---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Re: Clinitest eat your heart out (Matthew Comstock)
  Mr Panther Used To Drink Beer? ("Phil and Jill Yates")
  Repressive Florida Bottle Law (Mark Tumarkin)
  Re: CO2 measurement (Matthew Comstock)
  When to transplant hops ("Sieben, Richard")
  Announcing Dayton Brewfest (Steven Zabarnick)
  Minikegs, Pumping and Rehydration (Dan Listermann)
  Decoupling mag drive pumps ("S. Wesley")
  CPVC in mash/lauter tuns--Here's what I use ("Peter J. Calinski")
  Cell Density For Pitching (Brad Miller)
  Wort Degradation Due to Pumping (Kirk.Fleming)
  RE: pressure cookers ("Scott Moore")
  Parti-Gyle Brewing ("Uhl, Bob.")
  Slowing a pump's flow rate (Matt Birchfield)
  Re: smartass dry yeast answer (Tim Anderson)
  Dry Yeast Storage & Use (Darryl Newbury)
  Mint Chocolate Stout ("Eric R. Theiner")
  re: Repressive Florida Bottle Law (Mark Tumarkin)
  Yeast Lifespans (David Lamotte)
  more inane ramblings... ("Eric Panther")


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Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 22:50:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Matthew Comstock <mccomstock at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Clinitest eat your heart out

Hey, a link to the article I just mentioned, describing visual
determination of saccharides, from Robert M. Strongin, is at:

http://pubs.acs.org/isubscribe/journals/orlef7/
jtext.cgi?orlef7/1/i02/html/ol990105a.html.

(combine this http address into one, the hbd server bounced it because
is contained too many characters.)

Matt Comstock in Cincinnati
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



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Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 20:32:21 +1000
From: "Phil and Jill Yates" <yates at flexgate.infoflex.com.au>
Subject: Mr Panther Used To Drink Beer?

     I recently posted with a question to Mr Eric Panther on some fairly
convoluted suggestions he had for brewing beer. The only answer I received
was that he didn't even drink beer!
     But now Mr Panther enlightens us a little. Telling us:
". I was eating cold mutton and sipping steinbier for
months afterwards (before I stopped drinking beer of course)

I hate steinbier and mutton now..

Eric Panther."

     Well Eric, I am not surprised that after this exercise you have in fact
gone right off your beer. Further more, if I felt obliged to engage in some
of your obsessive brewing techniques I am sure I would be put off as well.
Did you know Sir Edmund climbed Mt Everest to escape the risks of HSA (he
was a homebrewer) but unfortunately discovered his propane burner did not
work well at nearly 30,000 ft?
     I was under the impression that you were in fact a "septic tank" but
recent comments by you would hint at some other vague nationality. Don't
wish to sound rude but your posts puzzle me. Looking forward to seeing you
draw scientific swords and maybe have a dual to the death with Steve
Alexander. No offence Steve but this guy is showing some nasty potential. I
just hope you aren't going to tell us all you don't drink beer either!

Cheers
Phil Yates






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Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 06:45:46 -0400
From: Mark Tumarkin <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Repressive Florida Bottle Law

Hey y'all,

Pardon me for taking up a fair piece of bandwidth, but I think it's
really important. This is mainly directed to any other HBD reader's in
Florida, but if the rest of you want to take the time out to send an
email that would be fantastic. Florida has some really repressive bottle

laws limiting the size of beer bottles/containers that can be sold in
the state. This dates back to the mid-60's as part of concessions to get

AB to put a bottling plant in Fl and thus bring jobs to the state. The
law restricts the sale to only container sizes that the big boys use and

prohibits 7 oz, 22 oz, metric sizes, etc. This obviously restricts the
availability of microbrews and imports.

According to John's letter (see following), there is a move in the state

legislature to investigate whether this should be changed - this is not
legislation, but it is an important first step by the people that
decide what legislation is likely to happen.

I'd like to ask you all to take the time to write to the legislators and
let them know that the
public wants this changed. I will go onto the state web site and dig up
the appropriate email addresses, so if you are interested please email
me privately and I'll forward them on to you. Even if you are not
politically active, I think that you can get behind this issue. At the
least, it is non-partisan  - unless we start a Beer Party. You're
invited!

Thanks,
Mark Tumarkin
Primary Fermenter,  Hogtown Brewers
Gainesville, Fl



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Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 05:35:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Matthew Comstock <mccomstock at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: CO2 measurement

Spencer W. Thomas provided some back of the envelope calculations
concerning evolved CO2.  I started from a different angle.  Instead of
calculating moles of sugar -> CO2, I estimated how many bubbles per
second (BPS!) I observe during a typical fermentation.  By measuring
the rate of fermentation at different points you could numerically
integrate to find the total amount of CO2 evolved.  I just decided that
a average ferment was about 1 BPS for 24 h (easier to integrate a
rectangle).  So how much volume is each airlock bubble? I decided about
2 mL.  This leads to a little over 300 g and about 170 L of gas.  The
calculations all depend on the value you use for 'volume of an airlock
bubble' and how many bubbles you get during a fermentation.  But, by
monitoring BPS you wouldn't need to collect the gas, just record
airlock activity over the course of the ferment and integrate.  Then
you could back calculate to determine the amount of sugar consumed. 
Knowing the initial gravity, you could calculate the final gravity.

Or you could just drink a beer and watch the bubbles.

Matt Comstock in Cincinnati

_________________________________________________________
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Get your free  at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



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Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 07:48:16 -0500
From: "Sieben, Richard" <SIER1 at Aerial1.com>
Subject: When to transplant hops

Jeff Woods asked when is the best time to transplant hops, I think early
spring, late winter is the answer.  As soon as the frost is out of the
ground well enough to work the soil.  But, I transplanted some hops this
year in April, after there were already shoots on the plant and it does not
seem to have harmed the plant (Cascade).  Maybe they are only commercially
available in the spring so it doesn't affect the current year's crop and the
hop growers are just thinning out rhizomes anyway in the spring so that the
hop yard doesn't become a tangled mass.  You may as well let it finish off
the year where it is at and get whatever production you can out of it this
year and just mess with it in the spring.

Rich Sieben
Island Lake mini hop ranch
42deg 16min
88deg 12min


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Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 09:03:17 -0400
From: Steven Zabarnick <zabarnick at udri.udayton.edu>
Subject: Announcing Dayton Brewfest

The Dayton Regional Amateur Fermentation Technologists (say that three
times fast!) are proud to announce the Fourth Annual Dayton Beerfest
Homebrew Competition, which will be held September 11th at the Thirsty Dog
Brewing Company. Detailed information along with on-line entry and judge
registration can be found at our web site: http://hbd.org/draft (thanks Pat
and HBD!).

Send your entries! Come help us judge! Join the fun!

Steve Zabarnick
zabarnick at udri.udayton.edu
Dayton, OH




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Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 09:07:51 -0400
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Minikegs, Pumping and Rehydration

Tom Lombardo ( toml at ednet.cc.il.us) asks about tapping CO2 cartridges for

German minikeg taps.  My advice is to screw the cartridge in as fast as 
you
can.  A little keg lub on the threads of the housing helps a lot.  A 
little
dab of keg lub on the tip of the cartridge will make a better seal.

Your local retain store can get Phil's Relieph Bungs and the newly
introduced Philtap by just calling us at (513) 731-1130 or through e-mail
 


*******************************************************

On the subject of throttling the flow of pumps causing problems, why not
install a bypass circuit so the pump can work normally while a small flow

is teed off for use?

******************************************

Yeast rehydration is a subject I hear a lot about in my shop.  I use a 
lot
of dry yeast due to my poor planning abilities and can't recall a batch
that didn't take off, but I don't rehydrate.  It works just fine without
rehydration.

I frequently have customers complain that their yeast didn't take off. 

Usually they are using a bucket that has a leaky lid and everything is 
just
fine.  Sometimes the yeast truly didn't take off and frequently they tell

me that they "even rehydrated their yeast."  I am very sure that
rehydrating yeast is best from a biological perspective, but from a
practice perspective there seems to be problems.  I suspect mismeasured
water temperatures and temperature shock when pitching.  Frankly, dry 
yeast
works very well without rehydration and for many brewers the advantages 
of
rehydration are outweighed by the risk of screwing it up, so I tell my
customers to not bother with it.  Perhaps better rehydration instructions

are in order.

Dan Listermann    dan at listermann.com    72723.1707 at compuserve.com

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Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 09:37:22 -0400
From: "S. Wesley" <Wesley at brandeis.edu>
Subject: Decoupling mag drive pumps

Hi Folks,
     In HBD #3108-2  Fred Willis wrote the following in response to Kirk
Flemming's statement that the impeller in a mag drive pump is "is
turning at its full speed, basically churning the wort even more than it
would if the flow rate were
unrestricted."

"This is an incorrect assumption, and may be why we don't see the
degradation
suggested.  When the flow is restricted by a valve in the outflow,
slippage
takes place at the magnetic coupling to the impeller which reduces the
tourque applied and impeller speed."

I have to agree with Kirk on this one Fred.  The slip that is discussed
in the literature of induction motors is not slip between the magnets in
the magnetic coupling, it refers to the slip angle of the armature.
When an induction motor is loaded it increases its torque by increasing
the slip angle.  The beauty of the magnetic coupling is that when the
torque starts to get high enough to overload the motor, the coupling
lets go and the motor runs in essentially a no load situation.
For the most part induction motors can only run at one speed determined
by the line voltage and frequency for which they are designed.  There
are ways around this, but this is the basic reason why we control flow
rates by restricting the flow instead of  the pump speed.   The scenario
you suggest requires that the impeller magnet will couple and de-couple
with the drive magnet roughly 30 times (assuming 3600 RPM) a second when
the pump is pumping at half the normal flow rate.  Virtually no torque
can be delivered under these conditions.   In fact what actually happens
is that once the pump de-couples you usually need to stop it to
re-establish the magnetic coupling.

By the way, the idea that mouthfeel will be noticibly affected by pumps
seems a bit unlikely to me but don't let that stop people from arguing
for a few weeks about this and calling each other nasty names|:^)

                                    Cheers!
                                     Simon

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.



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Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 10:09:59 -0400
From: "Peter J. Calinski" <PCalinski at iname.com>
Subject: CPVC in mash/lauter tuns--Here's what I use

I picked up a length of plastic hose from my home-brew shop (3/8" I
believe) and a plastic barbed "T" of matching diameter from Home Despot.  I
cut a longer piece of the hose such that it goes from one of the top bars
of the T, around in a circle and on to the other top bar of the T.  Its
length is such that the diameter of the circle it forms is about 2/3 that
of the lauter tun.  I cut another length of hose such that it goes from the
down-spout part of the T across the bottom of the tun to the outlet.  I
then punched an appropriate number of holes ( 1/8 inch holes every 1/2 inch
if I remember right) in both hoses.  Experiment with water to get in the
ball park for flow rate. It should be a lot faster than you want so you can
throttle the flow externally.

I just put it in the tun, hole side down, and stick the straight piece of
hose into the outlet of the tun.  The fit is pretty tight.  I am not
concerned with a little leakage at the joint or at the T although I doubt
there is any.

I have used it for 8 or 9 brews without any problems.

Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY
0 Degrees 30.21 Min North, 4 Degrees 05.11 Min. East of Jeff Renner


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Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 08:17:43 -0800
From: Brad Miller <millerb at targen.com>
Subject: Cell Density For Pitching

	Does anyone know what would be considered the optimal pitching rate
in cells/L?  Actual numbers please, not " As many as you can get".  Thanks
in advance.

Brad




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Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 10:25:01 -0500
From: Kirk.Fleming at born.com
Subject: Wort Degradation Due to Pumping

Several folks responded to my post re: shear on wort and it seems like a
wonderful topic with an extremely high momily potential (P-sub-m).
Referencing some of the comments in no particular order:

Although viscosity is lowered for some liquids subjected to shear, no one
gave any indication this is a permanent transformation due to structural
change (as has been suggested as the case for wort).

Someone asked what commercial breweries use--based on observation they are
almost exclusively centrifugal pumps, although not paddlewheels but rather
the fancier helical turbine kind of fin design.  A professional brewer wrote
in HBD a fews years back that he used a diaphragm pump (this is the same
brewer who wrote about the topic of shear in the first place).

Those who responded all agreed: they have not determined any degradation of
product quality due to even continuous pumping.  Nor have I.

Kirk Fleming
FRSL, FRSE


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Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 12:17:59 -0400
From: "Scott Moore" <smoore at koyousa.com>
Subject: RE: pressure cookers

Eric wrote -

Where does one find a 17-22qt pressure cooker/canner? My local Wal-Mart
and Meijer only have 12qt ones.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- --------------------------------

I ordered a Presto 22 qt. pressure cooker/canner last week from
http://www.mall21.com for $75 plus shipping.  I did a search and that was
the lowest price I could find on the web. (eBay had the bidding for the
exact same item up to $83 ?!?).  It arrived in a couple of days, drop
shipped directly from Presto.  I'm hoping to try it out next week on a
Skullsplitter clone.

Scott Moore
(still unnamed brewery)
Medina, Ohio



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Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 10:59:36 -0600
From: "Uhl, Bob." <buhl at CoBank.com>
Subject: Parti-Gyle Brewing

I have received several replies from brewers regarding parti-gyle brewing.
Unfortunately, I have just changed computers and my mail archives are in a
bit of limbo atm (they are tarred and gzipped from my Linux box, but I am
now on a Windows computer [temporarily] wh. doesn't like them, even when
using WinZip).  However, I will summarise from memory.

Several people have tried it  Most start with a barleywine or strong ale.  I
do not believe that any remashed (yes, it's not _really_ another mash, but
that's what it's called); it seems that they take the first runnings and
then sparge for the next batch.  I don't recall any who start with a more
usual beer and then make a weaker beer of less quality and alcohol.  That
may be my faulty memory, of course.  It may be that this might be possible
with a remash technique to pull out even more sugars from the grains.  I
don't know that I'd bet on it, though.

As a method to get two qualities of the same beer it doesn't seem terribly
useful; one would end up with spending as much as for two batches, with one
slightly better and one slightly worse than would be made seperately.  Why
make worse beer than normal?  The only real advantage seems to lie in terms
of convenience and time; instead of doing two seperate mashes either
together or in sequence, one performs a single mash.  Not a terribly
compelling reason IMHO.

There is an excellent article at Brewing Techniques by Randy Mosher
(http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue2.2/mosher.html)
which goes into some detail concerning the process.  I reccommend it to
those who are interested.

I do not believe that anyone who replied to my query made a third runnings
beer.  Again, this may be faulty memory on my part.  From what I have read
in the rec.org.sca archives, though, this makes good sense: it seems that
period mashing techniques were very primitive.  I recall one instance where
the fellow measured an eff, of 17 where he usually gets (I believe) 29!  So
multiple 'mashes' and runnings would make sense to dissolve and redissolve
sugars in the grains.  Also, it does not look as though a mash out was
performed, so the secondary and tertiary 'mashes' may have had some effect
vis-a-vis enzymes and sugars and all that.

Having said all this, I am still keen to try my hand at it.  I have a
feeling, though, that modern mash efficiencies make parti-gyle brewing a bit
unnecessary for all but the strongest batches of beer (e.g. barleywines and
strong ales).  Disappointing, but there it is.  Of course, making gallons of
small beer might not be a bad thing either.  It might be interesting to have
a beer that can be drunk all day long with little effect.  I might finally
be able to stop drinking water:-)

Thanks to all who replied.  Corrections to any of this material are, as
always, solicited and appreciated.

Bob Uhl


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Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 13:27:32 -0400
From: Matt Birchfield <peridot at usit.net>
Subject: Slowing a pump's flow rate

Hi Group,

I am going to buy a pump to use with my 2-tier system and was
wondering if anybody knew of a pump that has variable flow/speed
settings, or a method to alter the rate of flow without choking the
outflow tubing with a valve? Obviously I don't want to damage the pump
either.

Any advice/help/referrals?  Anybody experimented with things like
dimmer switches?

Thanks in advance,

Matt
NRV, Virginia



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Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 11:33:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tim Anderson <timator at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: smartass dry yeast answer

Bayer, Mark A wrote:
>>>
brad wrote:

<snip>I brewed a nice Nut brown this weekend and used dry yeast and
>dehydrated 2 packages per the instructions on the back 105 deg for 15
min's. <snip> Did I kill the yeast? It kinda seems like it.

dehydrating dried yeast is a questionable practice, typically not
conducive
to getting good results.  i'd say those instructions for dehydration
are
faulty.  just a guess.
<<<

Mark, you call that a smartass answer?  You simply disagree with the
instructions.  This is a smartass answer:

Brad, they meant 105 Fahrenheit!

tim





_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com



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Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 16:37:34 +0000
From: darryl at sagedesign.com (Darryl Newbury)
Subject: Dry Yeast Storage & Use

I have to concur with some of the comments that Rob Moline made regarding
the use of Lallemand dried yeast. I've had some yeast which came directly
from the producer which were donated to the Canadian Amateur Brewer's
Assocation to distribute at our conference in May. The samples I took
home, and used, were immediatedly stored properly and then used over the
past couple of months. 

I've had no problems with the yeast, with fermentation taking off between
2 and 8 hours.  Incidentally, I followed the rehydration instructions and
chose to pitch two packages on every occasion. 

Back to the comments on storage though. Not long ago I was in a wine
making supply shop which just had a small selection of beer kits and
ingredients. Out on a counter I had the choice of purchasing Nottingham
dried yeast in different types of packaging and of different ages. 49
cents Canadian for the really old stuff, 69 cents for the pretty old stuff
and 99 cents for the new stuff. I think this attests to the importance of
buying your supplies from a reputable homebrew supplier. By the way, I
chose not to purchase anything from that shop.

Finally, I also agree with Rob's comments about the quality of their
product (at least the Nottingham and London strains which I've used) as
the beers I've made with them are generally of the same good quality as
the beer that I've made with Wyeast or Yeastlab products. 

Darryl Newbury
Toronto, Ontario



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Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 17:21:04 -0700
From: "Eric R. Theiner" <logic at skantech.com>
Subject: Mint Chocolate Stout

I did this-- I called my creation "Peppermint Patty Stout."

My method of infusing the mint was simply through the use of grocery
store extract added to the secondary.  If you want to be a purist and
use the actual mint, I have been toying with an idea which may work in
this case.

Try putting your mint leaves in a food processor or blender with enough
PGA to wet them, then pulse until you have a pulp.  Then add the whole
mess into your fermenter.  The PGA should serve as a solvent to hold the
mint oil and help bring it into solution in your beer, and the cellulose
material (the leaves) will hopefully settle to the bottom.

Just a thought.

Rick Theiner
LOGIC, Inc.




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Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 20:02:19 -0400
From: Mark Tumarkin <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: re: Repressive Florida Bottle Law

I posted about a letter I had gotten from John Larsen of the N. Fl
Brewers League, concerning possible legislation to remove or change the
repressive Fl bottle law. I tried to send his letter as a separate post
but it bounced for having non-ASCII characters. Maybe just as well cause
it was long and might not have been of interest to y'all.

So for those of you that are interested and want to know more, or are
willing to write to the Fl legislators to let them know that we want
this law repealed, email me privately and I will forward a copy of
John's letter to you. I'll also send you URL's for the web pages with
the names and email addresses of the Fl legislators.

It's bad enough living in the Southern Beer Wasteland (although that
seems to be changing, we've certainly got some great homebrewers and are
starting to get some good brewpubs) but not even being able to buy the
variety of beer that is available to most of the rest of the country is
rediculous and unnecessary. Please help us change that.

Mark Tumarkin
Gainesville, Fl



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Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 14:32:18 +1000
From: David Lamotte <lamotted at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Yeast Lifespans

WARNING: The following post solicits information of a scientific nature
without any direct relevance to receipe formulation or beer drinking.

Every discussion that I have read on fermentation talks about yeast
growth phases and fermentation rates ( Lag, Logarithmic, High Krausen
etc).  These are usually illustrated by graphs showing yeast
populations, extract reduction and ph changes.

But one thing that I have never heard mentioned, is how long does a
yeast cell actually live ?  Is it 1 hr, 1 day or until the food runs out
? If we keep feeding them, how long until they die of old age ?  I could
imagine that under ideal conditions we would end up with a significant
proportion of the population just floating around looking very wrinkled
and scared from a lifetime of reproduction.

And to ask a delicate question, when do they start to bud, and once they
start, how often do they do it ?

Are most of the viable cells  that were present when we snipped the top
off the smack pack, still happily chewing on the dextrins when we bottle
? Or is it their kids or grandkids that produce the carbonation ?

While this probably doesn't directly affect how a beer tastes, I am
interested to know how quickly the population grows during starter
preparation.

Thanks

David Lamotte
Brewing Down Under in Newcastle N.S.W. Australia







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Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 14:27:07 +1000
From: "Eric Panther" <epanther at somelab.com>
Subject: more inane ramblings...

Well, well, I certainly seem to have raised the ire of one Phil Yates!

>Well Eric,

That's Dr. Panther to you Phil*.

>I am not surprised that after this exercise you have in fact
>gone right off your beer.

No, the bleeding ulcer and gout did that! I am currently into virtual
brewing and virtual drinking. Much healthier for the temple that is my body
than the real thing. And what better place to practice this than on the
greatest resource on brewing in the universe? (There's an idea, the HBD
should be transmitted by high power radio into outer space, so all the
aliens can benefit from its wisdom too. then on "first contact" we could
exchange beers). Virtual brewing also enables me to use the most
sophisticated techniques available, and its a heck of a lot easier than the
real thing. But you can bet that if I did actually brew, I surely would use
these techniques!

For example, I detest the idea of all my malt just sitting there and
oxidising for weeks before using it. So then I started storing it in a shed
filled just with nitrogen, then later buying it directly from the virtual
maltster as I needed it. Then I realised that the virtual malster was
oxidising the malt during the malting process. So she no longer does this
and malts it in an inert atmosphere as well. My beer has never been better!

>Did you know Sir Edmund climbed Mt Everest to escape the risks of HSA (he
>was a homebrewer) but unfortunately discovered his propane burner did not
>work well at nearly 30,000 ft?

This is completely false and you know it, Phil! As every school child knows,
Sir Edmund did not take his propane burner all the way to the top of
Everest. He actually left it at the base camp. This is why he succeeded - he
didn't have to lug it all the way to the top. All the previous attempts were
by climbers trying to take their burners all the way up. It just can't be
done. Then of course there were all those sad "accidents" of climbers going
for the oxygen mask, only to get a lungful of propane...

I prefer the story about Captain Cook being a homebrewer. He was under the
misapprehension that beer prevented scurvy. So he brewed for his crew all
the time. Of course, all his seamen knew that beer had nothing to do with
scurvy prevention, but nobody ever told him. Would you?

>I was under the impression that you were in fact a "septic tank"

HEY NOW! No name calling... you... you ... urinal you!

As for Steve Alexander... come on Steve... do ya' worst! I'm ready for you!
Come on!

Eric Panther

* I have a Phd in idiocy from the Virtual University, you know.



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