---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  BIG PRESSURE CHART (Alan Edwards)
  Re: Seattle Homebrewing & Mead Question ("Christopher Farley")
  Mash Thickness ("Eric R. Theiner")
  Safale Yeast (LLOM)" <LLOM at chevron.com>
  Oxidation / Son Of Pivo (ALAN KEITH MEEKER)
  Re: Fermentability of Sugars and carbohydrates (Dave Burley)
  Metric Pressure Chart (Alan Edwards)
  Cheese/Yeast/Enzyme denaturation/Son of Pivo (ALAN KEITH MEEKER)
  Bass Draught Clone Recipes (Daniel Ankeny)
  RIMS design question ("J. Doug Brown")
  Yankee becomes Damn Yankee, Fridge Guy Help!! (Dave Burley)
  Reasons for brewing in the Great White North ("Alan McKay")
  HB party nomination/other stuff ("Stephen Alexander")
  Re: Why Homebrew ("Nigel Porter")
  pesticide for hops (SClaus4688)
  cheese (John Wilkinson)
  Safale back to back (Kurt Goodwin)
  Obsessing on Oxidation. . . ("Galloway")
  Glycol? (The Holders)
  Roller mill questions (Petr Otahal)
  Vote your opinion (Jim Liddil)
  basements ? ("Stephen Alexander")
  Newbies For Breakfast??? ("Phil and Jill Yates")
  Jap. Beetle/Tip from Commercial Brewing (AJ)
  Leaving AHA (KTNeall)
  Does the AOB owe an explanation? ("Alan McKay")
  Ring Burners Needed - not complete brewstands ("SCHNEIDER,BRETT")
  hop utilization by style ("Sieben, Richard")


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 08:06:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Edwards <ale at cisco.com>
Subject: BIG PRESSURE CHART

How high you wanna go?

Teutonic Brewer writes:
| Subject: Re: Keg Pressure for Wheat Beers
|  
| Hi, Brian,
|  
| Yes, three and a half to four and a half volumes of CO2 in a German style
| wheat beer needs 20-30 psi -- but my CO2 volume vs pressure table doesn't
| go up that far!

I wrote a pressure-chart-generator that can do any temp/pressure you want.
I'll post a big-ol' chart below, for what it's worth.

| While you could carbonate it to that level, dispensing it
| from the keg will be a problem.  It'll shoot out of the pint glass all over
| you, the fridge, the walls, the ceiling, you get the idea.  Even if you
| bleed the excess head pressure off when you want to serve it, you'll still
| get a glass full of foam and not much else.  I recommend just carbonating
| it to the usual 10psi level and live with the lower carbonation.

There are those who argue that using a long serving line will drop the
pressure at the tap.  You might try keeping the keg at near-freezing,
and after carbonating it to your target, if you use a really long serving
line (also kept in the fridge), there might be a sweet-spot in the serving
pressure where you get high-carb beer and less foam.

Is that possible?  Anyone tried it?

Anyway, heres the outlandishly large pressure chart:

 -Alan in Fremont, CA


PRESSURE (PSI) REQUIRED FOR DESIRED CARBONATION
 
      Volumes of CO2 desired
      2.0  2.2  2.4  2.6  2.8  3.0  3.2  3.4  3.6  3.8  4.0  4.2  4.4  4.6  4.8
Temp
32F   3.5  5.4  7.3  9.2 11.0 12.9 14.8 16.7 18.5 20.4 22.2 24.1 25.9 27.8 29.6
34F   4.3  6.3  8.2 10.2 12.1 14.1 16.0 18.0 19.9 21.8 23.8 25.7 27.6 29.5 31.4
36F   5.1  7.2  9.2 11.2 13.3 15.3 17.3 19.3 21.3 23.3 25.3 27.3 29.2 31.2 33.2
38F   6.0  8.1 10.2 12.3 14.4 16.5 18.6 20.6 22.7 24.8 26.8 28.9 30.9 33.0 35.0
40F   6.8  9.0 11.2 13.4 15.5 17.7 19.8 22.0 24.1 26.2 28.4 30.5 32.6 34.7 36.8
42F   7.7 10.0 12.2 14.4 16.7 18.9 21.1 23.3 25.5 27.7 29.9 32.1 34.3 36.5 38.7
44F   8.6 10.9 13.2 15.5 17.8 20.1 22.4 24.7 27.0 29.2 31.5 33.8 36.0 38.3 40.5
46F   9.5 11.8 14.2 16.6 19.0 21.3 23.7 26.0 28.4 30.7 33.1 35.4 37.7 40.1 42.4
48F  10.4 12.8 15.3 17.7 20.1 22.6 25.0 27.4 29.8 32.3 34.7 37.1 39.5 41.8 44.2
50F  11.3 13.8 16.3 18.8 21.3 23.8 26.3 28.8 31.3 33.8 36.3 38.7 41.2 43.6 46.1
52F  12.2 14.8 17.3 19.9 22.5 25.1 27.6 30.2 32.8 35.3 37.9 40.4 42.9 45.5 48.0
54F  13.1 15.7 18.4 21.1 23.7 26.3 29.0 31.6 34.2 36.9 39.5 42.1 44.7 47.3 49.9
56F  14.0 16.7 19.5 22.2 24.9 27.6 30.3 33.0 35.7 38.4 41.1 43.8 46.4 49.1 51.8
58F  15.0 17.8 20.6 23.3 26.1 28.9 31.7 34.5 37.2 40.0 42.7 45.5 48.2 51.0 53.7
60F  15.9 18.8 21.6 24.5 27.4 30.2 33.0 35.9 38.7 41.5 44.4 47.2 50.0 52.8 55.6
62F  16.9 19.8 22.7 25.7 28.6 31.5 34.4 37.3 40.2 43.1 46.0 48.9 51.8 54.7 57.5
64F  17.8 20.8 23.8 26.8 29.8 32.8 35.8 38.8 41.8 44.7 47.7 50.6 53.6 56.5 59.5
66F  18.8 21.9 25.0 28.0 31.1 34.1 37.2 40.2 43.3 46.3 49.3 52.4 55.4 58.4 61.4
68F  19.8 22.9 26.1 29.2 32.4 35.5 38.6 41.7 44.8 47.9 51.0 54.1 57.2 60.3 63.4
70F  20.8 24.0 27.2 30.4 33.6 36.8 40.0 43.2 46.4 49.5 52.7 55.9 59.0 62.2 65.3
72F  21.8 25.1 28.4 31.6 34.9 38.2 41.4 44.7 47.9 51.2 54.4 57.6 60.9 64.1 67.3
74F  22.8 26.2 29.5 32.9 36.2 39.5 42.9 46.2 49.5 52.8 56.1 59.4 62.7 66.0 69.3
76F  23.8 27.2 30.7 34.1 37.5 40.9 44.3 47.7 51.1 54.5 57.8 61.2 64.6 67.9 71.3
78F  24.9 28.4 31.8 35.3 38.8 42.3 45.7 49.2 52.7 56.1 59.6 63.0 66.4 69.9 73.3
80F  25.9 29.5 33.0 36.6 40.1 43.7 47.2 50.7 54.3 57.8 61.3 64.8 68.3 71.8 75.3


PRESSURE (PSI) REQUIRED FOR DESIRED CARBONATION
 
      Volumes of CO2 desired
      2.0  2.2  2.4  2.6  2.8  3.0  3.2  3.4  3.6  3.8  4.0  4.2  4.4  4.6  4.8
Temp
00C   3.5  5.4  7.3  9.2 11.0 12.9 14.8 16.7 18.5 20.4 22.2 24.1 25.9 27.8 29.6
01C   4.2  6.2  8.1 10.1 12.0 14.0 15.9 17.8 19.8 21.7 23.6 25.5 27.4 29.3 31.2
02C   5.0  7.0  9.0 11.0 13.0 15.0 17.0 19.0 21.0 23.0 25.0 26.9 28.9 30.9 32.8
03C   5.7  7.8  9.9 12.0 14.0 16.1 18.2 20.2 22.3 24.3 26.4 28.4 30.4 32.4 34.5
04C   6.5  8.6 10.8 12.9 15.1 17.2 19.3 21.4 23.5 25.7 27.8 29.8 31.9 34.0 36.1
05C   7.3  9.5 11.7 13.9 16.1 18.3 20.5 22.6 24.8 27.0 29.2 31.3 33.5 35.6 37.7
06C   8.1 10.3 12.6 14.9 17.1 19.4 21.6 23.9 26.1 28.3 30.6 32.8 35.0 37.2 39.4
07C   8.8 11.2 13.5 15.8 18.2 20.5 22.8 25.1 27.4 29.7 32.0 34.3 36.5 38.8 41.1
08C   9.6 12.0 14.4 16.8 19.2 21.6 24.0 26.3 28.7 31.0 33.4 35.7 38.1 40.4 42.7
09C  10.4 12.9 15.4 17.8 20.3 22.7 25.1 27.6 30.0 32.4 34.8 37.2 39.6 42.0 44.4
10C  11.3 13.8 16.3 18.8 21.3 23.8 26.3 28.8 31.3 33.8 36.3 38.7 41.2 43.6 46.1
11C  12.1 14.7 17.2 19.8 22.4 25.0 27.5 30.1 32.6 35.2 37.7 40.2 42.8 45.3 47.8
12C  12.9 15.6 18.2 20.8 23.5 26.1 28.7 31.3 33.9 36.5 39.1 41.7 44.3 46.9 49.5
13C  13.7 16.4 19.2 21.9 24.5 27.2 29.9 32.6 35.3 37.9 40.6 43.3 45.9 48.6 51.2
14C  14.6 17.4 20.1 22.9 25.6 28.4 31.1 33.9 36.6 39.3 42.1 44.8 47.5 50.2 52.9
15C  15.4 18.3 21.1 23.9 26.7 29.6 32.4 35.2 38.0 40.8 43.5 46.3 49.1 51.9 54.6
16C  16.3 19.2 22.1 25.0 27.8 30.7 33.6 36.5 39.3 42.2 45.0 47.9 50.7 53.5 56.4
17C  17.1 20.1 23.1 26.0 29.0 31.9 34.8 37.8 40.7 43.6 46.5 49.4 52.3 55.2 58.1
18C  18.0 21.0 24.1 27.1 30.1 33.1 36.1 39.1 42.1 45.0 48.0 51.0 53.9 56.9 59.9
19C  18.9 22.0 25.1 28.1 31.2 34.3 37.3 40.4 43.4 46.5 49.5 52.5 55.6 58.6 61.6
20C  19.8 22.9 26.1 29.2 32.4 35.5 38.6 41.7 44.8 47.9 51.0 54.1 57.2 60.3 63.4
21C  20.7 23.9 27.1 30.3 33.5 36.7 39.9 43.0 46.2 49.4 52.5 55.7 58.9 62.0 65.1
22C  21.6 24.9 28.1 31.4 34.6 37.9 41.1 44.4 47.6 50.8 54.1 57.3 60.5 63.7 66.9
23C  22.5 25.8 29.2 32.5 35.8 39.1 42.4 45.7 49.0 52.3 55.6 58.9 62.2 65.4 68.7
24C  23.4 26.8 30.2 33.6 37.0 40.3 43.7 47.1 50.4 53.8 57.1 60.5 63.8 67.2 70.5
25C  24.3 27.8 31.3 34.7 38.1 41.6 45.0 48.4 51.9 55.3 58.7 62.1 65.5 68.9 72.3
26C  25.3 28.8 32.3 35.8 39.3 42.8 46.3 49.8 53.3 56.8 60.3 63.7 67.2 70.6 74.1


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 09:59:17 -0500
From: "Christopher Farley" <chris at northernbrewer.com>
Subject: Re: Seattle Homebrewing & Mead Question

Regarding his 6 month mead fermentation, larson.jt at pg.com writes:

> Will the corks allow pressure to pass
> through them if some residual fermenting occurs, or will I have a bunch of
> exploding bottles?

I can vouch from experience: corks don't allow gas to escape. At least not
very much.

If you *have* to bottle in two weeks (and it sounds like you do), I would do
the following:

1. Take a gravity reading and determine how dry the mead is. A dry mead should
finish between SG 0.990 and 1.000. If your gravity is significantly higher,
you may wish to reconsider your options.

2. Do what winemakers do every time they bottle. Treat it with potassium
sorbate and sulfite. I would use 50 PPM sulfite per gallon (or 1 campden
tablet, crushed) and 1/2 teaspoon of potassium sorbate per gallon. Add these
~24 hours prior to bottling.

> Can anybody offer any suggestions on good brewpubs,
> homebrew stores, etc. in the Seattle area?

My condolences. Seattle isn't really known for beer. ;)

Christopher Farley
Northern Brewer, Ltd.
Saint Paul, Minnesota
www.northernbrewer.com
(800) 681-2739




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Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:21:42 -0700
From: "Eric R. Theiner" <logic at skantech.com>
Subject: Mash Thickness

CLOAKSTONE addresses the effect that thickness of the mash has upon
production of fermentables.  Admittedly, it has been over a decade since
I was in Reaction Kinetics and Biochem, and I have never performed an
energy and mass balance for a slurry in my "real job" (only solutions),
but I have to question the validity of his reasoning.

Yes, this is nitpicking.... but for a good cause.

>The first is that beta amylase is more heat labile than alpha amylase;
a very
>thin mash, having a greater degree of thermal mass, will, at given
>temperatures (even very low temps), tend to denature beta more quickly
than a
>thick mash at the same temperature.

A temperature reading, by its very nature, is a measure of available
energy.  Admittedly, water has a higher heat capacity than grain, but
that refers more to an ability to store that energy.  (For those not
following me, check back for a discussion of how temperature refers
simply to brownian/random motion within a substance.)  Yes, there is
more stored energy in 10# of a thin mash vs. 10# of a thick mash, but
the energy being transmitted to your enzymes will be the same for either
example as long as the temperature is the same.

So why would a thinner mash produce a less fermentable beer?  Dunno--
that has never been the case with mine, but apparently there is some
evidence that it does, so I would suggest there is more at work here.
Perhaps the rate of diffusion of the beta-amylase from the grain into
the liquid part of the mash is to blame; the grain is slower to pick up
the heat from the surrounding mash (ever notice that it takes a little
while for the mash temp to stabilize after an infusion?), so the enzymes
remaining in the grist portion are more protected and thus have a longer
term effect in a thicker mash.

Rick Theiner
LOGIC, Inc.



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Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 08:25:31 -0700
From: "O'mahoney, Larry (LLOM)" <LLOM at chevron.com>
Subject: Safale Yeast

Jeff Bitgood remarks about the Safale yeast. I used it in a Classic American
Ale recently, and was very impressed with it. Following the directions I
made an 8 oz. slurry and pitched it into 5 gallons of SG=1.048 wort. I
didn't even bother to aerate the wort, but it began fermenting within 3
hours, had vigorous fermentation within 12 hours, and was essentially done
in 2-3 days. After 7 days in the primary  at  66 degF, the FG= 1.008. I bottled
with 1500 mg/22 oz. corn sugar (3 Prime Tabs per 22 oz. bottle). The result
is a very pleasant, low carbonation ale, beautifully clear, medium golden
color. The Safale yeast is neutral, but seems to enhance all the malt, corn
and hop flavors. It is a very good yeast which I will use much in the
future.

Larry
New Orleans (by job, not choice)


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Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:28:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: ALAN KEITH MEEKER <ameeker at welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: Oxidation / Son Of Pivo


OXIDATION:

Individual "data points" are, at best, just this. I include this one only
because there is a lot of discussion on the possibility of oxidative staling
during bottling but I'm (surprised!) to yet see anyone say "Well I tried this
too and my beer /did/ stale faster after aeration." The beer was a dry stout
and at the end of bottling I aerated the heck out of the last two 24 oz in the
bucket by swirling and repeated vigorous stirring with a slotted spoon, then
bottled. In a triangle test about 3 weeks later I could tell a clear
difference between this and the parent beer. Interestingly enough, I had Mike
Maceyka try a side-by-side comparison and he couldn't tell much difference.
All in all I am pretty well convinced that drastic aeration during bottling  
can lead to staling and that this doesn't take all that long in the bottle
either. I'm also amazed at the difference between the taste profiles I was
picking up and Mike was picking up, it seems that differences in individual
taste thresholds, etc. must also be considered as possible factors in
explaining why a beer heavilly exposed to air does not appear to be staling...


- ------------------------------
DOCTORS DOCTORS EVERYWHERE...

Alan McKay responded to my "Doctor post"


>Hmmm, I wonder.  Does spending a good portion of the last 10 or 
>so years in Czech breweries, watching and learning, count as
>"training and competence beyond the majority of laypersons"?

Yes it certainly does and it would be nice to have a good title to indicate
this. Is he a commercial brewer? If so, perhaps Masterbrewer or Headbrewer,
etc. would be appropriate. As I indicated in my previous post, titles such as
"Dr." really only indicate an increased probability that the given source will
be helpful. Certainly training AND experience count for a lot, and I'd ideally
like to be getting advice/info from someone who has BOTH (plus a pinch of
intelligence and wisdom on the side). 

>I also wonder if someone gets fooled by the title "Dr", if they
>also thought our good doctor was made of beer.  That is, afterall,
>what "pivo" means ...

Until this was ferreted out by someone I had no clue that "pivo" meant beer.
I can't believe I was the only one... 

>Once again, though, I have to ask : has anyone even bothered
>to ask the guy whether or not he does have a PhD?  I know
>from his webpage that he has 2 degrees in the sciences.

This may be, though the title was apparently being used by more than one
person. I have to stress that I wasn't slamming this particular individual
just defending Steve Alexander's point about the capricious use of titles and
that they /could/ potentially be misleading.  

 -Alan Meeker



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Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:26:04 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Fermentability of Sugars and carbohydrates

Al,

Message text written by Al Korzonas


AlK:
>Only Erik and Alana are home now, but Alexa should be coming home
within a week.  She still needs to have surgery, but that is probably
>months away.

I sincerely mean it when I say our prayers are with you, your wife and
Alexa.

>Various (non-homebrew) texts make it clear that dextrins are but  a 
small
part of body... only homebrew texts claim that dextrins are a major 
player
when it comes to body.  You are getting off the track, however.  I do
>believe you may be right with your amended statement.

DRB:

I agree that proteins give the perception of mouthfeel and that dextrins 
do
not to any great extent.  I just did not know how to say it quickly as
regards the FG and like characteristics..

>Some are, some aren't.  Draught Bass is unfiltered and 
cask-conditioned...
>I'm sure of it.

I presume Draught Bass is different from the normal Bass, since when I
lived in the UK ( a long time ago) Bass was one of the first to go to
pressurized kegs and cold delivery - and lost a lot of customers at the
time as a result.


>Dave... you are trying to complicate the issues with confusion. 

Discussing
>something with you is like trying to eat broth with a fork.

{8^)  That's a new analogy to me. I like it, but I have no mean-spirited
intention, just trying to bring in and address all the points that have
been made by others in an attempt to be fair and see how they fit into 
the
overall picture.



AlK:
>Yes, I do agree that not all priming sugar may be consumed... yes, we
shouldn't put much weight on Clinitest data from bottle-conditioned
beers either. 


 As for your inversion of sucrose... you were not getting
what you think you were...  Years ago, when I posted about this common
method for creating invert sugar, a chemist wrote me privately and
said that at the pH's we would get from a little citric acid or lemon
juice, only a fraction of the sucrose would be split into it's component
glucose and fructose.  He explained why this was done at all: because
sucrose water is unstable -- the sucrose despirately wants to crystalise.

Someone found that if you invert even a few percent of the sucrose,
the crystalisation is almost completely stopped.  So, the purpose of
making "invert sugar" (of which only a few percent were actually glucose
and fructose) was so you could store syrup and still get it to pour.
The yeast couldn't care less what you give them... invertase is so
>powerful... it will invert copious amounts of sucrose in minutes.

I agree with your chemist friend as far as citric acid is concerned but 
not
commercial brewers (invert) sugar which is pretty well completely 
inverted
by hydrochloric acid and neutralized. Using cream of tartar  ( which
decomposes to an acid at syrup boiling or cupcake baking temperatures) in

candy making is based on the principle of inverting only a small portion 
to
prevent re-crystallization. My point was simply that I didn't need to 
start
with invert sugar as indicated in those old texts , that in the days when
 I
was using sucrose to prime, I put all the priming sugar in my "kraeusen
"starter to invert it with invertase from the yeast, before I primed with

it.  Interestingly, I had forgotten why I did it until you objected on 
the
grounds that this would cause an uncertainty of how much was being used 
to
prime. when I said to myself " self, why would you do that?" Then I
remembered. Keep the sugar concentrated with the high yeast concentration

so the sugar would be inverted and not slow down the conditioning when
diluted by the beer.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley




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Cc: ajdel at mindspring.com, homebrew at brew.oeonline.com, lkbonham at hbd.org
Subject: Re: Fermentability of Sugars and carbohydrates

<

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Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 08:43:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Edwards <ale at cisco.com>
Subject: Metric Pressure Chart

For those who measure pressure in KiloPascals:

0 240 260 281 301 321 341 361 381 401
18C  124 145 166 187 207 228 249 269 290 311 331 352 372 392 413
19C  130 152 173 194 215 236 257 279 300 321 341 362 383 404 425
20C  136 158 180 202 223 245 266 288 309 331 352 373 395 416 437

 -Alan in Fremont


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Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:47:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: ALAN KEITH MEEKER <ameeker at welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: Cheese/Yeast/Enzyme denaturation/Son of Pivo


CHEESEMAKING DIGEST

"Blessed are the cheesemakers.."
- -------------------------------------
BASEMENTS

Don't know but MAN I  WISH I HAD ONE!
- --------------------------------------
YEAST STARTERS

Peter writes: 

>I've enjoyed culturing yeast for the last couple of years. I dutifully step
>up the starter for every batch (50ml - 500 - 2000ml). What would happen (at
>the 500ml size) if I poured off the liquid and fed the slurry 500ml of
>fresh wort? Would the yeast count go up or would I just have the same
>amount of yeast? Any thoughts would be appreciated.

If the fresh wort is well aerated and/or the growth is done with aeration/
air-exposure the result will be TWICE AS MUCH YEAST! 
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------

MASH THICKNESS

Paul Smith wrote: 
>The first is that beta amylase is more heat labile than alpha amylase; a very 
>thin mash, having a greater degree of thermal mass, will, at given 
>temperatures (even very low temps), tend to denature beta more quickly than a 
>thick mash at the same temperature.  This would tend to result in a less 

HUH??? Someone's going to have to explain this one to me. The denaturation of
the enzyme (all other things being equal) will depend ONLY on the temperature
not the "thermal mass" or absolute volume of the solution. If allowed to cool
then the smaller volume (thicker) mash should cool more quickly thus reducing
the time the enzyme is exposed to the higher temperature and therefore you'd
get less denaturing occuring - is this what you mean? 

Also, I said "all other things being equal" but in the described example there
are other differences besides temperature - the enzyme is more dilute in the
thinner mash and this may be contributing to decreased stability of the beta
amylase, perhaps by lessening the effect of substrate stabilization.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

PET PIVO

Wesley commented:

>refer those who get pissy about the use of the title "Doctor" to a latin
>dictionary.  The word is derived from latin and predates the existance
>of "universities" by more that a thousand years.  "Doctor" simply means
>teacher.  I don't know why it is that people have the idea that
>universities have the sole right of conferring this title.

Oh, uh, right. Forgot to check my Latin dictionary. My /English/ dictionary on
the other hand defines doctor as a "qualified medical practitioner" or a
"holder of a doctorate." If doctor means teacher than I guess I should've been
addressing all my grade-school teachers accordingly, ooops.

- ------------------------------





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Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:59:48 -0500
From: Daniel Ankeny <ankeny.3 at osu.edu>
Subject: Bass Draught Clone Recipes

Hello All, I was wondering if anyone could help me out by sending me a good
EXTRACT recipe for a BASS DRAUGHT clone.  

Thanks in Advance,

Dan


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Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 16:29:56 +0000
From: "J. Doug Brown" <jbrown at labyrinth.net>
Subject: RIMS design question

  Does anybody out there know a calculation for BTU based on cal/minute
assuming 100 percent efficiency.  I just would like to know so that I
don't undersize a RIMS heater.  What I am trying to accomplish is
properly size a heater so I can do 10 degree C temp boosts in
approximately 5 minutes, ie 2 degrees/minute.  Thanks in advance for
your response.

  Doug Brown
- -- 
       --------------------------------------------------------
      /       J. Doug Brown             Sr. Software Engineer  \
     <     jbrown at labyrinth.net            jbrown at ewa.com       >
      \ http://www.labs.net/jbrown       http://www.ewa.com    /
       --------------------------------------------------------


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Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 12:55:38 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Yankee becomes Damn Yankee, Fridge Guy Help!!

Brewsters:

At last we will be able to move into our house
in South Carolina as my wife will be purposefully
( the purpose is to get money) employed there
and we can move.  She accepted a really great
position today and we will be scurrying to get
this house sold and move by the end of August..
- ------------------------------------------
As a result, I need some advice from our
favorite fridge guy, Forrest Duddles.
For some reason, my e-mails to him are
kicked back so I include my letter to him here.
Of course, any other comments
from other HBDers would be most appreciated.

Forrest, 


I am gong to move to a great new house
and have a large section ( ~400 sq ft) of a
garage for my hobby rooms. I plan a cooler
room to keep my wine and beer, since
this is in South Carolina. I think I still have
some old working dehumidifiers ( although
I may have thrown them away?) around and
wonder if these would be useful as coolers
for my planned room.

At present, I plan to use the area under a
stairway and a possible extension of this.
Any thoughts?  The stairway is inside the
garage, but is on an outside wall,so it should
be easy to use a small air conditoner. Any
thoughts? I plan to have a cold room and
then the wines and such around the outside
on racks on the walls and under the stairs
of this main room.  The warmer room should
be in the mid-60s and the cooler room around
55F or colder.  This should allow beer
( lager 50 - 55F or lower, 60 - 65 ales)
fermentation, white wine fermentation
55 -60F and wine storage at 65F The outer
room will call for coolth by a fan removing
air from the cooler room to the warmer
room and the cooler room will have a
temperature controller which will call an
air conditioner.  Is 50degF a reasonable
temperature for the cooler room using an
air conditioner?  How can I get it to run this
cool? How about cycle times and the like?
The volume of the room will be about 200
plus cubic feet with a portion of the room at 10'.
Imagine a solid triangular room
10hX10wX4d ( 200 cuft) and perhaps with a
10hX6wX4d' extension.  240 cu ft max extension

Possible plans are to make the rectangular
section as the cooler room with R30 insulation
( vapor barrier?) and the other room with
normal R18?(Vapor Barrier?) Plans are
to put the air conditioner up high in the
rectangular section.

I have a similar stairs  arrangement here
and it works fine with a cooled basement to
keep the wines cool.  I make lager in the
winter in an anteroom here in NJ, but can't
count on it there, so I will need some
additional area to cool.  Any other thoughts?.

Thanks for your comments!

BTW it has been substantially cooler and
less humid in SC than in NJ these past weeks!

Keep on Brewin'


Dave Burley

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Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 14:01:42 -0400
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: Reasons for brewing in the Great White North

I'll have to agree - for the most part - with what Doug O'Brien
says about reasons for brewing up here.  Though I personally got
started for quality reasons, I am in the minority here.

Also note that not only do a lot of people up here use the 
BOP (Brew On Premise), but we invented the thing.  It started
here in Ontario specifically to combat high beer prices at
the beer store.

cheers,
 -Alan

- --
Alan McKay
OS Support			amckay at nortelnetworks.com
Small Site Integration		613-765-6843 (ESN 395)
Nortel Networks
Internal : http://zftzb00d/alanmckay/
All opinions expressed are my own.


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Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 14:21:17 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: HB party nomination/other stuff

page down now - that is an order -

AlanM and I have come to some sort of understanding I think.   We both agree
that errors are repeatedly propagated (and re-propagated) here and within
local HB communities.  We, in the end, agree that "dogma" is a misapplied
term.  We disagree on the source of these errors. (hope that's a fair
statement Alan).

I wonder why no FAQ has ever appeared covering the basics.  Al Korzonas,
before he became a busy father of 3 was tireless in tracking down and
stamping out many of these errors.  He once suggested setting up a website
listing known errata and also doubtful or unclear points from common HB
books, but was shouted down for such negativity.  Unfortunately that leaves
each of us to construct an incomplete list of our own.

Jim writes
>Cheers, and Renner for President.....jim booth, lansing, mi
Same here - he's got my vote and I'd like to nominate AlK for dogma catcher,
tho' I think a better title is deserved.

==

Bob Uhl - who avoids technology with a zealot's fervor even hoping to forego
thermometers, hydrometers and pH meters in the mash.  Good luck Bob -
sincerely.  You have chosen a very difficult path with no apparent potential
for advantage.  Perhaps you'll discover something new which everyone else
overlooks - I doubt it but sincerely do not dismiss it.

Why not gain some of that non-technological brewing experience you want and
then report back on your findings instead of dumping on people who choose a
different path ?  Why not stop theorizing about the advantages and
dismissing the critics when your first all-grain beer is still in the
fermentor and has problems ?   Why ask questions of others about your
krausen problem when your experience will, as you claim, answer the question
?

Poor krausen, no measurements - what does your experience tell you now ?
Perhaps that tools and technology are useful for diagnosis and learning ? Of
course not !

As for the 'Chefs don't need technology' argument - nonsense.  Food methods
provide a lot more sensory feedback that a mash tun, but I know of no
respectable chef who would trust his intuition for temperature when using a
new roasting oven and the careful measurement of water in dough.  Certain
things in cooking and brewing are less forgiving than others and measurement
tools are needed.

Similarly - mash differences of a few tenths in pH or 5F temp make a big
difference in the beer and yet are inaccessible to the senses w/o a
reference or a thermometer/pH meter.  You will find this out once you
actually have some of that experience you exalt.

 -S




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Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 19:55:40 +0100
From: "Nigel Porter" <nigel at sparger.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Why Homebrew

Douglas O'Brien said

>Note that in Canada a typical mass market beer (e.g. Molson 
>Export) costs about C$1.30 (US$0.88) a bottle, and that premium 
>(local or regional brewery) beers are 1.5X that cost.

What size of bottle is that (I'm in the UK & havn't got a clue if you 
have a standard bottle size over there)? I rarely buy beer to drink at 
home, but a pint down the pub costs around UKP2.00

>Most *home* brewers that I know [in Canada] use cost as the main 
>factor, with quality second.  
>As an all-grain brewer I am, by far, the exception rather than the 
>rule.
>I suspect the other countries, i.e., U.K., are the same, and that the
>U.S. is somewhat unique!


There is some element of cost in the reasonings of quite a few 
brewers, but amongst all the brewers that I know the search for 
quality and experimentation with ingredients is the driving force.
Again most of the brewers that I know are all grain brewers, but I 
know that there is a very large population of kit and extract brewers 
here. Some of the kit & extract manufacturers are now going to 
great lengths to provide us with top quality kits and premium malt 
extracts, which again all assist in the production of quality beer - the
cheap and nasty homebrew kit which produces thin tatsteless (apart 
from That Nasty Homeberw Tatse) is still a common occurance over 
here.
All the retailers that I know do their best to encourage people into the
use of quality ingredients, over cheap ones - another step towards 
quality over cost. Somewhere along the line the aim for quality is 
there, but there is still a portion of the market who are after cheap 
beer.

Nigel
Brewing in Guildford



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Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 15:42:54 EDT
From: SClaus4688 at aol.com
Subject: pesticide for hops

In HBD #3086 (7/19/99), John Stegenga suggests using Diazanon to control 
beetles on hops.  

If you are planning on using the hops in beer, and the plants currently have 
cones on them, I would caution against using any pesticide.  Think about the 
process: hop cones generally hang on the vine until ripe and are then picked, 
dried and packaged.  Later, they are unpackaged and thrown into wort.  Unlike 
most fruits and vegetables, hop cones are usually not washed at any time 
prior to use.  As a result, there is a chance that, if you spray pesticides 
on the cones now, you will be tossing pesticide residue into your wort later.

Of course, ingestion of pesticides could negatively affect your level of hop 
derived estrogen ....  

 -Steve Claussen in PDX


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Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 15:59:36 -0500
From: John.Wilkinson at aud.alcatel.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: cheese

With Jack Schmidling and others discussing cheese I am reminded of Monty
Python and the Holy Grail.  "Blessed are the cheese makers ...".

Also, cutting the cheese will have at least two meanings here.

John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas


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Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 19:53:10 +0000
From: kurt at greennet.net (Kurt Goodwin)
Subject: Safale back to back

Jeff Bitgood said:

"I plan on doing a split batch of American Pale, one half at 65F, the
other up in the kitchen at the mercy of the weather"  with Safale to
test it's sensitivity to temperature.

I ran a double batch (5 gal + 5 gal) of pale ale 10 days ago.  Put one
down to ferment with Safale (I heard good things about it as well), one
down with a 1 pint starter of Wyeast 1098.  I ferment things out in the
basement where it NEVER gets above 72F.  Except the heat wave over the
last 2 weeks when it got up over 80.  

Tha Safale fermented like a rocket and dropped clear in the primary
after only a few days.  The Whitbread yeast batch went much more slowly.

Don't know how estery a batch this will be - let you know when I muster
the courage.

Slainte

Kurt Goodwin


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Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 22:02:14 -0400
From: "Galloway" <galloway at gtcom.net>
Subject: Obsessing on Oxidation. . . 

Greetings All,
    Depending on the style of beer depends on how it gets treated prior to
priming and bottling. In the summer months, or if a beer is going to be in
the bottle for awhile I will add 150 to 300 mgs. of ascorbic acid to the
water being boiled for the priming sugar for a 5 gallon batch. If O2
intrusion is a problem it seems that the ascorbic acid will be oxidized
before the beer itself. This practice has served me well over the years.
    What I'm looking for is some advice/direction to clone the Rogue YSB. My
God what a beer! We are looking for that big malt explosion in the start.
Any ideas???

Regards,

Dave Galloway



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Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 21:07:14 -0700
From: The Holders <zymie at sprynet.com>
Subject: Glycol?

I've recently acquired a small glycol chiller. Now I'm wondering what
the heck do I put in it? Do I just go to a refrigeration supply and ask
for glycol, or is there a trade name for the stuff?

TIA, 

Wayne Holder AKA Zymie
Long Beach CA

http://andinator.com/zymico


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Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 15:04:28 +1000
From: Petr Otahal <potahal at postoffice.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Roller mill questions

Hi all

Im building a roller mill from two stainless shaft sections (4-5" diam,
2-3" length), and Ive looked through some old HBD articles but couldn't
find answers to these questions:
What range of gap size should I have (if I make it adjustable), and if not
adjustable what is the best allround gap size?
Do both rollers need to be powered, or can I get away with just having one
powered and one free??
Do I need knurling on rollers of this diameter?

Many thanks

Petr




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Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 07:09:05 -0400
From: Jim Liddil <jliddil at vms.arizona.edu>
Subject: Vote your opinion

The canning of Brian Rezac is yet another thing one can add to the "Stupid
AHA Tricks" FAQ.  I  suggest all that care abou the AHA and it's policies
let the AHA and it's BofA kow what you think.  I believe Ken Scharamm, Dae
Houseman and Rob Moilne are three such induhviudals.  I personally see this
as yet another stupid thing.  Brian was helpful and never got upset with my
constant raggin on the AHA/AOB.  He provided prompt service and help.  I
ask the reps to let the AHA know what the "members" think.  I suggest that
a boycott of the AHA conference be carried out.  I know the conference is
now meant to be run by local groups etc. but it is still an AHA event.
Support the MCAB.  Let's put the screws to the AHA and make the NHC a
non-event in the year 2000.  Make a statement. Oh and I want to see the
latest info on the AOB taxes and charlies salry on the AOB web site ASAP.
:-)

Jim Liddil




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Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 15:00:04 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: basements ?

Someone suggested that basements were for storm cellar use,... seems
unlikely since they are prevalent in the NE and well beyond the tornado
plagued plains.

Someone else that stoney soil was the reason for their lack.  I have seen
basement excavation in the Pittsburgh area apparently quarried or blasted
out of solid granite !!

In the north the necessity for central heat, is a big part of the issue.
Coal chutes exist in homes built as recently as the 1920s.  The circulating
air ducted systems typically require a cool reservoir and return at the low
points.  I suspect passive hot water systems have a similar requirement. Oil
fired furnaces w/ storage on lower basement levels are common in rural
areas.  The basement furnace solves these problems.  Slab  (and half
basement) construction is allowed and common for small commercial
structures. so frostline concerns are probably not the root cause.

I've seen some homes from the mid 1800s here and they do have
basements/cellars FWIW.

 -S




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Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 21:25:58 +1000
From: "Phil and Jill Yates" <yates at flexgate.infoflex.com.au>
Subject: Newbies For Breakfast???

Thomas Murray recently posted an article titled as above. He stated:
""Phil and Jill Yates brought up the subjects of HBD posting fear...

 ...They said: " the HBD is regarded by many potential contributors
as something of a lions den, that is to say that you can expect to be
shredded if you dare to get involved"

He also stated:
"Please someone, show us the last time a "newbie" was torn limb from limb on
this digest. I have always been impressed by the patience and respect that
new brewers are given here."

Thomas, can I call you Tom? Let's get a little bit friendly here. Firstly, I
do not appreciate the suggestion that Jill is helping me out with my posts.
In fact in line with general HBD policy I am extremely infuriated by your
comment and may just well report it to the police!
Secondly, I don't know about the last time but if you continue to insult me
I will definitely demonstrate how (for the first time) to tear a newbie from
limb to limb.

Happy Brewing
Phil Yates.





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Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 11:35:08 +0000
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Jap. Beetle/Tip from Commercial Brewing

Ian Smith wants to know if I can tell him what a Japanese Beetle looks
like.
Yes, yes I can. In detail. I see them in my nightmares. Anyway, there is

a lovely photo at
http://www.ent.iastate.edu/imagegal/coleoptera/
Go to scarab beetles. I'd put the address of the particular image but
its over 80 characters and gets rejected.  Not an unattractive bug,
really,  considering the damage they do.I'd say they are a little less
than a cm long (no scale on the photo).

Tip of the day from commericial brewing -  Fobbing:
Today's tip was stimulated by Dean Fikar's post yesterday concerning
capping on foam. The unbelievably expensive bottle fillers used by
commercial brewers use this technique (and others) to minimize headspace

air. They do it by injecting a squirt of beer or water into the neck
just before the cap goes on. Some machines simply rap the bottle.
Obviously, you can do either of these things when counter-pressure
filling. Rapping is easier requiring only a hard object to rap with. A
squirt of beer can be obtained from a syringe but you'd have to worry
about keeping it and the supply of beer  or water you draw up with it
sanitary. Squirting and rapping both obviously require that the beer be
well carbonated.

- --
A. J. deLange
Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore.




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Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 07:59:03 EDT
From: KTNeall at aol.com
Subject: Leaving AHA

I've spent most of my homebrewing career as a member of the AHA. I kept 
renewing my membership because I felt that the organization was slowly 
changing for the better. Brian was the major driving force behind these 
positive changes. I am angry as hell that he has been summarily dismissed. 
Along with him, I will go. My membership come up for renewal in a couple 
months. I will throw my renewal card in the trash. I cannot continue to 
support an organization that does not work in the best interests of its 
members. 

Tim Neall 


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Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 08:02:51 -0400
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: Does the AOB owe an explanation?

Not to me they don't, because I cancelled my subscription
long ago for exactly this sort of reason.

But if you are still paying dues to that organization, you're
GD right they owe you an explanation, and if I were you I'd
demand one!

cheers,
 -Alan

- --
Alan McKay
OS Support			amckay at nortelnetworks.com
Small Site Integration		613-765-6843 (ESN 395)
Nortel Networks
Internal : http://zftzb00d/alanmckay/
All opinions expressed are my own.


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Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 08:21:31 -0500
From: "SCHNEIDER,BRETT" <SCHNEIDERB at morganco.com>
Subject: Ring Burners Needed - not complete brewstands

I have been searching the internet and emailing suppliers and hb shops
looking to buy only the cast ring burners and hoses w/regulators for adding
to my new brewstand. But so far no luck finding them as loose parts. Any
recommendations or sources people know of for these things?

	- brett


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Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 07:54:44 -0500
From: "Sieben, Richard" <SIER1 at Aerial1.com>
Subject: hop utilization by style

larry land  asked about hop utilization by style, 
	I was wondering the same thing until I got the Daniels book on
designing great beers.  While it does not cover all varieties of hops, it
does give some historical reference about what hops may have been used in
the style and also shows and analysis of malts and hops used in a sample of
winning recipes.  You can use this as a guideline and make your own calls
from there.  Another good source is the Garetz book on hops, it covers the
most commonly found hops and can give you a feel for their uses,
similarities and disimilarities.  I use both these books to determine what
hops I would like to use and what substitutes I can use if need be (like the
brew store doesn't have EKG, but they have Fuggles so that may be close
enough).

Rich Sieben

Just west of Lake County in Northeast Nowhere Illinois


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---