---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  AHA, Brian Rezac, HBD, etc. ("Jim Kingsberg")
  Brian Rezac and a beer question ("Penn, John")
  UK Brewing (Dan Listermann)
  Fired Under Charlie Klub ("John S. Thomas")
  AHA ("Sieben, Richard")
  Jap. Beetles (Joy Hansen)
  mash thickness ... ("Stephen Alexander")
  Brian Rezac firing... (Jim Cave)
  The Demise of AHA (Cory Chadwell Page Navigation)
  drip pans (Adam Holmes)
  Brian's Departure (Paul Gatza)
  bugs n such, alt (Lou.Heavner)
  San Diego BJCP exam ("Peter Zien")
  Dishwashers (Jeffry D Luck)
  tobacco as insecticide ... effective but ... ("Stephen Alexander")
  Re: Newbies for breakfast (Jeff Hall)
  Cream Ale Carbonation (HenryZeke)
  Green Beans (Dave Burley)
  HBD #3088 bitchin (Liz Blades)
  Boycott the AHA through the clubs system (ThE GrEaT BrEwHoLiO)
  re: tasting the Berliner weiss ("Brian J. Paszkiet")
  Beer lines (BrewInfo)
  Underachievers ("Michael Maag")


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 08:25:06 -0500
From: "Jim Kingsberg" <jdkingsb at hewitt.com>
Subject: AHA, Brian Rezac, HBD, etc.

Ive been reading the HBD for about 5 years and have been brewing for about
6 years.  Ive never subscribed to Zymurgy or became a member of AHA under
the guise of subscribing to a magazine.  Ive always thought of the
AHA-as-a-lobbying group as a joke.  I started out with Dave Miller's Book
and several suggestions in getting started from a local homebrew shop
(Thanks, Brew and Grow).  I later bought Papazian's TNCJHB and thought it
was not as good as Dave Miller's.  In fact, I didnt like it and dont
recommend the book to people I know who are starting out.  Miller's book
shows a kind of progression and comparison among all-extract to all-grain
brewing.

To me, the book, the magazine, the organization and Charlie P. are all a
farce.  These, to me, seemed like they were really oppurtunistic money
making projects.  Im not against money making ventures, however.  Im
wondering if either the AHA never aspired to what homebrewers wanted and
needed (thereby duping us into joining the AHA) or if the AHA was merely a
for-profit "fan club" that doesnt really do anything and that homebrewers
assigned higher expectations and are now disappointed because the AHA didnt
meet their expectations.

The points Im trying to make are
A) it seems apparent that homebrewing as an industry and hobby is on the
wane,
B) The AHA does not meet the expectations of many homebrewers (note drop in
Zymurgy subscriptions, what percentage of homebrewers subscribe, etc)
C) The HBD, while not accesible to all homebrewers, has supplied years of
bonafide, and personalized information on a pro bono basis (for the most
part),
D) Even the HBD is not entirely focused (as a collective) on the topics of
homebrewing.  The HBD is serving basically two types of homebrewers; the
newbie and the scientist.  There will always be rants unrelated to brewing
and they will generally die quiet deaths.
E)  There is a core of homebrewing knowledge here on the HBD.  There is
probably an excellent demographic of professionals who could "lend" a hand
at starting a new Homebrewers Association.

With these points in mind, I wholeheartedly agree that a new, better
organized, better homebrewer alligned, association not only can but should
be started.

Respectfully submitted,
Jim Kingsberg
Fugowee Brewery, Evanston, IL




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Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:32:23 -0400
From: "Penn, John" <John.Penn at jhuapl.edu>
Subject: Brian Rezac and a beer question

Wow!  From all the inputs from Brian Rezac on the HBD, it seems to be quite
a loss to the brewing community that he was let go from the AHA.  What in
the **** is going on there at the AHA?  
 
 Now for a beer question.  I managed to attach a ball valve to my Gott
cooler and after some additional tinkering got it to stop leaking.  I tried
it out for the first time last week and I still need to improve a couple of
areas on the design.  First, I noticed bubbles in the hose during sparging.
I increased the flow rate to a very fast sparge to minimize Hot Side
Aeration (HSA) and the bubbles seemed to be fewer or at least the number
bubbles vs. the amount of liquid flowing past improved.  I'm sure my
efficiency suffered but I still seemed to get from 25-27 ppg with 4.7# of
malt in a partial mash pale ale that included 4# of LME in a 5.5 gallon
batch.
    I noticed the hose was very soft and the air was coming from the
attachment of the hose onto the tapered brass hose barb.  It seemed a tight
fit at room temperature but the heat from the sparge caused a loose fit and
allowed air to enter around the barb.  I suppose I could use a hose clamp to
prevent air from coming in.  But I was also wondering is there a type of
plastic hose which is bad for use at 150-170F?  Is there a type of plastic
hose that is preferred for hot sparge water?  I just bought whatever the
local hardware store had.  Maybe the homebrew store carries the right kind
of hose but I'm skeptical since mostly those hoses are used for siphoning
room temperature liquids.  Any advice or input is welcome.  TIA.
   John Penn
  Eldersburg, MD


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Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:41:22 -0400
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: UK Brewing



David Wright (batch43 at hotmail.com) writes about the state of brewing in 
the
UK.  We went to the Home Wine and Beer Trade Association Conference in
Brighton back in 94.  It was held in conjunction with the Home Beer and
Wine Association of the UK's conference.  We had a super time, but I was
really struck with how backwards brewing was there at that time.  If I
remember correctly my table and Clive Donald's were the only two to have
grains of any sort on display.  Clive's was the only one to have whole
hops.  It was all about extract!  Here I was in the land of Dave Line,
Graham Wheeler ( who gave me a couple of his books there - thanks !) and
the Durden Park Beer Circle and almost the whole industry revolved around

extract.  We should not lose sight of the fact that the majority of 
brewers
in the UK brew for tax reasons and their market reflects this.  Hopefully

through the efforts of folks like Clive, things are progressing there.

Clive Donald had been a long time customer of ours and we appreciate it. 

Those of you in the UK should check out Di and Danny Green's "Homebrew
Shop" in Farnbrough.  They support all grain brewing and it is a nice 
place
to visit.  Liz Blades ( blades at airtime.co.uk)  operates a shop in the
north, but I can't recall the name of the town.  She is a lot of fun.

Dan Listermann    dan at listermann.com         72723,1707 at compuserve.com  


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Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 06:43:25 -0700
From: "John S. Thomas" <jthomas at iinet.com>
Subject: Fired Under Charlie Klub

Brian Rezac the only hope for the AHA has now joined the Klub.  Although I
wasn't fired they just stopped paying.  Damn the contract, don't mail the
check!   Or is this the same as firing someone?   After studying the AHA
for years my thoughts were Cathy Ewing was the problem.   Looks like she
was just another front line guy following orders.

Sorry Brian, you were/are a great guy.  Some day Charlie will miss you.  By
the way how large, or should I say small, is the AHA membership now.

John Thomas      


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Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:06:03 -0500
From: "Sieben, Richard" <SIER1 at Aerial1.com>
Subject: AHA

I have never been a member of the AHA, but I was thinking about it after
seeing the glimmer of hope that it might be turning into something fun with
the advent of the efforts of Brian Rezac.  Now that he is out of the picture
there, well I guess the AHA stays out of the picture for me for at least a
while longer.  Maybe it is time for a new international organization to be
formed to meet the needs of homebrewers.  If anyone is going to start it, I
would be interested.  Of course we all need to realize that it would not be
able to be much in the beginning as it will take some time to build momentum
and membership.  But, I  do think the need exists, certainly as evidenced by
this forum at the very least.\


Just thinkin out loud....

Rich Sieben

you probalby wouldn't know where I am even if I told you, so who really
cares about that anyway? silliness isn't it>?


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Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 10:18:36 -0400
From: joytbrew at halifax.com (Joy Hansen)
Subject: Jap. Beetles

Hi Rick and Greg

My comments are strictly my opinion and not supported by any scientific
investigations that I've conducted.  Just a bit of experience and personal
opinion.

Rick wrote: (Snip)
I too have grown hops, apples, Jap. Red Maple trees, string beans,
blackberries, all of which seem to be favored by Jap. beetles.  About three
years ago, I began using the bag traps made by Spectracide.  I use two
traps and place them per directions.  The first couple years I was bagging
beetles like crazy and had to change bags several times.  This year I again
put out my traps in anticipation of the usual onslaught.  My traps have
been out for some time now

(Snip)

The Jap. Beetles arrive here in Scottsburg during the second week in June
each year.  I guess that's the time the larvae pupate after eating your lawn
roots, or what ever it's called, and turn into beetles.  The onslaught
continues for a couple of months.  It seems to me that the beetles are
excellent travelers and will travel many miles just to connect with the
pheromone given off by a female.   The rose blossom fragrance seems
especially attractive as a FOOD and meeting site.  Possibly the males give
off a pheromone that attracts the females?   While waiting, the beetles just
eat!!!  The migration to mate occurs each day about 11 AM and ends about 4
PM.  Once fertilized, the female seems to eat everything in sight and the
beetle grows to about the size of a thumbnail.  The males seem to die.
Quickly.

I use the traps and try to use the wind to trap the critters before they get
to my plants.  It works sometimes.  Not being an organic kind of guy, I use
Dragon (5 or 10%) Sevin with BT?  I wet the ornamentals (firebush, roses,
barberries, hibiscus, azaleas, and several types of Jap. maples) then dust
them with Sevin.  When the beetles return, I dust them again.  Some leaves
still turn into strainers; however, if the beetles eat, they DIE.  If they
enter the trap, they DIE!  My oramentals survive!  It's about time for the
crepe myrtle to bloom and that will lessen the pressure on the more
expensive ornamentals.

Rick wrote: (snip)
On planting sacrificial plants.  I feel this would only serve to provide
more favorable conditions to the pests thus allowing for expanded
populations.  This is counter to the results we're seeking.  Don't roll out
the red carpet and raise the white flag.  Declare WAR!  Death to all beetle
swine!
(Snip)

I agree!  Furthermore, the U.S. Government wouldn't spend the few thousand
taxpayer dollars to exterminate the 1 square mile infestation when it was
first detected.  A year later, the infestation covered 100 square miles.  It
should be the Gov't's responsibility to protect its citizenry from this
imported pest and plants like, Jap. beetles, kudzu, gypsy moths, etc.  Alas,
the tax payers don't want to spend the dollars.

So, use of milky spore (I think this is called BT)  on your property and
that of your neighbors will kill off the beetles.  Then, non use of the
traps would be very helpful.  Got get rid of your resident population first.
The milky spore kills the larvae which eats grass roots (lawn), so you know
where you have to apply the stuff.  When whole neighborhoods treat their
property, the problem is nearly eliminated.  Being in a rural agricultural
area, this isn't possible.  However, the Forest Service used the Milky Spore
to treat several areas surrounding my residence to kill gypsy moths.  Thus,
this year there's enough beetles to do damage, but no where near enough to
kill the ornamentals.

Hop growers should check out the individual and community application of
milky spore.  With application this year, next year should be nearly Jap.
Beetle free.  I recommend the use Sevin right now to keep the hops healthy
this year and trash the hop cones of necessary.   Apply the milky spore NOW.
Keeping in mind that the female drops eggs in lawns!  Next year try again.

For those fortunates without a zillion of the critters eating everything in
sight,  they are about 1/4 inch long at this time of year and remind me of
jewelry.  The iridescent purple, green, and black begs the question: "How
can something so beautiful be so destructive?"  The damage looks a lot like
that of the distructive Mexican Been Beetle on string bean plants.  Those
black and yellow critters are very attractive.

Let's see, blue mold, tobacco mosaic, squash beetles, squash vine borers,
aphids, root maggets,  slugs, nematodes, and etc.  What's a gardener to do?
Don't worry, just sit and have a home brew!

                                               Joy"T"Brew



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Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 10:42:58 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: mash thickness ...

*** Warning Science content - please page down if you find information
offensive

Paul Smith provides good insights into the issues of mash thickness vs
fermentability.  The term "thermal mass" as opposed to heat capacity (Cp)
always rubs the wrong way, but the description in this case is slightly off
for other reasons.  The beta-amylase is less stable in thinner solutions in
all cases regardless of "thermal mass".  The effect is that is the BA enzyme
in  the presence of it's substrate (starch, amylose, ...) at higher
concentrations (thicker mashes) it is inherently more stable.  The effect is
called substrate stabilization.  In high substrate, low water regimes, the
beta-amylase reaction rates are limited by the unavailability of free water
molecules. This effect is apparent in the table below.

For an hour long mash at various temps and mash
thickness Hall reports as follows. Each triplet of numbers below represents
results for a mash thickness of <67%, 39%, 29%> this corresponds with
<0.7, 1.25, 1.7> qt/lb in HB terms.  Mashing temperatures as listed.

Fermentability(%)
140F    <73.3,  76.1,  76.2>
150F    <67.4,  71.2,  69.7>
155F    <64.4,  65.0,  65.3>

Extract (%)
140F    <55-63, 76.2, 75.6>
150F    <73.4,   75.3,  74.2>
155F    <73.3,   75.6,  74.0>

Note the highest fermentability is for the 140F/1.7qt/lb mash, while the
highest extract is for the 140F/1.25qt/lb mash.  Note also that the
differences in extract are too small for HB level concern in any but the
extremely thick (0.7qt/lb) 140F mash.  The variation in fermentability was
primarily due to mash temp, tho' thickness clearly was a significant
effect..

The same study above also shows more proteolysis in the thicker mashes.  It
isn't that proteolytic enzymes like thick mash conditions more - it's just
that they survive to 140F and 150F in a very thick mash - not in a thin.

Generally for hydrolytic enzyme activity you will find a "sweet spot"(sic)
or optima in the mash thickness scale for a given temperature.  This optima
shifts to a thicker mash point as temperature increases, and gradually  the
optima fades/disappears at a sufficiently high temperature..
- ----
In two separate papers, (JIB 1990, v97, pp85-92, ibid pp93-100)  Robert
Muller writes of "The Effects of Mashing Temperature and Mash Thickness on
Wort Carbohydrate Composition." about higher temp mashes.  And also in the
influence of other grain components (adjunct grains).  His data show a
"knee" in the extract vs thickness curves for all malt mashes around 1qt/lb
with figures around 1.5 to 2.0 qt/lb seeming to me  reasonable compromises.
Muller finds that at 70C(158F) that fermentability drops from a high region
between 1-1.5qt/lb, to a lower figure from 2.0-3.5qt/lb.

Thinner mash is required for adjunct mashes to maintain extract efficiency.
Raw barley and wheat still exhibit a "knee" in the extract vs thickness
curve a bit above 1qt/lb, but maize and potato starch have no such knee and
their extracts continues to climb significantly up to 3.5qt/lb and
presumably beyond.

 -S




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Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 07:55:54 -0700
From: Jim Cave <cave at psc.org>
Subject: Brian Rezac firing...

	Well this obviously isn't a rumour, since we've heard it from the horses 
mouth.  There has been a bit of talk of late on the HBD on the AHA 
generally and why some of us are critical of the organization.  This is 
just another "case" in the long term "regression" of the AHA over time (you 
can read this with statistical reference or literally!!! Just figure the 
slope of the line is negative!!).  Another reason for our general concern 
is the obvious deterioration of Zymurgy.  Just look at the older issues to 
see the content.  More on all of this later.

					Jim Cave




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Date: Wed, 21 Jul 99 10:07:20 -0500
From: Cory Chadwell Page Navigation <chadwell at ssd.fsi.com>
Subject: The Demise of AHA

Howdy fellow Brewers in arms,

I continue to hear reason after reason for why and how the AHA has let down 
it's membership and the homebrewing community at large, most recently the 
unexpected dismissal of Brian Rezac.  Many of those denouncing the AHA are 
homebrewers I've learned to respect for their well thought responses to the 
occasional query or post I myself have placed on the HDB.

It occurs to me that the AHA is only doing what natural selection has taught 
them to do.  They continue to behave badly (in our humble opinions), we 
complain, and they sign up a new batch of new brewers and give out a few 
issues of zymurgy.  But since no real alternatives exist nothing really 
changes, the AHA continues to thrive, and we are left only to be shocked when 
it all happens again in 6 months or so.

One primary complaint is the lack of grassroots organizational support the AHA 
claims to provide in spades.  Perhaps it's time that a true grassroots 
organization tries to provide an alternative to the AHA.  We have so many 
resources available here, everything from business owners to administrators 
and I believe we even have one former administrator of a fairly well known 
homebrewing association.  It seems to me we should be able to cobble together 
a upstart homebrew association and a respectable knowledgeable membership.

I would earnestly like to hear opinions on how a organization could be 
started, what we could offer the community, and how it should be addressed.  
Something like...

reasonable membership fee's for bimonthly mailers detailing homebrew 
experiments and debates like clinit*st, topics to be determined from at large 
survey's and members get one of those Pat Babcock slogan T-shirts.

Stuff like that, just to get an idea what we as a homebrewing community really 
want.

Maybe we don't really have the resources for it, but I'd like to think we 
could at least put something together that might prompt the AHA to seriously 
reflect on it's member needs.

Feel free to reply in public or private, but I think this is a topic that 
would do well to be addressed publicly on this forum.

Thanks, Cory
- -- 

- --------------------------------------------------------------------
Cory D. Chadwell          FlightSafety International
Design Engineer           2700 N. Hemlock Circle                     
Navigation / Visual       Broken Arrow, Oklahoma 74012       /|
chadwell at ssd.fsi.com                                        /c|   -
9186919796 at mobile.att.net (text paging 150 characters)     /  |  /|
- ------------------------------------------------------  <-----s---
                                                      FSI  \  |  \|
                                                       SSD  \c|   -
                                                             \|




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Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:41:24 -0600 (MDT)
From: Adam Holmes <aaholmes at lamar.ColoState.EDU>
Subject: drip pans

I just got a used kegerator but it does not have a drip pan underneath the
beer faucet.  I will definitely buy or make one myself since the fridge 
will be indoors and drips would fall onto the carpet.  Drip pans seem to
be $20-$40.  My questions:

1) Some drip pans have no drain tube while others do.  Any
reccomendations from those that have been using them?

2) How do you maintain your drip trays?  Do these things get smelly fast?

3) Anyone ever make their own drip tray?  I'm looking for cheap first and
beauty second.

Thanks,
Private email OK

Adam Holmes



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Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 10:39:58 -0600
From: Paul Gatza <paulg at aob.org>
Subject: Brian's Departure

I terminated Brian Rezac's employment from the AHA yesterday. I have
known Brian since the first time he came in after his wife Nancy bought
him his start-up kit. We are friends and will continue to be. 

Brian's amazing interpersonal skills did not, unfortunately, transfer
into the administrative realm. Brian was in a probationary period and
unfortunately did not meet the terms of that probation. There are
standards of employment across this country which nearly all employees
must meet that were not being met in this case. It is a sad day at the
AHA. Brian's legacy will certainly be positive as Big Brew showed how
talented, creative and motivating he can be. 

I did not take this change lightly, as I I like Brian and I knew it
would be unpopular and alienating to the internet homebrewing community.
There is more to the picture than the homebrew-community-building work
Brian is so successful at, and I don't think it would be appropriate to
divulge details without Brian's approval. 

I have received several e-mails from members who have decided not to
renew their memberships over this issue. Everyone must make their own
decision, and I respect that. But it is because I work for the members
that I had to make a change to protect the interests of the members who
entrust us with dues to promote the hobby of homebrewing and run
programs for homebrewers.   
- -- 
Paul Gatza
Director
American Homebrewers Association	(303) 447-0816 x 122
736 Pearl Street			(303) 447-2825 -- FAX
PO Box 1679				paulg at aob.org -- E-MAIL
Boulder, CO 80306-1679			info at aob.org -- AOB INFO
U.S.A.					http://www.beertown.org -- WEB


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Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 11:00:02 -0500
From: Lou.Heavner at frco.com
Subject: bugs n such, alt

     A quick search finds Cahri's Bugs On-Line with pix of Jap beetles and
     others good and bad.  It also includes info on the insects and some
     methods of control.  See:
     <www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Loge/9474index.html>.  I've heard of the
     tobacco juice and it's insecticidal properties.  I've also heard that
     handling tobacco can result in the transmission of the tobacco mosaic
     virus to your nightshade vegetables (tomatoes, potatoes, peppers,
     eggplants).  Don't know if it is a momily or not, maybe somebody else
     can chime in.  Garden's Alive is also a great source of info on garden
     insects and their control.

     Of course this is a brewing list and not a gardening list, so let me
     relate a brewing experience.  Made the Al K alt recipe recently.  My
     lazy procedure is to let the beer ferment longer than expected before
     bottling.  Instead of testing the wort during fermentation or before
     bottling, I check it while bottling.  Never before had a significantly
     underfermented beer at bottling time and was quite surprised to find
     this one was waaayyy underfermented. Since I'd already added my
     priming sugar and begun bottling, it was a little late to stop.
     Conditioned at room temp for 10 days and is it ever carbonated.  I
     didn't have time to build a proper starter so I did a quick 1 step up
     of Wyeast 1338 and added a vial of White Labs "pitchable" Alt yeast
     with no step up. It was in the primary for a full 2 weeks and the
     ferment was very vigorous early on and a bit on the warm side (ambient
     room temp in upper 70's, the fermenter at 69-70).  The resulting beer
     tastes pretty darn good, even the ones that have been kept at room
     temp for over a month due to a lack of reefer space.  So far no burst
     bottles, but the point is that for this batch I got poor attenuation
     in the primary.  I used normal procedure for aeration, pooring between
     buckets, and had less break material than usual in the fermenter.  My
     yeast population should have been decent given that I added the White
     Labs Pitchable as insurance.  Too many varibles to pinpoint the reason
     for the yeast performance, but it reinforces some of the recent
     comments about the under attenuative performance of Wyeast 1338 and
     less recent comments on the value of building a starter even for the
     White Labs yeast.  Also indicates the value of testing the wort
     (hydrometer or Clinitest) for end of fermentation prior to bottling.
     I have to say that one benefit is this beer has the best head I've
     ever seen!  Can you say meringue?

     Cheers!

     Lou Heavner - now planting the Fall garden and planning the Fall
     brewing calendar in Austin, TX - w/ no basement


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Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:27:42 -0700
From: "Peter Zien" <PZ.JDZINC at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: San Diego BJCP exam

The San Diego Homebrew Club, QUAFF, will once again sponsor the BJCP exam
later this year.   The exam date is scheduled for November 20, 1999 and will
be given at the AleSmith Brewery in San Diego.   A 10 week comprehensive
study course will begin the week of September 13, 1999 and continue up to
the exam.   Cost of the class is $20.   You may take the exam without taking
the study course and visa versa.

 For more information please contact Peter Zien at
PZ.JDZINC at worldnet.att.net





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Date: 21 Jul 1999 09:20:35 -0700
From: Jeffry D Luck <Jeffry.D.Luck at aexp.com>
Subject: Dishwashers

Trying to improve the Dishwasher sterilization process -- 
has anybody just added bleach to the dishwasher in that 
little place where the soap goes?  Would this kill the nasties 
that the heat missed?  Would it rinse well?  

 ...Of course I'm gonna try it anyway, I just wanted some 
advance warning.

Jeff Luck
Salt Lake City, UT  USA

"Any fool can pull a pint of Guinness, but not just any fool 
can pull a nice pint of Guinness"


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Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 13:25:57 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: tobacco as insecticide ... effective but ...

Please DO NOT USE TOBACCO PRODUCTS IN YOUR GARDEN (or in your lungs for that
matter).  It may destroy your garden for a period of years.

*** WARNING -- some Science content follows - page down if this offends

Using tobacco extract is a well know home garden method of insect control
suggested by mumbo-jumbo guru's (like that 'Garden Doctor' fellow on PBS).
It is an effective insecticide - but less well  known is that a plant
disease called Mosaic Virus is common on tobacco products and is readily
spread to tomato, pepper, spinach, chard, marigold, petunia, melon and
squash plants among others.

Most important, M&BS(pp417):states that.Hops plants are subject to mosaic
virus!  A lethal and non-lethal form exists among hops.  The latter saps
plant vitality and of course infects other plants.  There is no treatment or
cure for an infected crop.

To quote from Kansas State's Research website re mosaic virus on tomatoes
 ....

]The tobacco mosaic virus is very
]stable and can persist in contaminated soil, in infected tomato debris, on
or in
]the seed coat, and in manufactured tobacco products. The virus is
]transmitted readily from plant to plant by mechanical means. This may
simply
]involve [...] brushing against them with  contaminated tools, clothing, or
hands.
[...]
]Recommendations: Virus diseases cannot be controlled once the plant is
]infected. [...] Infected plants should be removed immediately to prevent
]spread [...]. The use of tobacco products during cultural
]practices should be avoided to prevent inoculation of plants with the
tobacco
]mosaic virus. Those people using tobacco or working with infected plant
]material should wash their hands thoroughly in soapy water before handling
]tomato plants.

The solution suggested is to burn your plants, and let the site lay
unplanted for three (!!) seasons.
If anyone has already tried this method - best wishes in avoiding this
extremely nasty plague.  You may not see the effects for a season, and
hopefully not at all.  But shutting down your garden for 3 years isn't
exactly a minor penalty for this method of insect control.

Beer,
 -S




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Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 10:59:06 -0800
From: Jeff Hall <hallj at targen.com>
Subject: Re: Newbies for breakfast

Thomas Murray wrote:
>Please someone, show us the last time a "newbie" was torn limb from limb on
>this digest. I have always been impressed by the patience and respect that
>new brewers are given here.
>
Shortly after I started receiving the HBD, I purchased a mini-keg (5 L) system.
I wondered if there were available for this system any nitrogen cartridges, or
if not, had anyone tried using 'whip-its', which contain I believe nitrous
oxide.
Thinking the HBD would be a good place to get the info, I posted my
question.  I
don't recall anymore if any responses on the digest itself were overly
negative,
but man did I get flamed on my personal email.  Same has happened to a friend
of mine who posted.
Speaking of mini-kegs, I've used mine a few times now, and each time when I
tap, the beer comes out extremely frothy, then settles down into a nice, flat
glass of beer.  I have even used up a number of extra cartridges trying to
force some additional carbonation into the beer by shaking (I doubt the
cartidges
have enough pressure for this to do any good, but what is there to lose?).
I have
bottled beer from the same batches, and the bottled beer turns out fine.
Instructions for the mini-keg include using less priming sugar which I did,
and
even with less sugar, the bottles are good, the kegged beer is flat.
Has anyone else had similar experiences?  Should I try using more priming
sugar and risk the exploding keg?  My thought is that I wasted $60, and should
scrap the system.  Please, no personal replies.  If you must flame me, have
the courtesy to do so on the digest so I can use my already abused 'page-down'
key.

Thanks,
Carbonationless in Seattle




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Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 14:03:39 EDT
From: HenryZeke at aol.com
Subject: Cream Ale Carbonation

I am working on an all-extract recipe for a cream ale, but am having trouble 
with the carbonation.  Does anyone have any tips foachieving those smaller 
softer bubbles? Thx


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Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 15:16:13 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Green Beans

Brewsters:

I wonder if Bob Uhl would mind if I took out a life
insurance policy on him  with me as the beneficiary?
It would probably be a good investment for me.
His description of how he cans greens beans
by closing up a glass jar and boiling the water 

*outside* the jar with no boiling inside produces
"green beans that taste almost fresh".

Green beans, being one of the lowest acid
plants we bother to "can", is one of the most
dangerous things we have in the cellar even if
we pressure can them. I can't imagine the odds
if you close up a can and don't even get it
to boiling

("cellar"- the name for a "basement" when I was
growing up in Ohio.)

Bob, resist mightily the temptation to taste that
feshly opened jar before cooking. I hate to
start this up, but you are living dangerously
close to botulism and I cannot let your advice go
unnoticed for fear others will take it.

Pressure can your green beans, please.

Keep on Brewin'


Dave Burley

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Date: Wed, 21 Jul 99 20:55:33 BST
From: blades at airtime.co.uk (Liz Blades)
Subject: HBD #3088 bitchin

Hi,

David Wright wrote bemoaning the state of the UK HB industry.
As a retailer there I have to hold up my hands and agree with some of his 
points and can I take a little of your bandwith to reply to some of them.Pg 
Dn if you want I shan't be offended.

>You think you've got problems?How about us poor sods in the UK who've had to 
>put up with poor quality ingredients and materials for the past 30 
>years.

It is the British Psyche to get pissed (ratted etc) at as little a cost as 
possible,hence all these silly b*****s who regularly go to France for cheap 
booze(but that's another story).Thus when the home brewing of unlimited 
amounts of beer ,without a licence, became legal in this country it opened 
up a huge market.(As an aside wine making was always legal in whatever quantity)
Alas the emphasis was on cheap rather than quality at that time,in the early 
60's, we still had decent breweries in this country.

Then the commercial market started to change and the big boys started to buy 
up the small ones and thus CAMRA was born.By this time the HB industry was 
established and still seen as cheap.That was when we,as a trade, should have 
started to look at quality(I was not in the trade at that time nor were many 
of my contemporaries).
Unfortunately the customers were then all for cheap,even today when I try 
and sell a quality(ie more expensive product) the vast majority are quite 
rude to me even though they could be making a better quality beer for all of 
60p per pint as against the 1.25(at least in the NW of the UK they would be 
paying in the pub.


>Think i'm exaggerating a little,well how about a well known 
>polypropelyne keg manufacturer,who knowingly supplied kegs with faulty screw 
>caps,

I remember this fight well,anyone who complained was either refunded or 
given a replacement(at least through my shop)but it was up to the customer 
to complain until he or she did the retailer had no idea that the goods were 
faulty.(Rather foolishly we as retailers expect the quality control to be 
done at manufacturing level)I certainly remember one barrel supplier being 
put out of business by yours truly as their attitude was"They should put up 
with it"........Mine was "Why should they?" and got every retailer I knew to 
return them.(See we are on your side).



>or maybe a well established supplier who still supplies hops in 
>thin,clear plastic bags.

It's up to the retailer to reject them or store them in the fridge,(which is 
what I used to do).

Again, a lot of our retailers need to be educated.I was in a very well 
established shop at the weekend and was amazed to see hops still for sale in 
this way.

>The only magazine in the UK still publishes recipes 
>that call for'6lbs of sugar and 1lb of malt extract'to make a barley wine.

You've found a retailer that still gives out that rag!!!!!!!!!

I recycle it,either send it back or dump it.

It needs a few fresh writers(the pay aint too good) other than the boring 
old f***s who seem to dominate the scene here.
>thankfully now we have quality suppliers like Clive Donald of'Brupaks'

You should support the retailers who support him and not go running off to 
your local malster/microbrewery for cheap goods,after all they could turn 
round and tell you "no" in the meantime your retailer could have gone out of 
business-so then what do you do?




>and 
>clubs like the'Craft Brewing Association'that are dragging UK homebrew into 
>the 20th century where quality and sound advice are the only watchwords.

Any sensible retailer will get you what you want,but please remember we do 
have to make a profit,after all we have homes,families,cats to support just 
the same as you.You work for a salary,well so do we.

Yours

Elizabeth




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Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 16:32:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: ThE GrEaT BrEwHoLiO <skotrat at yahoo.com>
Subject: Boycott the AHA through the clubs system


I personally have had enough and would like to see a show of hands. 

Is there a way we can group together all of the willing AHA
registered HB clubs and submit our clubs to be un-registered? 

I mean what benefits are we really getting? None as far as I can see.


I doubt another big brew will be happening any time soon. 

Please let me know whom I can count on. If there is an interest I
will put together an online petition.

Thanks

 -Scott "there has got to be a better way to support each other" Abene
===
ThE-HoMe-BrEw-RaT
Scott Abene <skotrat at mediaone.net>
http://skotrat.dynip.com/skotrat (the Homebrew "Beer Slut" page)

"The More I know about beer politics, The more I wish I made 120k"
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



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Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 15:40:26 -0500
From: "Brian J. Paszkiet" <bpaszkie at ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Subject: re: tasting the Berliner weiss

Marc told us about his Berliner Weisse, and the fact that it didn't have
enough sourness.
Marc said
"For those interested in producing a Berliner weiss, I'd take the
shortcut and order some L. delbruckii from your source of choice
(Wyeast 4335, for those curious).  The recent BT article
suggested a yeast/bacteria pitching rate of 5:1.  I'll step up a
German Ale yeast to 2L, then pitch it along with a non-stepped
pack of L. delbruckii at 70F.  Other than the choice of using
cultured bacteria, I think the remaining suggestions from my post
two weeks back will work OK.  Considering how little I worried
about sanitizing on this batch, I'm surprised at how "clean"
tasting it is.  I don't think I'll boil the wort for the next
batch either, instead use 180F water for the sparge."
snip

I recently attempted producing a Berliner Weisse.  I fermented using a
larger quantity of yeast cells (German Ale) than L. delbrueckii.  I also
got very little to no sourness (the beer was fermented for about three
weeks, and then bottled).  I think one problem is not enough Lactobacillus.
 These are fairly slow growing bacteria, and I think to make a good
Berliner Weisse, you need a good, large, healthy starter of bacteria AND
yeast.

My Berliner Weisse has been in the bottle for about 4 months, and has not
developed any sourness.  I have a question for the collective.  The beer is
quite carbonated, and thus the bottles are under a lot of pressure.  Will
pressure inhibit the growth of the Lactobacillus?  If so, i think my next
batch will be left in the carboy until it is fairly sour, and then bottled
(unlike this batch, which I bottled before it had gotten sour).

Thanks,
Brian P. in balmy central Illinois



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Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 16:30:51 -0500 (CDT)
From: BrewInfo <brewinfo at xnet.com>
Subject: Beer lines

Hello everybody (except Jim, who has told me via private email
that he welcomes my absence from the HBD).

I'm a bit (ha!) behind in my reading, and actually, I may have
even posted on this, so please bear with me... I average only
about 4 hours of sleep per night.

In a summary post (back in May) regarding a home draught system, Felix said:

>Al went on to say that I may want
>to consider running the supply hose through a cooling
>jacket, to keep the beer in the line cool.  In 
[snip]
 
>John Wilkinson of Grapevine, Texas suggested that 
>the amount of beer in the line was negligible 
>(~ 3 oz.) and cooling should not be a problem.

John is right about there being very little beer in the lines.
Upon further thought, you still may want to cool your long
beer lines.  Previously, I said that it would avoid loss.  At the
time, I was thinking of warm beer, but actually, there is a much
more important factor: CO2 solubility.  At warmer temperatures,
the beer will hold less CO2, so if you take a beer that is
perfectly carbonated at 50F and run it through 8 feet of 70F
hose, the beer will warm up (say, to 55 or 60F) and a lot
of the carbonation will come out of the beer as foam.  Until
the beer cools the line down, you will have a slowly decreasing
foaming.  For 8' of hose, this may only be a few seconds and
thus negligible.  I don't know at what point it begins to matter.
You may want to design the system so there is ROOM for a cooling
jacket and then only add one if there is excessive foaming that
subsides halfway through the glass.  I do know that commercial
systems in bars are often refrigerated... even the ones that
are constantly in use.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Lockport, IL
korz at brewinfo.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 18:01:02 -0400
From: "Michael Maag" <maagm at rica.net>
Subject: Underachievers

Keith writes:
>.>......a lot of  knowledgeable, informative
posters that have since disappeared from the HBD. I don't know the reason
why they jumped ship but there is an undercurrent of  "why are these
bastards picking on us" in some their posts.
We have something similar here in NZ called the tall poppy syndrome, where
the underachievers fell the need to cut the successful down to their size.<<

Keith, underachievers don't do things like that, we are not competetive
enough!  The only reason I took the initative to respond is that email is so
easy 8*)
Underachievers are not guru-wannabe's, we just want to make good beer. I
bewail the loss of knowlegable posters too.

Mike Maag, in the Shenandoah Valley
Underachievers have more fun!




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