ESB ("Jay Krause")
  RE: Brewer's Pics (Bob Sheck)
  Pump with Rubbermaid (Doug Moyer)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:05:11 -0500 From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net> Subject: SG rise for bottling How much should the SG increase when charging for bottle conditioning. How much does bottle conditioning increase the ABV. I just bottled a batch and mesured the SG. It went from about 1.015 to 1.019 or 1.020. Seemed rather high for the addition of only 1 1/4 cup of DME. Not really a problem, just curiosity. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 05:34:06 +0000 From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com> Subject: Attenuation/Bleach Jorge Blasig asks about attenuation. Attenuation is a measure of the reduction in the "fermentables" content of the wort as the yeast have at it expressed as a percent: Attenuation =100 [P(begin) - P(end)]/P(begin) Thus if a wort is 10% fermentables by weight prior to fermentation and 2% by weight afterwards the attenuation is 100*(10-2)/10 = 80%. To measure it we simply check the specific gravity of the wort at the beginning and end of fermentation using a hydrometer which reads degrees Plato (% sugar by weight) directly or by converting specific gravity readings to Plato or by subtracting 1 from the specific gravities before taking the ratio and ignoring the small error this introduces. The result is the "apparent" attenuation. Apparent attenuation does not account for the presence of protein (and protein fragments) or alcohol in beer and wort. Protein and FAN are, of course, consumed to some extent by the fermentation and their reduction causes a reduction in specific gravity. As the Plato scale is actually based on pure sucrose solution it does not completely accurately reflect the protein reduction but since protein content change is quite small relative to sugar content change this does not adversely effect the value of the method. Of greater significance is the alcohol which is substantially less dense than water. The presence of even relatively small amounts of alcohol depress the specific gravity appreciably. To get around this problem one removes the alcohol by boiling before measuring the specific gravity. The ASBC procedure does this as part of alcohol determination. The procedure (caveat: from memory) is: 0. Degas beer, bring to 20C and measure specific gravity. 1. Measure 100 ml of the beer into a volumetric flask 2. Transfer to a 500 mL distilling flask 3. Use 50 mL of distilled water in several portions to rinse the volumetric flask and add the rinsings to the distilling flask. 4. Distill until almost 100 mL of distillate has been collected. (At this point the distillate is presumed to contain all the alcohol. It is made up to 100 mL and its specific gravity measured from which ABV and ABW are obtained from tables). 5. Transfer back to the volumetric flask. 6. Rinse the distilling flask with small portions of distilled water and add the rinsings to the volumetric flask. 7. Make up to 100 mL. (At this point the volumetric flask contains all the non volatile dissolved matter in the beer (sugars, proteins) but no alcohol (or other volatiles) in the same volume as the original sample.) 8. Mix thoroughly, cool to 20 C measure specific gravity. Obviously you don't need to do the distillation if you are not equipped and it's probably illegal anyway. You can do the boiling in a beaker equally well. This specific gravity is used in the same formula (above) to give the "real" or "true" attenuation. The apparent and real attenuations can be substantially different. A beer with an apparent attenuation of 80-85% may have a real attenuation of only 60% (where do you think that beer gut comes from?). As you can see, measurement of apparent attenuation is a snap and true attenuation a real PITA. Most people never bother with true attenuation for this reason. The difference between true and apparent depend on the wort composition and while you could probably come up with some single factor which gets you a reasonable true attenuation number from a real one there would certainly be cases where it would be quite far off. Why does one really care? We generally look at apparent attenuation as a means of determining that the fermentation is complete (gentlemen: remember your agreement) and at the level that we expect based on experience (or the experience of others) for a given recipe. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Jack Schmidling had a comment about effective bleach concentration. I haven't seen anything about this recently so here are a couple of thoughts. The effectiveness of bleach depends on contact time, temperature, concentration, pH, type of organism and desired log kill ratio for that organism. The following data, taken from the water treatment industry, give values for Giardia which aren't beer or wort spoilers (though they can spoil your day) so use these to appreciate the variability. The absolute numbers are probably roughly representative of values for brewery organisms. Log kill of 1 means 10% of cells survive the treatment, 2 means 1%, 3 means .1% and so on. Ct is the product of available chlorine concentration in mg/L and t in minutes. log 50F 77F kill pH Ct Ct 3 6 87 29 mg-minutes/L 3 7 124 41 3 8 182 61 3 9 265 88 Thus it is clear that low pH (which converts charged OCL- ions into uncharged HOCL molecules which are better able to penetrate the slime coating of bacteria) and high temperature can effectively reduce the required Ct. Household bleach is 5 "trade percent". This means that 28 ml of bleach (about an ounce) contains (0.05)(28) = 1.4 grams of chlorine. Added to 1 gallon of water (3.78 liters) gives a concentration of 370 mg/L. This is a very strong solution which at pH 9 would require less than a minute to achieve a log kill of 3 against Giardia even if the solution were a cold 50F but only a quarter of a minute at 77F. An issue with household bleach is that it contains lots of lye which stabilizes it for shipment and storage but results in high pH. I'd guess that a dilution of one Oz/gal would probably result in a pH of near 9. Hypochlorite is most effective at pH 5 or so. One Oz/gal at pH adjusted to near 5 should certainly do the job against most brewery organisms (except, I'll bet, Pediococcus) in a matter of seconds. This does not mean I think you should dump acid into your bleach solution unless you know what you are doing and can measure the pH (papers would be fine for this). Using warm or even hot water should be a big help. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 02:08:40 -0800 From: Clifton Moore <cmoore at gi.alaska.edu> Subject: home malting - bad info <fontfamily><param>Chicago</param><smaller>Dick, Thank you for coming to my defense in pointing out some of the less than helpful responses I got from my malting inquiry. I think that the explanation is that most people do not read HBD very carefully, and for that matter many of the posts are not constructed with great clarity. I am happy to report that I have gotten no rude flames from my post, and some respondents were able to relay ideas from personal experience. You are correct in your reading. I arranged with three farmers in different regions of interior Alaska, to grow Harrington malting barley seed that I purchased from Canada. The largest planting went into the ground late, suffered a dry spring, and a wet summer. The yield was good, but the seed was too green and wet at harvest to consider for malting. Smaller plots in Delta and Fairbanks yielded the bulk of what I am experimenting with. My objective is to be able to malt enough of it that I can persuade one of the two Fairbanks micro breweries to make a batch. An all-Alaskan-malt seasonal should go over well I would think. Due largely to economies of scale, the economic prospects of a malting industry in interior Alaska are admittedly bleak, but I have taken this on as a long term project, and feel little dissuaded by the limited success to date. I should note, that despite the troubles with germination percentages and synchrony, I have managed to produce some very nice ale from what was grown in a heap on my garage floor. It took all my brewing skill to get a clean mash, but the finished product is as easy to drink as anything I have ever produced. This surprised me, as I had suspected that the approximately 25% dud (non-germinating) grains would have spoiled the flavor of the finished product, but this was just not the case. The diastatic power was low probably due to my inexperience with identifying conversion degree. I can offer that I feel that crushing the seed between fingers is a better way to evaluate conversion than the often noted "achrospire length = 75% seed length". Conversion causes a distinct softening of the tissues that is easily identified tactually with a little experience. For those who are familiar with growing barley, it is much like the "soft doe" stage of seed development, if I remember the term correctly. The fully converted malt is almost like a drop of heavy cream when crushed from its coat. Then there may have been some enzyme damage done when I used my converted keg mash tun, fitted with a muffin fan, as a kiln. Not exactly what I consider good temperature control. It was here on HBD some time back that I remember a poster asserting that the secret to malting is in the steep. At the time this statement sounded unlikely and counter-intuitive. I am at this stage a clear believer that identifying a steeping schedule tailored to the specific batch of barley is crucial to malting. It is unfortunate that malting is such a bastion of proprietary skills. I understand now the reason why malting is largely a segregated industry from brewing. Malting is harder than brewing. I am also working on a model of malting as the first industrial scale food-processing endeavor ever invented by humans. I have heard that olives have great claims to antiquity, but surely malt must predate pickled olives. Clifton Moore cmoore at gi.alaska.edu </smaller></fontfamily> Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 06:14:06 est From: shorton at juno.com (samuel c horton) Subject: Batch still bubbling after 13 days Started a extract batch on Jan. 1,1999 and 13 days later its still bubbling...Took the lid off to check what's going on and there are little floaties on the surface...Don't know if its bad or what can someone help me with this problem. Private emails are welcome SAMUEL KD4ESV EL87RL BRADENTON FLORIDA ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 04:53:46 -0800 (PST) From: Steve Jackson <stevejackson at rocketmail.com> Subject: Hydrogen beer; St. Pat's bitching I was going to sit out both of these topics, but seeing as how no one has addressed the fallacy of the first, and how I'm feeling feisty about the second, here goes: The hydrogen beer story is a brand-spanking-new urban legend that has traveled an amazing number of miles in the short time it's been circulating. One thing that people forget when reading this is that hydrogen is incredibly flammable (anyone remember the Hindenburg?) Also, the flame is invisible, defeating the whole purpose of lighting the hydrogen beer belch on fire for all to see and marvel at. As for St. Pat's, can't we just drop this already? Some people like St. Pat's, some people don't. Big surprise. This is how capitalism works, folks. I happen to detest Wal-Mart and wouldn't set foot in one unless, maybe, my life somehow depended on it. Obviously, lots of people disagree. But fortunately, I can run to Target instead. Same deal with St. Pat's. If you like it, fine; keep shopping there. If you don't, fine; shop somewhere else. I do know how to use my page-down key, but my finger's getting tired <rant mode off> -Steve in Indianapolis. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 08:00:47 EST From: DGofus at aol.com Subject: brewing equipment I need some advice. I am a new (4 batches) all grain brewer. I have converted kegs as mash/lauter tuns and kettles. My pronlem is that I must work on the gravity system and lifting the kegs high enough with water is a bit too much. I also am running into the problem of temperature control, the winter cold makes temp regulation a problem with these kegs. Would I do better to get two gott(rubbermaid) coolers for the mash/ lauter tuns for easier lifting and temp control, or maybe a pump system and some thermal type wraps to keep temps were they need to be. Any suggestions or advice would be greatly appreciated. Bob Fesmire Madman Brewery Pottstown, PA Dgofus at aol.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 08:03:30 EST From: DGofus at aol.com Subject: Barley wine (Bob Fesmire) I am a new all grain brewer and would like to try my hand at a Barley wine. Any proven recipes or advice would be appreciated. Thanks. Bob Fesmire Madman Brewery Pottstown, PA Dgofus at aol.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 08:10:22 EST From: FLHNEM at aol.com Subject: FERMENTATION LAG I recently brewed my fourth extract brew. I broke the yeast packet 36 hours b4. The average temp in my house is 58-60. I only run the heat in the morning and again in evening for a couple hrs. There was no noticable change in volume of yeast so I first pitched it into a quart of 80 degree wort for 3 hrs b4 dumping that into the 5 gal. It was 2 !/2 days before I had active fermentation. My questions are this; What can I do to get yeast going quicker? Swich to lager yeast? Can I place the packet at the foot of my waterbed or is 90 degrees too hot? I am also unclear as to what if any harm is done by this delay. Is it just the potential for wild yeast to take over or is there more to it? Thanks. Fra nk Hight Worce ster, Ma Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 07:31:09 -0600 From: Clint Thessen <cthessen at mdc.com> Subject: TN-HBoY, Mash Improvement, Wristwatches Hi Folks, I've been reading the HBD for about two years. I've also been reading all the back issues. I'm up to OCT96 right now... whew, just about finished. It's pretty interesting to observe the dynamics of this digest over the past few years. The more things change the more they remain the same... Anyway, Chuck Bernard asked how he could "level" the playing field for the TN Hombrewer of the Year Award. Well, not having administered this type of competition, did you think of just averaging the scores? By calculating the average pts/entry you will be eliminating the numerical advantage that some brewers would have by entering alot of competitions. The person with highest pts/entry for the year would be the person who consistently brews and scores well. The minimum entry requirements to qualify would eliminate the inconsistent brewer. Something to think about. I've done 6 all-grain batches so far. I really like doing it. Are my beers that much better... well once I get more experience I'm sure they will. All the batches have the same grain bill and water treatment. The only differences have been hops and yeast. I've been wanting to perfect (at least to my senses) a style at time. My first 5 batches I only got about 25 pts-gal/lb doing two step mashes and a mashout with about a 30 min sparge. I was dissatisfied with that performance so I read a little Fix and decided to do the 40-60-70 mash schedule plus mashout AND increase sparge time to about an hour. Well, this last batch I got just over 31 pts-gal/lb. Now I'm happy with that performance. We'll see how well the beer tastes in a couple of weeks. So, was the mash schedule of the increase in sparge time. Maybe a combination of both I don't know... but I'll be doing this way in future. Just a datapoint. Now for something not-so-completely different. My Mickey Mouse wristwatch that I've had for about 10 yrs is dead. I'm in the hunt for another watch. I would like to get a watch that has some brewery logo on it or be beer related somehow. Can anyone point me to such an animal or does something like this even exist? I checked the Paulaner website and they don't sell watches. Thanks. Some or all responses can be to my E-Mail address or posted. Prost Clint Thessen O'Fallon, MO clinton.a.thessen at boeing.com (Apprx 550 miles SSW of Jeff Renner) Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 08:31:58 -0500 From: John_Simonetta at ittsheraton.com (John Simonetta) Subject: slow starter In Jan 13 HBD Bill Jankowski wrote about a slow starter. Bill, I started using liquid yeast about six months ago, when I had some infections using dry yeast. In my most recent batch, a barleywine, I used Wyeast 1056. Prior to this batch I had been stepping up the yeast starter once, on the advice of my homebrew club members, and this did give me quicker results and less lag. With the 1056 in the barleywine, I happened to get the flu on brew day, and managed to drag myself off the couch to repitch the yeast to another starter. So, in effect I used three starters, adding the results from the previous to the new wort for each starter. On my new brewday, the yeast was at full krausen in my 1/2 gallon growler. I pitched the yeast to the wort at about 8:00p.m. The next morning, it was in full swing. This is the shortest lag time I've ever had. As much of a pain as this sounds like it was, the end result was what I had been looking for. The idea, I'm told, is to get the yeast count to outnumber the bacterial nasties. By the way, you can reuse the yeast a number of times by following the instructions on yeast washing on the Wyeast web page. Sorry, I don't have the address, but I'm sure a net search will get you there. Sorry for the long response, but you happened to hit me at the right time. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 08:53:15 -0500 From: "Peter J. Calinski" <PCalinski at iname.com> Subject: High Temps and Plastic Pipe (CPVC and PVC) Just catching up. I have seen some discussion about using CPVC at high temperatures. This is just a data point for information purposes. I have been using plain PVC (not CPVC)in my brew pot many months. I won't go into the reasons here but if anyone is interested they can email me. Basically I have two or three 18" pieces of 1-1/2 inch PVC standing in my brew pot during the entire boil (60+ min.). I have not noticed any appreciable adverse effects. The pipes are taking on a slight curvature or bend because they are not exactly vertical in the pot. The bending is barely noticeable. I have, on occasion, removed one from the pot and tested to see how soft or "bendy" it was. It seemed as hard as when at room temperature but as I said, they are assuming a slight bend so there must be some softening. I must point out that the pipes are not subjected to any pressure from the inside out. They are empty (except for air. The pressure is from the wort pushing on the outside of the pipes. As I said, just a data point for consideration. Pete Calinski East Amherst NY Near Buffalo NY 0 Degrees 30.21 Min North, 4 Degrees 05.11 Min. East of Jeff Renner Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:48:35 -0500 From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu> Subject: Re: Liquors - information Ted McIrvine <McIrvine at ix.netcom.com> wrote: >2) Most commercial Scotches are blended from several distillery runs of >Scotch. A single malt Scotch is an unblended Scotch whiskey, which is >(like all Scotch whiskey) distilled from Scotch ale. Well, not exactly. Most commercial Scotch whiskies are "blended Scotch," which is a blend of Scotch malt whiskies and neutral grain spirits, which can be (and is) made from cheaper grains other than barley malt and distilled at a higher proof, so it is flavorless. Jackson says that these blended Scotches commonly contain about 40% malt whiskey. There are some all malt whiskies that are not single malts - they are called vatted malts. Scotch whiskey is not really made from Scotch ale as such - no hops are used for the wort. Oddly enough, the distillers are not particularly fussy about yeast and typically use dry yeast. Many Bourbon distillers are more fussy and culture their own yeast. >4) Rum is made from fermented sugar cane which is then distilled. Again, not exactly. It is fermented from fermented molasses, which is a byproduct of cane sugar refining. The rum industry grew out of the possibility of making money from this byproduct. Do you remember your 11th grade American history class and the rum/molasses/slave trade, the triangular trade route and the Molasses Act? Ahh, brewing, it ties into everything. Jeff -=-=-=-=- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 10:03:05 -0500 From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu> Subject: malt diastatic power and Bourbon The recent topic of liquor reminds me of something I recently discovered. A typical Bourbon grain bill might be 70+% corn, 10-15% rye and/or wheat, and 8-15% malted barley. It astounds me that as little as 8% malt (example, Jack Daniel's, not a Bourbon but the point remains) can convert 92% unmalted grain. I don't know if distiller's malt is greatly different from brewer's malt. I'm sure it is 6-row. In making Bourbon (and Tennessee whiskey, it's sibling), the corn is boiled, sometimes with the wheat and/or rye, sometimes these are added later in the boil, then this is cooled and the malt is added to reach a temperature of low 150sF for conversion. There is no sparging or lautering; the grains are left in the wort for the fermentation. I don't know if this has anything to do with the high conversion or not. Jeff -=-=-=-=- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 9:11 -0600 From: "BJM (Manbeck, Brad J.)" <BJM at roisysinc.com> Subject: Brew Pubs in Sarasota and Tampa I am going to be in the Sarasota and Tampa Florida area in February. I am looking for suggestions for brewpubs or microbrews to sample while there. After another 5 inches of snow last night here in Minneapolis, Florida is looking pretty good right about now. Thanks in advance for the input. Private emails are welcomed. Brad Manbeck Burlap Shack Brewery bjm at roisysinc.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:48:00 -0600 From: Vachom <MVachow at newman.k12.la.us> Subject: starters In HBD #2927 Bill asks for advice on building yeast starters. First, a 36 hour lag time is quite long and creates all of the same potential problems as long lag times in fermentation of the beer you're actually going to brew. Here's my advice: first, check the date stamped on the Wyeast and give the smack pack a day for every month old to activate--give yourself 12 hours or so extra as this formula isn't always perfect, and don't buy anything older than 3 months if you have a choice. Second, let the smack pack expand beyond an inch. I let mine swell until it feels like a properly inflated beachball. Third, instead of building a quart starter right off, I recommend building a two-step starter so that you end up with a quart starter for a five gallon batch of ale. Let the activity on the first pint slow before pitching the second pint. If you really plan ahead, you can even 2 step the starter to a quart, let the yeast settle out, decant the DME beer, then 8 hours or so before your brew, add a pint of new wort to the starter to get it activated again. This last step, of course, is costly and irksome in particular to all grain brewers who are otherwise happy they're no longer spending the kind of money they spent when brewing exclusively with extract. I follow this procedure only when I'm brewing something other than my "house" beers. Fourth and last, you don't mention your aeration procedures. After chilling I shake the gallon cider jug I use for 4 minutes or so, then give it another shake or swirl every time I pass by for the rest of the day's waking hours. Following this procedure, I typically get activity within 3-5 hours, especially when I can get Wyeast less than a month old. Happy brewing, Mike New Orleans, LA Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:02:43 -0500 From: "Mark Kirby" <mkirby at wfubmc.edu> Subject: St. Pats Counterflow Chiller THIS IS NOT ANOTHER SLAM ON ST. PATS!!!!! THIS POST IS REGARDING OPINIONS ON A SPECIFIC PRODUCT!! I am about to order a counterflow chiller from St. Pats but would like some feedback from people who have the same chiller (or one similar) as to how well they work...the one I'm looking at is the one that is encased in PVC pipe. Their online catalog says it is great for systems with 3/8" ball valves, which is what I use on my converted kegs. St. Pats is the only vendor I have seen that carries this kind of chiller, and I like the look of the design. Price doesn't seem too high either (at least in my opinion), but it seems it would work slightly different than the copper-in-hose type that every other vendor seems to carry. Any satisfied customers out there? Is the efficiency similar to the more traditional style counterflow chillers? Do other vendors carry similarly styled chillers? Thanks, Todd Kirby Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:00:07 -0500 From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu> Subject: Re: Diacetyl Rest John Adsit <jadsit at jeffco.k12.co.us> wrote: >I fermented in a refrigerator at about 46-48 degrees >for two weeks, then racked to secondary and continued for 9 more days. >It looked pretty quiet, and the color was wonderful, with a small rim of >white foam. I placed the secondary in a crawl space at about 58-60 >degrees for the diacetyl rest. Last night, after 24 hours, I saw that >fermentation had been reactivated significantly, a blip about every four >seconds. This morning it has slowed to ten seconds. > >Is this all normal? What's next? Yep, sounds normal. Three things might be happening. It might actually not be fermenting but rather warming and expanding, which would be pushing bubbles out. Second, as it warms, it can hold less CO2, which will come out of solution - again more bubbles. Third, it is also likely (since it still had a rim of foam), that there is a little extract left and the warmer temperature has sped the rate of fermentation. That is fine. The yeast will reduce the levels of diacetyl as it ferments. I like to begin lagering while there is still a very little extract left to keep the yeast going in the lagering for a little while. Of course, it's going to take a while for that thermal mass to warm up to diacetyl rest temperatures, and also then to drop. I suspect it's time to start dropping the temperature for lagering. Since I don't typically do a diacetyl rest, I go only 2F/day, but that will take an awful long time from your higher temp. I think that a faster drop shouldn't hurt. I think the 2F/day may be overcautious. Jeff -=-=-=-=- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:17:59 -0500 From: Joe Rolfe <rolfe at sky.sky.com> Subject: Yeast/sucrose, RE: Infection = low FG and Slow Starter and Pix of a big brew Another data point for long term storage of yeast samples under 10% sucrose: two more yeast have come back from the dead one from 1994, another from 1991 both are from Euro-breweries on the bad side tho less than good luck with WY2206, DeKoninick, Le Cheval Blanc, UniBrou(Maudite) still have some time left for these before I chuck them... Mark asked about "unwanted bugs" causing low fg: Yes it can cause low finals, it depends what type you have. Some wild strains can go quite low, usally if the beer has really gotten that badly infected (unintentionally that is) the flavor/aroma will be pretty bad and it will climb right out of the bottle. Wort spoilers usually wont cause major issues unless they have had a real good head start on the yeast or your equipment has not been sanitized. But they dont produce alot of extra co2, if any(??)... Beer spoilers like pediococci(spelling??) can produce gas and lactic bacteria (anyone ?? - not sure but dont think these do produce gas either - dont have my ref material here...) Most big problems come from wild yeasts...I was fooling around with a few strains for a few years trying to remove a step, adding primings to the bottling tank, it worked ok for a few months but the strains were not stable and co2 went over board. Bill asked about Slow Starter A half a gal for the smack pack is a little steep, there is not a hell of a lot of volume in the pac. Try 500ml first. Then take the 500ml to the 2000ml or 1/2gal. With the limited build up on the last step it should go quite quickly and be ready to pitch within a couple of days. And I hear you on the dry yeast, I tried a dry yeast from Yeast Labs (Euro Lager) in the last beer(first in 2 years) I brewed. Not all that bad. I think the state of the art in drying yeast has improved dramatically. Some one mentioned pictures: About 12 members of two local clubs Bree Free or Die/Worts Processors got together to brew last month on some moderate sized equipment I have left over from commercial days. We did a (mostly) munich double bockish type beer. (Thanx Jim, all but the triple decoc was done). Some pics are available at: http://rexkp.ne.mediaone.net/buddybock/buddybock.html Net out of the kettle was 75gal Grain Bill about 180# FG 1.084-8 (crappy hydrometer - but does it really matter) Good Luck and Great Brewing Joe Rolfe Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:23:54 -0600 From: "Kelly" <kgrigg at diamonddata.com> Subject: RE: rec.crafts.brewing This is not a web address, but, a newsgroup on USENET. I'm not familiar with AOL, but, am reasonably sure they let you have limited access to the newsgroups....and least the non-controversial ones. If you have a regular connection to the Internet, you can use the newsreaders available on Netscape or MS Explorer....but, I find it best to use a dedicated news reader such as NewsExpress. There is another newsgroup I've found that is good: alt.homebrewing. You can also reach the newsgroups and search them at www.dejanews.com You can find good newsreaders at www.nonags.com . HTH, Kelly Original message: Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:51:21 EST From: JPullum127 at aol.com Subject: rec.crafts.brewing i have heard several times about this web site but cannot locate it. can anyone share the correct address with me? thanks Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 12:33:45 -0500 From: David Whitman <dwhitman at rohmhaas.com> Subject: H2 in Beer Eric Fouch is worried about the effect of H2 in beer: >Bill Wright shares an AP release regarding the popularity of hydrogen beer in >Tokyo. The only problem I could foresee with this would be in the case of >nitrogen blown stouts. Hydrogen is a nitrogen fixer, and you would tend to >negate the benefits of N2 blown stouts. You also could damage heading >proteins. While any benefit of adding the hydrogen is lost on me, as a chemist I can confidently say that the reactions Eric lists won't be a problem unless you drink the beer from a VERY expensive mug. Neither N2 or proteins will react with H2 at room temperature in the absence of a special catalyst (platinum, palladium, etc). You can buy dilute H2 in N2 blends ("forming gas") which have indefinite shelf life. Forming gas is a lot safer to handle than pure hydrogen. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:41:08 PST From: "Andrew Avis" <andrew_avis at hotmail.com> Subject: No! Not another Pat's Post! HBDers - I would like to propose a toast. To the thread that wouldn't die! Now, I'd like to propose a web site. There is an excellent site for gardeners that lists mail order seed catalogues, and commentary from customers, both positive and negative. It's at: http://pbmfaq.dvol.com/list/ Wouldn't it be great if someone did the same for mail order homebrew supply companies? That way, people could vent their spleen on a permanent forum meant for that purpose, and the HBD could move onto other things. I would take this on, but I'm presently engaged in other web stuff. And on that topic, Alan McKay writes: <As for putting up pictures of everyone, there is already a similar project going on for patrons of the rec.crafts.brewing newsgroup. Unfortunately I have the link to the page at home, so I can't look it up right now. Andrew Avis is running it. > The address is in my sig below. Since I already have something up and running & a system for adding names, I would be happy to create a similar page for HBD regulars, if there is demand for such a thing. Regards, Drew - -- Drew Avis, Calgary, Alberta Visit my "Cheap is Good 3-Tier All Grain Home Brewery": http://www.geocities.com/NapaValley/Vineyard/5543/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 10:02:30 -0800 From: asmith at apollo.org (Andrew Smith) Subject: Re: US Grown European hops It's my general impression that the US-grown varieties have a stronger flavour than the European-grown varieties. At least, this is my experience with US Fuggles (bought from St.Pats, by the way, who made a couple of mistakes in the order but corrected them promptly, so I have no complaints) They have a rather harsh, obvious taste which is out of place in the bitter & brown ale that I brewed using them. On the other hand, the Alpha Acid content of 6% was about one-and-a-half times as much as I had expected, so I will just use less hops next time. I haven't tried the Goldings. My impression in general is that US hops in general are very "up-front" in their flavour, but I would also guess that European hops wouldn't be very successful for the high hopping rates of American IPAs, etc. I now try and use UK grown hops for my British beers, although I have to use pellets or plugs, where I would have preferred to use leaf hops. I would like to add another question to this: I use US chocolate malt & roasted barley for in my British ales, but I don't really get the taste I want. Could this just be my supplier (I find it hard to believe that US-made roasted barley could be very different to to the UK variety) or do other people agree with this? Thanks, Andrew Smith Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 13:22:09 -0500 From: "Ken Schramm" <schramk at wcresa.k12.mi.us> Subject: Mazer Cup Reminder, Prize Update Just a reminder that entries for the Mazer Cup Mead Competition will be due: Feb 1 - 20. Eight Categories, GREAT Prizes. Additionally, Cindy Renfrow, Auhor of "A Sip Through Time, A Collection of Old Brewing Recipes" has donated a copy of her book (maybe we can even get her to sign it) to serve as an additional prize to the Best of Show winner. Info available at http://hbd.org/mazercup or contact Dan McConnell: danmcc at umich.edu or Ken Schramm schramk at wcresa.k12.mi.us Enter early and often. Ken Schramm The judging will be held at Jeff Renner's home, 0 miles from Jeff Renner. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 13:34:35 -0500 From: John Murphy <jbm at ll.mit.edu> Subject: Re: Diacetyl Rest John Adsit (jadsit at jeffco.k12.co.us) writes about trying a diacetyl rest on his pilsner: >I placed the secondary in a crawl space at about 58-60 >degrees for the diacetyl rest. Last night, after 24 hours, I saw that >fermentation had been reactivated significantly, a blip about every four >seconds. This morning it has slowed to ten seconds. > I recently tried using a diacetyl rest on my CAP. There was some activity in the airlock, but not as vigorous as you describe above. I wasn't overly concerned, considering the rise in temp. Unfortunately for me, I definitely smelled diacetyl at bottling. Not sure, where I went wrong. I seem to recall reading something in Miller's book about the possibility of creating more diacetyl with a rest if not done properly. Fix's article in Brewing Techniques is a good read on this subject at: http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue1.2/fix.html Good luck. John Murphy jbm at ll.mit.edu Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 14:41:38 -0500 From: Jim Bentson <jbentson at longisland.com> Subject: Decoction Main Mash Temp. Schedules Hi all : Paul Smith recently asked about main mash temperatures while decocting. George De Piro gave an answer that I feel created a false impression. George seemed to imply that you had to skip the 138-140F protein/ beta and instead rest at 155-158f if you wanted a dextrinous wort while decocting. I don't agree that this has to be the case if you are willing to forgo the idea of the decoction mash being a heat source for the main mash What I am about to describe has been stated by others but I feel it should be re-emphasized. What George was describing holds true primarily if you are using the decoction both as a temperature control as well as a Maillard "reactor". My preferred procedure for a single decoction is to treat the main mash as a normal step infusion and the decoction as a totally separate process and do independent temperature control. To this end I do the following. 1) Mash in thick ( 1 to 1.1 qts per lb).This allows later main mash temp. adjustments by infusion. 2) Use infusions or heat additions to put the main mash through whatever temperature schedule you want to perform up to the time/temp point for pulling the decoction. 3) Pull the desired decoction fraction using a strainer and then take just enough mash liquid to "fill in the voids" in the decoction pot. Actually if your main mash is still at 1 to 1.1 qts per lb ( heated main mash) you can just stir and pull the desired fraction as this is about the right "wetness" for the decoction pot. 4) Heat the decoction on your brewing burner to 155-158F and rest for about 20 min. During this time take a few gallons of your brew water and start heating it to boiling on your kitchen stove. This will be used to infuse the main mash up to your sugar/alpha rest temperature at the desired time.(You could have also done this water heating during any main mash rest prior to pulling the decoction) 5) Bring the decoction to boiling. I boil 30 to 40 min. During this time use the boiling water from the kitchen to infuse the main mash up to the desired target temperature-time schedule you want to use. 6) At the end of the decoction, take COLD brewing water and LOWER the decoction temperature to the same temperature as the main mash. Mix the decoction into the main mash and let rest till conversion. The key element here is to not think of using the decoction for ANY temperature control. Think of the decoction as a separate process and continue the main mash on its normal step infusion program. This "uncouples" the two mashes in terms of time and temperature ( with the exception that the main mash will have a longer "alpha rest" than the decocted addition and this must be accounted for in your desired profile). This method allows an infinitely variable schedule at the cost of a small extra amount of energy. The main difference is in steps 4-6 where once the decoction is pulled, the main mash and the decoction can be heated on any schedules you want since they will be mixed at the same temperature. Hope this helps those who have been thinking about decoction but afraid to try. DO IT!! It is just plain fun and develops good scheduling skills. Its no more difficult than cooking a multi-dish main dinner and timing everything to come out at the same time. Jim Bentson Centerport NY Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 19:14:17 -0500 From: Jean-Sebastien Morisset <jsmoriss at axess.com> Subject: "Homebrewery Design Pages" Updated. Just thought I'd let everyone know that I've added 3 new entries to the "Homebrewery Design Pages" in the last two days. This brings the total to 28 Homebreweries on the Internet! The latest Homebreweries are: Drew Avis' "Cheap is Good" 40-Litre 3-Tier SuperBrewery. Lee's Brewery. Ken Schwartz's 5 Gallon Plastic Electric Brewery. The URL for the "Homebrewery Design Pages" is: <http://www.axess.com/users/jsm-mv/brasseurs-mv/homebreweries.html> Later! js. - -- Jean-Sebastien Morisset, Sr. UNIX Admin <mailto:jsmoriss at axess.com> Personal Homepage <http://www.axess.com/users/jsm-mv/jsmoriss/> Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 18:55:41 -0600 From: "Jay Krause" <krause at galis.com> Subject: Pyramid Alehouse ESB Greetings, Does anyone have an extract/partial mash recipe for Pyramid Alehouse ESB? I had a 6 pack this week and was very impressed. Anyone have any comments about their other beers? Thanks Jay Krause Keeper of "Jay's Beer Label of the Week" http://members.tripod.com/~beerlable Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 20:27:18 -0500 From: Bob Sheck <bsheck at skantech.net> Subject: RE: Brewer's Pics My pic can be found at: http://www.skantech.net/bsheck/bobsheck.htm FWIW! Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 21:04:36 -0500 From: Doug Moyer <shyzaboy at geocities.com> Subject: Pump with Rubbermaid Folks, I want to buy a pump from Moving Brews ( http://movingbrews.com/index.shtml ) for recirculating during my mash. I am currently using a 10 gal. Rubbermaid (circular) beverage cooler for a mash tun. Most of the fittings they sell at Moving Brews are NPT, which doesn't seem to be the right answer for a bulkhead-type fitting. Anyone out there using a pump with a Rubbermaid/Gott cooler? What do you do? I want to keep a 1/2" ID. What do I do? Help! Brew on! Doug Moyer Salem, VA Star City Brewers Guild: http://hbd.org/starcity Return to table of contents
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