HOMEBREW Digest #3215 Fri 07 January 2000

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		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com

  GM, French Wines and beers (Dave Burley)
  Co2, Gravity, Flames (PRS) - CPC" <PRS at NA2.US.ML.COM>
  Inconsistent carbonation, Kegging (Dave Burley)
  Rescuing Uncarbonated Barley Wine (venesms)
  New AHA Administrator (Paul Gatza)
  Microwaving to sterilize... ("John S Thompson")
  Subject: Feelings on early racki ("Darren Robey")
  Should I remove Fermentation scum? (Kenneth_Smith)
  Re: Tannins ("Stephen Alexander")
  Pete's Hand Grenade. ("Kris Hansen")
  AOB Board Reorganization (Paul Gatza)
  chill haze (Lou.Heavner)
  Ontario, California? (Paul Kensler)
  gullible is in the dictionary, Dave (AlannnnT)
  Bretish/Greman racking practice (RBoland)
  Kegging Pale Ale ("Sean Richens")
  re: tannic materials and sparging ("Doug Moyer")
  Oversparging (John Wilkinson)
  Insults (John Wilkinson)
  A source? (Joseph Kish)
  GM seeds (John Wilkinson)
  GM foods ("Stephen Alexander")
  Great equipment opportunity (Bruce & Amber Carpenter)
  Alt Yeast Search (Richard Foote)
  Wheat Beer Tannins/Carbo. Efficiency (AJ)
  Munich malt (Marc Sedam)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 14:42:56 -0500 From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com> Subject: GM, French Wines and beers Brewsters: Page down if you are sick of these non-beer topics. - ------------------ Robin, this is also my last entry on this subject of GM, I can see your mind is made up that those big corporations are out to get you and facts don't make much difference. I doubt you will believe it, but big corporations aren't out to get you, nor is anyone else. As far as cars versus buses go, buses have few air pollution controls on them. Check it out. They also drive around empty most of the time, as do trains. Private cars move only when and where they are needed and in the shortest possible time and distance. But, for others, I too have read the hype about those poor cows, but I can find no evidence that using a natural hormone which the cow already makes causes it any harm. And at least I have looked beyond the newspapers and rumor media. I can guarantee that if it reduces the useful productive life of the cow, it for sure won't be used by farmers. As far as these GM potentially causing problems by crossbreeding in nature it won't happen because these plants are <sterile> as Robin points out. The spin he uses, however, ( I guess from other groups), accuses the big corporations of being greedy and using this method of preventing the farmer from reusing the seed. Of course, this same situation has prevailed for neary 50 years in the agricultural industry already, as hybrid corn seed must be purchased every year. The farmers happily buy it as a cost of doing business for the improved quality and productivity of this product. The only time entrance into nature could be a problem is, as was postulated in that seamless transition from Science Fiction to Science Fantasy in Jurrasic Park, - the "virgin birth scenario" ( no fathers needed) to arouse fear in the viewer that the dinosaurs would be back. Guess it worked on some people. These animals were not sterile, but were all female in the movie. An entirely different situation. And why weren't they all male? No movie. Realistically, it is not a problem as these ideas and philosophies have been debated for more than three decades in universities around the world. I hate to see Monsanto and others being vilified ( and sued) for being successful in bringing to market marvelous new products that will not require pesticides, will produce better products for the consumer and generally improve our lifestyle. And, worse, for reasons that are highly suspect from countries that have a history of trashing their competitor's successes. Realize that these plants which do not require pesticides are wonderful in that they are pest specific. That is it only kills the pest that eats the plant in question, without harming other insects - unlike pesticide applications. That's why the point is that no Monarch Butterfly will be harmed by Bt corn pollen, since it does not feed on it and will never come into contact with GM corn pollen under natural circumstances, yet other pests will be reduced according to their activity level. Now isn't that wonderful! Ask yourself why you haven't read or heard about this aspect of GM. Unfortunately, we are about to throw away all this wonderful stuff and future promises of this technology because of attitudes like Robin's and those of other uninformed people and those with their own agenda who don't give a crap about you, but act like they do. . I am really angry about this and you should be too. If my anger and passion causes me to be abusive it is a mistake, since I try to respect a well thought out argument even when it is opposite to my opinion. I am sorry, Lou. I do appreciate your comments. Thanks! - --------------------------------------- To set the record straight I did say modern French wines are getting better. I don't know which US wines are available in the UK today, so can't judge Nigel's comments. But there are some pretty good US wines in the market here. And I suspect a better bargain, at least in this country. Nigel, I lived in Wales in the 1960s and 70s and believe me, the offerings of French wine to the common man were anything but of the quality available today. I also toured France, tasted wine, drank Vin Ordinaire and was always disappointed when it was not as good as even California jug wine. Even the French watered it down with a tablespoon of hot water. I do not doubt that Chateau wines were much better than US wines in the 60s. Things have changed for the better across the board. I'm glad, but it took competition to do it, not market control - which was my point. If I were all alone in this opinion, well, OK, but I'll bet if you pick up any discussion on this subject you will find I am in agreement with the experts in the field on this. - --------------------------------------- Regarding the comment on Biere de Garde. It makes my point. Why do we discuss German, Britsh, and Belgian beers, but rarely, if ever, French beers? - ---------------------------------------- Keep on Brewin' Dave Burley Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 14:47:28 -0500 From: "Santerre, Peter (PRS) - CPC" <PRS at NA2.US.ML.COM> Subject: Co2, Gravity, Flames Co2 Shipping: I have a 5# Co2 cylinder that I use for my corny keg set up. Well moving time has come (from a small studio apartment to a 3 bedroom 2 bath house, I'm quite excited.) My dilemma is how to get my Co2 Cylinder to the new location. The moving company says they wont move it, and I /don't think/ I'm supposed to ship it via UPS or whatever. Does anyone have any experience or suggestions on this subject? On Tannins: Everyone is speaking on the subject of tannins being leeched out when the sparge gravity reaches 1.XXX. My question is this: How are you measuring your run off for gravity? Do you just redirect the flow to your sample jar once in a while and take a reading or what? From what I'm reading it almost sounds like you all can measure it constantly as the tun is being drained. Flames: Nice work guys. I don't think I've seen so many blatant and well constructed flames in quite a while. I was thinking that maybe we could set up a flames_request@hbd.org or something like that. That way I could read the new list while I'm at work and be able to laugh my ass off. Is this possible Mr. Babcock? Private emails are fine, especially if it is to flame me. Peter Santerre 24 Square Foot Brewery San Francisco Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 14:45:50 -0500 From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com> Subject: Inconsistent carbonation, Kegging Brewsters: Chris has experienced inconsistent carbonation using a bottling bucket. I suggest you make up your priming sugar solution in a cup of boiling solution ( not a cup of water). I uise a pyrex measuring cup , put in the sugar, add water and boil. A teaspoon of this in each bottle will give you 48 bottles properly primed. It will also take less time than a bottling bucket. It may sound tedious, but it works well and is fast. Takes me a couple of minutes. Bottle directly from the carboy. A bottling bucket improperly stirred will give this problem of inconsistency. It is also something else to clean and sanitize and if your beer is flat, you can incorporate a lot of oxygen as you transfer your beer into it and especially if you stir well, as you must. - --------------------------------------- Dan asks about kegging technique and about how much CO2 to blast into the keg. Be assured that blasting even an unreasonable amount of CO2 into the keg will not remove enough oxygen to prevent staling , as gases mix. Here's how I do it and use the minimum amount of CO2: Fill the keg with hot sanitary water and blow it out with CO2. That way you know you have no oxygen in your keg. As you fill the keg with beer, keep the lid partially on the keg to reduce the inflow of air. After filling, some keggers pressurize and release a few times to get additional flushing. If you are going to prime your beer be sure to seal the o-ring by pressurising the keg. Otherwise, it will never seal. - -------------------------------------- Keep on Brewin' Dave Burley Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 14:47:56 -0500 From: venesms at NU.COM Subject: Rescuing Uncarbonated Barley Wine I want to enter a Barley Wine I bottled two years ago into a competition soon. Unfortunately, the beer never carbonated for some odd reason. Anyway, how can I get it carbonated in time for a March contest? I've been thinking of: 1) pouring a dozen or so bottles into a corny keg; 2) pumping up the CO2 real high (how high?); 3) chilling the corney keg pretty cold (how cold?), 4) then carefully transferring the beer into bottles with a racking wand; and 5) capping immediately. What do you guys think? Mike in Middletown, CT Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 12:50:49 -0700 From: Paul Gatza <paulg at aob.org> Subject: New AHA Administrator Hi everyone. I'd like to welcome Gary Glass to our full-time staff as AHA Administrator. Gary lives in Lafayette, Colorado and has been homebrewing for several years there and in San Luis Obispo, California. As a teaching assistant and research assistant at the University of Colorado during his masters candidacy, Gary gained valuable database and other computer experience and project experience. Gary will be the lead staffperson for the Sanctioned Competition Program, Big Brew, Teach a Friend to Homebrew Day and the Clubs Program. Gary and I will coordinate the National Homebrew Competition together. Gary's email is gary at aob.org and he can be reached by phone at (303) 447-0816 X 121. Drop him a line to let him know what's going on in your neck of the bottle. - -- Paul Gatza Director American Homebrewers Association (303) 447-0816 x 122 736 Pearl Street (303) 447-2825 -- FAX PO Box 1679 paulg at aob.org -- E-MAIL Boulder, CO 80306-1679 info at aob.org -- AOB INFO U.S.A. http://www.beertown.org -- WEB Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 14:22:01 -0600 From: "John S Thompson" <jthomp6 at lsu.edu> Subject: Microwaving to sterilize... HBDers: I have some petri dishes which I use for streaking out yeast. I was wondering if a short blast in the microwave, say 5 to 10 seconds, would sterilize a thin layer of wort/agar. If so, this would eliminate the need to steam them. One could boil them in the microwave, but that gets pretty messy... John Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 08:22:24 +1000 From: "Darren Robey" <drobey at awb.com.au> Subject: Subject: Feelings on early racki Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 04:03:50 -0500 From: Calvin Perilloux <peril at compuserve.com> Subject: Feelings on early racking snippity snip >>My usual procedure was to brew an all-grain batch after work, Wow!!! Its a strictly saturday job for me. I couldnt even imagine starting an all grain when i arrive home from work! Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 15:31:55 -0600 From: Kenneth_Smith at enron.com Subject: Should I remove Fermentation scum? Should I remove the scum that forms on top of ales during fermentation? I read stuff on both sides of the fence. Some advocate using blowoff tubes to let the stuff escape. Others tell me to let it fall back into the beer as it adds body. What is the consensus here? Thank you. Ken Smith Houston, TX Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 16:37:17 -0500 From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Tannins In #3200 Micah Millspaw stated in part: MM>It is very difficult to extract tannins from the grain hulls in a mash. Note that the issue is whether "tannins" are extracted from malt vs hops. My response included: SA> Anyone who has ever sparged down below SG=1.010 SA> and tasted the result knows that the stuff tastes like sweet SA> watery tea. The tea-like flavors are the tannoids - SA> not a momily. The shocker is that about 70% of the total SA> wort tannoids appear in the first runnings. [...] SA> Tannoids levels fall (not rise) in later runnings - tho' they SA> don't fall off as fast as sugar levels. followed by more detailed comments on phenolic levels in runoff, wort and beer including a JIB reference. Paul Niebergall has repeatedly objected to the above post, tho' his objections are largely groundless and based on a poor reading. To avoid repetition I will address Pauls repeated objections each only once. 1/ -- PN>This flavor in no way proves or disproves PN>the presence of tannins [...] (and variations) Paul further comments that the "evidence" is "anecdotal" and that the "weak link" of using only flavor of run-off is "unscientific" and similar objection. The kitchen experiment suggested above was NEVER presented as sole evidence of tannoids extracted from malt in wort. There is proof enough of that in the paper I referenced (JIB v85, 23-25) and dozens more like it. Why would *anyone* think that I depended on this handy 'kitchen experiment" as "proof" without examining the citation ? If I were to state that lemon is more acidic than banana, cite a peer reviewed paper that included critical measurements and also noted that you can taste the difference - then what rational reader would claim a "lack of proof" without reviewing the paper ? To argue the other point, on which my case does not depend ... << the literature provides convincing proof that humans can taste both simple phenolic and tannoid additions to beer and wort, and that in excess they are negative flavors. The reference paper (JIB v85,23-25) gives triangle tests of beer with various phenolic treatments, as do: JIB v90 181-187 JIB v90 67-72 JIB v90 24-32 'Food Phenolics', Technomic Press, chapter 5 JIB 91 302-305 Several of the above compare both analytically and by taste the results of otherwise identical beers made with normal and ANT-13 (pro-anthocyandin/tannoid free barley). And yes there are differences in astringency at a high level of statistical significance. ** As an aside the ANT-13 mutant barley has been crossed and there are some large scale field tests underway - perhaps relevant to the GMO thread. Most directly a study by Kirin Brewing in which wort tannoids are removed by polyamide filtration, results in loss of phenolic (tea-like) flavors. Results appear in an ACS symposium 115, 1979. >> 2/ -- Paul also misread several statements claiming that I was offering tasting as proof of higher phenolic content in late runnings. PN> Mr. Alexander [...] prefaced his position by offering purely PN> anecdotal evidence that tannins are a problem when sparging PN> with a low gravity runoff. ..or .. PN>The evidence is based solely on his ability to detect what is PN>perceived as tannins just by tasting the dilute runoff. or PN>So, where is all the scientific evidence that PN> lautering below 1.010 leaches tannins First - an accurate reading is that I only said that tannoids CAN be tasted in final runnings, not that they are a problem, nor that they aren't present in other fractions. I also said that later runnings contain a higher phenolic:SG ratio tho LESS phenolics *but* my discussion re M.Millspaw's position was NOT based on this in any way. The point was that malt phenolics can be substantially extracted (and as an aside tasted prominantly in later runnings). Again, to prove the point tho' it is not germain to my original argument, << That phenolic levels rise in late runnings is evidenced in: Louis Bonham's reference, 'Brewing', Lewis & Young (Chapman & Hall 1996), also see the same basic points made in ... M&BS pp 273 (graph&text) JIB v58 408- 'Beer: The Art & Science of Brewing' by C.Bamforth (contains a note to this effect) 'Technology of Malting and Brewing', Kunze, pp 226 makes the following statement: "Toward the end of sparging increasing amounts of undesirable materials (polyphenols and bitter substances from the husks, silicic acid, etc) pass into solution. If one wished to produce high quality beer, the spent grains must not be extracted too much, i.e. not sparged too long". -- or for numerical results see, 'Extraction of Beer Polyphenols and Assay by HPLC', JIB v86, pp15 and . EBC XVI, p415. There is another very direct JIB reference that I can't find at the moment. And that beer tannoids in excess detract from taste - see the tasting references listed in 1/ above; several address this or general comments in any brewing textbook. >> 3/ -- PN> [lack of] evidence that tannins are a problem or PN>What I do object to, however; is people who claim PN>that [leeched tannin] has a negative PN>impact on the final quality of home brew. or PN>So, where is all the scientific evidence that lautering below PN>1.010 leaches tannins that have a negative impact [...] I NEVER stated that wort tannins(tannoids) had a nagative impact on beer!! I actually said that tannins extracted from wort were NOT a problem: SA> In a sense tannoids in the unboiled wort are not a SA> real issue anyway since they are virtually all SA> (>97% in one study) eliminated [...] My position is that tannins are largely removed with break material, but that *tanninogens*, *GIVEN ADDITIONAL CONDITIONS*, can develop into astringent tannins after the boil. The extraction of tannins and tanninogens occurs under nearly the same conditions so ... ============== If I may put the shoe on the other foot ... PN>Still a momily, in my book. The supposed momily in M.Millspaw's post was that malt tannins can be substantiallty extracted. This momily is disputed by every study I have read on the matter. What is your support for this viewpoint Paul ? PN>The problem is that dilute wort looks and tastes very much like PN> watery sweet tea, regardless of the tannin content, [...] Another anecdote. Many papers (see above) demonstrate that different tannin levels are distinguishable. Got any "proof" Paul ? Actually this would be a good triangle test to present at my club. -S Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 15:42:28 -0600 From: "Kris Hansen" <HanseKW at dhfs.state.wi.us> Subject: Pete's Hand Grenade. Pete threw a hand grenade on the table that seems to have attracted some attention. Sorry guys, but I couldn't stop myself from posting. First off, Kudos to Robin Griller and Ken Schramm for hitting the nail on the head (tail on the donkey?) I couldn't agree with you more. Although I doubt that Robin could be feeling too much like a luddite at the computer posting to this incredibly great forum! I just wanted to add my 2 cents. I do my best to avoid Genetically Modified foods and try to keep my ingredients as natural as I can. Not for fear of growing a third arm (which could actually come in "handy") or that I might die from consuming it. But more for financial and social reasons. Dave stated that: >I believe the major GM issue is one of market protection. Just as the atomic >power issue is one of big coal and oil pulling the wool over this country's eyes >so they can continue to pollute, GM opposition is an issue developed >largely by the agricultural interests, especially in France, to protect their markets >from superior, patented USagricultural products. He had me at first and then lost me completely. I believe that he's right about the issue being "market protection", but I think he's looking at it the wrong way. things are being genetically modified not just for the altruistic good of better crops, but also to protect the markets of US corporate agribiz. It all comes down to the "patented US agricultural products" Dave mentioned. The USDA and the Delta and Pine Land Company announced joint development and receipt of US patent #5,723,765 new biotechnology benignly called "Control of Plant Gene Expression" in early March, 1998. The patent permits owners and licensees to create sterile seeds by selectively programming a plant's DNA to kill its own embryos and thereby prevent sprouting. The patent applies to seeds of all species which, when saved by farmers after harvest, will not grow. 20-30% of US soybean crops are saved seeds. Pea pods, tomatoes, peppers, heads of wheat and ears of corn will essentially become seed morgues. Monsanto later bought Delta and Pine and now will be applying this technology to insure that farmers can't stock up on their corn, etc. and must buy EVERY year from them (only) for their crops. As soon as they have a majority of farmers stuck in this system and unable to use saved seeds, they will inevitably raise their prices and we will all be paying much more for our genetically better (and incredibly homogenetic) foods. Even beyond the terminator patent, there are other modifications being planned including traitor technology. This operates by taking certain traits (germination, flavor, nutrition) and making sure they wouldn't develop unless the company's proprietary chemicals are sprayed upon the plant, triggering little on/off switches in the governing genes. Great! more chemical spraying! BTW, there are other problems: U of Cornell researchers have announced that genetically engineered Bt corn killed Monarch butterfly larvae and researchers in Switzerland and Scotland have reported that ladybugs and green lacewigs (both pest eaters) appear to have shorter life spans on a diet of Bt-infected bugs. I don't think that we need to jump on this as quick as we can, with all the evidence we should probably just slow down a bit and look at some more of the possible ecological effects of all of this. I just don't want to feel like I have been contributing to these breakthroughs for the seed companies and try to avoid buying their products. Like French beer for Dave, it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I'm all for science, but that doesn't mean that I think it's all going to be good for me! Sorry to take up the bandwidth, I better get back to brewing. -Kris Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 15:07:59 -0700 From: Paul Gatza <paulg at aob.org> Subject: AOB Board Reorganization Hi everyone. Here is the latest press release on changes here at the AOB. Currently the AHA Board of Advisors has one seat on the AOB Board. Starting in July, the AHA Board will have three, with a goal of four by the end of 2001. In 1998 the AHA Board amended its bylaws to have new board seats filled by election of the general membership, with the slate of candidates coming from nominations by the board or staff. Rob Moline was elected to the board in 1999 as the first elected member. I'll be working with the board on the developing the new slate of candidates for an election prior to the AHA National Homebrewers Conference in Livonia, Michigan on June 22 to 24. Election information will be provided in the May/June Zymurgy. AHA members interested in running for an AHA Board of Advisors slot should contact an AHA staffperson or AHA Board member to discuss consideration for inclusion on the slate of candidates. AOB BOARD OF DIRECTORS APPROVES REORGANIZATION Divisional Representation Imminent Boulder, CO 1.5.2000 The Board of Directors of the Association of Brewers (AOB) recently approved a plan to incorporate the four divisional Boards of Advisors for the Institute for Brewing Studies (IBS), the American Homebrewers Association (AHA), Brewing Matters (BM), and Brewers Publications (BP) into the AOB Board of Directors. The resolution from the Board of Directors reads as follows, "The board of directors approves the reorganization of the board with the goal to install board of advisor designates by July 31, 2000 to three members each from IBS, AHA, and BM board of advisors, and one member of the BP board of advisors." "This is a landmark point in the continuing evolution of the Association of Brewers. Few industries have the breadth and depth of experience that the craft brewing industry enjoys. By tapping into this wealth of creative experience, the AOB will be able to dramatically improve their services to the industry", states John Hickenlooper, owner of Wynkoop Brewing Company and AOB board member. The new structure will allow each division to have decision making power for the future of the association and their respective divisions. "The reorganization of the AOB Board to include direct representation of our members and expert professionals is a logical stage in the evolution of our 21 year old Association", says Charlie Papazian, the AOB president. Each divisional board of advisors will continue to function as separate entities from the AOB Board of Directors. This decision has been embraced by both AHA and IBS members. "I feel that there is a commitment from Charlie and the staff to move all of the divisions of the AOB forward and to engage in meaningful action and representation. The brewers are excited to have a say in the issues and promotions affecting our industry", states Larry Bell, owner of Kalamazoo Brewing Company. Charlie Olchowski, the AHA Board of Advisors chair, adds "The homebrewing hobby remains viable and still serves as the proving ground for many future brewers. This a monumental new relationship to have homebrewers sit by the side of the working professionals of the brewing community, and together forging ahead with the agenda of the AOB." - -- Paul Gatza Director American Homebrewers Association (303) 447-0816 x 122 736 Pearl Street (303) 447-2825 -- FAX PO Box 1679 paulg at aob.org -- E-MAIL Boulder, CO 80306-1679 info at aob.org -- AOB INFO U.S.A. http://www.beertown.org -- WEB Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 16:43:21 -0600 From: Lou.Heavner at frco.com Subject: chill haze I brewed a version of Rob Moline's award winning barleywine last spring and layed it up to celebrate the Y2K rollover. There was nothing particularly unusual about the way I brewed it. I kept it in a closet at room temperature and occasionally put a bottle in the fridge to sample. Not really any serious chill haze was ever evident. the last one I tried was around September. In around October, I put a sixpack in the fridge in case I decided to try and enter them in any future contests and to compare with unrefrigerated bottles for oxidation/stability. A couple weeks before New Years, I put a case in the fridge. On New Years Eve, I opened the first bottle and it looked more like fresh unfiltered apple cider than beer. I looked at the other bottles and they were all cloudy. No real flavor problems, carbonation was good, and the haze went away as the beer warmed up. I looked at the bottles which had been refrigerated since October and they were clear except for the bottom inch or so which was very cloudy. Can anybody guess what may be going on here? I have never made a barleywine before and generally don't make beers over OG 1.055. However, I recently made a Duvel clone which has almost no chill haze and it was about the same strength, but fortified with candy sugar and less hoppy. I used Nottingham on the BW and added an additional package (properly rehydrated) at bottling to ensure complete conditioning. I'd appreciate any suggestions, because I'm about to bottle a wee heavy that is also about as strong as the BW and all malt and I'd like to avoid the chill haze if possible. I just don't have enough refrigerated space to knock all the haze out of these beers or the patience to wait for gravity to do its thing. Cheers! Lou Heavner - Austin, TX Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 18:06:48 -0600 From: Paul Kensler <Paul.Kensler at cyberstar.com> Subject: Ontario, California? I will be in Ontario, California for business next week - any brewpub / brewery recommendations? Any must-sees or must-avoids? I will be staying at a hotel with no rental car, so it needs to be in or around the suburb of Ontario... Any LA-area HBD'ers available to meet over a pint on Friday night, January 14? Paul Kensler Lansing, MI Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 19:48:19 EST From: AlannnnT at aol.com Subject: gullible is in the dictionary, Dave Dave Burley writes, > Did you know the word "gullible" is not > in the dictionary? > Keep on Brewin' > > Dave Burley Well Dave, the Miraim Webster Dictionary on line says: gull*ible also gull*able (adjective) First appeared 1818 : easily duped or cheated -- gull*ibil*i*ty (noun) -- gull*ibly (adverb) So Dave, I guess that depends on your definition of a dictionary. Alan Talman Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 20:29:49 EST From: RBoland at aol.com Subject: Bretish/Greman racking practice Jeff Renner describes the British practice of "dropping" beer in which racking is done with vigorous aeration, which some yeasts require, at high kraeusen. He suggests that this is practiced in some German breweries. I can confirm that something like it is done, and also add that it is a new practice. None of the breweries I visited two years ago did it, but all visited this past November were doing it. As the Ayinger brewery does it, hot break is removed in a hot wort whirlpool and the work passes through a chiller. Yeast is added and the cooled pitched wort is sent to an aeration tank. In this tank, a large quantity of air is bubbled through the wort. Cold break is lifted to the top of the tank by the bubbles and is removed. The aerated wort is then sent to the fermenters. The big problem with it is yield; a significant portion of the beer goes out with the cold break. See you at MCAB Bob Boland, St. Louis MO Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 20:36:34 -0600 From: "Sean Richens" <srichens at sprint.ca> Subject: Kegging Pale Ale Dan Michael has a couple of choices [NOT a false dichotomy :-)] - either prime the keg OR force carbonate it. Well, you could go half and half, but why double your effort? If you prime (remember to use only about 1/4 cup glucose), putting 5-10 psi from the bottle can help prevent leaks by seating the O-rings. If you want "Bitter", you will want to vent the keg a few times as the beer comes into condition, otherwise it will have the higher carbonation of a Pale Ale. Whatever you do to serve, it's a good idea to keep 5-10 psi (at serving temperature) to keep the wee beasties out and the bubbles in. If you're using a "picnic tap" to serve, dump nearly all the pressure, serve with just 1-2 psi, choke the tap to put a head on it, and remember to put the pressure back up to 5-10 for the night. Re. the fittings - do you mean the quick-disconnects? If so, you should lubricate the O-rings to reduce friction. There's "keg-lube", ask your local pub where they get it, or I suppose K-Y would do. Don't tell your friends if you want them to taste your beer! If it's the stainless-stainless threads that are difficult, be really careful - irreparable damage is so easy. If you can get it (no idea where - plumbing supply houses I suppose) look for FOOD GRADE Teflon grease. Put a TINY amount on the threads before putting the fittings back on. email me if you need more detail Cheers! Sean Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 23:19:54 -0500 From: "Doug Moyer" <shyzaboy at yahoo.com> Subject: re: tannic materials and sparging Brewers, Louis Bonham <lkbonham at hbd.org> writes: "However, it is pretty well established that, relative to wort gravity levels, the harder you sparge, the more tannic materials (as well as fatty acids and mineral compounds) you'll get." With respect to Mr. Bonham's extensive knowledge and contributions to this and other forums, I must say, "pbbbt". Who cares what the levels of tannins (whatever) are relative to the gravity? The only thing that matters is the total level into the kettle. What I would like to know is (assuming I sparge below 1.010) how much will my total tannin levels increase? Obviously, that is dependent on volumes and other factors, but surely some type of useful experiment could show that for some "representative" batches. The information that Mr. Bonham quoted, while sufficiently authoritative to cow us, is irrelevant. Until I see some meaningful data, I'm not going to stress about it. Brew on! Doug Moyer Salem, VA Star City Brewers Guild: http://hbd.org/starcity Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 23:13:10 -0600 From: John Wilkinson <jandjwilkins at earthlink.net> Subject: Oversparging Paul N. was taken to task for saying all bitter wort tastes like like unsweetened tea. I have found that to be true with my brews also. My last batch the last runnings were 1.018 and my water pH is < 7.0 so I didn't worry about tannin extraction. I tasted the sample I drew for O.G. check and it tasted, to me, like unsweetened tea. I think Jeff R. may be on to something when he points out that sweetened tea tastes less of tannin and perhaps earlier runnings have this taste masked by the sugars. My finished beers don't taste astringent to me and I have always attributed the unsweetened tea taste of the bitter wort to the hops. At any rate, for me the taste test doesn't indicate anything. John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 23:42:17 -0600 From: John Wilkinson <jandjwilkins at earthlink.net> Subject: Insults I, for one, did not find Dave B.'s comments about GM seeds insulting and don't see how any reasonable person could. How about we get back to brewing and leave the environmentalist and other political discussions to the proper forum. John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 22:15:25 -0800 From: Joseph Kish <jjkish at worldnet.att.net> Subject: A source? So, where is a good place to buy a Valley Mill? What's the price? Joe Kish Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 00:17:46 -0600 From: John Wilkinson <jandjwilkins at earthlink.net> Subject: GM seeds "scott" <windsurf at bossig.com> (wherever he is) wrote: >As far as genetically modified seeds, yes, we have been modifying our >food for eons. However, it does start to concern me when science would >have us believe they have mastered the science of farming. "Roundup >Ready" seeds (not affected by insecticide spray)are already here. If I am not mistaken, Roundup is a herbicide. I don't think I see the point either way. And: >Many organic minded people stock and trade vegetable/fruit seeds that >have linages from hundreds of years back. They don't trust the same >folks that gave us DDT. DDT saved millions of people on this earth from starvation and, I believe, was banned in the U.S. due to the possibility that it might be affecting the bird population from thinning of their shells. What is more important, birds or people? At least the organic types can make their decision and I can make mine, if the government lets me. And: >Luckily, farmers are getting the message REAL quick. Europe and Asia >by and large are refusing to buy U.S. grain that has been genetically >modified. In a CBS segment I saw, farmers have GM seed in stock, but >are definitely leaning towards going non GM if that's what the market >desires. I suspect many European restrictions on U.S. food exports are more rooted in protectionism than in alarm over GM seeds. The Europeans, already with a lower standard of living than ours, pay more for their food as a result. I prefer the freer market in the U.S. I would rather make the choice myself rather than have the government make it for me. I think that is the best thing about the free market, it lets individuals make their own decisions rather than have them made by the government which, at best, is ruled by a majority and usually by small groups. If 51% of the electorate wish something, slavery, tariffs, whatever, they could impose it on the remaining 49% in a true democracy. Another plus for our constitutional government which tries to protect the minority from the majority. Any decision which can be left to the individual should be. That is freedom, even more important than democracy, which is just an attempt to arrive at freedom. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 06:44:34 -0500 From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> Subject: GM foods I think I've lost sight of the purpose for GM foods aside from the 'march of progress' . The Monsanto products are herbicide resistant, so we can effectively prevent other plants species from occupying ag land. Other GMO that I read of will expand the growing region or season or be resistant to infestation(use) by species of bacteria, fungi or insects. When my father was born the human population was under 2 billion, now it is 6+B, and projecting current growth gives 14.4B by 2050. Clearly we are trading other species for added human population. We could choose to limit population or alternatively we could do as our yeast and grow till the limits are reached and flocculate. -S Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 06:15:06 -0600 From: Bruce & Amber Carpenter <alaconn at arkansas.net> Subject: Great equipment opportunity Greetings, I saw a great opportunity on EBay to snag some equipment for someone in the Columbus, OH area. Description: Everything you need to make and serve draft beer at home. Refrigerator with tap through door, glass carboy, plastic fermenter, two 5-gal cornelius kegs, CO2 tank, regulator, hoses, valves, capper, conversion ket for 1/2 barrells and more. Will not split up equipment. Buyer arranges freight or pick-up. I highly recommend a local buyer with a pick up truck. See the link: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=231265651 Bruce Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 08:30:07 -0500 From: Richard Foote <rfoote at mindspring.com> Subject: Alt Yeast Search Jeremy Bergsman writes: >Head Start AKA Aeonbrau (sp?) was a homebrewer's yeast supplier run by Dr. >Brian Nummer. I really like the Alt yeast they sold. Unfortunately, I just >went to my freezer box and my master vial is missing! Yesterday I threw out >the last plate from 3/99. Ouch! If anyone has this yeast stored somewhere >I'd be very grateful for 1 or more cells sent my way. Name your price. A >contact for Brian Nummer would be appreciated too, just in case he can be >convinced to crack the freezer for an old customer. - -- >Jeremy Bergsman >jeremybb at stanford.edu Dr. Brian Nummer is part owner and head brewer at an Athens, GA brew pub called Athens Brewing. The number there is 706-549-0027. Good luck in your yeast hunting. Hope you bag your limit. Rick Foote Whistle Pig Brewing Co. Murrayville, GA P.S. Who is Jeff Renner and where is his domicile? Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 14:01:43 +0000 From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com> Subject: Wheat Beer Tannins/Carbo. Efficiency Pat reports astringent wheat beer. Wheat beers are less likely than most to have high tannin levels from husks as they have typically less than half the husk material in their grists. As I've reported recently my decocted beers range from 400 - 1200 mg/L polyphenols, wheras my last two wheat beers, also decocted measured 142 and 143 respectively. Furthermore, the high protein levels should supply lots of stuff for them to complex and precipitate with. Nevertheless I'll volunteer to be the "scientist nearby capable of analyzing the slop to see whether there is a bounty of tannins in the beer" if you can tolerate loose definition of "scientist" and "nearby". I'm going to be off on travel for the rest of the month but will have e-mail. Write to arrange the transfer if you want me to do this. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Alan Meeker wrote that carbs yield 3.9 cal/ g in the calorimeter and 3.8 kCal/g in the brewer. The 3.8 number is very close to the 686 kcal/mole value published in biochem books for the change in Gibbs energy when glucose is burned to water and CO2. But the value retained in the ATP formed during respiration is only 38% of this or 263 kcal/mole equivalent to 1.45 kcal/g. Typo? - -- A. J. deLange Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 09:06:11 -0500 From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu> Subject: Munich malt I recently made a bock and a Vienna lager using the no-sparge technique. The grain bill was half pilsner malt and half DWC Munich malt. Mash schedule was my normal 40C (15min)-50C (30min)-65C (30min). Both were pitched with dry lager yeast. The gravities of both finished high. So high, in fact, that I got a quart of actively fermenting lager yeast from a local brewpub and pitched in each carboy to knock the gravity down. It only brought the gravity down an extra .002 SG points. All signs point to the Munich malt, as I've made all pilsner malt German pilsners and maibocks with acceptable final gravities. Just one data point that suggests use of a large amount of munich malt may give you FG's slightly higher than expected. - -- Marc Sedam Technology Development Associate Office of Technology Development The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill 308 Bynum Hall; CB# 4105 Chapel Hill, NC 27599-4105 919.966.3929 (phone) 919.962.0646 (fax) http://www.research.unc.edu/otd Return to table of contents
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