HOMEBREW Digest #3151 Fri 22 October 1999

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		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com

  Sake, one more note. (Rod Prather)
  Bottle Guidelines for Contest Entry (Jarvis Moore)
  O2 not explosive ("Michael Maag")
  re: Starter Stirrer? (John_E_Schnupp)
  Yeast Starter - Oxygenation vs. Sanitation (John_E_Schnupp)
  sparge temp (J Daoust)
  Re: Homemade High-precision Thermometer (Spencer W Thomas)
  Re: Bohemian Pilsner (Part I) (Spencer W Thomas)
  Silica Gel (phil sides jr)
  lagering idea (Robert Johnson)
  DAP (Biergiek)
  The Flavor (William Frazier)
  where's my Mg (John_E_Schnupp)
  R.E. Caramel flavor in Fuller's ESB (Dave Humes)
  Re: Refractometers (Jim Wallace)
  Long Beach (Spencer W. Thomas)
  attached forms ("Tim Cronin")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 05:50:28 -0500 From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net> Subject: Sake, one more note. First, I assumed that polishing the rice removes protein. Although this may be true, it also removes the fatty acids leaving a hard almost full starch core. This also helps in reducing hangovers. Sake comes in many different levels of quality. Up until several years ago, only cheap sake was available in the US. Increased interrest in sake here (driven by Sake America and Fred Eckhert) has encouraged the sake manufacturers to import the higher quality stuff. Evidently the drinking of warm sake was practiced because it masks the flavors of the added grain spirits. This sake has alcohol contents around 18 to 21 percent. Though very high alcohol contents, near 21 percent, can be attained natually, high quality sake tends to be around 14 percent alcohol and is typically drank cold or at room temperature in Japan. I suppose if you were a very agressive brewer, you could build a polishing drum and polish your own rice. Any suggestions???? By the way, the rice mentioned by our as yet unpacked Dave Burley is of course Cal Rose. Top quality rice as a food source, too. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 08:33:02 -0500 From: Jarvis Moore <Jarvis at denbury.com> Subject: Bottle Guidelines for Contest Entry Hello all; long time observer, first time poster. I am rapidly approaching a point in my brewing where I am comfortable entering competitions. The problem I have encountered is that there does not seem to be a "standard" for bottle/cap type. Can someone outline a standard or point me to a good reference source? I commonly use old Oberdorfer Weiss bottles, but have recently acquired a case of empty Anchor Steam bottles. Do I need to find a six or twelve pack of generic bottles to use only for competitions? Private e-mails are fine. Thanks in advance for any input, Jay Moore Plano, Texas Jarvis at denbury.com "Pay no attention to the loud and boisterous for you know always where they stand, tis the quiet people you need to pay heed, for their thoughts are seldom revealed to the masses." Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 09:34:22 -0400 From: "Michael Maag" <maagm at rica.net> Subject: O2 not explosive Regarding Oxygenation vs. Sanitation, John writes: " A problem I see with O2 addition via Oxygenator, is that this is quite explosive and most people don't realize that potential. Maybe most brewers don't smoke - I hope so. John" This is a common misconseption. Oxygen does not expload, it does not even burn by itself. What oxygen does is make things that burn, burn faster and more easily. Oxygen lowers the ignition temperature of things which will burn, and makes them burn at a faster rate. If you smoke a cig in an O2 enriched atmosphere, the cig may catch on fire rather than smoulder, but that is all. The flame will not make the O2 burn. If your hair or clothing is saturated with pure O2, then the flaming cig could catch your hair or clothing on fire. This would require a very large amout of O2, not the amount needed to oxygenate wort. Cheers! Brew Safely, Mike Maag, OSHA Inspector, Industrial Hygienist Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 08:28:18 -0700 From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com Subject: re: Starter Stirrer? Ron, >The motor was controlled by a simple 10 watt or so potentiometer. Actually it was probably a variac (variable AC transformer). >It was held down by a simple metal flat piece that screwed down on >either side of the magnet to the disc. There a a bunch of ways to mount a magnet to a motor shaft. The way you mention is one. My first stirrer was using a DC fan, the housing was steel so the magnets held themselves. The second rev used a DC motor and I expoyed the magnet to a shaft coupling. >One thing to watch out for also, is the heat from the >motor really heated the plate up too much and raised the temp The variac probably created more heat than the motor. One stirrer I saw (commercial) had the magnet mounted (epoxy) to the center of a small fan blade. Voila, a fan and a stirrer all in one. My current stirrer is the DC motor. I think it's rated 24 VCD. I used a LM317 voltage regulator (Radio Shack) to build a variable DC supply. An old 18 VDC "wall cube" supplies the voltage to the regulator. The regulator is mounted in the stirrer box. It (voltage regulator and motor) barely get warm. The wall cube gets a little warm but since it's not mounted in the stirrer it's no problem. I also like the low voltage DC because if it gets wet it won't cause a catastrophe I built the box for the stirrer out of wood. Wood is an insulator (at least more of an insulator than the metal). Speed control. I don't worry about it. I keep it going fast enough to just start a small vortex. My stirrer has no problem stirring 3 qts of fully grown starter. John Schnupp, N3CNL Dirty Laundry Brewery Colchester, VT 95 XLH 1200 Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 08:28:08 -0700 From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com Subject: Yeast Starter - Oxygenation vs. Sanitation Bill, >Off the cuff, it sounds like they are mutually >exclusive, since the process of oxygenation would break any sanitary >"containment". Could somebody enlighten me on how this is done? I use a small aquarium pump. To output of the pump I attach a HEPA filter. The filtered air is pumped into starter flask. The flask is sealed with stopper. You can use a 2 hole stopper (one for air in and the other for air out). I use a fitting I made that allows bi-directional flow. I feel this is about as good as I can get. Granted the HEPA doesn't filter everything but I've never had an infection that has been starter related. John Schnupp, N3CNL Dirty Laundry Brewery Colchester, VT 95 XLH 1200 Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 08:38:18 -0700 From: J Daoust <thedaousts at ixpres.com> Subject: sparge temp Is there a reason why you cannot use a sparge temp greater than 170?? If 170 degree water dissolves the sugar good, why not use ~190 degree and dissolve more sugars?? Any thoughts welcome. Jerry Daoust Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 12:04:02 -0400 From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu> Subject: Re: Homemade High-precision Thermometer Hey, it's online! See below. >>>>> "Charles" == Charles T Major <ctmajor at samford.edu> writes: Charles> Here is the full citation: Carlson, Shawn. "The Amateur Charles> Scientist: A Homemade High-Precision Thermometer." Charles> _Scientific American._ 280.3 (March 1999): 102-103. http://www.scientificamerican.com/1999/0399issue/0399amsci.html Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 12:21:32 -0400 From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu> Subject: Re: Bohemian Pilsner (Part I) John> Ken recommended an inexpensive scale which can be found at John> [Edmund Scientific URL] American Science Surplus has what looks like the same scale for less than half the price: http://www.sciplus.com/cgi-bin/basket/940522558.14/experiment/90022.html Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:55:26 -0400 From: phil sides jr <psides at carl.net> Subject: Silica Gel I was unable to locate any discussion of silica gel in the archives except for use as a fining, so maybe this will even kick off a totally new thread... I have never had a problem with my stored malt picking up moisture, but I use it fairly quickly and I store in 5 gallon buckets with the PITA lids on tightly. I always hit my calculated OG's (actually been over lately) within reason. Nonetheless, this is a big area of concern for me because of my recollection of an experiment involving storing malt open to moisture and weighing it to determine how much moisture it absorbed. By the way, I should mention this is uncracked grain; I do not mill it until just before it goes into the MT. I moved recently and the new digs' cellar is far more humid (and warmer) than my old cellar. My question is, will adding silica gel to my storage buckets guard against moisture absorbtion? If so how do I determine how much to add? The thought occurred to me recently while removing a small plastic can labeled "SORB-IT CAN" from a bottle of vitamins. It is made by a company in New Mexico and even patented. Of course, it says "DO NOT EAT" but clearly this is considered a food grade container because it is in direct contact with the vitamins. This brings me to another question... Are the paper (tyvek) packets of silica gel you typically see packed in electronics safe for this use? In the same bottle of vitamins, was another similar container, a little larger, but made by the same company etc. It is called "GETTER CAN" and contains activated carbon. Presumably, this is for odors, freshness etc. Comments on the activated carbon? Phil Sides, Jr. Concord, NH - -- Macht nicht o'zapft ist, Prost! Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 12:21:14 -0600 (MDT) From: Robert Johnson <robertcj at lamar.ColoState.EDU> Subject: lagering idea to the collective: I had this idea. Let me know what you think. I was thinking that I could use my fridge to creating a lagering environment, but in a non-traditional sort of way. I like to serve beer at about 38F, so this would be too cold for the primary fermentation. My idea goes like this. I would start by placing the carboy of fermenting wort in a container holding water(like a large rubbermaid container, or something like that). In order to chill the water that bathes the carboy, I thought I could recircultate the water, using a pump of some sort, through a length of copper tubing occupying the freezer of my brew fridge. So, the bath water would leave the container via a pump, travel to the freezer, go through about 10 feet of copper tubing, and return to the main bath. Would this be feasible? Has anyone tried anything like this? If so,please respond. Or, if there are heat exchange experts out there, how much chilling would have to happen in order to keep approximately 5 gallons of bath water at about 48 - 52F? Bob Johnson Fort Collins, Colorado Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 14:50:28 EDT From: Biergiek at aol.com Subject: DAP Anyone know where I can buy some diammonium phosphate (DAP)? This will be used for yeast nutrients. Kyle Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 20:30:20 +0000 From: William Frazier <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net> Subject: The Flavor Ian Smith asks"how do you create that distinctive caramel flavor .in Fuller's ESB" IanYou've touched a subject dear to my brewing heart. I've been searching for the secret to FESB caramel flavor for about two years. In the Kansas City area FESB from the keg has substantial body, and a malty/caramel aroma (no hop aroma). The major flavor impact is caramel, a little sweetness followed by a strong, very mellow bitterness. I can't detect any dry-hop flavor. IMO the bottle version isn't nearly as good as from the keg. I started my work with Jim Busch's recipe "My ESB" that can be found in Cat's Meow. This recipe brewed with my Kansas City area water, which is loaded with minerals and has a pH of about 9, results in a rather harsh brew that mellows out in about three months to a drinkable liquid with a pronounced ale taste. After eight attempts the 5 gallon recipe settled in as shown below; Maris Otter 45.6% Munich Malt 45.6% Cara Vienne 4.1% Cara Munich 4.1% Roasted Barley 0.5% (use enough grain to give an OG of 1050 to 1060) Goldings 60 min 8 hbu Fuggles 45 min 2.7 hbu Fuggles 15 min 2.7 hbu (this works out to about 50 IBU using Noonan's calculation) Wyeast London Ale 1968 I now use pretty soft water made by diluting local KC water with reverse osmosis water and I add some calcium chloride. This recipe will result in a very nice "bitter" type beer with some maltiness. The bitterness will be mellow if the water is soft. However, there is no caramel flavor in this beer no matter how much Cara malts are used, no matter if the mash temperature is 150F or 158F and replacement of a portion of Cara malts with Flaked Maize does not result in a caramel flavor. Decoction does not result in caramel flavor. Recently I have been concentrating on process steps instead of recipe modification. Nate Waller and John Penn offered some good suggestions on how to create caramel flavors. Nate boils the first gallon of runnings down to a pint creating a caramel-like flavor. John diluted 4 lbs LME in one gallon of water and boiled this down to a thick syrup. I've tried both methods now and the results are kegged. Both beers have a lot of body, a big malty aroma, a mellow bitterness and are quite malty-sweet. However, I can't say they have caramel flavor. I do think this approach is the answer. To my taster FESB has a caramel flavor that is like caramelized suger (like Kraft caramels or like peanut brittle). While the caramelizing techniques described above produce a caramel-like flavor it's not quite the same as I pick up in FESB. Could be that Flaked Maize, reported to be a FESB ingredient, once converted to corn sugar in the mash is the ingredient that is responsible for the sugar-caramel flavor following some special Fuller's manufacturing technique. I presently have a more true FESB clone in the primary. The recipe is given below; Maris Otter 88.3% English Crystal 60 3.7% Flaked Maize 7.4% Roasted Barley 0.6% (mashed at 154F)(OG 1059) Target Plugs 60 min 8 hbu Target Plugs 15 min 2 hbu (works out to 37 IBU using Noonan's calculation) Wyeast London Ale 1968 I used Nate Waller's technique boiling the first gallon of wort down to one pint. The beer, still in the primary, has a bitter-sweet flavor. No caramel though. I plan on brewing the recipe again but instead of boiling first runnings down I intend to run the first pint or so of wort directly into a hot brew pot, letting the wort "scorch" for a moment. Then I'll run the rest of the wort on top of this and see what happens. I believe this technique is used in some Scotch Ales. Any suggestions are always welcome. Regards, Bill Frazier Johnson County, Kansas Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:52:35 -0700 From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com Subject: where's my Mg A (another) question about water. I recently received the water analysis and for the most part have no problems interpreting it. However, I do not see a listing for magnesium (Mg). There is a listing for manganese (Mn). I can not believe that they got the two confused. Alkalinity 42-56 mg/L as CaCO3 Calcium hardness 45 mg/L as CaCO3 Total hardness 61 mg/L as CaCO3 TDS 113 mg/L Chloride 17 mg/L Sodium 7.5 mg/L Sulfate 15 mg/L Zinc (added) .2-.3 mg/L (added to reduce leaching) Phosphate (added) .9-1.6 mg/L (of lead/copper from plumbing) My question is this, are there any assumptions that can be made about the Mg? The help information say the Mg is best kept at 10-30 ppm. If there are no assumptions I can draw about the Mg present in my water, I will assume it in negligible and not worry about. The water reports are free and I don't feel like sending a sample out and paying for additional testing. John Schnupp, N3CNL Dirty Laundry Brewery Colchester, VT 95 XLH 1200 Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 17:30:42 -0400 From: Dave Humes <humesdg1 at earthlink.net> Subject: R.E. Caramel flavor in Fuller's ESB I cannot say that I know what Fuller's uses, but I do have a suggestion. I use Schreier Carmel 60 in my ESB and it leaves a distinctive malty presence without the sweetness of crystal. It's almost a little too roasty for my taste, so I think the next batch will be a blend between their carmel 60 and carmel 30. Despite the urban legend that carmel and crystal are the same thing, I can attest to the fact that the Schreier carmel malts have little in common with crystal malts. Get some and give it a chew and the difference will be immediately obvious. You can read the description at http://www.schreiermalt.com/maltdesc_s.html and the analysis at http://www.schreiermalt.com/maltanal_s.html. These are basically high kilned malts as opposed to crystal malts which have had most of their starch converted in the stewing process. Therefore, these carmel malts must be mashed and are not suitable for steeping in extract brews. - --Dave Dave Humes >>humesdg1 at earthlink.net<< Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 21:01:29 -0400 From: Jim Wallace <jwallace at crocker.com> Subject: Re: Refractometers >I have been thinking of investing in a refractometer (temperature >compensating) to take gravity readings instead of the good ole hydrometer. >Does anyone else out there use one of these? Any recomendations? Also, is ........................ I have been using one for ~18 months now and keeping records of hydrometer vs refractometer readings with about 30 datapoints so far... the accuracy is quite good within a SG point or two usually and truthfully In trust the Refractometer mostly. You can not take a direct reading with the refractometer once the fermentation begins due to the amount of alcohol present but there are formulas to compensate >there an easy Brix to S.G. conversion? ........................ roughly Brix/4 = SG __________JIM WALLACE ____________ jwallace at crocker.com http://www.crocker.com/~jwallace Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 18:16:21 -0400 From: Spencer W. Thomas <spencer at umich.edu> Subject: Long Beach I will be in Long beach for a whirlwind visit on Oct 27. My bro & I will be pub-crawling that evening, and I MIGHT have some time in the afternoon, but my schedule is not yet set. Still, meeting up with fellow hbers is one of the things I like to do when traveling. If you want to try to set up a meet, drop me a line. Phone number(s) are bound to be good, since I don't know when & where exactly I'll be yet. =Spencer Thomas Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 19:35:30 -0700 From: "Tim Cronin" <cronin at attitude.com> Subject: attached forms Kathe, I have not been able to read your email. Why can't you just email me with the normal message. Why are you using attached forms. What ever the format is my computer does not read it. All I get is a blank screen. Return to table of contents
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