HOMEBREW Digest #3216 Sat 08 January 2000

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		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
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  Fraunce's Tavern/Weyermann's dark Munich malt (MVachow)
  Paulaner clone? or a close second? (spostek)
  Real CP Fillers vs "El Cheapo" CP Fillers (The Artist Formerly Known As Kap'n Salty)
  Re: kegging (Gary Melton)
  GMOs (Demonick)
  Re: Thalidomide-FDA (Jim Liddil)
  Rats! (Mark_Ohrstrom/Humphrey_Products)
  Real Fermentation temperature ("John Elsworth")
  Yield from Extract (CALNZAS)" <Tony.Ackland at comalco.riotinto.com.au>
  Zinc,  pH - lactic  acid ("Alan Meeker")
  carrots and grains of salt (Dave Burley)
  early racking (Ken Pendergrass)
  how do you measure the last runnings? (Bryan Gros)
  WPL 500 yeast, pewter, and small bottles ("Sean Richens")
  California Wine is Fine! (Brian Kuhl)
  B Brite (ALABREW)
  Fw: Nitrogen Dispensing at SoCal Homebrew Fest ("Don Van Valkenburg")
  Hop utilization with a low horsepower CF chiller? (William Macher)
  Posting rights, Mixed gas bottle (Pat Babcock)
  You say tomato, I say tomacco! (Peter Owings)
  HBD Fund Raiser: AllAdvantage.com (Pat Babcock)
  Malt mill ("Alex MacGillivray")
  RE: Beer diets 2000 (Bob Sheck)
  Hop loss ("Brian Dixon")
  re: Feelings on early racking (John_E_Schnupp)
  Re: Inconsistent carbonation (KMacneal)
  RE: CO2 Shipping.... ("Kelly")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 09:26:07 -0600 From: MVachow at newman.k12.la.us Subject: Fraunce's Tavern/Weyermann's dark Munich malt Caught a little page 8 article in my hometown rag yesterday that mentioned the closing of Fraunce's Tavern in New York City. This haunt of Wall Street money jocks has been in operation since the mid-18th century and was George Washington's favorite pub. The tavern's early history is covered in great detail in Gregg Smith's Beer in America, a fun, informative read if beer history turns you on. Pete inquires about a single infusion mash at 154-6 for Weyermann's dark Munich. Pete, I just finished brewing up a bag of this malt. I brewed an alt, a doppelbock, a 50/50 Munich/2-row Christmas beer, and an export lager. I went into the project with a little bit of info from Weyermann's web page. I took Weyermann's claim that their malts are highly modified as equatable to the kind of no-brainer extraction I get from my house 2-row, Great Western. The all-Munich alt, mashed at 150 for 90", had a disappointing extraction around 70%. I usually hit 75-80% at that temp on straight-up pale ales with Great Western 2-row on my picnic cooler set-up. The doppelbock was a single decoction on which I missed my 154 final rest and had to add boiling water. Nevertheless, I got a little better extraction than on the single infusion, around 72%. For the Christmas beer, I decided not to mess with mash temps or add extra rests betting on the 2-row to aid in conversion. This bet paid off; I got about 76% extraction and, most importantly, one of the best beers I've brewed in quite a while. I banked on the same principle with the export which was about 30/70 Munich/pils malt and got the same 76% extraction. The final results of my experimentation (i.e. fiddling around unscientifically with a bag of malt) were that this malt is not as well modified as domestic 2-row, yet it is by no means temperamental; 154 and perhaps higher mash temps work better than the lower temps I can get away with on domestic 2-row based beers; because I dumped in a lot of boiling water, a thin mash might have hurt the final extraction in my doppelbock; a sizeable proportion of 2-row in a recipe seems to ameliorate whatever limited finnicky enzymatic characteristics the Munich has; all the beers dropped clear quickly, the major reason I didn't bother with multi-step mashes; finally, and most importantly, it was all worth it as every one of these beers has a rich malty quality that I've never gotten before with aromatic malt and other adjuncts. The doppelbock wound up on the high end in terms of gravity for a bock, but it's rich, raisiny, chocolatey flavors and deep reddish brown color were doppelbock all the way. All of these flavors were attributable to the Munich as the recipe otherwise contained a little crystal and no other adjuncts. Mike New Orleans, LA Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 10:37:25 US/Eastern From: spostek at voicenet.com Subject: Paulaner clone? or a close second? I'm fairly new to brewing (4 batches) and have taken one step past all-extract brewing to extract with specialty grains and unhopped malt extracts with my latest American Pale Ale. Could someone suggest a good Paulaner Weizen clone recipe? I have read in previous posts that Wyeast 3068 is the best to use to obtain that true to form bananna flavor. Please pass any you have along it would be greatly appreciated. spostek at voicenet.com - --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using Voicenet WebMail. http://www.voicenet.com/webmail/ Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 15:42:27 GMT From: mikey at swampgas.com (The Artist Formerly Known As Kap'n Salty) Subject: Real CP Fillers vs "El Cheapo" CP Fillers Anyone ever had any experience comparing the performance of real CP bottle fillers to just jamming a tube onto the end of a picnic faucet and just filling the bottle very slowly with very cold beer? I'm considering the purchase of a CP filler, but am wondering if it's really necessary. Michael Owings -- Chairman, Allan Meeker Defense Fund $1.43 and counting Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 08:08:04 -0800 (PST) From: Gary Melton <meltongl at yahoo.com> Subject: Re: kegging Jeff Renner said (on carbonating in kegs): > When I'm in a hurry, I turn the pressure way up to 30 psi or even > more and shake. Over time I've learned from the rate of gas flow > how long to do this. I keep turning the pressure down and > listening. I have a comment and a question about this. I recently bought some kegs and went to the local fire extinguisher company to get a CO2 tank. He sold me a used tank and asked if I wanted to get a regulator. I had been looking online, but figured I would avoid the wait and get it from him. I brewed a batch and began reading up on kegging. I was in a hurry, so I decided to try the "turn up the pressure and shake" method. After shaking a while, I turned the pressure down. I was horrified to see the beer go up the gas tube and start bubbling out of my regulator. After that I did some more reading and learned of the benefits of one-way check valves. Obviously, my regulator did not have one. I was surprised how infrequently they were mentioned in the literature. So my comment is, if you are starting to keg, make sure your regulator has a check valve, and if it doesn't, buy one separately to put in your line. My question is, is my regulator ruined? I would assume it would be a constant source of infections, so I have planned on scrapping it. Is there anything I can do to clean it? If not, does anyone have a use for a contaminated regulator? Thanks for any help. Bud Melton meltongl at yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 08:44:04 -0800 From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com> Subject: GMOs Much of the discussion - way OT - concerning genetically modified organisms has taken the following distrustful, motive besmirching, science-bashing tone: From: Mark_Ohrstrom/Humphrey_Products at humphreypc.com >GMOs: Another Great Idea From the Same Folks Who Gave Us > Kudzu and Nuclear Power and Love Canal and DDT and Y2K and ... (I am not singling out Mark with my ire. There is no ire here. I'm simply using his comment as a representative sound bite.) I don't really want to get into a religious discussion, and I even hesitate to point out that the same "people" bringing you GMOs are the same "people" who brought you indoor plumbing, sewage treatment, calculus, light bulbs, radio, antibiotics, AZT, chemo-therapy, bone-marrow transplants, bypass surgery, insulin, human growth hormone, flu vacines, oil and sludge eating bacteria, blood coagulation factors, blood coagulation inhibitors, space travel, communications satellites, cellular phones, personal computers, VCRs, CDs, DVDs, the Internet (including this forum) microwave ovens, convection ovens, aviation, plastics, and high-yield farming to support the 6+ billion of us. I work for a company that creates and uses GMOs extensively. For example, the strain of brewer's yeast that includes the human gene for insulin which allows the manufacturers (Eli Lilly and Novo-Nordisk) to quite literally brew insulin. Before the use of GMOs to brew insulin people used extracted cow or pig insulin which always risked a whacko immune response, or extracted human insulin if you couldn't tolerate the animal products. All of these extracted insulins ran the risk of viral contamination, a risk absolutely eliminated by using the GMO produced product. Back in the 1980s MOST, yes, MOST, hemophiliacs died of AIDS due to tainted blood products. Whether through the use of whole blood or extracted clotting factors MOST hemophiliacs contracted AIDS and are now DEAD through no fault of their own. The reagents used in the AIDS and HepC tests were developed and may still be produced by GMOs. This means that you, yes YOU, can get a life-saving transfusion without fear of AIDS or HepC. YOU can get bypass or open heart or appendix surgery without fear of AIDS or HepC. Back in the mid-80s my company was using GMOs to investigate Factor VII, a blood clotting factor. At the time many hemophiliacs were developing life-threatening immune responses to the extracted animal and human clotting factors that they required to stay alive. One such young gentleman was in the throes of a terrible bleed that had been progressing for many days. He had built up anti-bodies to the extracted products then available. Nothing would control his bleed and there was no doubt that he was dying, and would be dead within hours or days. We had produced human Factor VII in GMO'd yeast. By inserting the human gene for Factor VII into brewer's yeast we had convinced the yeast to produce and excrete Factor VII which could then be extracted from the cell-free media and purified. Quickly getting all of the requisite permissions (no mean feat when a guys life is measured in hours) the gentleman was treated with our purified Factor VII. He quickly recovered and survived to this day. A few months after he had fully recovered he visited our little company to thank us all personally. There was not a dry eye in the place. He epitomized the reason that we were in business, why many of us had left comfortable positions to create this personally risky, hare-brained biotechnology company. Such GMOs are now being used to produce human growth hormone, a bunch of anti-viral proteins, wound healing proteins, blood coagulation and coagulation inhibitor proteins, a bunch of industrial enzymes (enzyme washed jeans), and numerous others. Technology developed with GMOs is used in forensic science to clear or convict (DNA testing). It's used to diagnose and treate disease. It's used to produce household products like laundry detergent, and industrial raw materials. Erythopoietin, EPO, is a human protein, again produced in GMO'd yeast that stimulates the production of red blood cells. Obvious for the treatment of anemia, it is more widely used for kidney dialysis patients. Red blood cells get banged up and wear out quickly in dialysis machines. The use of EPO means that people with compromised kidney function that require dialysis, whether permanent or temporary, can tolerate more and longer treatment, making them feel a lot better and thereby greatly increasing their quality and length of life. TPO, thrombopoietin, while not yet a commercially available product is a protein, again produced by GMO'd yeast that stimulates the production of platelets. Platelets are required for blood to clot and for some healthy immune responses and wound healing. They are a high turnover cell type, particularly sensitive to chemo and radiation therapy during cancer treatment. The number 1 reason for incomplete courses of chemo and/or radiation treatment in the treatment of various cancers is a dangerously low platelet count. These patients bleed into the elbows and knees resulting in huge, ugly bruises. The chemo/radiation treatment must cease, whether completed or not, or the patient will bleed to death. The future use of TPO for these unfortunate people will mean that their cancer treatments can go full course, and more people will survive the disease. I got a million of 'em. The point is, the same hubris that caused man to have the audacity to think that they could shit indoors and simply flush it away rather than squat bare-assed over a trench in the snow and live with the subsequent disease from contaminated water, has powered all of human progress. Being a scientist involved in the endeavor to better the human condition, I take serious offense at being characterized as greedy, money-grubbing, corporation as god, f**k the consequences and the people, do anything for a buck kind of guy. I AM NOT. No one at my company and no one that I know in the industry is that kind of guy. The ultimate point of what I do is to help people live better lives. A lesser point is, in fact, to make a buck, without which, no such progress would be possible, and the earth could only support a few hundred million of us living in the mud, cold, dying very young, and suffering mightily while alive. My suggestion to all those morbidly concerned about GMOs is to not. Ignore Jeremy Rifkin, fasten your seat belts, stop smoking, eat your vegatables, take your antioxidants, cherish the Bill of Rights, take joy in your loved ones, take comfort in the religion of your choice, and have a home brew. Which, by the way, unless you are using a cake of baker's yeast was brewed with a GMO. Domenick Venezia Computer Resources Manager ZymoGenetics, Inc. Seattle, WA demonick at zgi dot com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 11:46:14 -0500 From: Jim Liddil <jliddil at vms.arizona.edu> Subject: Re: Thalidomide-FDA - --On Thursday, January 06, 2000, 5:50 AM -0800 "H. Dowda" <hdowda at yahoo.com> wrote: > Jim, > > Seems thalidomide was approved in the USA specifically > for use in pregnantwomen...hummm, will have to check > that. I know we have thalidomide babies (now MOL > middle aged), in US. Maybe they weren't born here. > > Harold Dowda I was not completely right about the approval of thalidomide. But it seems all the birth defects were outside the united states. but I guees my real point was that it is important not to take things as the gospel. do a little research. And I suppose there are people out there who think prozac led to columbine. "The drug thalidomide has a long FDA history. Thalidomide was approved in Europe in 1957. A US marketing application was reviewed by the Agency in 1960 and was not approved because of concerns about neuropathy associated with use of the drug. While the Agency was awaiting answers to these concerns, the link between thalidomide use and an epidemic of congenital malformations (phocomelia and other organ defects) occurring in Europe was recognized and the drug was withdrawn from marketing. The tragedy played a part in the debate around the 1962 amendments to the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act that resulted in specific effectiveness requirements for drugs. " http://www.fda.gov/cder/news/thalidomide.htm http://www.pnc.com.au/~cafmr/online/research/thalid2.html http://www.fda.gov/cder/news/thalinfo/default.htm Jim Liddil Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 12:45:48 -0500 From: Mark_Ohrstrom/Humphrey_Products at humphreypc.com Subject: Rats! > Ladies, Gentlemen, & the vermin from Western, MI Hey! I resemble that remark! Mark (If I Knew I'd Be a Brewer, I'd Have Paid Attention in Chem) in Kalamazoo Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 13:30:17 EST From: "John Elsworth" <jdelsworth at hotmail.com> Subject: Real Fermentation temperature The recent posts on the elevation of temperature during fermentation, reminded me of a question I had been meaning to post for a while. Does the optimum fermentation temperature that is quoted for yeast strains refer to the room temperature or the average temperature in the primary? I put this question to WYeast a while ago, and the e-mail response indicated that the recommended temperature referred to the actual temperature in the fermentor. Can anyone confirm this? If true, the room temperature ideally should be significantly below the cited temperature. Of course, the elevation during fermentation will be most pronounced during the time of most vigorous activity, so that the 5-10 degrees rise which has been mentioned probably lasts only a day or so. Perhaps a thermocouple immersed in the primary could be linked to the room temperature thermostat to achieve optimum temperature during the whole fermention period! John Elsworth Hamden, CT ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 18:50:08 -0000 From: "Ackland, Tony (CALNZAS)" <Tony.Ackland at comalco.riotinto.com.au> Subject: Yield from Extract Gents, I've read that theoretically, sugar will yield 51.1% ethanol, which translates to around 48% for practical means, eg 1kg of sugar will produce approx 0.48L of alcohol. What is the expected yield from malt extract ? Tony Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 14:43:36 -0500 From: "Alan Meeker" <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu> Subject: Zinc, pH - lactic acid Kyle asks about ZnCl: - ------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) I am interested in zinc chloride, not as scarry as it sounds, its just a fetish with me. What I would like to know is if I add 1 gram of this stuff in 1 gallon of water what is the yield of zinc and chloride ions in ppm? - ------------------------------------------------------------------- OK.... let's see here, 1 ppm (w/v) is 1 mg/liter. There are 3.785 liters to a U.S. gallon. So.... if you add 1 gram to 1 gallon (love these mixed units Kyle!) that's 264 mg per liter final concentration or ...... Tah Dah! 264 ppm in your 1 gallon. I'm gonna make a wild guess here and say you're thinking of adding this as a yeast nutrient?? If so, then a recommended amount (MBAA handbook) errrr correction - amount required by the yeast is 0.2 - 0.5 ppm of zinc. This isn't counting the amount of zinc already present in your wort which will vary with water source/treatment, type(s) and amounts of malts used, etc... The ranges given for an "average" 12deg Plato all-grain wort are 0.1 - 0.15 mg/liter (0.1 - 0.15 ppm). It turns out that zinc availability also varies depending on whether or not you remove trub but more on this later... Note also that the 264ppm I calculated above is for zinc chloride not just the zinc. Since zinc represents only 48% of the total weight of the zinc chloride the actual zinc concentration in your solution will only be 127 ppm. I hope I calculated all this right! -Alan Philip Wilcox asked about phorphoric acid: - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I diluted as much as I could and got it up to 3.9. (arhg) The pH of the final run off was 5.2 and the pH of the full kettle volume was 5.3. I gave a collective Whew! and went about the rest of the brew. I forgot What potential damage did I create? If a higher pH causes extraction of tannins and the such, what does going below the recommended 4.8 minnimum mark do for your sparge? What is the recommened technique for adding the typical 88% lactic acid to your sparge water to reduce its pH? - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Probably no damage. The pH of the run-off is fine so it probably went OK. I think the concern would be what the pH of the actual mash was. If it was too low then it could result in inactivation of the various enzymes, notably the amylases which could lead to low efficiency and perhaps eventual starch haze (just guessing about the starch haze). If your brewing water is close to the oft quoted optima of 5.2 - 5.5 then the mash has a great capacity to "set itself" into the correct range due primarily to the reaction of malt phosphate compounds and metal ions in the water - especially calcium and magnesium. If you started at 3.9 that's a ways off but it probably set up OK. How was your S.G.? I don't know if there is a recommended technique for using lactic acid but since you now have a pH meter you are golden! I use lactic to acidify my sparge water. It only takes about a ml or two (maybe half a teaspoon) per 6-7 gallons of preboiled Baltimore tap water to get the pH in the 5.5 - 6.0 range. I'm using pH papers to measure this, you'll get much more accurate readings with your meter. -Alan Meeker Baltimore Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 14:59:14 -0500 From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com> Subject: carrots and grains of salt Brewsters: Alan Meeker proved my point that your body could not possibly utilize all that you eat, as though you are a Bomb Calorimeter.. If you go back you will find I did not quote anyone, but used an example to make a point. There is no way I could ever retrieve everything I have ever read, so I said so in my note. Point is I was correct that what we eat is not what our body consumes, and Alan's carrot weighing and approximation of caloric content example proved that. So the basic theory of calorie counting as a dieting method is incorrect in its strictest definition. That was my point, not that you would gain 135 pounds or 1200 pounds if you ate one extra carrot a day beyond your caloric needs. - ------------------------- I did caution Alan in a private memo to be sure to distinguish between slander and comment when he made threats to me to publish his personal feelings toward me in the HBD, as though they were truths. Being forewarned by his threat, I reminded him that his comments were on file and that he should be careful. I would say that to anyone. Also, be sure you consider the source when Alan publishes anything about me. Frankly, I don't know of anything I ever did to Alan personally. I can only guess it is because I question his broad brush theories ( liike yeast growth and dieting) and just do not accept them 100% without discussion. In other words, I take everything he says with a grain of salt and he finds that irritating. I'm guessing. No more on this subject here. The sad part is I like Alan and his contributions. - ------------------------ I also suggest that everyone always take everything that I say and what others say with a grain of salt. The GM situation is a good example of not enough of us questioning. I thought I made a mistake once, but I was wrong. {8^) - ------------------------- Now let's get back to beer and remember we are all here because we like beer and to brew it. - -------------------------- Keep on Brewin' Dave Burley Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 18:02:01 -0400 From: Ken Pendergrass <kenp794 at earthlink.net> Subject: early racking Re early racking I follow the suggestions of Miller. All of his books are great especially so for beginners. He was able to get me up and running very quickly in all grain brewing. Anyway what I do is rack my wort into a 5 gal. vessel after cooling with an imersion cooler. I then pitch all my yeast and rack into whatever fermentation vessel I intend to use sometime the next day. I pitch a 1/2 gal. yeast culture. And have never had a lag problem. I think of flocculation as what happens to yeast cells after they become dormant not while there active. Racking at this time will not rack off the yeast. I don't know if my image of flocculation is correct scientificly but it is working for me. Ken Ypsilanti,MI Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 15:28:42 -0800 (PST) From: Bryan Gros <blgros at yahoo.com> Subject: how do you measure the last runnings? Much debate about when to stop sparging and the dreaded results of sparging too far. But on a practical level, Jeff and others, how do you measure the gravity of your final runnings? Whether you stop at 1.012 or 1.010 or 1.005? I mean, I guess I can use a steel pitcher and put the runnings in an ice batch, but it still takes a few minutes to cool down and get a gravity reading. Do you have a handy sachrometer or something? Or do you stop sparging while you figure out how close you are to your intended stopping point? Or do you do like me and sparge until you've got enough wort and then measure the final runnings to see what it was? - Bryan Oakland, CA Organizer, National Bay Area Brew Off 2000 http://www.valhallabrewing.com/dboard/babo2000.htm Get your entries in before Jan 22! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 18:04:24 -0600 From: "Sean Richens" <srichens at sprint.ca> Subject: WPL 500 yeast, pewter, and small bottles Darrell had good experiences with WPL500 yeast - I gather from the guesses and inside info here and there that the first-line "trappist" yeast from each supplier is usually believed to be Chimay. I used a culture from a bottle in a "millenial stout" and it went from 1.090-odd to 1.011. It also made my best-ever mild ale OG 1034. Yeasts might have evolved under human care to do specific jobs well, but it's really worth using those yeast cakes to investigate what they might do under other conditions. I got a really nice German pewter stein for Christmas. I put it on my wish list after we had a wasp infestation this summer which made me realize what that lid is for. Is there a metallurgist who could add a comment about drinking beer from pewter (it does have a long history) or should I just drink faster? Finally, I heard (and saw) that Coca-cola is coming out in a "nostalgia" issue of glass 8-oz bottles. Sounds ideal for those millenial stouts, etc. Time to buy a bottle of rum for my favorite rum-and-coke drinker. Sean Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 16:22:48 -0800 From: Brian Kuhl <brian.s.kuhl at intel.com> Subject: California Wine is Fine! John Wilkinson writes: anyone else knows of a U.S red in the league with a good Bordeaux, Chianti, or Barolo, let me know. At a comparable price or not. Hi John, Here are a few names to look for. These are easily rated top notch in a world standard not just France... Bryant Family Caymus Chateau Montelena Harlan Estate Diamond Creek Groth Joseph Phelps Opus One Screaming Eagle Araujo And my favorite...Beringer Private Reserve! CU, Brian Kuhl Sacramento, CA Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 19:03:09 -0600 From: ALABREW <alabrew at mindspring.com> Subject: B Brite John wrote, First time using B Brite. Didn't know it was JUST a cleaner. Thought it was a sanitizing agent. I contacted Crosby and Baker just last week about this. Without ruffling feathers by posting his response, Seth Schnider <mailto:CBLtd at att.net> reported to me that B Brite is also a sanitizer but because of FDA regs. about certification and the cost involved, they only market it as a cleaner even thought it also has sanitative qualities. - -- ALABREW Homebrewing Supplies http://www.mindspring.com/~alabrew Birmingham, AL Home Beer and Wine Making Specialists Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 17:50:24 -0800 From: "Don Van Valkenburg" <don at steinfillers.com> Subject: Fw: Nitrogen Dispensing at SoCal Homebrew Fest Received this private email on the subject of Nitrogen/Co2. The sender says it's ok to post. So Here it is---- >Don, > >I saw your post on the HBD and thought I would send you an email. I >don't subscribe to the HBD (so I can't post) but I read it regularly. > >Your info on mixed gas (CO2/Nitrogen) is correct in that the gasses do >not remained mixed in the cylinder. It is not however the valve itself >that does the mixing but rather the tube attached to the valve. This >tube has several tiny holes down the sides of it so that gasses are >drawn from various levels within the cylinder simultaneously allowing >some consistency in the mix of the gas as it is used. Without the mixing >tube the carbonation level (which is dependent on the CO2 in the mix) >would be erratic. Without a certain level of CO2 in the mix your beer >will indeed go flat. > >The valve required for mixed gas is different than the valve normally >used for CO2. Mixed gas is at much higher pressure than CO2 (about >2,000 psi) which makes a high pressure valve necessary. I have heard >from brewers in other parts of the country who have had their normal CO2 >cylinders (with standard valve) filled with mixed gas but I'm assuming >it was a partial fill (thus lower pressure) or safety regulations aren't >as stringent as they are here in California (ALWAYS a possibility). > >I have a supplier in Riverside (recommended by the local Guinness >distributor) who set me up with a small cylinder, high pressure valve, >mixing tube, and an adapter for my regulator. I use a mix of 75% Nitro >and 25% CO2. > >Due to the higher pressure a regulator rated for such use must be used - >most CO2 regulators for beverage dispensing are not rated for mixed gas >use. Some regulators offered for mixed gas use have a male fitting and >connect directly to the high pressure valve - others have a female >fitting and require an adapter (the high pressure valve has a female >connection as opposed to the standard valve used for CO2 which has a >male connection). > >I would think that you should be able to find someone in your area to >provide the mixed gas - after all, I found one way out here in >Riverside. I'm sure that there are plenty of pubs that use pre-mixed >gas (although the larger ones will buy straight nitrogen and mix it with >CO2 on site). > >For the record the stout served by the Inland Empire Brewers at the >SoCal Homebrewer's Festival was conditioned and served with a >nitorgen/CO2 mix and I believe several others were as well. > >Wassail, > >Steve Dunkerken >Webmaster - Inland Empire Brewers Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 22:19:42 -0500 From: William Macher <macher at telerama.lm.com> Subject: Hop utilization with a low horsepower CF chiller? HI All, I suppose this is a simple question... ...But here goes anyway. I made my counter-flow wort chiller from materials at hand, which were relatively small ID copper tubing about 50 feet long and a piece of garden hose. Actually turned out pretty nice looking, as I wrapped it around a corny keg. The tubing is 5/16 OD, which gives me about 0l25 inch inside diameter. It also is pretty efficient at cooling the wort. But it is SLOW. The relatively small ID, along with the long length, results in my inability to pump through the chiller at more than about 1 liter per minute. I think the fact that the chiller is about 6 feet above the pump also takes away from the flow rate somewhat. What I have noticed is that my beer seems to be much more bitter than it used to be before I started 10 gallon batches and counter flow chilling. Prior to building my new system, I made five-gallon full boil batches, and used an immersion chiller. I have been gradually cutting back on my hop additions as the result. Because of the slow movement of the wort out of the boiling kettle, I fear that things have changed a lot in my process, and that I may be getting different hop utilization rates from what I used to when I cooled the wort with the immersion chiller. This would be, in my mind, because the wort sits in the kettle at very near boiling temperatures for up to 40 minutes, as it waits for the pump to push it through the chiller. With the immersion chiller the entire wort moved away from boiling temperatures as a unit rather quickly. It it possible, or likely, that my bittering hops remain bittering hops, and that my flavoring hops become additional bittering hops due to this long period in the boiling kettle, after flame out, but before chilling? At best, can I expect my aroma hops to be flovor hops? My suspicion is that I may need to use a hop back to get back to a reasonable bittering-flavor-aroma profile. And perhaps delay hop additions somewhat. Add bittering hops 30 minutes before end of boil, flavor hops at end of boil...aroma hops in the hop back? Is my thinking on, or off, track? Is there much difference how the hops react to the wort at rolling boil versus near-boiling temperatures? Are aroma hop additions still possible with my current system if they sit under cover in my kettle at near-boiling temperatures for this long a time? As always, and guidance is highly appreciated. I guess I could build a new, faster-flowing chiller, but I don't really want to... Happy Brewing! Bill Macher Pittsburgh, PA USA Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 21:48:34 -0500 From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org> Subject: Posting rights, Mixed gas bottle Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager... In a note to Don Van Valkenburg, Steve Dunkerken writes: > > I don't subscribe to the HBD (so I can't post) Popular misconception, but please note that you do not have to SUBSCRIBE to the HBD in order to POST to the HBD. We monitor the queue up front to filter the spam out, so such a posting restriction is unnecessary. Cool, huh? Per the CO2/N2 mix discussion, Steve's description is dead on for the most part. But let me relate my experience. As readers of the now-dearly-missed Brewing Techniques may recall, I developed a draft system utilizing a cold plate and a cube refrigerator to cool the serving stream rather than refrigerating the kegs. The cold plat requires a 35 psig driving pressure, and the kegs are stored at room temperature. The required pressure, ovver the long term, would overcarbonate the beer if it was pure CO2, so a mix is required. The gas bottle that drives this system was converted from a simple CO2 c ylinder. It was converted at the welding shop where I get it filled. They put in a dip tube and replaced the safety release on the valve. Oh, and they slapped a Nitrogen label over the Carbon Dioxide label. All told, I think it was $18 to "convert" it. I still use my Taps-Rite regulator on it. No adpaters required - it's still the same valve. Noticable difference is that the primary side is now at 1200 rather than 800 psig (or thereabouts - memory is hazy and it's been a while since I had to worry about this...) when the tank is freshly filled. Keep in mind that this mix at this pressure in a 20# tank weighs NOWHERE near 20# :-) That's it! - See ya! Pat Babcock in SE Michigan pbabcock at hbd.com Home Brew Digest Janitor janitor@hbd.org HBD Web Site http://hbd.org The Home Brew Page http://hbd.org/pbabcock/ "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..." Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 22:03:29 -0500 From: Peter Owings <peteo1 at mindspring.com> Subject: You say tomato, I say tomacco! All this gm posting and nobody has mentioned the latest "Simpsons". Homer mixes tomato seeds, tobacco seeds, and some nuclear waste and grows some Tomaccos! They're red on the outside and brown on the inside. They taste like dirt but you can't stop eating them. And people say there's nothing good on tv...... Pete Owings Limestone Brewing Ellicott City, Maryland Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 22:31:38 -0500 From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org> Subject: HBD Fund Raiser: AllAdvantage.com Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager... Well, the proof is in the pudding! About 45 of you took us up on the AllAdvantage "viewbar" fundraiser for the HBD server fund. I'm please to announce that, for doing nothing more than I usually do, we have received our first check from AllAdvantage! They now have a Mac bar in Beta, and have programs running in Australia and some of Europe. If you don't mind giving up a small portion of your browser while surfing the net, go to www.alladvantage.com and set etx-293 as your referrer. You'll get paid for surfing the net, and the HBD will get a dime for every hour you spend surfing. For anyone you refer, we receive a nickel. Check out http://hbd.org/alladvantage.html for more info. - See ya! Pat Babcock in SE Michigan pbabcock at hbd.com Home Brew Digest Janitor janitor@hbd.org HBD Web Site http://hbd.org The Home Brew Page http://hbd.org/pbabcock/ "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..." Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 18:16:06 -0900 From: "Alex MacGillivray" <sockeye at worldnet.att.net> Subject: Malt mill Does anyone have an adjustable roller mill that they would like to sell to me? I'd like one that I can motorize, but I'll take a manual one too. Thanks in advance, Alex MacGillivray Brewbeer at usa.net Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 00:54:11 -0500 From: Bob Sheck <bsheck at skantech.net> Subject: RE: Beer diets 2000 I think all you people are full of TRUB! I been walkin this planet for 50+ yrs and I gotta say that all your scientific measurements are for naught- Pull your heads outta the books and look around you- at the other humans- some fat, some thin, some just right. And then look at what they eat! Sure, the fat ones, you most likely to see at the buffet line or Pizza joint, maybe the fast food hole (Please, a DIET soda with that order of BIGGY fries never ceases to amuse). . . But you must remember there is MUCH more to this than a simple caloric measure. Some of us are blessed with a HIGH metablolism and short plumbing- they can't absorb all the fat producing nourishment and are skinny as a rail no matter what they eat (their arteries are probably more of a tell-tale of their health than body mass, BTW). Some of us more unlucky <?> individuals who have extremley Looong plumbing that is very adept at absorbing every molecule of fat producing food. And then there are some of us who eat whatever the hell they want but have also included an unusual amount of fiber and blow all the charts off! We're all different, and we all assimilate substances much differently than any labratory measurements will be able to discern in the foreseeable future. So this ree-dick-you-less thread has absolutley no place in this venue. If you want to continue to beat this dead-horse on this fourum, knock yerselves out: I will just <continue to> hit the delete key. Thankyou Bob Sheck bsheck, me-sheck, abednigo! Greenville, NC email:bsheck at skantech.net or see us at: http://www.skantech.net/bsheck/ (252)830-1833 - ------------- "Madness takes its toll -- Please have exact change!" - ------------- Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 02:34:10 -0800 From: "Brian Dixon" <briandixon at home.com> Subject: Hop loss Anyone other than me kept track of SG points lost to hops in the kettle? I believe the mechanism is simply the fact that wet hops don't drain out completely during the siphoning process and therefore keep wort trapped in them. As an example, I just got through brewing another big Scotch Ale (140-Shilling Wee Heavy) tonight and the OG in the kettle was 1.122 (whew!), but after racking to the primary through my usual Chore Boy, and topping off to 5 gallons, the OG had dropped to 1.103. There were 6 ounces of hops in this batch ... necessary because for a 45 minute boil, the utilization is only about 13% to 14% and I know from experience that you need from 60 to 80 IBUs (calculated) to balance the big malt profile of these beers. Believe me! Even though it sounds high, this rate of hopping will seem "just in balance" and not overhopped at all! Anyway, back to the hop loss. In 5 gallons, the pre-siphon total points was 5*122=610 pts. In the fermenter, I got 5*103=515 pts. That's a total loss of 95 points, or in other words, about 16 points per ounce of hops in the batch. Going a step further, that equates to 2.1 ounces of the 1.122 wort stayed in each 1 ounce of hops. Seems about right I guess. I guess the moral of the story is that if you want to hit a particular OG in the fermenter, then you ought to estimate the lost specific gravity due to wet hops hanging on to the wort when you siphon. Am I the only person to figure this stuff out? I hate giving up hard-earned points to the hop slop! Brian Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 03:23:19 -0800 From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com Subject: re: Feelings on early racking Calvin says: >My usual procedure was to brew an all-grain batch after work, Then Darren wonders: >Wow!!! Its a strictly saturday job for me. I couldnt even >imagine starting an all grain when i arrive home from work! Must be that Darren has a M-F 8 hour first shift job and that Calvin is fortunate enough to have a night shift job. Ahh the beauty of night shift. I work a 12 hour night shift and get home from work around 8:00am. I don't brew during the middle of my work week but I've often brewed a batch on when I get home from my final night shift. It makes for a long day, but it's not too bad and if I leave the clean-up till the next day I can even sneak in a nap before the wife gets home from work. John Schnupp, N3CNL Dirty Laundry Brewery (temporarily closed) Colchester, VT (moving to Georgia, VT) 95 XLH 1200 Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 07:58:29 EST From: KMacneal at aol.com Subject: Re: Inconsistent carbonation In my experience, the only thing I can agree with Mr. Burley on is that it sounds tedious and the priming sugar should be boiled in water before adding to the beer. I've been bottling using a priming bucket for years and have not encountered inconsistent priming or problems associated with oxidation (and many of these beers have been judged in competition). My dispersion of the priming solution appears to be sufficient -- I add the priming solution to the bucket and siphon the beer on top of it. Occasionally I'll give the bucket a swirl after all the beer is in. I will gently with a spoon when I am splitting a batch between mini kegs and bottles (mini kegs require less priming sugar -- after filling 2 kegs I add additional priming sugar solution and stir gently). I would suggest to Chris that he check the cleaniness & sanitation of his bottles. If some are gushers and others are not well carbonated, it may be that some bottles were contaminated and the batch as a whole had not been given sufficient time to carbonate. Keith MacNeal Worcester, MA In a message dated Wed, 5 Jan 2000 14:45:50 -0500, Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com> writes: Brewsters: Chris has experienced inconsistent carbonation using a bottling bucket. I suggest you make up your priming sugar solution in a cup of boiling solution ( not a cup of water). I uise a pyrex measuring cup , put in the sugar, add water and boil. A teaspoon of this in each bottle will give you 48 bottles properly primed. It will also take less time than a bottling bucket. It may sound tedious, but it works well and is fast. Takes me a couple of minutes. Bottle directly from the carboy. A bottling bucket improperly stirred will give this problem of inconsistency. It is also something else to clean and sanitize and if your beer is flat, you can incorporate a lot of oxygen as you transfer your beer into it and especially if you stir well, as you must. >> Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 08:03:36 -0600 From: "Kelly" <kgrigg at diamonddata.com> Subject: RE: CO2 Shipping.... Why not just stick it in your car? We carry ours around like this all the time to each others house when their tanks are out.... Kelly You said: - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- -Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 14:47:28 -0500 -From: "Santerre, Peter (PRS) - CPC" <PRS at NA2.US.ML.COM> -Subject: Co2, Gravity, Flames -Co2 Shipping: -I have a 5# Co2 cylinder that I use for my corny keg set up. -Well moving time has come (from a small studio apartment to -a 3 bedroom 2 bath house, I'm quite excited.) My dilemma is how -to get my Co2 Cylinder to the new location. The moving company -says they wont move it, and I /don't think/ I'm supposed to -ship it via UPS or whatever. Does anyone have any experience -or suggestions on this subject? Return to table of contents
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